TEAM MEMBER ON BOARD???

B

bobcatbess

Guest
THERES ALOT OF PEOPLE MAD ABOUT ALL THE LE PERMITS THE MAJOR OUTFITTER/OUTFITTERS ARE GETTING EACH YEAR!!!

ALOT OF MM MEMBERS HAVE LABLED THEM AS PERMIT PIMPS,TAG WHORES & ETC!!!

THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR TAKES ITS TOLL,AGAIN & AGAIN!!!

EACH YEAR MORE & MORE PERMITS!!!

NOW WE HAVE A GUIDE FROM A MAJOR OUTFITTER WANTING IN ON THE ELK BOARD!!!

HOW DO YOU BOYS & GIRLS FEEL ABOUT THAT???

IF THAT AIN'T A CONFLICT OF INTREST I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE!!!

I GUESS HE WANTS IN ON THE DEER BOARD TOO???

THE DEER HERD IS ALREADY SCREWED UP SO I SAY LET HIM GIT-R-DONE ON THE DEER!!!

JUST WONDERING HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THE CONFLICT OF INTREST IS O.K. ON THE ELK???

HE CLAIMS HE WANTS MORE OPPORTUNITY???

LIKE THERE HASN'T BEEN MORE OFFERED THE LAST FEW YEARS???

SHOULD WE REALLY LET BIG BUSINESSMEN CONTROL OUR LE ELK HERDS/UNITS???

TRYING TO KEEP THIS AS CLEAN AS POSSIBLE & PLEASE NO F-BOMBS!!!









469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 07:17AM (MST)[p]Not meaning to fluff anyone's feathers here, i like the heck out of everyone on this site. I see, understand and am open to ideas from all sides....but i am kinda lost with one question here.

"How does upping LE tags "personally" help PRO out?"

He doesn't "own" mossback, he simply guides for them like the other 49 employee's of that company. Is he going to lobby just for Doyle....i say "no", that would be Doyles job, not PRO's.

An outfitter will get clients no matter how many tags are out there and PRO will have a job no matter what, nor does he care how Doyle lines up the tags. If you want to blame someone, blame the clients who are lined up three years out to pay in excess of 20K for these tags, DUE to the extreme quality of our animals, again...no matter WHERE or HOW they are obtained. Pro doesn't set the price of the tags, nor the quantity of them. He's simply summoned every fall to do a job and make his clients happy and that's exactly what he does. He also does it for the love and passion, not for the money. Guides don't make ##### for wages, i can assure you that. We simply love what we do and in most cases...would be happy to do it for free.
Look how many "wanna be" guides there are out there that LOVE taking someone out to help kill an LE buck or bull?
We are just like that, only we have an official title and the honor that goes along with it.

I too, like PRO, work for a major outfitter. But we do private lands hunts only. Are we lobbying for more CWMU permits?
Hell no we're not going after more permits, that would put us out of business for sure!
Granted, CWMU's are more tightly controlled, but the number of tags are still what fuels our business. It's NOT our bread & butter...the COST of these tags is our bread & butter, and the clients out there lined up to pay whatever it costs to hunt there. "Supply & demand", plain and simple.
If we have 20 tags, it's X amont of dollars, if we lose some tags, the price goes up and the butter stays just as thick or thin on the bread.

No, i'm not bashing the hunters either, they want a hunt of a lifetime and that's what we give them because that's what this state offers with our excellent hunting here, be it private lands or an open area LE.

I'm simply saying don't blame PRO, he's not making sh*t for wages from guiding. His job last's one month and at peanut wages, so why would he lobby for more tags for personal reasons, he's still only going to do about 4-5 hunts due to his "real job"....i don't understand the personal attacks?








Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Your worrying way to much about this Bess. The elk tags have seen a huge increase over the last couple years. From what I am seeing it hasn't hurt a thing. There is plenty of quality left in every le elk unit in the state.
 
I'm with you on this one Bessy! We don't need a lot of the things that are being pushed. I want to draw an LE tag just as much as you. But, I don't want to draw a tag, after seeing all these monster bulls we have, and go try to kill a 3-4 year old bull. It's pretty much a OIL tag. So why the freak would I want to go after a little bull? There's no need for this I400 crap! It doesn't create any more opportunity, just kills more bulls than we really need to. It doesn't make much sense to me! Go BESSY!


Elk
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 10:45AM (MST)[p]there still is quality and YES maybe an increase to the tag numbers would be a good idea, but a very small increase. a certain MM member would like us all to believe that adding hundreds of tags would solve the problem and keep the same management plan and quality of animals that we have now.

to answer bobcats question, i do belive that there is a HUGE conflict of interest here. how do we know that pro's intentions are for the good of the hunter and the animal and not just for his master doyle? how do we know that he's just some doyle's Beeotch???





the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot
 
Where can we get the specifics on this I400 thing...
It seems to smell and I'd like to see why...
As long as what we have is working, and they can slowly increase permits, why screw with it.
Why wait for years and years to be able to hunt 3-4 year old bulls? If people are willing to play the waiting game, for years and years, why not let them enjoy their moment when it finally comes!!!
 
I have no dog in this fight. I don't live in Utah, haven't hunted there in 25 years and never plan to do so again.

The point I would make here is that most guide/outfitters spend WAY more time among the herds, deer or elk, than all the biologists put together. It seems like good policy to make use of that knowledge.

