He, myself or no one else is denying poaching continues to be a problem, but to say it has a bigger toll on big game numbers than predators is just plain laughable.And poaching.
I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box. My apologies.You don’t know eel’s sarcasm do you…
I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.My thoughts exactly.....?
You forgot the period, it's how we end sentences, and the word you're looking for is "you're" or you are.Ooohhh you really got me
You already look as dumb as you are. Just quit while your ahead
I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.
I bet mule deer hunting will be worse when I burn my points than now, in spite of your shoot on sight lion experiment.
2 grand to keep it friendly?
I’ll take your word for it. You got lots of experience trying to not look dumbYou forgot the period, it's how we end sentences, and the word you're looking for is "you're" or you are.
Always a good idea to get it right, if you're trying to not look dumb.
Nationwide.
Sorry, how is mule deer hunting in Wyoming this year?
Now why would a guy buy points in a state for 28-30 years, if it sucked so bad??
Lmao.....based off YOUR silly assumptions, not even an simple minded person would take a bet under those circumstances alone and your guidelines.I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.
I bet mule deer hunting will be worse when I burn my points than now, in spite of your shoot on sight lion experiment.
2 grand to keep it friendly?
Please show me where I said or even made a "suggestion to minimize predator control"?Lmao.....based off YOUR silly assumptions, not even an simple minded person would take a bet under those circumstances alone and your guidelines.
You can't even verify your own state's numbers, why would I allow you to say "I win" because you "feel" numbers aren't up to par due to your success outcome?
News flash.....the declining mule deer herds have steadily decreased in every state across the west, not just Utah.....including yours.
So your suggestion is to minimize predator control during these deer declining times that are being affected by a long drought, poor habitat conditions on winter ranges, increasing highway mortality and other natural elements?
Sounds like a novel idea from a liberal idealism individual to me.
Do you also stand behind wolves being introduced into Colorado during their deer decline as well?
179 deer convictions last year is a "massive problem"?Please show me where I said or even made a "suggestion to minimize predator control"?
Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge your state has a massive poaching problem?
Even your own division of Wildlife acknowledges it.
I don't live in Colorado, vote in Colorado, so my opinion on wolves there is equally as worthless as yours. We don't matter.
Why it's pointless for you to compare how Wyoming is choosing to manage lions with utah. Makes no sense.
You honestly believe only 179 deer were poached in Utah last year?179 deer convictions last year is a "massive problem"?
You still haven't shown your states poaching convictions, yet I was able to provide you with a single Wyoming case that involved 113 deer poached by one single Wyoming resident.
Wanna do the percentage comparison on that for us?
I'm sorry I can't make you understand the state comparison on lion depredation, that's a "you" problem.
Explain how YOUR article from 1992 is Gospel to you because it came from the DWR, but another article from 2022 (last year) coming from the same place is lies?You honestly believe only 179 deer were poached in Utah last year?
No wonder your deer are in the tank.
You're doing "great".
Here, I'll post it again since your amnesia is getting the best of you.You honestly believe only 179 deer were poached in Utah last year?
No wonder your deer are in the tank.
You're doing "great".
You're delusional about the amount of poaching that goes on.Explain how YOUR article from 1992 is Gospel to you because it came from the DWR, but another article from 2022 (last year) coming from the same place is lies?
Are you feeling ok?
I'm typing slow, so you can try to understand. Those are the numbers actually caught poaching.
Lmao???You're delusional about the amount of poaching that goes on.
Never seen someone in such a total state of denial about it.
It's intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer, that a tiny fraction of poachers are caught.
Ask a warden what percentage of poaching they catch.Lmao???
You're killin me....
Again, explain how the 1992 DWR post is gospel but 2022 is lies?
I know the answer already......because it doesn't fit your unsubstantiated agenda, that's why.
It was 1992 Buzz......I'm typing slow, so you can try to understand. Those are the numbers actually caught poaching.
That's a very different number, and a much smaller one, than the amount of poaching that takes place.
Go talk to a warden and ask them what percentage they think they catch.
Report back, if you dare.
