muleymaddness
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I’m curious what others think - but how will kids that can’t even apply yet ever be in the game to draw a tag? Or a new hunter that doesn’t have points yet?
There’s always a chance. With point creep there’s a lot of tags that are zero chance. Which would you prefer?Vegas would not take Idahos odds. Is is like the Oakland taking the series. ”so you are saying there is a chance”.
You must be a Idaho res ?There should be no such thing as points. A draw should be a random draw. May Idaho never change
If you are going to hunt the Lolo during rifle season, you've got your work cut out. Last time I was there, we never cut a track in 3 days. On the other hand, I called 5 bulls in 2 days on the archery hunt. Problem was it is sooo thick we couldn't get a shot even though most of them were less than 30 yards.You must be a Idaho res ?
in my endeavor every thing crashed , then crashed again, Unit 10 ( Lolo) had some tags but low population numbers and success ratios
i think our confusing buying capped tads with limited entry drawings. but yes im a res, and im all for whatever makes it more difficult for non resident hunters to come here.You must be a Idaho res ?
in my endeavor every thing crashed , then crashed again, Unit 10 ( Lolo) had some tags but low population numbers and success ratios
here's to hopingUT's point problem will go away quickly as it "bans" all things tech...
Thats, exactly my feeling, i don't have kids, and i do not give 2 shits about anyone elses, thier future is not my problem,never will be.Screw the kids. Get me MY tag. The future of hunting is now!
Glad to know you didn’t produce offspring. There’s hope for mankind after all!Thats, exactly my feeling, i don't have kids, and i do not give 2 shits about anyone elses, thier future is not my problem,never will be.
i live/hunt in the here and now screw their future kill um all
They can't, that's the point. Those that got in early have the advantage and they only care about themselves. There is no thought about the future, only now. Same goes for the economy and for hunting in several western states. Be great if the house I paid $25k magicaly become worth $1.5 mil a few decades later for no reason, no other generation will have that. Just like future generations won't have hunting in this country but once in a lifetime. Heck only in 10 years I've seen many areas go from draw every year to every 10+ years. Will only get worst, adapt or be the change that stops it.I’m curious what others think - but how will kids that can’t even apply yet ever be in the game to draw a tag? Or a new hunter that doesn’t have points yet?
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They can't, that's the point. Those that got in early have the advantage and they only care about themselves. There is no thought about the future, only now. Same goes for the economy and for hunting in several western states. Be great if the house I paid $25k magicaly become worth $1.5 mil a few decades later for no reason, no other generation will have that. Just like future generations won't have hunting in this country but once in a lifetime. Heck only in 10 years I've seen many areas go from draw every year to every 10+ years. Will only get worst, adapt or be the change that stops it.
Thats, exactly my feeling, i don't have kids, and i do not give 2 shits about anyone elses, thier future is not my problem,never will be.
i live/hunt in the here and now screw their future kill um all
Couldn’t agree more! There is so much opportunity for everyone, not just youth hunters, yet so many people seem to think the only tags worth hunting take max points to draw. I guess I should be grateful, because while many guys complain about never getting drawn, it makes it easier for me to have several wonderful adventures on mediocre tags all over the west every year.Take away the “Trophy” and kids have plenty of opportunity.
There is no easy answer for sure. Too many of us want to hunt with a limited number of permits.
If tags are totally random, is it any more "fair" for a first time kid applicant to walk to the front of the line and draw a tag, while a "grey hair" continues to be unsuccessful after 60 years of applications?
When point systems started no one could realistically foretell the continued increase in demand for the consistently declining tag numbers. I think we all knew there would be point creep, but none of us could really tell to what extent.
I have grandkids now and for sure I worry about their hunting opportunities going forward. I will do everything I can to help them get opportunities including helping fund, or mentoring a tag.
But what is fair?
Should we drop points and screw everyone who has been waiting in line for years? No easy solutions.
They pretty much are now.These type of plans were dreamt up decades ago, and we are seeing now that they DO NOT WORK. Its a sad state of affairs.