As far as conflict of interest goes, there are only so many hunt days and a guide is only able to take X number of clients. The percentage won't change....so who cares?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 09:05AM (MST)[p]

I'd much rather see an outfitter or guide on the board than some tree hugging hippie like we get out here in Cali..
Especially someone from an outfit that prides itself on taking huge bulls.
HH
 
Pro on the Elk Committee, Ya Right!
I also bet Brittney Spears will get mother of the year and Al Gore will win a Nobel Prize.

O.K it's possible. Which group do you represent Pro? I know your not on the RAC or Wildlife Board so it must be one of the Sportsmans Groups.
 
>I have no dog in this
>fight. I don't live in
>Utah, haven't hunted there in
>25 years and never plan
>to do so again.
>
> The point I would make
>here is that most guide/outfitters
>spend WAY more time among
>the herds, deer or elk,
>than all the biologists put
>together. It seems like good
>policy to make use of
>that knowledge.


Good point, I also live out of state. Looking from the outside in. I would have to say get as much knowledge as possible from who ever has it. Even if it is a guide, remember it is only 1 voice from many, not the dictator. Use that knowledge to "tweak" your already proven system and make changes slowly to allow correction of a possible mistake.

Mntman
 
Is this a joke? No way are you guys serious. I don't even know where to start on this assine thread, but I'll try.

1)First, as I have mentioned BEFORE, I am employed at one of the utility companies here in Utah, the same one that ChlorideRus works for. I only guide ONE month out of the year. I have been booked up for every day for 10+ years for the days I am able to get off of my 'real' job. Nothing I have proposed would change that, NOTHING!

2)I WILL be on these committees as the representive for UBA, a 'special interest' archery group(the largest in Utah). I fail to see how Doyle would benefit from what I have been pushing. Why would he want to have the rifle hunt moved out of the rut? How many of HIS clients would want that? That is nonsensical. If anything, this should show I am NOT his "beotch". How childish and retarded!

3)Antlerick and any/all others who would like the specifics of I400, feel free to shoot me an e-mail or PM and I will give you the 'dirty' details. I will say that when someone pipes off false info on this it shows their lack of credibility. I am talking about the alledged 3-4 year old bulls on these pilot units. W/o going into too much detail, the harvest age objectives for these units will STAY exactly where they are now!

4)You people really need to get a life. Bobcat started TWO new threads that were nuked last night, that were personal attacks on me. While I had NOTHING to do with them getting nuked, I almost wish they had been left up like this retarded thread, it shows how ignorant and blinded by stupidity some folks on here are! I suppose I should be flattered that so many people are concerned about little ol' me. But really, is that all you guys have too worry about?

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]I have not said i am for or against I400, i missed the meeting and haven't even seen the guts of the proposition lined out yet, but what i do know is its about some very simple math that has got to be done at some point.

An area can only hold a certain amount of elk period, doesn't matter about the sex. If you aren't skimming the top off the herds and continue to let the bottom build up, "the cup runneth over".
You take too many bulls...you end up with too many cows. you take too many cows, you have too many bulls. It's about finding that "common" that works for a strong, balanced and healthy herd combination, plain and simple. Finding that balance is the key, i do know that much, it's a no brainer...but just letting the herds grow like they are will eventually be detrimental in many aspects.
Most of our units are either already full, or reaching their capacity on what they can hold of animals. Not just elk, but cattle, sheep and deer. Again...it's finding that balance.

Here's a simple minded example-
When the waitress is topping off the coffee in your cup and it's spilling over the sides....do you just let it spill till it lands in your lap and burns you?
No, you start drinking up and negotiate a "happy medium" to keep the cup at or near full...yet warm & fresh.
Your happy with your coffee, and she's got a job.








Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Bowhunters are in the minority (I bowhunt fwiw). The rifle tags are the big money tickets and always will be. Ultimately $$ makes the decisions. SFW dominates the political scheme of the hunting policies being created in UT. Whether I agree with PRO or not...the unfortunate reality is that his chances to sway the regulations as an "outside" voice without $$$ backing is probably less then the odds of me pulling a Phavant Elk tag next year.

Again whether I agree with PRO or not...at least he is making an effort for what he believes and trying to get some changes.

You don't like what you hear...then form your own "voice" and do something about it....go to the RAC meetings....form your our foundation....get involved....write a letter...send an email....do something....
 
>Bowhunters are in the minority (I
>bowhunt fwiw). The rifle
>tags are the big money
>tickets and always will be.
> Ultimately $$ makes the
>decisions. SFW dominates the
>political scheme of the hunting
>policies being created in UT.
> Whether I agree with
>PRO or not...the unfortunate reality
>is that his chances to
>sway the regulations as an
>"outside" voice without $$$ backing
>is probably less then the
>odds of me pulling a
>Phavant Elk tag next year.
>
>
>Again whether I agree with PRO
>or not...at least he is
>making an effort for what
>he believes and trying to
>get some changes.
>
>You don't like what you hear...then
>form your own "voice" and
>do something about it....go to
>the RAC meetings....form your our
>foundation....get involved....write a letter...send an
>email....do something....

Great post. I/we have met with SFW and other groups, and we have got great responses from them. I/we have met with the DWR MANY times as well. I have talked with game managers in several surrounding states, biologists from same states. I/we have done alot of research and have met with MANY 'experts' on this stuff. I/we will continue to look for ways to improve hunting in Utah for ALL hunters, not just the loudmouths on this forum. This I400 stuff is NOT being pushed/sponsored by UBA or ANY conservation group. This a grouop of sportsmen that have seen where we believe changes can/should be made, and we are doing SOMETHING about it. Sit on your collective behinds and do NOTHING but attack those who are doing SOMETHING, if that makes you feel good about yourselves. I can take the heat.

