A-plus meeting albuquerque

N

nmbullfighter

Guest
This Saturday the Game Commission will meet in Albuquerque at the Albuquerque Marriot. The address is 2101 Louisiana Blvd N.E. from 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. to discuss the Antelope Management proposals.

This is a very important meeting to attend. I don't want this post to turn into a argument or bashing fest..everyone knows who i represent but this has nothing to do with that. I have been reading posts and have been disgusted by what i have read from fellow sportsmen and new mexicans and have chosen not to get into the cat fight but i feel i must say something. Use some common sense people..look at the facts and think about it for a minute..

The a-plus system is not the greatest, nor are a lot of things in this state but sometimes you can only work with what you have..and it comes down to money and land in this fight..and we know the state doesn't have money and we know that a lot of people hate landowners.. but the fact is most of antelope habitat consists of PRIVATE LAND. There has to be a balance of public draw hunters vs private land hunters and access..

The private land owners give sportsmen access and a chance to hunt on their land in return for private land tags that they can sell to whoever for how ever much. And while this may seem wrong to most people, IT WORKS

and yes in 2009, 1306 tags went to residents in THE DRAW but overall for all tags for the year 2263 went to residents and 2373 went to non-residents..thats 49% tags going to residents

but you know something that will not work?? OPTION 3

Yet everybody is on the band wagon to support it and most probably don't even know what they are supporting.. Im sure we have all heard the pitch at all the sporting shows and events.. " sign this petition to get new mexico residents more antelope tags!" right? and we see people line up to sign something that will in turn screw new mexico hunters ( the so called people they are trying to help)

everybody thinks with option 3 that they will draw a tag, well thats great, good job! but where are you going to hunt??

so you get out your map and find public land in the NE corner of the state..AWESOME!! so opening morning there you are..you got your antelope tag in pocket and your ready to hunt BUT WAIT!! SO ARE 6000 OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SAME AREA!!

AND LOOK!! there go all the antelope on public land hauling ass to private land where you cant touch them!!

But hey atleast you can say you drew a tag!!

and to those people that think the land owners will crack and have to let hunters on their land because they are over ran with antelope...HA HA HA HA..Get real!!

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS???

read these scenarios, cause they are the truth and its what will happen if we stupidly let this option 3 get passed...Option 1 is our best out of the 3

http://wildlife.state.nm.us/documents/documents/Opt3Anal_08232010.pdf

http://wildlife.state.nm.us/documents/documents/AntRevEst_08232010.pdf
 
i was for option 3 till i pulled up one crucial document. that is the 2010 landowners with authorizations lisy from the nmdgf website.

do privat landowners get more tags? yes! why? heres why...

lets say a landowner has 90000 deeded acres and 30000 acres of leased public grazing grounds. well the department gives 2 landowner tags and 1 public tag.

the tags are given based on the ratio of public to private. well guess what? most of those goats are on private anyways. that guy that draws that tag is now freely allowed to hunt that public plus 90000 acres of deeded. that relates to a quality hunt. wanna improve draw odds? make a sucessful antelope applicant have to wait 5 years before he can draw again. in 5 years for the se portion of nm they give out 400 tags i believe. 4000 people are applying for them. in 5 years 2000 people will have been cut out and draw odds just doubled. so much for having to wait 23 years for a tag.

im all for option 1. thats just me.


ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
option 1 will clearly state the land to tag ratio and will be a written document for how many tags the landowners get. it will also put more tags in the draw ( not many) by defining this ratio and some landowners who do not want antelope on their land or hunter have agreed to transplant and relocate antelope in the near future.

they are not perfect options, but out of the 3 choices..option 1 is the best bet
 
I have been told Option 1 will also greatly increase the amount of public land available to public tag holders, something the game dept. didn't clearly spell out.
 
Please go look at the options again. Option 3 has been expanded to include getting rid of the tags in 4 sub options. 3C has gained some momentum for those that like the way deer, barbs, bear, turkey is done now.

Anyone taking bets on the one that will win??? Either way the dept should telecast this one one on pay per view. Its going to be fun. Best get your seat reserved for this one. Ringside is $250/seat.
 
yes in 2009, 1306 tags went to residents in THE DRAW but overall for all tags for the year 2263 went to residents and 2373 went to non-residents..thats 49% tags going to residents
 
So Bull, where did the 70% come from that Oscar and Jeremy have been representing?

