Received a Citation !!!!

A

AZMIGHTYMULIES

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Why do I not want to be a Guide ? likely because of some of the "Drama Queen Guides" whom do frequent and Guide the AZ Strip . Some of the Guides or Outfitters are Drama Queens which results to animosity amongst each other . I don't want to be part of that mess .
Well , I received a Citation for Guiding w/o a License for providing Information . So come next year just for insurance sake and protecting myself I will have a Valid Guiding License , and as of right now , no longer providing FREE information . There is obviously a Guide Service or some Outfitters complaining that I am providing FREE information to "Solo" Hunters . They are obviously jealous . It's also someone who pays close attention to my activities here . Why ? Because in my previous Thread
"Arizona Trail Cam Ban Proposal" , conversation 93 through 97 , I am helping provide info to an Antelope Tag Holder a Non-Resident from Oregon a "Solo" Hunter for Free . Another Solo Hunter in the Thread "Strip" I was providing Free info to as well . Well whoever is paying close attention to my Info here obviously brought that up to AZG&F .So , sorry , but due to the envious idiots , I will no longer provide info to anybody such as the whereabouts of a specific location .
 
There was one occasion that a "Solo" Hunter asked , quote, " Would you be offended if I sent you 250.00 for Gas "? I said " You don't need to do that, but I won't complain". Supposedly thats the primary issue . However the real issue is a jealous Outfitter who initiated this complaint/s . Several examples were presented to me today of online conversations I've had with Solo Hunters .
The problem I'm seeing is , what if I provide the same information , maps, GPS Cords, etc and the whereabouts of a specific buck , yet I am present in the field assisting and the solo hunter/s pay for my Food/Gas etc just to be there .
 
"The problem I'm seeing is , what if I provide the same information , maps, GPS Cords, etc and the whereabouts of a specific buck , yet I am present in the field assisting and the solo hunter/s pay for my Food/Gas etc just to be there."

You might look up "guiding" definitions in the states you feel compelled to provide information in. The transfer of money/goods/services for that info would be the relevant area. The states I have look at have a rather thin window and even having a non hunting friend take you to his area and you buy lunch could be a violation.
 
IMO G&F would need to have proof that you have been compensated in some way for the information you have provided. If they do not then you should fight this. Any judge will throw it out.

Just get the guides license and keep doing what your doing. In the end that gives you the last laugh. If you really want to get under this Outfitters skin just start providing a map scouting service of the Strip for a reasonable fee.
 
ya, it's a pretty twisted Law , to which I do not quite understand . I mean to the extent of the Statue's , it virtually states that you can't even help any family or friend , if your buddy who has a tag buys you burger , you're breaking the law . lol
 
Wow! So you and a buddy jump in your truck and split the gas, your busted for taking payment for half the gas since its your truck?

Or how about you just take your truck and pay for all the gas and go scout with a buddy. Is your buddy in trouble for getting a free scouting trip since you paid for everything?

I'm thinking you should be able to shove that ticket up someones a$$ when its all said and done.

www.muleybulloutfitters.com
 
Very much agreed .... Ex. My 2 Brothers , one from Colorado and the other from North Carolina , both in Military . We decided to get together, (Which we haven't done in 16 years due to them being over seas all the time) but decided to go Hunt Pigs on the AZ Strip . Neither of my brothers have never been to the AZ Strip , I'm the only knowledgable one of the area , however both my Brothers paid me for Gas and they bought half the Food . I'll be damned I just freaking Broke the Law it Seems !!! The problem I'm having is the Jealous Guide who Complained to AZG&FD , if you have a problem with me confront me and not be a freaking panzy @ss , or just mind you own damn business .
 
Very sick. I wonder how many people have helped out on a hunt and been in violation. What if on break they give you a candy bar outta their pack. Is that payment? Can anyone go on a Hunt with a buddy or brother or dad or anyone and not be breaking the law if you do not split EVERYTHING ? Pathetic. I hope whomever complained gets theirs !!!

-Sig
Find 'em. Learn 'em. Shoot 'em. Eat 'em.
 
I have 3 Game Warden Friends on my FB account whom 110% agree that the Law is by far too Open Ended and needs to be tailored to a degree as this Law can be applied in to many unjustifiable ways . Between the comments here and especially on my FB page , it's evident that people are not aware of how this Law can be applied to each and everyone of us , and We are all Guilty of it, even the Game Wardens at one point in time or another .
 
This makes me want to scout, take pictures, make maps and just post it on here for anyone and everyone. I have personally ran into guides in the strip while just photographing deer who have threatened to turn me in for guiding without a license if I told people where I'm finding deer. I told the guide I wouldn't be getting compensated so it's not guiding. He said they can always find a way to pin me with getting compensated. I'm not even from Arizona, but F&G need to get some control of those guides. I'll be scouting it a ton this next summer, and will have free information for anyone who needs it!
 
