The Difference Between Utah And Wyomings Predator Solution

Anyone else notice it's a poaching topic and Tri is quiet?

But then, anyone notice Tri and Buzz never comment at the same time ?
 
BuzzH said:
And poaching.
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He, myself or no one else is denying poaching continues to be a problem, but to say it has a bigger toll on big game numbers than predators is just plain laughable.

Especially when you yourself pointed out how many deer a lion kills on average.

Sorry Buzz.......game over.
 
slamdunk said:
My thoughts exactly.....?‍♂️
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I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.

I bet mule deer hunting will be worse when I burn my points than now, in spite of your shoot on sight lion experiment.

2 grand to keep it friendly?
 
JPickett said:
Ooohhh you really got me (y)

You already look as dumb as you are. Just quit while your ahead
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You forgot the period, it's how we end sentences, and the word you're looking for is "you're" or you are.

Always a good idea to get it right, if you're trying to not look dumb.
 
BuzzH said:
I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.

I bet mule deer hunting will be worse when I burn my points than now, in spite of your shoot on sight lion experiment.

2 grand to keep it friendly?
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Nationwide.

Sorry, how is mule deer hunting g in Wyoming this year?
 
BuzzH said:
I'll make you a wager, I have 23 deer points in Utah, I plan on burning them in 5-7 years.

I bet mule deer hunting will be worse when I burn my points than now, in spite of your shoot on sight lion experiment.

2 grand to keep it friendly?
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Lmao.....based off YOUR silly assumptions, not even an simple minded person would take a bet under those circumstances alone and your guidelines.
You can't even verify your own state's numbers, why would I allow you to say "I win" because you "feel" numbers aren't up to par due to your success outcome?

News flash.....the declining mule deer herds have steadily decreased in every state across the west, not just Utah.....including yours.

So your suggestion is to minimize predator control during these deer declining times that are being affected by a long drought, poor habitat conditions on winter ranges, increasing highway mortality and other natural elements?

Sounds like a novel idea from a liberal idealism individual to me.

Do you also stand behind wolves being introduced into Colorado during their deer decline as well?
 
slamdunk said:
Lmao.....based off YOUR silly assumptions, not even an simple minded person would take a bet under those circumstances alone and your guidelines.
You can't even verify your own state's numbers, why would I allow you to say "I win" because you "feel" numbers aren't up to par due to your success outcome?

News flash.....the declining mule deer herds have steadily decreased in every state across the west, not just Utah.....including yours.

So your suggestion is to minimize predator control during these deer declining times that are being affected by a long drought, poor habitat conditions on winter ranges, increasing highway mortality and other natural elements?

Sounds like a novel idea from a liberal idealism individual to me.

Do you also stand behind wolves being introduced into Colorado during their deer decline as well?
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Please show me where I said or even made a "suggestion to minimize predator control"?

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge your state has a massive poaching problem?

Even your own division of Wildlife acknowledges it.

I don't live in Colorado, vote in Colorado, so my opinion on wolves there is equally as worthless as yours. We don't matter.

Why it's pointless for you to compare how Wyoming is choosing to manage lions with utah. Makes no sense.
 
BuzzH said:
Please show me where I said or even made a "suggestion to minimize predator control"?

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge your state has a massive poaching problem?

Even your own division of Wildlife acknowledges it.

I don't live in Colorado, vote in Colorado, so my opinion on wolves there is equally as worthless as yours. We don't matter.

Why it's pointless for you to compare how Wyoming is choosing to manage lions with utah. Makes no sense.
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179 deer convictions last year is a "massive problem"?

You still haven't shown your states poaching convictions, yet I was able to provide you with a single Wyoming case that involved 113 deer poached by one single Wyoming resident.
Wanna do the percentage comparison on that for us?

I'm sorry I can't make you understand the state comparison on lion depredation, that's a "you" problem.
 
I looked for Wyoming poacher numbers in 1992, maybe Buzz can fill us in

However

The Stop Poaching program works because people truly care about Wyoming's wildlife resources. Each year, hundreds of animals are taken illegally in Wyoming

Wyoming fish and game thinks it's a problem.
 
slamdunk said:
179 deer convictions last year is a "massive problem"?