Convictions are likely 3 percent or less of the amount actually poached. Wardens will tell you the same thing.It was 1992 Buzz......
Care to educate us on if those were actual convictions or estimates since you're so adamant about it?
I see an article about "Now", these current times, 2022 last years report.....179 deer poaching convictions.
Somehow your brain (or moreso, finger)is saying there are 22,821 unreported or non conviction poachings currently taking place in Utah today.
Oh boy........?
Now you're comparing Utah's poaching numbers with an article about Kentuckys whitetail numbers?Assessing the 'Dark Figure' of Poaching in America - Game & Fish
The Boone and Crockett Club aims to quantify wildlife crimes—and their hidden costs—through a new program.www.gameandfishmag.com
If only obviously...
Ask a Utah warden what percentage of poaching they catch.Now you're comparing Utah's poaching numbers with an article about Kentuckys whitetail numbers?
Good lord.....
"3% are caught in the bluegrass state"
Do you realize there are One Million Whitetail deer in Kentucky?
How many deer in Utah or even Wyoming?
I can't believe I am actually even entertaining this nonsense.
You have no idea how many were poached.You are quoting from a news article that is 30 plus years old and is a very poorly written article. It was hard to distinguish how the writer was getting her information.
Yes, Buzz, there was more than 179 deer poached last year, but 23000, not a chance.
If you really believe that Wyoming is better than Utah when it comes down to poaching, then I got some ocean front property in Wyoming to sell you.
Sounds like someone is in denial, and his name is Buzzh.
Nor do you......but it definitely isn't 23,000!!?You have no idea how many were poached.
And you know this how?Nor do you......but it definitely isn't 23,000!!?
No Buzz, put your Bud Lights down, it's a school night.And you know this how?
I'm way closer at 23,000 than you are at 179.
If only .6-3% are caught, do some math and tell me who's numbers are closer.
Just sayin'...
I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...No Buzz, put your Bud Lights down, it's a school night.
Buzz you won't even acknowledge that you used 1992 article, why in the world would I accept anything you say.I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...
If 1% are caught, there were 17,900 deer poached in Utah last year, which is very likely.
I'll make a phone call tomorrow and get in touch with a Utah warden, since you're afraid of what they'll tell you.
It's no wonder wildlife numbers are continuing to slide when major problems with harvest reporting are ignored.
I could believe 6000Just for my own personal enjoyment in this…
If 179 is equal to 3% that equates to roughly 6k deer a year. Even if 179 is 1% that would be roughly 18k deer.
So, while either of those are significant numbers, that we could all agree on. The 2300 mountain lions still kill far more deer then the poachers.
I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...
If 1% are caught, there were 17,900 deer poached in Utah last year, which is very likely.
I'll make a phone call tomorrow and get in touch with a Utah warden, since you're afraid of what they'll tell you.
I doubt 1% of poachers are caught.I could believe 6000
I doubt 1% of poachers are caught.
Curiously enough, the stats posted by B&C state that the illegal take of wildlife likely is equal to or exceeds legal take.
Utah has been killing on average 26,000 or so deer a year. If 1% are caught that's 18000 deer a year poached in Utah.
In a surprise to no one except those living in denial, that's approaching the legal harvest.
Sad reality.
Those Wyoming calculators are different than every other states.1% of 26000 is 18000
I am slow, but how did you figure this equation?
I'm sure true Wyoming residents are thrilled Buzz is a transplant to their great state!Those Wyoming calculators are different than every other states.
I'm still beside myself how my thread got turned into a discussion about poaching ???
I'm still beside myself how my thread got turned into a discussion about poaching ???
If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?1% of 26000 is 18000
I am slow, but how did you figure this equation?
You always create the best threads by accident. LolI'm still beside myself how my thread got turned into a discussion about poaching ???
Of course they aren't happy, I shoot better animals than most of them.I'm sure true Wyoming residents are thrilled Buzz is a transplant to their great state!
You are using two different posts to come up with your illogical answer.If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?
Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?
So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.
Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.
Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.
Its not that difficult.
I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.