Makes me want to start guiding down there and scouting for free. The outfitter industry is starting to get down right entitled and disgusting. The only type of outfitting I would ever consider for hire is a wilderness style horse trip. That is only because I do not own horses myself.
 
I could care less about the law or a sissy outfitter turning me in. Bring it ahole. Just go in front of a judge and tell him to show you the proof of compenstion the outfitter turned in on this citation. A post saying someone "might" send something is not proof of compensation. You also have a legal right to confront your accuser so bring that up to the Judge then publish the girly man's name on all the sites and put him out of business. I would have my attorney shove this one up their as$.
 
Arizona Public Records Law allows you to request info based on your situation. You could find out which guide/s issued the complaint. Freedom of information!
 
Well I won't mention His name for now , but this is all public information and I am Entitled to receive a PSI (Presentence Investigation Report) which will have all the complainers on it and what they said "Word for Word". Though if you want to know the name of the person , visit my FB page as one of my Friends mentioned His name and called Him out . Apparently this same person/s has accused 3 others in the past 4 years of virtually the same thing .
 
Wow!

I understand that the AZGF has to follow up on a complaint. But to issue you a citation is crazy. A little education about how the law is and what you may have been doing wrong would've been a lot smarter choice.
 
Thats the whole purpose behind me posting this info here on MM and my FB page is to allow others to be aware of this Hidden Law "sort of speak". The majority of people are unaware of it how how it can be used against you . And the penalty can be loosing
me/you loosing your Hunting privileges for 5 years . I have not Hunted in 20 years so , so be it . But what about the rest of you all ?
Yes, rather than issuing a Citation this should've been just an opportunity for the AZG&F to present some educational insight .
Hell, even when the AZG&F was reading a elaborating the Statue of Limitations regarding the Law , it's freaking confusing . Too many Grey areas .
 
Mike: Sent you a FB request. I have gone through this exact same thing here in Idaho. Will take anyone who draws a tag and needs help, but learned early to walk the line carefully. I have sat down with several of the GW's and Area managers and they know that I am good to my word, and there is no "guiding" going on. The Idaho Outfitters and Guides even get 50% of the fines, if you are found guilty and charged. How'sthat for a reason to turn you in?
 
lol......speaking of drama queens...


6372image.jpg
 
Guess a couple questions

What proof have they that you received payment!?

Why would they take a guides word without positive proof and issue a citation!?

What is the name of the officer who issued your citation

How do I find your facebook page?

look back at the outfitter whom "guided" the guy that killed the elk in 3a illegally and got off scott free cuz no one could prove he received payment

No way they should even be wasting time and resources on this situation

Hell everyone going hunting with a buddy/ family member etc. is ILLEGAL
 
Why Scan a pic of the Citation ? lol . you want to know my Identity , Height , Weight , Color of Eyes , Sex etc ? lol. J/k with ya . All it says is Guide w/o License section 17-362
besides that I don't have a scanner.
 
I think the question is weather a citation was actually issued or not. Right wrong or otherwise your track record has been brought into question more then once. You yourself have admitted to several transgressions in the past and it has and will be brought into light when things like this are posted. You can end any speculation by posting a copy of the citation, If your concern is personal information being posted black it out....I would imagine that your name, date of said citation and infraction would be more then enough to end any questions... If you chose not to you will simply add fuel to the fire. You will eventually have to go before the commission for the citation and it will then all be public record....I don't care either way, just thought I might save you the wrath of the mm hangmen.....
 
The citation is public record as soon as it is issued. It will be adjudicated in a court, then if found guilty the Commission might take up the question of loss of privileges.

I'd be interested in knowing who the issuing officer was.
 
Yes this will all be Public Records and I invite everyone to review it . I will also be releasing a Investigation Report all the details of the individual who complained to the AZG&F , which I have learned this person has also tried to get 3 other people into trouble on similar incidences .
 
>>I think the question is weather a citation was actually issued or not. Right wrong or otherwise your track record has been brought into question more then once.<<

Bingo! You win a stuffed animal! LOL

AZMighty,

If you don't have a scanner, a simple with photo of it will work just as well. Now tell you have no digital camera that works because the dog ate them.



TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Well I'm not going to post a picture of the Citation , Why anyone would question whether I received one or not is beyond me ... as I don't know anyone who would make something up in this kind of situation . The initial purpose of this Topic is to inform and educate others of the Law and the extremes it can be enforced .
If you so care to more about it, you'll be able to look it up in Public Records whenever they become available .
 