All Limited Entry type big game tags will one day be OIL tags. Waiting periods obviously don't work at all in curbing point creep.
Plenty of other threads talk about how to 'fix' this issue... I'll just plan on my kids never hunting a special area, but if they do get a tag, feel lucky as can be...
One thing that could still be done is to put a cap on the max number of possible points you can collect for each species. If it were set at 30, for example, then a kid would have to wait until they are 42 or 44 to have best possible odds, which is not really unreasonable IMO. No other change necessary.
And the deer getting killed on 2 and 3 point tags lately are often every bit as good, or better, as the tags that take 20 points.I Colorado, the PP system works well until you get past about 5 points. Makes it easy to plan a hunt with a low number of points needed, say 2 or 3 points to draw. Also makes it easy to plan with a group
Beyond that, it breaks down in overall fairness.
As a nonresident of these two states, you have to have the coin first...put them in for Idaho and New Mexico where they still have a bleak chance at drawing the best tags.
Kids have plenty of opportunity. Let them build points and hunt easy to draw tags yearly. This complaint of the kids can’t hunt is a parent problem. If you don’t like the point system, put them in for Idaho and New Mexico where they still have a bleak chance at drawing the best tags.
All I can do is disagree. I am not defending point systems. Nor am I passionate about my points. If the point states want to revert to random or the random states want points then let them do it. The odds will be difficult either way. I just don’t believe that waiting in line is injustice. If your kids don’t want to wait, have them hunt somewhere else. We have a people problem not a point problem. Too many people all trying for the same San Juan LE tag.That's not the argument AT ALL.
You can simply replace "kids" in your paragraph, and replace it with "old guy" and it's just as true.
The argument isn't whether kids can hunt or not. The argument is why is a LE hunt, for example, more deserved by one hunter, than another, based solely on wrinkles?
Why not set up the point system based on testosterone levels? Fertility levels?
Oh, that's right, old dudes, lacking in both, created the system.
Dudes who say "take them hunting", buy them points. CANT DO MATH.
Too many people all trying for the same San Juan LE tag.
Who cares about an investment in a failed system. No where in the application process has any one been guaranteed their points would amount to squat or even always be there. Blow the whole thing up. The guys that will bich the most will all be dead or too old to hunt in a few years so we don’t have to hear it for longIt all comes down to permit numbers no matter how you look at. No one would be complaining if they could draw in a reasonable amount of time.
Going fully random will not change enough in the grand scheme of things to make it worth changing the system when so many are already invested.
Switching to a random draw does nothing to increase tag numbers. The same amount of people will still draw annually. Only under the random draw system everyone will be complaining they can’t draw a tag with no end in sight.
The big issue here is that there are nowhere near enough permits for the thousands of applicants. That will never change.
There is not enough upside to change the system. As it is now everyone has a random chance at half the tags in the drawing. That’s about as good as it gets. There is no system in the world that will fix the demand placed on the few tags available.
Is there not a random as well
As high point in the draw
Then why do you see tags drawn wit 1.4 .8.15 . Points
Add NM to that equationThere should be no such thing as points. A draw should be a random draw. May Idaho never change
There should be no such thing as points. A draw should be a random draw. May Idaho never change
Add NM to that equation, clean slate every year.There should be no such thing as points. A draw should be a random draw. May Idaho never change
Including you there Hoss.
No one is saying the cow tags are the same as an LE tag. No one. Very few old guys with points will ever draw that San Juan tag you keep referencing.
Youth draw LE tags every single year. Youth draw OIL tags every single year. Old guys do too.
Just cause we disagree with your opinion does not mean we’re lying.
Sick of people calling it a point scheme but your right. It is a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation. However, they aren’t lying to us and we all know the odds and reality of the situation. The only people Biochin are the blue hairs with the points because they have a tough time getting drawn too.
Add NM to that equation, clean slate every year.
ThisYou think, honestly, if they came with a system that said you will draw every 25 years, anyone would have jumped on board?
And that Serve, is why it is a real possibility to never draw. And that is also the reason applications climb to a new high every year further reducing your ability to draw...