Looks like almost 1000 LO permits were purchased by residents. Dang that is way more than I would have thought.

I can't help but wonder what damage will be done to the federation when the facts really come out.
 
Jim Welles,

If you think that Option 1 is best that is your right, but please do not attack me personally with false information. NMWF has never said that 70 percent of licenses are going to non-residents. We have only pointed out that about 70 percent of licenses are issued as transferable authorizations and that this is the biggest factor in the large percentage (over half) of licenses going to non-residents.
In the early 70's about 80 percent of licenses were issued through the big game draw and about 90 percent of licenses were going to residents (this was with the same landownership we have now). Then a shift happened and less than 50 percent of licenses started being issued through the draw, down to about 30 percent today. That has been the major factor in more and more licenses going to non-residents.
Other western states have had the same pressures but have dealt with this issue by aggressively pursuing access programs and guaranteeing much more of the licenses for residents. Landowners and outfitters are still making money in those states, but more has been done to ensure opportunity for residents.
It is your right to speak up on whatever option you think is best for your business and other reasons. But please refrain from naming me and attacking me personally with false accusations.
NMWF are the ones who pushed for a more open system where everyone has some time to see different options and comment on them. Basically, after the Q/HD fiasc, we've been asking that everyone have a voice in the process.
I think that most sportsmen want better than 49 percent of the licenses and see other states doing a lot more for residents. What we are asking for is not unreasonable, and is critical to the future of hunting.
The future of hunting is not just in the rich, traveling hunter. We need to make sure the common man and woman can hunt or there won't be the support for hunting and wildlife in the future. In America, hunting is supposed to be for everybody and we are just asking our Game and Fish Department to look at other states as models and start doing better by residents. There are good staff at our Department that will be able to do the job, if allowed to.
I'm not aware of any other state where a majority of big game licenses are going to non-residents.
Right now we have about 17 million acres of private land and about 17 million acres of public land in antelope habitat that is not being hunted through the A-PLUS system (according to NMDGF).
So clearly it is not a good system for all landowners either.
In Montana, where there is a straight draw (same as Option 3) and a higher percentage of private land in antelope habitat, 99 percent of private land gets hunted for antelope--and that's according to a study conducted with Colorado State University.
There are solutions, it is possible to implement a better system for residents, and NMWF will keep on asking and pushing for improvement.
If that bothers you, fine, but I just ask that you try to keep it civil and truthful.

Thanks,

Jeremy Vesbach
NM Wildlife Federation
 
Mr. Vesbach,

I applaud your effort's and your concern!

Option 9.999b is the best!

The bottom line is, the residents' of this state are tired of getting screwed!

Greedy landowners and outfitters have made a truck load of money from this system. It is a complete joke!

Jim Welles, is worried about losing $$$$! He is nothing more then a used car salesman! He does not care about wildlife!

Mr NM Wapiti Bob, is worried he will not be able to buy a landowner permit for unit 34 for public lands!

It will be interesting to see, what happens!
 
Mr. Vesbach-

Thank you for your clarification. I believe I asked a question. Was not a personal attack. From what I hear after the meetings and what has been construed after the radio address, the 70% has been turned into the number going to NR's.

Could you please show me the calculation to get to 70%?

Jim
 
Jim,

You did not just ask a question. You stated that "You should quickly note that the 70% the NMWF is stating is incorrect."

But now that you have asked a question, I'm happy to do the calculation for you:

Go to the Department website. A few days ago a table was posted that shows licenses sold and authorizations issued.

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/documents/documents/A-PLUSLicenseHistory.pdf

For the 2009-2010 license year, there were 1,656 draw licenses sold and 4,038 transferable authorizations issued. So the transferable authorizations were 70.9 percent of the total.

One thing to note is that there were 785 transferable authorizations that were not even used, but Option 1 would give out even more.

Also note the calculation that NM Bullfighter used left out the second table. Of the total tags sold that he referenced there were actually 2,286 total to residents and 2,471 to nonresidents, which is 48 percent to residents. The numbers he used are not a statewide total but leave out 3 AMU's.