Mike.... I believe your missing the point... You appear to be more concerned with the guide who supposedly turned you in and bringing his actions to light then you are with the fact that if in fact you were issued a citation after G&F investigated the incident you were in violation of game laws. If you did violate game laws man up pay the fine and learn from it...It sounds as if you have an issue with a guide who thought someone was breaking the law and did what we all should do, TURN HIM IN !!...Simply because he has supposedly done this same thing to two other individuals does not make him a bad person, If they did nothing wrong then it's up to G&F to educate him on the rules/regs...But I don't recall the fact that you can only make a call one time. Dont worry so much about what the other guy does , Don't violate game laws and if you see someone breaking the law make a call.
 
Regarding the Guide who did the complaining, if He really really viewed the matter as a Law being violated , good for him I'm not overly concerned about that other than He does know me, and if He solely had a concern maybe He should've approached me first especially for a petty as this Citation and the details behind it is . Regardless this is a Educational learning experience . The Law is the Law and We should all abide the Laws .And for what the Laws are , I do abide by the Laws to my understanding of the Laws.
 
Mike F,

In defense of the investigator, you did post "I got a archery hunter on 13b" on the 'strip' thread. Your exact words. What did you expect your unnecessary bragging would bring you???

The rest of things I agree with you on. The greed and micro-management of bucks by the 'new guides' is completely disgusting and demoralizing to us few remaining DIY hunters. I may make my own post on the forum just to add to what you and others have stated here. I've whacked 2 big Strip bucks DIY (with no buddy's in attendance) in the last 20 years.

Remember when Ryan Hatch and others were accused of illegally guiding on the Navajo Res and the payment was supposedly the "client" buying them a meal at the Taco Bell in Chinle? This is what the USFWS had come up with to charge them with illegal guiding. Ralph Stayner wrote an exceptional article that was published in one of the specialty trophy hunting mags about this. Remember it?
 
I do recall the accusations towards Ryan Hatch but did not no much of the details . I never have heard about or read any Article about this . If you so by chance can find any info with a Link please share .
 
It's pretty cut and dry, if money or gifts are exchanged for services generally provided by a guide, it's a violation. It takes food from the mouths of a guides family. I've had plenty of people ask me to pack out an elk for a few bucks. When I tell them I can't legally take anything and I don't work for free it becomes obvious they don't understand the law and how clear it is. I just wish the enforcement was as stringent in the housing industry and those working illegally in this country! The situations the same!
 
Never liked the way the outfitting buisness has became , they dont own the game or have rights to the public land. There are some good people who do guiding but for the most part there a snake in the grass. I will never use one , if I cant do it on my own then why even bother. Go hunt a high fence or a shopping market , its about the same.
There is situatons where a older person may need some assitance and a guid would be perfect.
Its not that way , lots of photos showing big animals and it could be yours for a small few of 5000. what a joke. Iam with you , If I have info. someone can us and I think there a decent person I will do what I can to help them out . This the way it should be. Far as the outfitter that cryed on this matter , now has opened up a free for all on strip info. never stop helping a fellow hunter or friend.
 
I got to agree on the free advise part

Kind of like, most everyone whom frequents the strip can identify the area just from the pictures posted of the big ones standing next to a tank / water source.

There is nothing saying you can't give cords to every tank and identify the exact spot these photos are taken.

That way when I draw my strip tag next yr I can just visit the water , where the biggest bucks picture was taken.

If you want to screw over a few guides , its that easy
They don't want you or I in any area that they can make a dollar-3,000 to 6,000 off a big buck!

Just watch your p's and q's and there is no law against posting water locations!
 
If,I lived there, I'd love to be cited for guiding if a buddy bought me gas or lunch that'd be fun to challenge in court. With our backlog groped court systems and the cost of trials, I can only imagine how thrilled some judge would be with F&G for having to spend time over the purchase of a hamburger. Boy, I'd expect a royal ass chewing by the judge of whoever F&G would send to the hearing.
 
I hired a guide in NM years ago that ended up never having hunted the unit we were in. I also came back for several years after that and had outfitters stop and tell me they had all rights to the area and I could not hunt there. I pulled my maps out and they both ended up taking their clients and leaving. Seems like some of them are just plain money grubbing liars. I helped a man on HuntTalk and told him where to go, how to get there and where to find the animals. Too bad so sad.
 
If you buy a lunch YOU will be charged ask Ryan, they sure and the hell cost him some lawyer money.