PRO
 
>I also bet Brittney Spears will get mother of the year
>and Al Gore will win a Nobel Prize.

Antler1,

I hope you're not a Prophet, because Al Gore just won the Nobel Peace Prize and if Brittney gets mother of the year, does this mean the whole world is coming to an end and we won't have to worry about I400 or hunting at all?

Just adding a little humor to this thread.
 
Bobcat has nothing better to do in his pathetic life than start BS threads. I hope they turn your power off so you can't run your computer Bessy girl. Go pick up some cans and keep your pie hole shut. I'm voting Pro in.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 10:26AM (MST)[p]WOW!!! What have I missed. I am going to jump in, simply because the two people I have been most critical of on MM seem to be having a p****ng match.
With that said:
1. I support PRO's endeavor to gain a spot on the elk board. I do not believe there is a sportsman in the state that has spent more time and effort researching, learning and gathering information on elk management and hunt strategies in Utah the last year+ than PRO. He has taken the time to talk with as many sportsman as possible via sport shows, phone, e-mail etc. He has held and attended numerous meetings to offer information and listen to the peoples voice. He has continually hung his head out for the blowhards to take a whack at. Yet has maintained focus on what he seen as an issue and then put forth effort effort to make a difference. Utah would be very fortunate if all members of the RAC's, WB and elk committe came to the table as prepared as PRO is. Now does he have an agenda he sure does, I400, but I can assure you it does not stem from any loyalties to anyone other than himself and his children and the future. How do I know I took the time to attend a meeting PRO organized, I have followed and communicated thoughts of and about I400 closely.
I400 will not be decided by the elk committee, however the future of elk management in Utah will be and there is not any sportsman more qualifeid than PRO to be sitting on the board.
2. Lastly, If you believe for a minute the board is not already stacked with Guide, Trophy Hunters and the likes you need to wake up and get involved with UTAH Wildlife Politics.
3. Although I have gained respect for BESSY and communicated with him behind the scenes. I wonder when he will step up to the plate as PRO has. SHOW UP and start defending your passion/obsession to kill a HUGE Bull other than being a blowhard on MM. BESSY you have the same opportunity to make a difference. Become the counterpoint on the elk board if you are worried about the loss of the chance to shoot a stinky bull.

As for my soap box: I can't believe how short sighted and selfish the hunters of Utah are being. We better do something to curb the selfish desires of a 400" bulls before our elk herds crash. The legacy of this Utah sportsman and DWR generation will be the decline of a hunting heritage and elk herd in order to rewrite the record books.

Travis Sparks
 
Thank you Travis. I appreciate your words. You do realize the attacks may come your way now. Thanks fo rbeing a stand up guy who has more than done his part to help ALL hunters in Utha over many years of service.

PRO
 
Im voten Pro in too. As a NV'n we get to hunt our bulls in Nov and Dec. with rifle. That is the respectful way to hunt them big beautiful monsters. I cant see how gunning one down in the middle of the rut is even close to being right. We are talking about HUNTING here arent we? Can you imagine what changing the dates to late Oct or Nov would do for UTs elk!!! Not only give more hunters opportunity but heck I bet you would see some UT bulls looken like those crazy ranch bulls before long. Oh and make it a HUNT to boot.
Bessy you better go back on your pills. Also it sounds like you think shooting a compound bow and killing a monster bull is a slam dunk sport. I just spent 21 days chasing 380+ bulls around and couldnt close the deal. I did kill a 350 bull on the last day and am proud a hell after all I went thru on my HUNT.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]Travis,
Too late.... Some herds are already crashing... Due to large permit increases. With this I400, and some of the pilot units listed, will ultimately spell the demise of some of these units. There are already too many tags issued on some of them. I want to be albe to shoot a "BIG" bull, not one I have to "settle" for. And no, this isn't an attack on you at all Travis. Just a comment back.

Elk
 
Having a guide on those boards may be good for balance. Those committees need to be well rounded so it may be good. I seriously doubt that one guy on there will ruin elk and deer herds in the state of Utah singlehandedly (not that I think PRO would..that's not what I mean). The whole board makes a collective decision on issues....one guy w/bad ideas will either be ignored, outvoted or run off. I'm not too worried about it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 10:56AM (MST)[p]pro,
i kow you can 2-step. i know you can Samba. but PLEASE! PLEASE!!! don't dance around this any more. answer my question! i ask it with NO disrespect! how do you know what the sucess rates on these units will be if the tags are increased to the numbers you stated earlier on the other thread???




the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot
 
Elk,

Show me a herd that has crashed. A crash is the decline in overall population, not just trophy bulls. Unless you are referring to the fishlake cow elk fiasco. The cows were harvested to allow an increase in bulls for the trophy hunters. In order to allow for an extreme harvest of older age class bulls you must have high to bull cow ratios. High bull (designed for older age class) to cow ratios is an ineffective managment scheme for long term viability.
It is a sad situation that so many of Utah come lately elk hunters do not have enough confidence in their ability to harvest trophy elk that they support a managment scenario such as we now have. I hate to break it to you but killing a big elk in Utah is like fishing in a barrel. Big/record book bulls are killled in elk states every year, by the hunters who have the skills to do such. Big/record bulls are exploited in Utah not by elk hunters, but by folks lucky enough to draw or afford a tag.
I hope you, BOBCAT and others draw your tags and kill your big bulls and have your fifteen minutes of fame. At least then your grandkids can ask about your mount and you can tell them about elk hunting as they more than likely will never experience it unless Utah's focus for elk management and trophy dollars change.