Again, you may not like the push for more resident opportunity, but we aren't going away, so might as well be civil.

If you have any more questions, just ask. Everything NMWF does is out in the open in the Outdoor Reporter and on our website, but I'm also happy to answer a question.

Jeremy Vesbach
 
Jeremy-

There are reasons for not converting. One of the ranches we deal with gets 4 authorizations. There is no way that ranch can handle killing 4 bucks. The antelope are not there. We trash can 3 because from a management and ethical standpoint. If they are not there you should not be selling the trespass.

As a point of clarification as well, I have not stated that I am "personally" for option 1 as you infered. From a standpoint of getting more opportunity to the public, I'm all for that which option 1 does. Please note in other posts on this site, I am "personally" for 3C. It gets the transferrable issue gone totally and I have not heard or seen issues from any faction with regard to deer other than trespass.

Jim
 
Oh ya-thanks for clarifying your calculation.

I calulated them as sold not total issued. Sold has been running 65-68% with 1000 of them going to residents.

Jim
 
>Jeremy-
>
>There are reasons for not converting.
>One of the ranches we
>deal with gets 4 authorizations.
>There is no way that
>ranch can handle killing 4
>bucks. The antelope are not
>there. We trash can 3
>because from a management and
>ethical standpoint. If they are
>not there you should not
>be selling the trespass.

The fact that 3 of those tags aren't used is a big concern because it is lost hunter opportunity... Also, if the animals aren't there then the hunter can be assigned a different ranch. This is another example of how the LO effectively owns the animals and can override anything that the Dept says is an acceptable harvest.


Personally, I think the lines have been drawn...

I think for alot of people the bottom line is that the Residents own the animals... and we should get at least 78%....
 
Jamaro-

So you'd go hunt the ranch knowing that they are not there for the sake of opportunity??

This certainly contradicts the application process and not be willing to apply for anything but the "best units" argument for elk. I have read many posts on here about folks not wanting to apply for so called "crappy units." So applying for the less demand unit would be OK as long as its for opportunity. If that is what you are saying, why so much discontent?

Jim
 
Again, don't try to muddy the waters.. FOCUS on Antelope... We both know that you can get reassigned a ranch if there are no legal animals on that ranch... A Resident is much more likely to take and be happy with any legal animal, while a NR wants a trophy class animal.. The Dept is managing trying to manage for opportunity while the rancher is try to manage for trophy class animals. Again it all comes down to the amount of money a rancher can charge for a tag.
 
Fair Enough.

Best of Luck tomorrow. Seats at the front have gone down in price while seats in back are going up. I guess folks want to be able to exit quicker if need be:)
 
Jeremy, welcome to Monster Muleys. Appreciate you giving us your perspective.

This has been a heated topic.

Several weeks ago, someone made a post claiming that NMWF was a sister organization of the Wildlife Federation that supports reintroducing wolves in the West and therefore NMWF supports wolves in the Western states as well.

It very well could have been just a cheap shot. Keep in mind this is the internet and anyone can pretty much post whatever.

However, could you put this to rest. What is NMWF's stance on reintroducing wolves in the west and especially in NM.
 
You guys are awesome, never seen so many people contradicting themselves. Reminds me of the French. Get me some popcorn.
We want opportunity and we want trophy's (We want cake and we want to eat it too!)
We don't want to give the land owners any incentives, even though they make new mexico what it is. Screw them, they will let us hunt on their land they just have to, and if not we can drink some beers and at least we will have a tag, even if therer aint any land to hunt.
All those land owner tags go to non-residents, so non-residents get over 50% of the tags! OOOPPPS new mexico residents actually bought 1000 tags, now what should we do? Stick to your guns. NEW mexicans are getting screwed, new mexicans are getting screwed. If we say it enough somebody will believe us.
Good luck getting through to the outdoor herald or whatever they are called, like trying to convince an Obama lover that he is bad for hunting and guns.
LOL
Just havin fun with it.
 
This is going to be pretty interesting! Curious to see what the outcome is gonna be! I can say this, most of the ranchers I know are not gonna take one permit and open their PRIVATE LAND to other hunters, there gonna shut everything down! I am with Jim, G&F should be selling this on pay per view!
 
It will be nothing but a ##### fest.