I need to take about 30 does off our farms next year. I will take any youth hunter who buys a tag, can hunt safely, shoot straight, and enjoys going. I will even bone the deer out. I will provide the gun, bullets, heater, snacks, and probably anything else they need. The success rates runs between 100% to 100%. Requires 0 points.
You’re trying to jump on board right now! The random draw still has the same number of tags as we have now. We will still have thousands of applicants. Regardless of the draw system in place, it will be 30 plus years at a minimum before you draw your San Juan or Henry’s tag. That’s if you ever draw one. There is not a system in the world that will move you through the draw in 5-7 years. Never has been. Never will be unless we open all units to general season with massive permit increases."a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation" is pretty much the definition of a scheme.
And yes, they did lie. We were gonna draw tags every 5-7 years.
You think, honestly, if they came with a system that said you will draw every 25 years, anyone would have jumped on board?
You’re trying to jump on board right now! The random draw still has the same number of tags as we have now. We will still have thousands of applicants. Regardless of the draw system in place, it will be 30 plus years at a minimum before you draw your San Juan or Henry’s tag. That’s if you ever draw one. There is not a system in the world that will move you through the draw in 5-7 years. Never has been. Never will be unless we open all units to general season with massive permit increases.
At least with our current system everyone has a chance to draw and the longer you try to draw you get incrementally closer to drawing a tag. Through attrition of the older generation the new hunters will become high point holders and get even more tags then they get now.
Youth have plenty of opportunity to hunt. They have Utahs random draws and mentor program, Idaho’s cheap tags, Wyoming’s cheap bonus points, Colorado’s cheap fees, New Mexico’s fantastic youth permits, Arizona’s cheap points, etc.
If your only thought to youth opportunity is cow tags then the problem is with you. Time to take a step back from the keyboard and open your eyes. The opportunities are endless.
New Mexico’s fantastic youth permits,
I have done the math and I know it looks scary to you but, here is the deal. In my hunting group we have a youth who drew Bison, we have another youth who has drawn LE elk and LE pronghorn, 3 more youth who have drawn LE deer.
I have a buddy who just started hunting 3 years ago. He has already drawn LE elk.
My son will draw a top unit in Wy this year. He will draw another top unit in Az next year.
How about you do the math? What does the math look like in a straight random draw with current (likely to never change) permit numbers?
I will answer that for you. The odds are astronomical no matter the draw system in place.
To say kids and new hunters don’t have a chance to draw tags is a ball face lie. You are dead wrong. Nothing could be further than the truth. The system doesn’t turn into this magical draw that everyone gets tags once it’s changed to fully random.
My son and daughter have both drawn tags. They used the draw system as currently constituted (you know, the one they can’t draw with) and they have drawn tags in Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming.
You’re asking for a change to the system and you have that right to do so. But, your argument is flawed and justifications are weak. Changing the system will not help you draw your coveted San Juan elk tag.
Bull Bison, LE Wasatch elk x2, Bonanza pronghorn, 2- Book cliffs deer tags individually, 1- CWMU deer, the list goes on.The odds look pretty similar to my 22 moose points at a .04% chance of drawing.
So, zero either way.
But words matter.
I'll notice you didn't say WHAT tags they drew.
And is AWESOME, that kid drew a bison tag(although you didn't say which sex).
BUT SO?
Your way of telling me random draws don't work, is by telling me all the tags your kids drew randomly?
Thanks. I agree, they did better randomly then with points.
But again. So?
North American Model says wildlife belongs to the citizens of the state. Not the old dudes of the state.
Man, I don't know how to say the same thing, over and over.Bull Bison, LE Wasatch elk x2, Bonanza pronghorn, 2- Book cliffs deer tags individually, 1- CWMU deer, the list goes on.
My point is not that random draws don’t work, my point is our system right now is the best out there and your assumptions and lies about youth and new hunters not drawing is incorrect.
You’re using absurd statements and implying that people can’t draw tags.
False.
The North American model does state that. And everyone has a chance to draw. Not everyone will.
Good luck in your pursuit there Hoss. I’m don’t explaining a simple process to you.