That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
Sorry you're confused, I broke it down to the most simple format I could think of. Also, I'm going out on a limb, but I'm thinking the word you're looking for is definitely?You are using two different posts to come up with your illogical answer.
You are diffently not worth my time.
Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.
But, it's your State, ignore away.
And Wyoming, Montana and any other state you can name.As in, poaching is definitely a major problem in Utah.
If game warden Buzz uses 30 year old data, adds his equation to 2022, his math is ridiculously flawed and a completely unsubstantiated and comical assumption.If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?
Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?
So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.
Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.
Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.
Its not that difficult.
I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.
That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?
Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?
So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.
Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.
Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.
Its not that difficult.
I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.
That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
Sorry I haven't posted on this yet.Ummmm
Udwr says about 10%, but don't let an actual LEO upset your hole digging, carry on
Update, a very nice lady in Casper sent me to tge poaching coordinator in Casper. I left him a message, when he gets back, we can check Buzz math.
So I'll throw a hitch in this.Sorry I haven't posted on this yet.
As usual I keep roaming the wilds of America looking at big game.
What does WLH call poaching? Doesn't have to have a chopper involved either, but it helps.S
So I'll throw a hitch in this.
What does Buzz call poaching?
What does Slam call poaching?
What does the news paper call poaching?
What does the DWR call poaching?
Maybe the reason that yall can't agree is the word is a mighty broad description. That's probably why the numbers do and don't make any sense.
You scared to answer?What does WLH call poaching? Doesn't have to have a chopper involved either, but it helps.
Lol. I asked you a question. Can't you answer?You scared to answer?
You scared to answer a question?Lol. I asked you a question. Can't you answer?
You didn't ask me a question. You asked Buzz, Slam, the newspaper and the G&F. Having a hard time understanding your own posts??You scared to answer a question?
You scared to answer a question?
Damn. All that typing and adjusting your britches just to dodge a question.You didn't ask me a question. You asked Buzz, Slam, the newspaper and the G&F. Having a hard time understanding your own posts??
Funny thing is, like you, I also live in Texas and have just as much (zero) impact on anything in Utah or Wyoming as you do. You just like to interject in threads to post random nonsense and ask general questions without EVER answering any questions posed to you. Not to mention you are an ardent supporter of poachers and outfitters that not only bend the law, they break them frequently while you cheer them on from the MM boards. Funny how you stayed silent on the chopper thread. I know you are just looking for their table scraps of taxidermy work, but your act is tiring.
Again, you can't read. Try again lil guy.Damn. All that typing and adjusting your britches just to dodge a question.
I've never seen someone so scared of having a grown up conversation. If you are tired, float away.
Still dodging. You said you were tired. Go on. Tuck yourself in and call it a night.Again, you can't read. Try again lil guy.
Nah, I can go on busting you up all night. Why can't you ask the folks directly who you addressed in your original post? Scared of @BuzzH or @slamdunk ? Afraid they will hit you with actual facts from boots on the ground and not from SE Houston?Still dodging. You said you were tired. Go on. Tuck yourself in and call it a night.
You forgot the period, it's how we end sentences, and the word you're looking for is "you're" or you are.
Always a good idea to get it right, if you're trying to not look dumb.
Poaching to me is everything as described in the laws, same as it shouldbe to everyone.S
So I'll throw a hitch in this.
What does Buzz call poaching?
What does Slam call poaching?
What does the news paper call poaching?
What does the DWR call poaching?
Maybe the reason that yall can't agree is the word is a mighty broad description. That's probably why the numbers do and don't make any sense.
Good god slam you have started some very entertaining threads lately!!23k poachings in 1992 explains why we don't have any deer in 2023 ?
Gotta keep Founder in business!?Good god slam you have started some very entertaining threads lately!!
Much thanks.Poaching to me is everything as described in the laws, same as it shouldbe to everyone.
Our individual views about those don't matter.
Welcome back Tri
You still dodging. It's a horrible thing living in fear.
Much thanks.
So a guy gets a ticket for not notching the tag when tagging his deer? He broke a game law. Is it poaching?
