A few 4th seasons cut

[ColoradoOak]

Looks like CPW is eliminating the 4th season deer hunt in units 10, 41, 42, 421, 61 and 62.

 

[tailchasers]

I know unit 10 and not any of the others and I am glad to see the CPW pull the plug there. The herd in 10 is struggling bad and needs a break. Good call CPW.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."

 

[Paul_Crawford]

Good. In my opinion, all 4th season hunts should be stopped. pc

 

[Bocephus]

If the odds are bad now wait till all these guys chasing a 4th season tag in these unit jump ship to other units haha I may die before I ever hunt a rut hunt in Colorado

 

[BeanMan]

Good job CPW.

 

[jd332001]

great job cutting those 4th season hunts. I know in 41,42 and 421 it needed to be done. The numbers in those units are so far down its pathetic. see about half the number of deer that I use to see as little as 5 years ago. spend a ton of time in these units on summer and winter range and they are way down. On the winter range it is particularly bad as now the elk have taken over most of the old deer wintering grounds. not to highjack the post but this has been bothering me the last 2-3 years as i have seen numbers decline.

anyone familiar with the reasoning behind the 2009 revision to the DAU objective for deer numbers. I read the DAU plan all the way through and the biologists report only notes that there is strong evidence to bring the deer herd down from "status quo" of 27-29k deer to 17-23k deer post hunt(if memory serves me)????? This is after most folks that were surveyed (mule deer foundation, forrest service etc.) were on board (recommended) to leave levels the same.

Meanwhile from 2006 to 2010 post hunt objectives have taken a drastic decline from 33k to around 20k. also in that time frame doe tags were increased from 1155 to 1700 (including possibility of doe being killed on es archery tags). To make matters worse the corresponding (close) elk DAU has increased in post hunt numbers from 11,490 to 20,430. I have read a lot of biologists studies on the effect of elk on deer but is really hard to believe that there is minimal competition between the two when all i see is elk on the traditional deer wintering range???

i have sent the DOW 3 emails and made several attempts to have someone explain to me the reasoning behind the drastic change in the DAU plan without any recontact. Just wondering some of your thoughts on the subject, beanman i know u spend a lot of time in these units are u seeing the same thing??????

i guess im done complaining for now.

josh

 

[NickJ1980]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]Josh,
I was confused at first, but now I see what you're saying. The following is from the updated plan, page iii. http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCollectionDocuments/DOW/Hunting/BigGame/DAU/Deer/D-12DAU.pdf

2009 POPULATION SIZE OBJECTIVE REVISION
In both 2005 and the recent revision process, most stakeholders indicated that deer population size and composition are at acceptable levels. The majority of respondents were satisfied with current management and the general consensus was to maintain the status quo population size and increase the buck: doe ratio objective. Recent improvements to population estimation techniques and refinements to computer modeling procedures have substantially decreased estimates of the D-12 deer population over previously-used models. The improved models have estimated the D-12 population size at roughly 20,000 animals after the 2008 hunting season. The population size objectives set in 2006 reflected general satisfaction with the size of the
deer herd in D-12 at the time. Therefore, a revision of the population size objective will allow the CDOW to continue managing this herd at accepted levels. The revision will
incorporate the more accurate population estimate while keeping the population objective in line with the public demand to maintain the deer population size at current levels.
Therefore, during the 2009 revision process, the CDOW suggested that the objective range be decreased to 16,000 ? 24,000 deer. There is both internal and external support to decrease the size of the objective range, and to maintain the population at current levels. The recommended post hunt population size objective is 17,000 ? 23,000 deer.

 

[jd332001]

sorry for confusing sentences. sometimes i type too quickly and forget crap. i see that after i went back and looked at what i posted. bare with me.

thanks for posting that nick. am i just reading it wrong or something? it seems to me that when they say that they have "improved population techniques and refined computer modeling procedures which has substantially reduced deer post hunt population numbers" they mean that this is just allowing the DOW to ignore the bad winter of 07 and lower the DAU objective to 16-23k???? sounds like a load of crap to me. i spend a lot of time in these units and overall numbers are way down. in my opinion if they dont lower the doe tags its gonna be a downward spiral. i still think there is more too the elk/deer interaction/competition for winter range.

nick do u spend some time in these units throughout the year????? if so, what have you seen particularly is the last couple of years????

 

[ColoradoOak]

I guess I don't really understand why folks are so vehemently opposed to 4th season hunts. Tags are so extremely limited that even if harvest was 100% (which it rarely is) it is biologically insignificant. I like the fact that these hunts draw so many applicants with high points, making draw odds better for me in the earlier hunts.