Elkster, you have the chance to shoot a big bull as long as we have elk. Although you may beleive all LE units in Utah are protected they are not. The N Cache Unit is managed as 3-4 yr old bulls, has a spike hunt, and borders Idaho. This herd of elk is hunted from Aug 24 to October 25th each year. Utah hunts with firearms for a month pushing many of the elk into Idaho. As soon as Utah stops Idaho opens an unlimited bull hunt and spends eleven days hunting the bulls. If a herd was going to crash for trophy bulls this would be the unit. However, each year a decent percentage of trophy bulls are harvested by Utah and Idaho hunters. The amazing thing is it only takes 10 points to draw or the price of an Idaho tag. You see, Elkster you have the chance to hunt trophy bulls, the question is are you willing to risk your points or money on a unit that does not recieve the hype of a guarantted big bull. Otherwise do you want to hunt a big bull or fish in a barrel. By the way it should not be too hard my 15 year old daughter killed a big stinky on the N Cache last year, I guess you should be able to do it.


Travis Sparks
 
deserteagle500, we have looked at success rates from EVERY state in the west, we have used common sense that says the bulls will be less vulnerable when the hunt is not going full-bore and they are still in the high country, we are also wanting to give higher percentages of the tags to primitive hunters which enjoy much LOWER success rates already. A mature bull is most vulnerable during two times of the year, the rut and while on winter range. To have a rifle hunter during either time raises the success rates to absurd numbers(anything over 85% IMHO).

PRO
 
pro,

Was that so hard to identify your motives? You have now stated you are with UBA and are going to represent them on the Elk Committee. I have no gripe with your motives, however, like many have mentioned you are one voice of many. I guess the majority will decide what is best. If you and UBA feel slighted then speak your piece. However, I doubt you will get very far by trying to strong arm people and telling them their method of hunting is cheating. How could you ever convince anyone of anything when you put them on the defensive right out of the gate?

I also do not see the problem with me saying you supposedly guide the richest folks out there. You have never identified what your role is so how is anyone supposed to know where you are coming from? I personally think that is important to know if you are going to sit on a panel of people trying to make the best decisions regarding public land elk.

You need to step back and look at some of the things you say pro. You say some people have resorted to childish comments. You are referring to people with a opinion different from your's as retards, childish, malcontents, loudmouths, and so forth is childish name calling. I must have struck a cord with you, but never did I start throwing out simple name calling.

If you have a personal problem with me pro you can save the mud slinging and take it up with me on a personal level. I am merely speaking my piece on behalf of those who supported my stance 2 years ago when age objectives were changed. If you cannot see that most people are going to disagree with you then this Elk Committee process is going to be a long row to hoe.

I am done with this topic. I have better things to do than re-hash this out over and over and over.
 
Elster, using your fuzzy math, how would I 400 not increase opportunity? How is changing some dates and weapons on some hunts helping PRO? The unit he's guiding on would not be changed.
 
Thanks MP.

I know we too have butted heads, but my intentions are not to be an enemy to anyone. I want what is best also, I just fear change. Maybe there is a better way? I have heard some great arguments for change, but I still fear it! :)
 
ktc wrote-

"I know we too have butted heads, but my intentions are not to be an enemy to anyone. I want what is best also, I just fear change. Maybe there is a better way? I have heard some great arguments for change, but I still fear it!"



This is the best reply to this post i have seen yet!!!:)







Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]Deerlove,

In my fuzzy math...... It doesn't create more opportunity because you still have to wait so long to draw a tag.... As I stated it's pretty much a OIL tag. So you're still going to have the 10+ years of waiting to draw, plus the 5 year waiting period to start putting back in. True there will be more tags available. But, you still have to wait.... That's where I'm getting my fuzzy math from...

Elk
 
Well said TY. Finally someone that can reply with class and some REASON to what they say, unlike some "cats" that all they can do is whine and cry and scream in "all caps".

I am not taking sides here. I have deen good things from Pro, KTC and others. I think Ty hit it right on the head "change is scary" and I agree. I think it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Lets just have good conversation about it and quit with the THIRD GRADE antics!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!
 
This is exactly why somethings don't get passed. Even though they may or may not benefit the herd. All this arguing and PUSHING reallys gets to everyone. We all need to work together to find a compromise and do what is best for hunters and for wildlife as a whole.

I too am done with this post. No need to carry on with something that has been ran through the ringer time and time again.

Elk
 
Okay, I was reprimended by enough folks thru PM's and e-mails that I realize I at times go over the top, my bad.

I get carried away on issues I feel strongly about, and let my emotions get away from me. I will work on that, no promises though!

I will however continue to response in ernst to attacks on my character and/or motives. I will just try and handle it better than I did this time. I like ktc and see him as one of the better guys on this forum, so Ty I publically apologize for getting personal with you on a public forum, there is no call for such action from me. I hold no ill will toward you.

As I/we move forward with this proposal, I/we will update on here the FACTS behind the proposal for any who are curious or want to be kept up to date.

PRO
 
pro.
thanks for answering my question. its still in confusing to me but i do appreciate your response. is there somewhere i can look or read that might help a stupid fellow out like me on this topic?







the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 12:58PM (MST)[p]What about the 3 Corners unit? October hunt dates, 100% success. I400 is based on lowering the success rates. If the success rates do not fall then I400 CAN NOT provide the additional tags. I have been moose hunting for the past week and I have seen more MATURE elk bulls in that time than in the month prior. Any spike hunters out there run into mature bulls? HAHA Moving the hunt out of September might lower the rifle success slightly and it probably will increase the archery success. A wash between the statistics.