It's pretty obvious 3a and 3b aren't going anywhere. The blurb from the Dept pretty much says it.
If I was to bet on it, 3c would get my money. The public gets the increase in "opportunity" they want and the transferable LO tags go away. The Antelope are still primarily on private but that seems to be getting glossed over.

The end result of all this, NMWF gets an infusion of cash from donations, LO's make the same money as in the past but from trespass fees, those that buy LO tags pay the same money for trespass, and the public draw hunter gets a lot more opportunity to hunt.

Sounds like a win win situation for everybody.
 
Would like a answer to the wolf question too, because it don't matter a Damn if you change things and they bring in wolves they will then be the one's who get the most tags(animals).


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
From NMWF newsletter:

"But adopting new rules for A-PLUS may be difficult.
.................. That leaves New Mexico resident hunters with less than 25 percent of all available tags in recent years."

"New Mexico resident hunters strongly support allocating a higher percentage of tags through the big game draw. Over time, according to research by NMWF, the percentage of transferable tags allocated to landowners has increased substantially, from approximately 20 percent in the early 1970s to nearly 70 percent today."
 
All these landowners are Greedy....All they want is their free tags to make money and if they cant get them they will call up Game and Fish and say we need money because the wildlife is damaging my property and then we will have to cut a check to them that way.LO have been raping this state for years and not giving nothing back.If this is such a problem put up fenches keep the wildlife out.In most western states you have free range laws if you dont want animals in your property you keep them out . Go back to ranching and growing crops.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-10 AT 04:54PM (MST)[p]Ya! Them LO are a bunch of greedy punks! Never mind the fact that there much better stewards of the land than the G&F EVER, EVER thought about being. Your right they need the money from their permits to help offset the cost they have in ranching and growing crops! Ya might wanna thank them for what they do instead of bashing them.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-10
>AT 04:54 PM (MST)
>
>Ya! Them LO are a
>bunch of greedy punks!
>Never mind the fact that
>there much better stewards of
>the land than the G&F
>EVER, EVER thought about being.
> Your right they need
>the money from their permits
>to help offset the cost
>they have in ranching and
>growing crops! Ya might
>wanna thank them for what
>they do instead of bashing
>them.

too late for that.
 
agreed Flanagan..sick and tired of people bashing land owners trying to get rich when they have NO clue what its like to be a land owner and the costs associated with it. They provide quality habitat and water for wildife at THEIR cost and they ask for some incentive (tags) in return and the tags are based on a ratio of bucks/acre. i think it is fair and i thank and applaud them for quality habitat and management .

The meeting is still going on..It went really smooth with no conflicts or arquements..huge turn out, i would say 300+ people with the major being landowners, outfitters and ranchers who all made very fair and valie points. Most were in support of option 1. only option 3 supporters were those associated with nm
wildlife federation.

Good discussion for the bear rules with Bear watch and the anti's questioning game and fishes numbers..
 
Give me some incetive tags - help ofset my cost to do ranching. Maybe the Government shold give every buisness $20 or $30 thousand dollars worth of natural resources to keep their buisness afloat.If these private land hunts and guides were affordable to the average Joe the complaints would be minimal.$15,000 for an elk hunt $5000 for antelope that is disgusting,base on the average New mexican annual income is pathetic.Yeah the LO provide habitat with adding food plots and water wells but they know that will get them extra tags and yeah that cattle will use also
 
Good Gosh! Where and the h&*$ are you hunting at that elk tags cost that much, and antelope too???????? You are way out there on that one, honestly do you have a clue??????? Sounds to me like you need to do more research.
 
I want more bull tags, and then I will run my cattle on a public lands!

These Cry Babies have been spoiled for too long!
 
The last time I checked, ranchers have to pay to run cattle on public land, I would think there using some of that money from the elk tags to pay that cost! Maybe the ranchers should just sell off all their cattle, get out of production agriculture all together, then they would not need to run cattle on public land and ask for more elk tags to offset costs. Some people have no idea what these individuals go through or do for the American Public! But hey, there crybabies just trying to make a living and serve you!
 