Mike post up some of those honey holes. The rest of the outfitters will be thrilled at the guy who started this mess.LOL

I'm waiting to draw the strip so save a couple of those spots for me.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
just so you know -

Bruce D. Evenson
Docket # 2014-0037
Evenson was found guilty by the Flagstaff Justice Court for Count A: Guide without a license; and sentenced: Fined $670.00.
Motion: Mansell moved and Harris seconded THAT THE LICENSE(S) AND/OR LICENSES PRIVILEGES OF BRUCE D. EVENSON TO HUNT, FISH, AND TRAP IN THE STATE OF ARIZONA BE REVOKED AND HE BE DENIED ANOTHER FOR A PERIOD OF FIVE (5) YEARS; THAT THE CURRENT LICENSE(S) BE SUSPENDED AS OF THE DATE OF THIS HEARING, AND THAT IT/THEY BE REVOKED AS OF THE DATE THE ORDER IN THIS CASE IS SIGNED BY THE DIRECTOR; THAT HE BE REQUIRED TO COMPLETE THE HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE, AND PROVIDE PROOF TO THE DEPARTMENT?S LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH, BEFORE APPLYING FOR ANY OTHER LICENSE TO HUNT IN THIS STATE; AND FURTHER MOVE THAT THE DIRECTOR, AS SECRETARY TO THE COMMISSION, BE DIRECTED TO SIGN AND ISSUE A FINDING OF FACT, CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND AN ORDER IN THIS MATTER PURSUANT TO THIS MOTION.
Vote: Unanimous
 
Jessie S. Gold
Docket # 2014-0039
Gold was found guilty by the Flagstaff Justice Court for Count A: Guide without a license; and sentenced: Fined $670.00.
Motion: Mansell moved and Ammons seconded THAT THE LICENSE(S) AND/OR LICENSES PRIVILEGES OF JESSIE S. GOLD TO HUNT, FISH, AND TRAP IN THE STATE OF ARIZONA BE REVOKED AND HE BE DENIED ANOTHER FOR A PERIOD OF FIVE (5) YEARS; THAT THE CURRENT LICENSE(S) BE SUSPENDED AS OF THE DATE OF THIS HEARING, AND THAT IT/THEY BE REVOKED AS OF THE DATE THE ORDER IN THIS CASE IS SIGNED BY THE DIRECTOR; THAT HE BE REQUIRED TO COMPLETE THE HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE, AND PROVIDE PROOF TO THE DEPARTMENT?S LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH, BEFORE APPLYING FOR ANY OTHER LICENSE TO HUNT IN THIS STATE; AND FURTHER MOVE THAT THE DIRECTOR, AS SECRETARY TO THE COMMISSION, BE DIRECTED TO SIGN AND ISSUE A FINDING OF FACT, CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND AN ORDER IN THIS MATTER PURSUANT TO THIS MOTION.
 
Mike,

First off I am glad you help people it is nice of you. What I can tell you as of right now you have admitted to receiving compensation for fuel from someone you helped with on a Hunt. Under the terms of all Western States and Federal Agencies that is guiding without a License. Next you need to understand is that the feds have not got involved. Special Recreation Permits are required to provide services on federal lands. So you took compensation so you got a state fine if you are convicted of it and piss too many people off LEO's of all agencies work together. So if you rattle the wrong cages you could be looking at a federal case as well. Just an FYI.
 
It's a chit law IMHO. I'd love to help some guys pack their animals out in exchange for a few winter hay $, but I don't dare for fear of this very thing. I'm already there wouldn't b that big a deal in my eyes, but knowing the law prevents me from doin it. And some guys think I'm bein a dik by not doin it. I just tell em to get the law changed and next year I'd b happy to help em out.
 
I think this has been blown way out of proportion. The way I see it is if your main goal for helping someone out is to gain something then that would be illegal based on the law. I feel that if you help someone out and they want to give you a few bucks or buy you dinner then that would be fine otherwise as someone else stated every hunter would be guilty of it whether with a friend or fellow hunter. I think it is based on your intent...make money or help out. Just my 2 cents right or wrong who knows.
 
>I think this has been blown
>way out of proportion. The
>way I see it is
>if your main goal for
>helping someone out is to
>gain something then that would
>be illegal based on the
>law. I feel that if
>you help someone out and
>they want to give you
>a few bucks or buy
>you dinner then that would
>be fine otherwise as someone
>else stated every hunter would
>be guilty of it whether
>with a friend or fellow
>hunter. I think it is
>based on your intent...make money
>or help out. Just my
>2 cents right or wrong
>who knows.

^^^X2^^^ I'm thinking along these lines as well. If someone helps me out and shows me a few things, I would absolutely offer to buy him/her lunch....or put a few bucks of gas in the tank. I guess, as the law is written, that would be a violation. However, I'm not sure that the "intent" of the law is to address stuff like this. On the other hand, if anyone were to help, and then profit from that...I can see where that would be a problem and justify a complaint.

At what point is simple "gratitude" more than just that? Other than a simple "Thank You" is there ANY room for gratitude at all?
 
I just looked up the actual description in the GF book and it says that you have to accept any thing in return commensurate with the market value for the services, which means you have to be charging market value for the help given. So if you turn someone on to a record book animal and the market value is five grand...that's a lot of gas and dinners you have to receive before breaking the law.
That's the way I read it anyway.
 

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