I say we add the Dutton to I-400 as a trial unit. Then we can know what will happen to units without spike tags.

(Easy KTC that wasn't meant for you).haha

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
deserteagle, feel free to shoot me a PM and I will go into more detail on this stuff with you.

Packout, we have gone over this MANY times, I am trying to be nicer, so I won't respond like I want to. You KNOW the answers I have given YOU before, no need to rehash old nonsense. I will say cherry-picking ONE unit that has valid reasons for the SR there, is not giving a true account of the situation.

I400 while have five units w/o spike tags, so no need to mess with one of the premium units.

PRO
 
Sorry, but you never did answer the question. I recall you saying that you would look into 3 Corners, but never responding. It is not cherry picking in any sense. 3 Corners is the only unit in Utah which has an October hunt date. The unit runs a higher success rate than most September hunt units. It is a valid question that may contain some insight to I400 success rates.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
Real quick, it was NOT 100% in 2006, it was 37 out of 38, you were way off(LOL). One is escapement issues, another is accessabilty. That is why we have chosen the units we have, units that have high escapment and/or low access.

I have gotten several requests for more I400 info, I will post a detailed updated post on I400 as it stands now. I am busy tonight, so I will get it out tomorrow after another meeting on this stuff.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 06:48?PM (MST)

MulePacker well said!!!


Bess I agree with 99% of what you say;
But I will disagree with you on this issue. Pro is a stand up guy. He is not one of mossbacks beotches. He is on the side of Joe public. He doesn't have any thing to gain by his elk issues he proposes. He has 10 archery points and will draw his tag in the next two years. He than will be out of the draw like the rest that drew a tag.

Pro likes to hunt big bulls as much as the rest of everyone on this site. He has found a way to do it every year and get paid money. He doesn't make a lot of money doing it but it must be worth something or he wouldn't do it at all.

If every thing that pro proposes was bad it would hurt his occupation on guiding elk. This would not be very smart because he would be out of a job.

I would vote for pro anytime and honestly believe there is not a conflict of interest on this one.
 
WELL Scott!!!

YOU HURRIED & EDITED YOUR POST!!!

BUT I SAW IT BEFORE YOU EDITED IT!!!

SHOW ME WHERE I CALLED Pro ONE OF DOYLES BEOTCHES???

UP ON POST #1!!!

slam-bobcat-dunk MENTIONS HE'S NOT BITTCHING FOR MORE TAGS IN HIS NECK OF THE WOODS CUZZ IT WOULD PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS!!!

HE'S USING THAT ROUND THANG ATOP HIS HEAD!!!

I WISHED MORE PEOPLE AROUND HERE COULD SEE THE LIGHT TOO!!!

I DON'T CARE WHAT Pro OR ANYBODYELSE AROUND HERE MAKES GUIDING!!!

AS LONG AS ALL OF YOU HONEST TOP OF THE LINE GUIDES ARE CLAIMING ALL YOUR TIPS AT THE END OF THE YEAR I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS HOW LITTLE YOU CLAIM YOU ALL MAKE!!!

'Pro'???

I SEEN THE DEER HERD HERE IN UTAH GO TO HELL!!!

WERE YOU AROUND & DID YOU SEE IT???

I'D SURE HATE TO SEE THE TROPHY LE UNITS TAKE THE SAME HIT!!!

AND I QUOTE:"Pro LIKES TO HUNT BIG BULLS AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE"!!!

WELL IT DIDN'T COME OUT OF Pro'S MOUTH BUT I HOPE ITS THE TRUTH!!!

I JUST GOT OFF THE MOUNTAIN,HELPED PACK A PISSCUTTER OUT OF A HELL-HOLE,TOOK MOST OF THE DAY OFF JUST TO HELP A FRIEND OUT!!!

I WISHED I COULD OF SIT HERE AND ARGUED ON THE PUTER ALL FRICKEN DAY LIKE SOME OF YOU DID BUT I HAD BETTER THINGS TO DO!!!

YOU OPPORTUNISTS DON'T IMPRESS ME AT ALL!!!

IF YOU'RE HAPPY WITH A PISSCUTTER GIT-R-DONE ON A GENERAL UNIT,YOU DON'T NEED AN LE PERMIT OR ANYMORE OPPORTUNITY,ALL THE OPPORTUNITY IN THE WORLD IS WAITING FOR YOU EVERY YEAR AS LONG AS YOUR HAPPY WITH A PISSCUTTER!!!

ONE MORE QUESTION Pro???

IF THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANY LE UNITS SET UP SEVERAL YEARS AGO,WHERE WOULD THE TEAM BE TODAY???