>The last time I checked, ranchers
>have to pay to run
>cattle on public land, I
>would think there using some
>of that money from the
>elk tags to pay that
>cost! Maybe the ranchers
>should just sell off all
>their cattle, get out of
>production agriculture all together, then
>they would not need to
>run cattle on public land
>and ask for more elk
>tags to offset costs.
>Some people have no idea
>what these individuals go through
>or do for the American
>Public! But hey, there
>crybabies just trying to make
>a living and serve you!
>


Flanagan...
I am not trying to attack you but I have been formulating some ideas on this...
These ranchers keep saying that they are a business and that they need to make money and that the tags are liquid cash... I get that... But say that Walmart is having issues with theft. Walmart will need to raise there prices or find some other product to sell to make the business profitable.. right? That is capitalism, that is truly the American way.. At no point does the State of NM give Walmart taxbreaks(subsidies), or even coupons for more TV's to sell... Right now we are artificially subsidizing ranchers with these tags so they can be profitable...
There are NO FREE MARKET principles with these tags

and do you think these people would give a dang about me if they weren't making money??? I don't think so... Sen. Ezell made that very clear this weekend...

BTW.. Yes I am totally willing to pay more for local beef.... I buy it from some hippies in the Mimbres... :)
 
It's the ranchers land. If they give more tags to the general public it still does'nt mean the ranchers are going to let you waltz on there property and kill an antelope. You will still have to buy the tag from F&W and then pay a tresspass fee.probably the same as just buying a land owner tag. I wouldn't let you hunt my land if you were not family or close friend. If you had prime elk land and I drew the tag would you let me come right in and hunt your property?
 
>It's the ranchers land. If
>they give more tags to
>the general public it still
>does'nt mean the ranchers are
>going to let you waltz
>on there property and kill
>an antelope. You will
>still have to buy the
>tag from F&W and then
>pay a tresspass fee.probably the
>same as just buying a
>land owner tag. I wouldn't
>let you hunt my land
>if you were not family
>or close friend. If you
>had prime elk land and
>I drew the tag would
>you let me come right
>in and hunt your property?
>


I agree.. it is the ranchers land and they can do whatever they want with it.. But the fact is that ranchers are getting a higher number of tags.. in some cases 4 to 1... and the crummy part is that over the years the number of LO tags as INCREASED while the number of PUBLIC tags has flatlined... yes you are right tresspass would need to be negotiated.. that is what bowhunters have been doing since day one... I have NOOO problem with that... but at least I would be able to hunt public land if I couldn't find a ranch to hunt..
 
If It Ain't Broke...

New Mexico has the best antelope hunting for numbers of trophy bucks. Has this happened by just dumb luck? No, in spite of all the cussing and discussing the fact is that the trophy bucks and the opportunity are there now. When one thousand landowner authorizations are bought by residents how can anyone complain about that.

Another fact is that the majority of antelope are on private land and the landowners are feeding all those mouths when they could be feeding more cattle instead. They also pay for grazing on public land. So what is the solution? Pay to fence and kill all native game so the is no competition to cattle for grass. Of course not. The rancher IS entitled to be compensated for allowing antelope on their private land. Ranchers and some outfitters have done a fantastic job managing antelope. Often times they do not kill every buck they could because it is best for the antelope. NO ONE is entitled to hunt the rancher's private land unless given permission.

The entitlement attitude could very well ruin what is arguably the best antelope hunting stat we have. If you want to hunt and don't draw a tag buy a landowner authorization and hunt! If it ain't broke don fix it and ruin it!

Just so you know, I am not a resident and I have hunted antelope twice in your great state on draw tags.
 
RE: If It Ain't Broke...

It is way out of balance. Besides doing away with the 12% outfitter welfare act, we should shift a small portion of LO tags to the public draw. Maybe just for kids for that portion. then let the LO ranch only tags hunt a week before public hunts. This will push some of the "feed devastaters:) onto public land to be better depredated. Oops, I forgot, its all about the money.
 
RE: If It Ain't Broke...

Yes it is their land! Ok but they do not own the wild animals that frequent it. Nor should they be able to keep out hunters from leased public lands, and they do! I don't feel like most that the aplus system is all bad. I feel the number of tags handed out to LO's needs to be capped and if you accept the tags you have to open your gates to the public hunters. And the jennings law needs to go!


I just call em as I see em!
 

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