You still haven't shown your states poaching convictions, yet I was able to provide you with a single Wyoming case that involved 113 deer poached by one single Wyoming resident.
Wanna do the percentage comparison on that for us?

I'm sorry I can't make you understand the state comparison on lion depredation, that's a "you" problem.
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You honestly believe only 179 deer were poached in Utah last year?

No wonder your deer are in the tank.

You're doing "great".
 
BuzzH said:
You honestly believe only 179 deer were poached in Utah last year?

No wonder your deer are in the tank.

You're doing "great".
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Here, I'll post it again since your amnesia is getting the best of you.

Screenshot_20231001_215834_Chrome.jpg
 
slamdunk said:
Explain how YOUR article from 1992 is Gospel to you because it came from the DWR, but another article from 2022 (last year) coming from the same place is lies?

Are you feeling ok?
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You're delusional about the amount of poaching that goes on.

Never seen someone in such a total state of denial about it.

It's intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer, that a tiny fraction of poachers are caught.
 
slamdunk said:
Here, I'll post it again since your amnesia is getting the best of you.

View attachment 121265
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I'm typing slow, so you can try to understand. Those are the numbers actually caught poaching.

That's a very different number, and a much smaller one, than the amount of poaching that takes place.

Go talk to a warden and ask them what percentage they think they catch.

Report back, if you dare.
 
BuzzH said:
You're delusional about the amount of poaching that goes on.

Never seen someone in such a total state of denial about it.

It's intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer, that a tiny fraction of poachers are caught.
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Lmao???
You're killin me....

Again, explain how the 1992 DWR post is gospel but 2022 is lies?

I know the answer already......because it doesn't fit your unsubstantiated agenda, that's why.
 
slamdunk said:
Lmao???
You're killin me....

Again, explain how the 1992 DWR post is gospel but 2022 is lies?

I know the answer already......because it doesn't fit your unsubstantiated agenda, that's why.
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Ask a warden what percentage of poaching they catch.

You're in some serious denial.
 
BuzzH said:
I'm typing slow, so you can try to understand. Those are the numbers actually caught poaching.

That's a very different number, and a much smaller one, than the amount of poaching that takes place.

Go talk to a warden and ask them what percentage they think they catch.

Report back, if you dare.
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It was 1992 Buzz......
Care to educate us on if those were actual convictions or estimates since you're so adamant about it?

I see an article about "Now", these current times, 2022 last years report.....179 deer poaching convictions.

Somehow your brain (or moreso, finger)is saying there are 22,821 unreported or non conviction poachings currently taking place in Utah.

Oh boy........?‍♂️
 
slamdunk said:
It was 1992 Buzz......
Care to educate us on if those were actual convictions or estimates since you're so adamant about it?

I see an article about "Now", these current times, 2022 last years report.....179 deer poaching convictions.

Somehow your brain (or moreso, finger)is saying there are 22,821 unreported or non conviction poachings currently taking place in Utah today.

Oh boy........?‍♂️
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Convictions are likely 3 percent or less of the amount actually poached. Wardens will tell you the same thing.

Do that math and tell me Utah only experienced 179 deer poached...

Unbelievable, because it is.
 
BuzzH said:
www.gameandfishmag.com

Assessing the 'Dark Figure' of Poaching in America - Game & Fish

The Boone and Crockett Club aims to quantify wildlife crimes—and their hidden costs—through a new program.
www.gameandfishmag.com www.gameandfishmag.com

If only obviously...
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Now you're comparing Utah's poaching numbers with an article about Kentuckys whitetail numbers?
Good lord.....

"3% are caught in the bluegrass state"

Do you realize there are One Million Whitetail deer in Kentucky?

How many deer in Utah or even Wyoming?

I can't believe I am actually even entertaining this nonsense.
 
You are quoting from a news article that is 30 plus years old and is a very poorly written article. It was hard to distinguish how the writer was getting her information.
Yes, Buzz, there was more than 179 deer poached last year, but 23000, not a chance.
If you really believe that Wyoming is better than Utah when it comes down to poaching, then I got some ocean front property in Wyoming to sell you.
Sounds like someone is in denial, and his name is Buzzh.
 
slamdunk said:
Now you're comparing Utah's poaching numbers with an article about Kentuckys whitetail numbers?
Good lord.....