469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
>WELL Scott!!!
>
>YOU HURRIED & EDITED YOUR POST!!!
>
>
>BUT I SAW IT BEFORE YOU
>EDITED IT!!!
>
>SHOW ME WHERE I CALLED Pro
>ONE OF DOYLES BEOTCHES???
>
>UP ON POST #1!!!
>
>slam-bobcat-dunk MENTIONS HE'S NOT BITTCHING FOR
>MORE TAGS IN HIS NECK
>OF THE WOODS CUZZ IT
>WOULD PUT THEM OUT OF
>BUSINESS!!!
>
>HE'S USING THAT ROUND THANG ATOP
>HIS HEAD!!!
>
>I WISHED MORE PEOPLE AROUND HERE
>COULD SEE THE LIGHT TOO!!!
>
>
>I DON'T CARE WHAT Pro OR
>ANYBODYELSE AROUND HERE MAKES GUIDING!!!
>
>
>AS LONG AS ALL OF YOU
>HONEST TOP OF THE LINE
>GUIDES ARE CLAIMING ALL YOUR
>TIPS AT THE END OF
>THE YEAR I DON'T GIVE
>A RATS ASS HOW LITTLE
>YOU CLAIM YOU ALL MAKE!!!
>
>
>'Pro'???
>
>I SEEN THE DEER HERD HERE
>IN UTAH GO TO HELL!!!
>
>
>WERE YOU AROUND & DID YOU
>SEE IT???
>
>I'D SURE HATE TO SEE THE
>TROPHY LE UNITS TAKE THE
>SAME HIT!!!
>
>AND I QUOTE:"Pro LIKES TO HUNT
>BIG BULLS AS MUCH AS
>EVERYONE ELSE"!!!
>
>WELL IT DIDN'T COME OUT OF
>Pro'S MOUTH BUT I HOPE
>ITS THE TRUTH!!!
>
>I JUST GOT OFF THE MOUNTAIN,HELPED
>PACK A PISSCUTTER OUT OF
>A HELL-HOLE,TOOK MOST OF THE
>DAY OFF JUST TO HELP
>A FRIEND OUT!!!
>
>I WISHED I COULD OF SIT
>HERE AND ARGUED ON THE
>PUTER ALL FRICKEN DAY LIKE
>SOME OF YOU DID BUT
>I HAD BETTER THINGS TO
>DO!!!
>
>YOU OPPORTUNISTS DON'T IMPRESS ME AT
>ALL!!!
>
>IF YOU'RE HAPPY WITH A PISSCUTTER
>GIT-R-DONE ON A GENERAL UNIT,YOU
>DON'T NEED AN LE PERMIT
>OR ANYMORE OPPORTUNITY,ALL THE OPPORTUNITY
>IN THE WORLD IS WAITING
>FOR YOU EVERY YEAR AS
>LONG AS YOUR HAPPY WITH
>A PISSCUTTER!!!
>
>ONE MORE QUESTION Pro???
>
>IF THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANY
>LE UNITS SET UP SEVERAL
>YEARS AGO,WHERE WOULD THE TEAM
>BE TODAY???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT
>OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS
>IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN
>BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING
>TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!



on ebay
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 08:32PM (MST)[p]i shall admit that it was i that called pro "one of doyle's beotches". can't blame it all the bess












the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot
 
I hope everyone attends the next RAC and voices there opposition to I400. If you want to see 5 unit ruined and the loss of many over the counter elk tags, Then stay home and do nothing. If you like to see big stinkys on the mountain and have the opprotunity to put meat in the freezer every year with a nice fat spike you better show up.
 
Yep,I will back PRO on this one and I agree with ktc. Change is hard and when you're talking about something that you really care about it's even harder. I have talked with PRO several times and even if I didn't agree with him on this issue (which I do) I would have to say that he has put in the time and tapped the resources to be a definitive voice for "Joe public" as a member of any board. I respect an oppinion that has done the leg work like PRO has. It's completely assinine to associate PRO's guiding for any outfitter with his attempts to make things better for Utah's elk herd. I don't know anybody that get's heavily involved with something like this that doesn't have a personal agenda. I don't know why you would if you didn't. Personal wants and needs is what fuels passion, and passion is exactly what we need on these types of committees. Give 'er hell PRO!


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
elkantlers,

Perfect advice. Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, voice your opinion and contact your sportsman group. I encourage people to speak up on how they feel.
 
SO TELL ME Jim???

HAVE YOU NOTICED THERE HAS BEEN MORE OPPORTUNITY ADDED THE LAST FEW YEARS???

HOW MUCH FRICKEN OPPORTUNITY DO YOU BOYS WANT???

IF THE LE UNITS TAKE A FALL Jim,WOULD IT EFFECT BUSINESS???

PEOPLE AIN'T GONNA PAY YOU BOYS BIG MONEY FOR PISSCUTTER QUALITY,THEY MIGHT PAY YOU BUT IT AIN'T GONNA BE WHAT YOU'RE USED TO!!!

CAN YOU BOYS EVEN SEE THESE TROPHY UNITS ARE NON-REPLACEABLE???

YES WE HAVE SOMETHING IN UTAH THAT IS PRETTY MUCH BETTER THAN ANYWHERE ELSE!!!

DO YOU WANT TO KEEP IT THAT WAY???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
The state, anyone of them,and the hunters of the states, do not owe outfitters a living! Plain and simple. The game belongs to that particular state, and primarily its residents. Not some guide or client with bottomless pockets.
 
I don't disagree with you there bessy. All I'm saying is that there is no reason to single out PRO for wanting to make changes and doing the leg work. You can't fault a man for going after what he believes in if he's willing to do the work. If the elk unit's were to fall, especially the Wasatch unit, it would definately affect business. I just don't see that happening with this unit (or any of the other proposed units). You and I have emailed back and forth and I know that you're a family man. I don't care if I ever kill a 400 inch bull in my lifetime but I do care if my kids ever get to experience the thrill of a great elk hunt. I think that PRO would be an asset to the elk board not a problem.

We do have some of the best elk hunting in the world right now and I want to see that continue on places like the Pahvaunt, Dutton, SanJuan, etc. It just gives others an opportunity to hunt lesser bulls if they choose. I believe there will always be 400 inch bulls on the Wasatch, but right now there are a ton of 320-340 class bulls that most people would love to shoot if they had a chance.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I would love to see a 400 class bull on the hoof and not in just pictures. Ive seen 2 320-350 bulls here in oregon. Ive been putting in for a unit for 10 years trying to just get a shot at one of these so called "pisscutters". I hunt for the sport and enjoy the outdoors with my family. It seems everyone is wrapped up in killing HUGE bulls. Any Elk that I or my family kills is a trophy to me. Money Rules Everything. I believe herds should be managed for the sake of still having ELK when we all grow old and pass on the great sport of HUNTING to generations to come....
 