The 2010 post-hunt population estimates for the herds listed above were:

Unit 10 - 3,690
Units 41,42,421 - 20,200
Units 61,62 - 20,220

2011 4th season tags issued were:

Unit 10 - 2
Units 41,42,421 - 27
Units 61,62 - 22

Number of 2011 4th season applicants were:

Unit 10 - 190
Units 41,42,421 - 340
Units 61,62 - 885

So 1,415 people applied for 51 tags in herds totaling 44,110. I just don't see how cutting the 4th season will make one bit of difference to the herds, but cutting those hunt codes are going to make other units/hunts more difficult to draw. I'd rather see more hunt codes and fewer tags per hunt. It gives people a choice of waiting longer for a "better" tag, or going hunting. Cutting doe tags, as they have already done in 3 of those units, would have a much bigger effect on the herds than cutting a handful of buck tags. JMO I really don't have a dog in the fight, because I don't hunt the 4th season.

 

[tx_packmule]

Where we hunt I've seen a sharp increase in elk numbers and a sharp decline in deer numbers. Ideally they should want to up doe tags and greatly decrease buck tags to even out the ratios left from post rut bucks getting the worst of '07. (while upping elk tags across the board of course). Would be a long rebound, but could spare a lot of run down bucks trying to breed a large doe population should another bad winter hit soon.

 

[NickJ1980]

Sent you a PM rather than completely derailing the topic. Short answer--I don't think the DOW is ignoring the fact that numbers are down, and I spend a lot of time in all 3 units and agree that there were a lot more deer a few years ago. The doe tag situation is unfortunate since so much of the winter range is private hay fields and a lot of migrating deer pay the price instead of the resident herds that cause most of the damage throughout the year. Maybe an early October game-damage hunt would be a better alternative.

 

[NickJ1980]

I think you put it in perfect perspective on those units and I agree that it's biologically unnecessary. From my limited understanding, I'm surprised they cut these and left the really struggling units like 44 alone.

 

[jd332001]

i agree that the 27 tags getting cut wont make a huge difference but the drastic decline i have seen in these three units any cut can help. anyways thanks for replys guys.

 

[ColoradoRam]

Co oak could you post a link? Thanks

 

[ColoradoOak]

Here is the agenda for the upcoming WC meeting on Thursday. If you click on "Ch. 2 - Big Game" under final adoption, all of the changes they are considering are in red. Those hunt codes have been struck.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/ParksWildlifeCommission/Archives/2012/Pages/January12-13_2012.aspx

 

[HuntinFoo]

I dont understand why any state or unit hunts does. It has a bad effect on almost everywhere it is done. I hunted in 41, 42, and 421 two years ago and it was a freaking joke with all the doe hunters, I think there were as many does being killed as bucks. They take away 27 tags from a 4th season buck hunt, but are killing hundreds if not thousands of does in the other seasons, MAKES SENSE TO ME HAHAHA. Sometimes I wonder how, and who makes these decisions and how far up there butt there head is to come up with them. I am afraid that the way it is looking in most western states deer hunting is on its way to the end, if they dont make some big changes soon.

 

[SanJuan]

4th season has been a scapegoat since they started releasing tags. There is only 2 days between 3rd season and 4th but people still think all the big bucks are dying in 4th even though the DOW is putting out well over 10 times as many tags for 3rd in most units.

The mountains, not the hills.

 

[SoleSearcher36]

ColoradoOak and SJS are right on the money. 4th season hunts are not the issue and eliminating them won't have an effect other than making the 2nd and 3rd tags harder to draw.

 

[Romulus]

Move 2nd earlier by a few days and cut it down to 6 days and then move 3rd earlier a few days and cut it to 5 days and opportunity could stay the same and there would be a good increase in the amount of older age class bucks. We will look and 2004-2007 will be the glory years we talk about. They wont be duplicated again but things could improve a bunch from where we are today with a few strategic cuts in season length and timing.

 

[MrDoe]

I say cut all of the 4th seasons and open 1st to deer hunting.

Kevin

 

[ColoradoOak]

So I decided to go through the list of 4th season hunts and see which units actually qualify for a 4th season hunt based on CPW's own criteria. I found that in 2011, there were 37 units that had 4th season hunts, but did not meet the criteria set by CPW for issuing 4th season tags, based on the spring 2011 buck:doe ratios. The 4th season hunt has been cut in 6 of those units for 2012. I also noticed that there were 14 units which qualified for a 4th season hunt but did not have one.

Despite the fact that so many people don't like 4th season hunts, not one person bothered to research the issue and go testify to the Wildlife Commission Thursday when they approved the 2012 hunt codes.