"3% are caught in the bluegrass state"

Do you realize there are One Million Whitetail deer in Kentucky?

How many deer in Utah or even Wyoming?

I can't believe I am actually even entertaining this nonsense.
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Ask a Utah warden what percentage of poaching they catch.

I would suspect less than 3% of the animals poached in Utah result in any kind of conviction.

You can argue with your wardens and the national statistics compiled by the Boone and Crockett club.

It's no wonder wildlife numbers are continuing to slide when major problems with poaching are ignored.
 
notdonhunting said:
You are quoting from a news article that is 30 plus years old and is a very poorly written article. It was hard to distinguish how the writer was getting her information.
Yes, Buzz, there was more than 179 deer poached last year, but 23000, not a chance.
If you really believe that Wyoming is better than Utah when it comes down to poaching, then I got some ocean front property in Wyoming to sell you.
Sounds like someone is in denial, and his name is Buzzh.
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You have no idea how many were poached.
 
slamdunk said:
No Buzz, put your Bud Lights down, it's a school night.
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I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...

If 1% are caught, there were 17,900 deer poached in Utah last year, which is very likely.

I'll make a phone call tomorrow and get in touch with a Utah warden, since you're afraid of what they'll tell you.
 
BuzzH said:
I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...

If 1% are caught, there were 17,900 deer poached in Utah last year, which is very likely.

I'll make a phone call tomorrow and get in touch with a Utah warden, since you're afraid of what they'll tell you.
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Buzz you won't even acknowledge that you used 1992 article, why in the world would I accept anything you say.
 
Just for my own personal enjoyment in this…

If 179 is equal to 3% that equates to roughly 6k deer a year. Even if 179 is 1% that would be roughly 18k deer.

So, while either of those are significant numbers, that we could all agree on. The 2300 mountain lions still kill far more deer then the poachers.
 
DBG3285 said:
Just for my own personal enjoyment in this…

If 179 is equal to 3% that equates to roughly 6k deer a year. Even if 179 is 1% that would be roughly 18k deer.

So, while either of those are significant numbers, that we could all agree on. The 2300 mountain lions still kill far more deer then the poachers.
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I could believe 6000
 
BuzzH said:
I'll help you out since common sense and basic math are difficult in Utah...

If 1% are caught, there were 17,900 deer poached in Utah last year, which is very likely.

I'll make a phone call tomorrow and get in touch with a Utah warden, since you're afraid of what they'll tell you.
Click to expand...

Try the one in Price
 
Classic Buzz.
Tries to imply slam supports poaching.

Gets nailed for using an article older than his Wyoming residency.

Somehow manages to not Google poaching in his own state.

Spins into math, neglecting the math part of how many deer 2300 cats would kill(30 a year per cat is 69,000 deer).

Now he's going to call the DWR, ask a random warden a question on which it's a guess, then try to pass that as a fact.

He's a whole day into desperately trying to grasp credibility because as usual, he got out ahead of his skis, and thought no one would actually look at the article.

Anyone notice he's the head of BHA Wyoming? BHA ain't exactly pro predator hunting.
 
notdonhunting said:
I could believe 6000
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I doubt 1% of poachers are caught.

Curiously enough, the stats posted by B&C state that the illegal take of wildlife likely is equal to or exceeds legal take.

Utah has been killing on average 26,000 or so deer a year. If 1% are caught that's 18000 deer a year poached in Utah.

In a surprise to no one except those living in denial, that's approaching the legal harvest.

Sad reality.
 
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Sure glad there's no poaching in Wyoming!!

Oh wait......one single guy wiped out almost as many as utah had convictions last year.....?
 
BuzzH said:
I doubt 1% of poachers are caught.

Curiously enough, the stats posted by B&C state that the illegal take of wildlife likely is equal to or exceeds legal take.

Utah has been killing on average 26,000 or so deer a year. If 1% are caught that's 18000 deer a year poached in Utah.

In a surprise to no one except those living in denial, that's approaching the legal harvest.

Sad reality.
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1% of 26000 is 18000
I am slow, but how did you figure this equation?
 