HEY Jim!!!

YOU KNOW WE SEE EYE TO EYE ON MOST POINT OF VIEWS & I KNOW YOU'RE A FRIEND OF MINE FOREVER!!!

I AGREE THERES A TON OF 320-340 BULLS AROUND THAT MOST EVERY TARD IN THE STATE WOULD LOVE TO SHOOT!!!

BUT HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED HOW MANY 320-340 BULLS IT TAKES IN THE FIELD FOR A FEW TO GET 380+ OR EVEN A FEW THAT GO 400+???

THEM BIG BASTARDS (380-400+!!!) WERE ONCE UPON A TIME 320-340 BULLS!!!

I'VE SEEN 2 LE UNITS GO DOWN HILL DRASTICALLY WITH POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

I GUESS THE ONE IS ON THE COMEBACK A LITTLE!!!

THE OTHER IS STILL IN PISS POOR SHAPE!!!

I DON'T NEED Pro,BIOLOGISTS OR ANYBODYELSE TELLING ME DIFFERENT,I SPENT TIME ON THE UNIT THIS YEAR & I KNOW WHAT IT IS & WHAT ITS NOT & I KNOW WHAT IT USED TO BE!!!

POOR MANAGEMENT & GREED ALONG WITH A LATE DEPERDATION BULL HUNT ARE THE ONLY FACTORS!!!

I'D SURE AS HELL HATE TO SEE THE REST OF THE LE UNITS MANAGED LIKE THIS ONE HAS BEEN MANAGED!!!

FOR ALL YOU OPPORTUNISTS SCREAMING FOR MORE,MORE,MORE FOR KIDS,YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT PUTTING YOUR KIDS IN FOR THE YOUTH ELK HUNT!!!

ITS A GREAT HUNT,BEEN THERE,DONE THAT!!!

THE VERY BEST PART ABOUT THE YOUTH HUNT THERE WASN'T 10,000 OTHER TARDS AROUND FOULING THE HUNT UP!!!

IT WON'T BE LONG & IF Pro & OTHERS GET THEIR WAYS THERE WILL BE SO DAMN MANY PEOPLE IN THEM LE UNITS IT WON'T BE AS FUN AS IT USED TO BE,MARK MY WORD ON IT!!!

THEY'LL SHOOT THE WHOLE DAMN STATE OUT IF YOU LET EM!!!

I HOPE WE'VE GOT ENOUGH SENSE NOT TO MANAGE UNITS LIKE THE 2 UNITS I MENTIONED ABOVE OR YOU CAN KISS IT GOODBYE!!!





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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Bessy, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the "late hunt". That's the reason the Manti Nebo, Wasatch and one of the units you mentioned have lost some of their trophy status. There were definately a lot more huge bulls killed on that late hunt than on the early hunt. I do think that by eliminating the late hunt and taking away the spike hunt on some of these pilot units it would replace the number of bulls taken if you gave out a few more tags. I'm no biologist and I don't ever claim to "know" what I'm talking about but I generally do pretty good using the W.A.G. (wild arse guess) theory.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-07 AT 11:02PM (MST)[p]WELL Jim!!!

I'M SURE YOU KNOW MORE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE LATE HUNTS THAN ME ON THEM UNITS!!!

THE LATE HUNT I MENTIONED IS A DECEMBER DEPERDATION HUNT!!!

(((EDIT!!!))) "LATE DECEMBER "BULL" DEPERDATION HUNT"!!!

YOU CAN RUIN ANY LE UNIT WITH THESE TACTICS!!!

I DAMN NEAR TURNED A GUY IN A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WHEN HE CAME FLYING UP BEHIND ME WITH A FRESH DECEMBER BULL IN THE BACK OF HIS TRUCK ON THIS LE UNIT!!!

OF ALL THINGS I'VE SEEN THIS TOOK THE CAKE!!!

THEN I GET TO THINKING ABOUT EVERYBODY THAT THINK OUR UDWR BIOLOGISTS ARE GODS FROM ABOVE!!!

SOMEBODY WANNA "SPLAIN" THAT ONE TO ME???

COME ON Pro,YOU SEEM TO KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS,SPLAIN IT TO ME PLEASE???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Pro- any chance in juggling the 5 choosen units to add or trade one of the 5 for the Paungs LE elk so our southern area fellow bow hunters-rifle and muzzy too-- would have a unit closer to them?

The current choosen 5 units seem to represent each Region of our state except the southern....

Robb
 
That is a good question Robb. In fact we have considered adding the Pauns as one of the pilot units. We left it out because it doesn't meet the criteria we set for pilot units. But, per your request, I will bring it up at the next meeting, which ALL who are interested are welcome to attend, even bobcat.

Thanks for the kind words Jim, funny how some claim this would destroy quality, yet you support it even though the unit you run your hunter on is one of the pilot units. Bessy, I am DONE arguing with you on issues you are clueless on. Get some FACTS, then we can talk.

PRO
 
Bess I still agree with 99% of what you post. You are one of my favorite reads also.

I did edit my post I am sorry. I said some things that might be taken the wrong way. I was talking from the heart with a lot of emotion. I some times have to edit my post so I don't come off as an idiot. I should have edited it one more time cause I know you didn't call him a beyotch. Ill I want is for everyone to know pro is not a bad guy. In fact I bet you guys would get along outside of the forum.

