A-plus proposals are out... In PIECES...

J

jamaro

Guest
Okay the proposals are out... You know that we were supposed to get 6 options.. Guess what last night they were published and there were only 2 Options.... ALL HELL broke loose on the Dept and Commission because neither option would be good for NM Sportsman... NONE..
Those were options 1 and 2...

SOOO Guess what a 3rd option showed up... FULL DRAW...

IMO this is the only acceptable option.. I will let you formulate your own ideas but we really need to put the pressure on and fight for our rights... NR are still getting 22% but NO LO TAGS unless they let hunters hunt there private land... and it is only ONE TAG.. NOT 50...

follow this link for more info..
www.thenewmexicosportsman.com

Jason
 
Jason, I cannot get on it from your web site for some reason.

Does anyone have a condensed version of the 3 options?

How is it decided which option is used?
 
I am all for option #3! I am sure there are just as many opposed. At least we have an opportunity to look at alternatives to the current system and everyone will hopefully be provided an opportunity to voice their opinion.
 
Basically option 3 is... 78-22 Full draw... the Sportsman will need to negotiate access unless the ranch is in a program like open gate... If the ranch is in a program than they get ONE tag..

J
 
Central NM access on private land will cost between $1500-$2000 per hunter if that one goes through.
 
yeah but at least you can get a tag... and have the possibly of hunting public land... and that is still cheaper than an antelope tag
 
Lets everyone just hunt antelope on public land and kill them all. Then the private land owners can raise access fee's to $3000 - $4000.
 
Great.. I drew a tag but there's not a danm animal out here to hunt.Sounds like an overcrowded camping trip to me..
 
With option 3 there will be alot of unused tags. Many guys will draw for an area that's mostly if not all private (most of the good antelope country) and not be able to afford a trespass fee.

They will probably then post on here whining about lack of access and how greedy the land owners are.
 
WAKE UP.......

then, the day will come that LOs will have issues with animals on their land, and who will they need help from?????? Yes, that would be the hunters!!!!

Either the ranchers are in it for domesticated animals or they are in it for the wildlife.....if they are in it for the wildlife.....you might as well make it a high fence operation!!!

I get so sick and tired about hearing how bad the ranchers have it and how much they do for the wildlife!!!!! What about how much the sportsmen does for the wildlife on taxes/fees from not only hunting licenses but hunting/fishing equipment!!! If it weren't for the hunters, it would be a pretty small defense against the animal activists!!! Ranchers would have less support against the wolves!!!

People fail to realize that we are in it together. People also fail to realize that one party has taken advantage of the other for quite some time and have gotten away with it. Have you ever heard of a depredation tag for cattle (not branded or tagged) on national forest land? Nope....why is that? We give out depredation tags for elk on private lands!!! We also let the ranchers slaughter the wildlife (when it benefits them)!!!

Did you know it is illegal to litter on national forest land? Guess the ranchers are immune to that as well right???? After all there are miles and miles of broke down fences, waterhole materials, etc. that has just been left out there.....now, that should be illegal!!!

How about off road travel.....you wanna talk about that with the ranchers on federal lands?????? What about leasing federal lands for grazing.....they get a deal, huh?

Talking about that, that is another issue which needs to be dealt with - land locked public property which is treated as if it was their own....thoughts?

Let's hear about how bad the ranchers have it......please tell me about how putting the tags back in the public hands will not only destroy hunting but the wildlife....

One word - EQUITY!!!!!

Go for option #3!!!!! Stand up and be heard. Email the G&F!!!! Show up at the meetings and speak!!!! Tell the politicians what you think about this!!!

Let's win this battle and take on depredation reform and then go reform elk LO tags. Let's revisit the 78/22 rule as well!!! Get in front of the State Land Office and tell them your thoughts about NM state lands.

Don't let the landowners and outfitters bully you!!! We've been getting the short end of the stick for quite some time!!!




JBone
 
One problem with option 3 - JENNINGS LAW.

LO will just shoot them and let them lay. Not all but there will be a slaughter.
 
Jennings Law... Remember is was almost repelled(sp) last year.... it just ran out of time.. So I think it will make it this year...
 
>Jennings Law... Remember is was almost
>repelled(sp) last year.... it just
>ran out of time.. So
>I think it will make
>it this year...


***********************************
Jason, do you think the only reason the Jennings law was not repealed was because it ran out of time??

I think that is something the ranching community needs to get repealed as it is a real black eye in the PR war.
 