Can anyone explain how Buzz went from claiming slamdunk was supporting poaching, to him posting an article from 1992, thinking no one would notice(freaking Hossblur crushed him on that one???) then trying to use a 30yr old article to contradict an actual dwr post, then trying to compare even bad numbers(23,000?) to the numbers cats would kill, then he's gonna call someone for an opinion, to back his bad numbers, and now he can't do math.

What's next? Challenging math? Gonna call a random mathematician?

Just trying to keep up, and that's before I go sit on the shitter and google Wyoming poaching to see, I'm guessing, Buzz is full of it on that topic also.
 
Well, I decided to actually call. Ogden DWR.

LEO says they catch about 10% in his opinion. But, that would include fish, and, claims of self defense that were either true or found untrue.

#1 Reason for such low catch rates is LAND SIZE vs eyeballs. So I'm sure a state like Wyoming with huge land mass vs low population is either as bad or worse.

But because I too do homework, I have a call into Casper to check on Wyoming to check Buzz assertion they do much better
 
Lions need to go, or else you'll end up like California with deer in steep decline. Now the pansies here want to reintroduce wolves and even Grizzlies! BTW, CA used to have a deer population of over two million! Back in 70's ranked no 2 in country for deer numbers. Now we have about 460,000.
 
@BuzzH
Perhaps Utah poachers are more tactful?

I mean if only 179 are caught out of your 23000 and you have a Wyoming resident who poached the town mascot in Bondurant and shows it off on a pedestal at the Hunt Expo in SLC where over 60,000 people will see it ?‍♂️

Just sayin.....
 
notdonhunting said:
1% of 26000 is 18000
I am slow, but how did you figure this equation?
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If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?

Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?

So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.

Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.

Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.

Its not that difficult.

I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.

That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
 
BuzzH said:
If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?

Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?

So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.

Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.

Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.

Its not that difficult.

I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.

That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
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You are using two different posts to come up with your illogical answer.
You are diffently not worth my time.
 
notdonhunting said:
You are using two different posts to come up with your illogical answer.
You are diffently not worth my time.
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Sorry you're confused, I broke it down to the most simple format I could think of. Also, I'm going out on a limb, but I'm thinking the word you're looking for is definitely?

As in, poaching is definitely a major problem in Utah.
 
The real answer is that there are entirely too many poachers and cougars. If they were both managed the right way, we would have many more critters on the hill than we do now.
And, not one wildlife entity, or individual, knows how many of either there really are out there.
 
BuzzH said:
Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.

But, it's your State, ignore away.
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I haven’t read all this and won’t, but BuzzH, a very simple yes or no answer here will suffice.

Are you saying poachers kill more deer in Utah than predators do?
 
BuzzH said:
If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?

Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?

So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.

Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.

Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.

Its not that difficult.

I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.

That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
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If game warden Buzz uses 30 year old data, adds his equation to 2022, his math is ridiculously flawed and a completely unsubstantiated and comical assumption.

Just a very simple observation ?
 
BuzzH said:
If Game Warden Frank knows that he catches only 1% of poachers, and he catches 179, how many did Frank not catch?

Or, in hunting terms, if Ann knows the drawing odds for a coveted tag are 1% and there are 179 total tags issued, How many total applicants does Ann compete against?

So, yes if the Utah Division of Wildlife, says they catch maybe 1% of poachers. They catch 179, that means that 17,900 they didn't catch is the level of poaching.

Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.

Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.

Its not that difficult.

I can say that of the 289 total deer, elk, and pronghorn I've killed 5-6 have been checked in the field by a Warden. That's when most every Warden in the State is out patrolling, during hunting season, with other hunters all over the place. I work in the woods 100+ days a year, I don't see a Warden once a year while working.

That all suggests to me that a very miniscule portion of poaching incidents are ever caught. Intuitively obvious even to the most casual of observers.
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Ummmm

Udwr says about 10%, but don't let an actual LEO upset your hole digging, carry on


Update, a very nice lady in Casper sent me to tge poaching coordinator in Casper. I left him a message, when he gets back, we can check Buzz math.
 
Keystone said:
Ummmm

Udwr says about 10%, but don't let an actual LEO upset your hole digging, carry on


Update, a very nice lady in Casper sent me to tge poaching coordinator in Casper. I left him a message, when he gets back, we can check Buzz math.
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Sorry I haven't posted on this yet.