Never a drop of fear towards anything associated with a poaching supporter like you. Still no comment on your buddy’s chopper slaughter? Has he still not posted that big buck on Instagram? You and I both know why. Keep supporting the criminals Tri. And keep ducking the questions. You never man up.You still dodging. It's a horrible thing living in fear.
By your logic, Wyoming has an even bigger poaching problem. According to their harvest report for 2022, 29,315 deer were legally harvested. That must mean that many deer were also poached in Wyoming last year. Right?Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.
Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.
Its not that difficult.
I bet your a dodgeball champion at the daycare center.Never a drop of fear towards anything associated with a poaching supporter like you. Still no comment on your buddy’s chopper slaughter? Has he still not posted that big buck on Instagram? You and I both know why. Keep supporting the criminals Tri. And keep ducking the questions. You never man up.
No, that shouldn't fall under "Wanton Destruction Of Protected Wildlife"Much thanks.
So a guy gets a ticket for not notching the tag when tagging his deer? He broke a game law. Is it poaching?
Cool. Straight answer.
See this info helps. You disagree, with Hossblur, on what defines poaching. And there is a giant spectrum of opinions on the word's definition.No, that shouldn't fall under "Wanton Destruction Of Protected Wildlife"
Sounds awful hypothetical to me......Cool. Straight answer.
So you believe him to be a poacher and the deer in question was poached.
Now more than likely you will find people that disagree on your opinion. You might even find wildlife agencies that disagree on that. Not saying you're wrong. Just saying there are all types of people and groups, here and elsewhere, that may disagree.
Now here's where it gets tricky. So a game agency is trying to estimate the number of poached deer within their state. And they want to educate and provoke a response from law abiding hunters. They give you numbers that imply you are loosing an extra 23000 deer a year to poachers. We read the article and nothing is defined as to what a poacher actually is and they get to double count, IN SOME CASES, a poached deer and a legally harvested deer. THIS WAY WE ALL COME TO THE DECISION MORE DEER ARE DYING DUE TO HARVEST THAN THE STATE MANAGEMENT PLAN CAN HANDLE.
They get the excuse they need which passes the blame onto someone else for why the deer herds keep declining. And we don't realize a deer that was calculated into their harvest plan is now shuffled into the poached deer column. The deer is actually dead whether it was "poached" or not.
I didn't "disagree" with Hoss, I didn't even see his response when I posted mine.See this info helps. You disagree, with Hossblur, on what defines poaching. And there is a giant spectrum of opinions on the word's definition.
Poaching is a very undefined term which means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. How is any state agency or newspaper man going to use it to calculate an accurate statistic? The answer is they can't.
But they can use it to provoke a response from honest sportsmen, and pass blame for their poor management decisions.
I didn't "disagree" with Hoss, I didn't even see his response when I posted mine.
I gave my instant quick personal answer or view on the question, which was simply different than someone else's.
There's a difference....
No one is teaming up against you here on this......
The hair splitting doesn't matter to the state or the newspapers. They just need the numbers to influence us.@Tristate
If someone purposely left tag unnotched with the "intent" (key word in law) to re-use it, that is where it all changes.
And then it turns into "Wanton Destruction" and ie; Poaching.
Circumstances......
I will disagree with you on this though.The hair splitting doesn't matter to the state or the newspapers. They just need the numbers to influence us.
You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.I will disagree with you on this though.
It most definitely DOES matter to the state, not so much to newspapers.
The state has to prove "Intent", newspapers do not.
What are the circumstances on the un notched tag?
Got it ?You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.
But for a bunch of sportsmen on an internet forum jabbing back and forth and a newspaper article for the public to read the only thing that matters is the protocol emotion and suckering all of us into an argument.
You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.
But for a bunch of sportsmen on an internet forum jabbing back and forth and a newspaper article for the public to read the only thing that matters is the protocol emotion and suckering all of us into an argument.
By your logic, Wyoming has an even bigger poaching problem. According to their harvest report for 2022, 29,315 deer were legally harvested. That must mean that many deer were also poached in Wyoming last year. Right?