As for deer I have seen the opposite I have seen the book cliffs get shot out, then with management get turned around I even saw a 200? buck out there this year and was only their 4 days.
I can't speak for the general units near you but if they are bad it is because Utards will be UTards and can't hold off on the trigger.

As for General units with over the counter buck tags I can only speak for the unit I hunt in. I am on bucks that score over 200? every year. I have seen 8 x10?s, 5x7?s, 9x10?s, 195? typical?s. I killed a 28 1/5? buck this year. I have killed a 4 point or better 4 out of the last 5 years I killed a 3 point with a dropper on the year I didn't get a 4 point. I have been in Eastman?s Bowhunting journal. My friend killed a top 5 deer and was on the front cover of Eastman?s Bowhunting journal. A buddy of mine cousin killed a 36? wide buck the same day I killed my 185? buck. I know everyone saw the picture of the buck that was killed this year that scored close to 230?This unit can be hunted by anyone that wants to purchase a tag. It can be hunted from August to end of November. The deer hunting has been getting better every year. Opportunity can equal success on huge deer.
Archery is a way to give opportunity to anyone without hurting a unit!
 
BESSY I don't understand why you are getting yourself all worked up over this stuff anyways. You know how the system works here. The elk committee, DWR and majority of non-vocal sportsmen can propose whatever the hell they would like.

Plain simple fact 400 inch bulls are worth more than a 330 bull every where in the world and Utah and it's 18,000 conservation / auction tags are no different.

Relax BESS, tell me the last time BIOLOGY actually won out over MONEY and INCHES.

PRO has always been stand up with me and done just what he said ( EXCEPT GET MY MY FREAKING BOWSTRING!!!! ) he would do.
Congrats Bart you'll do a good job.


THE ONLY ww STILL WATCHING THE MAILBOX FOR THE EVER ILLUSIVE BOWSTRING
 
wiley!!!

DOES THIS MEAN BARTRA DOESN'T DO WHAT HE SAYS HE'S GONNA DO???

YOUR FIRST PARAGRAPH IS VERY TRUE ww!!!

DON'T TELL ME I'M CLUELESS BARTRA!!!

LETS TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF LE UNITS THAT WENT TO HELL DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

COME ON BARTRA,TELL ME HOW IT WASN'T THE UDWR'S GREEDY WAYS THAT GOT THE UNITS IN TROUBLE!!!

YOU'RE GOING TO QUIT ARGUEING WITH ME BARTRA,THAT'LL BE A COLD DAY IN HELL!!!

I'VE OFFERED TO TALK ABOUT THE PISS POOR MANAGEMENT THAT TOOK PLACE ON THE LE UNITS BUT YOU WON'T EVEN TOUCH IT & THEN YOU TELL ME I'M CLUELESS!!!

YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING Pro SO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS & LETS TALK ABOUT IT!!!

I'VE NEVER HAD YOU MAD ENOUGH YOU WOULDN'T ARGUE WITH ME!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
BESSY Not so much!!! He is relying on someone else to do what they told him they would do. It ain't his fault, I'll bet once he reads this he'll be in his YUGO on the way to my house to hand deliver that sumbitch in person.

Bartra will tell ya that he works for a utility but he keeps the north west portion of the state free from the unsightly
aluminum containers that you are so farmiliar with.

Like I said BESSY you are all in a tizzy about nothing.
The last elk plan is not even a third of the way through
it's course and the trend is to let these plans run their course.

Aint squat gonna happen with the elk till the DON and KARP
say's it's gonna happen.

THE ONLY ww THAT KNOWS BESSY IS 400 INCH BULL SAFE FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF YEARS
 
WELL wiley!!!

AS LONG AS HE STAYS IN HIS "ALUMINUM CAN" AREA AND DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH MY "ALUMINUM CAN" AREA WE'LL BE O.K. ON THE CANS!!!

TAKES HIM THAT LONG TO GET YOU A BOWSTRING HUH???

400 INCH BULL SAFE HUH???

WHY I'VE BEEN 400 INCH BULL SAFE ALL MY LIFE SO FAR wiley!!!

I'VE SEEN A FEW BUT I JUST AIN'T BEEN OPPORTUNITIST ENOUGH TO DESTROY EVERYTHING JUST SO I COULD GET A TAG!!!

I HELPED PACK A PISSCUTTER OUT wiley,MAN YOU'D OF BEEN PROUD!!!

SO WHO'S GONNA HAVE MORE PULL???

PAYDAY OR BARTRA???

AND BEFORE YOU ALL JUMP ME FOR CALLING DON "PAYDAY",WELL I DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM FACE TO FACE & O.K.ED IT!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
ww!!!

I'M ASKING A FEW QUESTIONS!!!

AM I GETTING ANY ANSWERS???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Gordy, I asked on Saturday and was told you were sent the last Bowstring, if this is not true, let me know and I will deliver one to you MYSELF! I have no tolerance for this, and I WILL make it right, one way or another! I suppose I will run into you at the RAC's, I will have a couple of strings in tow!

PRO
 
Spoken like a true politician. If it talks like a duck and walks like a duck, its a duck.

Coming from someone who will never hunt Utah since every family member can keep drawing from 80yo grandmas returnrd tag, I can only say there are many things in Utah that needs to be fixed.

As for you PRO I can only go by reading the countless debates you have had when there is another view aside from yours. How can you represent others when you refuse to listen or even attemp to rationalize views other than yours?
 

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