As usual I keep roaming the wilds of America looking at big game.
 
S
Tristate said:
Sorry I haven't posted on this yet.

As usual I keep roaming the wilds of America looking at big game.
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So I'll throw a hitch in this.

What does Buzz call poaching?

What does Slam call poaching?

What does the news paper call poaching?

What does the DWR call poaching?


Maybe the reason that yall can't agree is the word is a mighty broad description. That's probably why the numbers do and don't make any sense.
 
Tristate said:
S

So I'll throw a hitch in this.

What does Buzz call poaching?

What does Slam call poaching?

What does the news paper call poaching?

What does the DWR call poaching?


Maybe the reason that yall can't agree is the word is a mighty broad description. That's probably why the numbers do and don't make any sense.
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What does WLH call poaching? Doesn't have to have a chopper involved either, but it helps.
 
Tristate said:
You scared to answer a question?
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You didn't ask me a question. You asked Buzz, Slam, the newspaper and the G&F. Having a hard time understanding your own posts??
Funny thing is, like you, I also live in Texas and have just as much (zero) impact on anything in Utah or Wyoming as you do. You just like to interject in threads to post random nonsense and ask general questions without EVER answering any questions posed to you. Not to mention you are an ardent supporter of poachers and outfitters that not only bend the law, they break them frequently while you cheer them on from the MM boards. Funny how you stayed silent on the chopper thread. I know you are just looking for their table scraps of taxidermy work, but your act is tiring.
 
JB1975 said:
You didn't ask me a question. You asked Buzz, Slam, the newspaper and the G&F. Having a hard time understanding your own posts??
Funny thing is, like you, I also live in Texas and have just as much (zero) impact on anything in Utah or Wyoming as you do. You just like to interject in threads to post random nonsense and ask general questions without EVER answering any questions posed to you. Not to mention you are an ardent supporter of poachers and outfitters that not only bend the law, they break them frequently while you cheer them on from the MM boards. Funny how you stayed silent on the chopper thread. I know you are just looking for their table scraps of taxidermy work, but your act is tiring.
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Damn. All that typing and adjusting your britches just to dodge a question.

I've never seen someone so scared of having a grown up conversation. If you are tired, float away.
 
Tristate said:
Still dodging. You said you were tired. Go on. Tuck yourself in and call it a night.
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Nah, I can go on busting you up all night. Why can't you ask the folks directly who you addressed in your original post? Scared of @BuzzH or @slamdunk ? Afraid they will hit you with actual facts from boots on the ground and not from SE Houston?
 
BuzzH said:
You forgot the period, it's how we end sentences, and the word you're looking for is "you're" or you are.

Always a good idea to get it right, if you're trying to not look dumb.
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You forgot the period; it's how we end sentences. The word you're looking for is you're as the contraction of you are.

It's always best to be precise so others will not interpret you as "dumb".

*fixed it for ya. Laffin'...
 
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Tristate said:
S

So I'll throw a hitch in this.

What does Buzz call poaching?

What does Slam call poaching?

What does the news paper call poaching?

What does the DWR call poaching?


Maybe the reason that yall can't agree is the word is a mighty broad description. That's probably why the numbers do and don't make any sense.
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Poaching to me is everything as described in the laws, same as it shouldbe to everyone.
Our individual views about those don't matter.

Welcome back Tri
 
There are so many ways deer die: winter kill, disease, hunting, poaching, predators, cars to name a few. Seems reasonable to manage them all as reasonably as possible.

The cost to catch a poacher goes up exponentially since the dumb ones get caught, the others will only get caught by serious costs for investigations and field time.

The cost to kill a cat is what, nothing?

Don't get me wrong- lions deserve their place in the wild too. But there is no comparison from a cost/benefit perspective in lowering deer mortality.
 
slamdunk said:
Poaching to me is everything as described in the laws, same as it shouldbe to everyone.
Our individual views about those don't matter.

Welcome back Tri
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Much thanks.

So a guy gets a ticket for not notching the tag when tagging his deer? He broke a game law. Is it poaching?
 
JB1975 said:
Nah, I can go on busting you up all night. Why can't you ask the folks directly who you addressed in your original post? Scared of @BuzzH or @slamdunk ? Afraid they will hit you with actual facts from boots on the ground and not from SE Houston?
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You still dodging. It's a horrible thing living in fear.
 
Tristate said:
You still dodging. It's a horrible thing living in fear.
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Never a drop of fear towards anything associated with a poaching supporter like you. Still no comment on your buddy’s chopper slaughter? Has he still not posted that big buck on Instagram? You and I both know why. Keep supporting the criminals Tri. And keep ducking the questions. You never man up.
 
BuzzH said:
Utah Division of Wildlife Stats say they kill 26,000 deer a year legally. Boone and Crocket studies and statistics say that illegal harvest equals or exceeds legal harvest.

Those statistics when analyzed together, would point to the data presented being pretty close. 26,000 legally killed deer, 17,900 poached. Legal harvest and illegal harvest are more likely than not, very close.

Its not that difficult.
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By your logic, Wyoming has an even bigger poaching problem. According to their harvest report for 2022, 29,315 deer were legally harvested. That must mean that many deer were also poached in Wyoming last year. Right?
 
BuzzH is absolutely correct. Do not set foot in Utah, it’s terrible here. What more evidence do you need. Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Arizona……….. better, hunting, more hunting, slower speeds, fewer poachers, more convictions, cheaper whiskey, fewer Mormons, cheaper housing, higher wages. Anywhere but Utah. Seriously, it sucks here. Californians that moved here have returned to California……. those are all facts……. honest facts.

Prove me wrong on any one of them.
 
JB1975 said:
Never a drop of fear towards anything associated with a poaching supporter like you. Still no comment on your buddy’s chopper slaughter? Has he still not posted that big buck on Instagram? You and I both know why. Keep supporting the criminals Tri. And keep ducking the questions. You never man up.
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I bet your a dodgeball champion at the daycare center.
 
hossblur said:
Yes
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Cool. Straight answer.

So you believe him to be a poacher and the deer in question was poached.

Now more than likely you will find people that disagree on your opinion. You might even find wildlife agencies that disagree on that. Not saying you're wrong. Just saying there are all types of people and groups, here and elsewhere, that may disagree.

Now here's where it gets tricky. So a game agency is trying to estimate the number of poached deer within their state. And they want to educate and provoke a response from law abiding hunters. They give you numbers that imply you are loosing an extra 23000 deer a year to poachers. We read the article and nothing is defined as to what a poacher actually is and they get to double count, IN SOME CASES, a poached deer and a legally harvested deer. THIS WAY WE ALL COME TO THE DECISION MORE DEER ARE DYING DUE TO HARVEST THAN THE STATE MANAGEMENT PLAN CAN HANDLE.

They get the excuse they need which passes the blame onto someone else for why the deer herds keep declining. And we don't realize a deer that was calculated into their harvest plan is now shuffled into the poached deer column. The deer is actually dead whether it was "poached" or not.
 
slamdunk said:
No, that shouldn't fall under "Wanton Destruction Of Protected Wildlife"
Click to expand...
See this info helps. You disagree, with Hossblur, on what defines poaching. And there is a giant spectrum of opinions on the word's definition.

Poaching is a very undefined term which means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. How is any state agency or newspaper man going to use it to calculate an accurate statistic? The answer is they can't.

But they can use it to provoke a response from honest sportsmen, and pass blame for their poor management decisions.
 
Tristate said:
Cool. Straight answer.

So you believe him to be a poacher and the deer in question was poached.

Now more than likely you will find people that disagree on your opinion. You might even find wildlife agencies that disagree on that. Not saying you're wrong. Just saying there are all types of people and groups, here and elsewhere, that may disagree.

Now here's where it gets tricky. So a game agency is trying to estimate the number of poached deer within their state. And they want to educate and provoke a response from law abiding hunters. They give you numbers that imply you are loosing an extra 23000 deer a year to poachers. We read the article and nothing is defined as to what a poacher actually is and they get to double count, IN SOME CASES, a poached deer and a legally harvested deer. THIS WAY WE ALL COME TO THE DECISION MORE DEER ARE DYING DUE TO HARVEST THAN THE STATE MANAGEMENT PLAN CAN HANDLE.

They get the excuse they need which passes the blame onto someone else for why the deer herds keep declining. And we don't realize a deer that was calculated into their harvest plan is now shuffled into the poached deer column. The deer is actually dead whether it was "poached" or not.
Click to expand...
Sounds awful hypothetical to me......
 
Tristate said:
See this info helps. You disagree, with Hossblur, on what defines poaching. And there is a giant spectrum of opinions on the word's definition.

Poaching is a very undefined term which means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. How is any state agency or newspaper man going to use it to calculate an accurate statistic? The answer is they can't.

But they can use it to provoke a response from honest sportsmen, and pass blame for their poor management decisions.
Click to expand...
I didn't "disagree" with Hoss, I didn't even see his response when I posted mine.
I gave my instant quick personal answer or view on the question, which was simply different than someone else's.
There's a difference....

No one is teaming up against you here on this......
 
@Tristate
If someone purposely left tag unnotched with the "intent" (key word in law) to re-use it, that is where it all changes.
And then it turns into "Wanton Destruction" and ie; Poaching.

Circumstances......
 
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OKay and that difference helps prove my point.
slamdunk said:
I didn't "disagree" with Hoss, I didn't even see his response when I posted mine.
I gave my instant quick personal answer or view on the question, which was simply different than someone else's.
There's a difference....

No one is teaming up against you here on this......
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
@Tristate
If someone purposely left tag unnotched with the "intent" (key word in law) to re-use it, that is where it all changes.
And then it turns into "Wanton Destruction" and ie; Poaching.

Circumstances......
Click to expand...
The hair splitting doesn't matter to the state or the newspapers. They just need the numbers to influence us.
 
Tristate said:
The hair splitting doesn't matter to the state or the newspapers. They just need the numbers to influence us.
Click to expand...
I will disagree with you on this though.
It most definitely DOES matter to the state, not so much to newspapers.

The state has to prove "Intent", newspapers do not.

What are the circumstances on the un notched tag?
 
slamdunk said:
I will disagree with you on this though.
It most definitely DOES matter to the state, not so much to newspapers.

The state has to prove "Intent", newspapers do not.

What are the circumstances on the un notched tag?
Click to expand...
You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.

But for a bunch of sportsmen on an internet forum jabbing back and forth and a newspaper article for the public to read the only thing that matters is the provoked emotion and suckering all of us into an argument.
 
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Tristate said:
You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.

But for a bunch of sportsmen on an internet forum jabbing back and forth and a newspaper article for the public to read the only thing that matters is the protocol emotion and suckering all of us into an argument.
Click to expand...
Got it ?
 
Tristate said:
You are missing my point. Of course it matters to the state in a legal process.

But for a bunch of sportsmen on an internet forum jabbing back and forth and a newspaper article for the public to read the only thing that matters is the protocol emotion and suckering all of us into an argument.
Click to expand...


I feel like I'm the only one who ACTUALLY read the article Buzz posted. The 23,000 was based off an Leo guessing for every animal legally killed, one is poached.

Then in that poaching category was group hunting, where tags were used.

So, because neither the resident genius of Wyoming, nor Texas, do any research, we made huge tag cuts in the era, followed by draws. Doing that cut down a bunch on buying the wife a tag on the opener after a deer got shot. While I'm sure it still happens, it's not the 90's anymore.

So yeah. Ain't a snowballs chance 23,000 deer, 6000 elk, 100 moose, 25 buffalo are poached here yearly, as the article suggests happened in 92'.

If you Google Utah poaching, this article is numerous pages deep, meaning Buzz had to really search to find something to back his big yap.

I'm surprised a 92' article made it to the interwebs.
 
SureShot said:
By your logic, Wyoming has an even bigger poaching problem. According to their harvest report for 2022, 29,315 deer were legally harvested. That must mean that many deer were also poached in Wyoming last year. Right?
Click to expand...

A better question is: by what metric is B&C using to determine that just as many deer are poached as legally taken? Do they know this for sure, and, if they know, why have they not reported them to the various LE agencies over game management?

My guess is that 1) the comment made by B&C was mis-stated, 2) it really pertains to the total poached is over time and overall total now equals that of legal kills in a single year, or 3) BuzzH is wrong, as usual.
 

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