A repealed jennings law and all public tags with 10%nr are the ticket. It will take two years of standing down the LO mafia. They will just let them live on there land and block us or go to jail for poaching. Once they realize we mean business, They will make tresspass fees adjusted to market. Again, I think we need G&F to have a pair on this issue. Politics are thick. I would pay 1k for tresspass fees on many ranches. We do not have near as many rich people here as other states. I cannot afford 4k for a tag. It is not morally right for an unrich man to hunt for a week at that price. JMO
 
I know lots of ranchers that don't even know what the Jennings Law is. They don't give a rats $%$ about that law when it comes to their 100% private ranch getting over grazed by prairie maggots. They would just pull the trigger and dig a hole. What will this help? Nothing other than reduce the number of antelope in New Mexico.

If they don't get $$ for the free loading prairie maggots they will take care of the problem themselves period. I know this because I work with lots of old ranchers that will deal with this problem the ranch way. If they get in trouble they will take it to court and the ranchers will win.

About me.

#1 - I'm a hunter that gets lucky every now and then and draws a tag and likes my odds the way they are.

#2 - I'm an outfitter that runs 100% private land hunts. Come from a small town that is made up of ranchers and have worked on most ranches in the area.

#3 - I have a day job so if things get rough I will just fold my outfitting business and the state will be out my gross receipts taxes and the non-res hunting licenses. Cutting non-res $$ would mean cut Field Officers because the game and fish couldn't afford to keep them on board. That would lead to more illegal hunting and over hunting public land.

Some changes need to be made but you would be kidding yourself if you thought just any old rancher will let you on his place without paying the same price that he gets for LO tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-10 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]After reading up about y'alls Jennings Law,it seems like that needs to be reworked to do away with some of the abuses. of the law.
Good Luck guys!
 
yeah the Jennings Law was a done deal.. We really had all the votes it was just a matter of running out of time... My only concern is that it was a hot issue last year because the video clips of that rancher killing all those animals had just come out.. BUT we need to still push it...
 
>I know lots of ranchers that
>don't even know what the
>Jennings Law is. They
>don't give a rats $%$
>about that law when it
>comes to their 100% private
>ranch getting over grazed by
>prairie maggots. They would
>just pull the trigger and
>dig a hole. What
>will this help? Nothing other
>than reduce the number of
>antelope in New Mexico.
>
>If they don't get $$ for
>the free loading prairie maggots
>they will take care of
>the problem themselves period.
>I know this because I
>work with lots of old
>ranchers that will deal with
>this problem the ranch way.
> If they get in
>trouble they will take it
>to court and the ranchers
>will win.
>
>About me.
>
>#1 - I'm a hunter that
>gets lucky every now and
>then and draws a tag
>and likes my odds the
>way they are.
>
>#2 - I'm an outfitter that
>runs 100% private land hunts.
> Come from a small
>town that is made up
>of ranchers and have worked
>on most ranches in the
>area.
>
>#3 - I have a day
>job so if things get
>rough I will just fold
>my outfitting business and the
>state will be out my
>gross receipts taxes and the
>non-res hunting licenses. Cutting
>non-res $$ would mean cut
>Field Officers because the game
>and fish couldn't afford to
>keep them on board.
>That would lead to more
>illegal hunting and over hunting
>public land.
>
>Some changes need to be made
>but you would be kidding
>yourself if you thought just
>any old rancher will let
>you on his place without
>paying the same price that
>he gets for LO tags.
>


Your exactly right. Many or even most ranchers will handle it the Rancher way. However, at least make it against the law to kill game animals out of season.

All you have to do is drive around in some of the desert units that are blm leased to see that the game is not there.

There are no easy fixes. Bottomline is if the perception of the ranchers is that they can make more money from game than not having game it will be there.
If they think there is no benefit to them, it will not be. It magically disappears in many cases.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-10 AT 01:11PM (MST)[p]It never made it out of committee from what I remember.

I see now that NMWF is asking to hold off any change to the APlus system until a thorough analysis of the effects can can be determined.

Evidently NMWF didn't bother to look at those possible effects before they started their campaign.
 
The way I see it is option three will work out great. The outfitters will lose out some because they are not guaranteed X number of tags they secure each year from the landowners. With option three landowners can still get there money from outfitters who have clients that draw hunts. No big deal in my mind. Outfitters who have clients interested in hunting antelope in NM just need to put clients in for the draw and hope for the best. They will have to advertise to successful applicants and look for new clients. NR draw odds will decrease and resident odds would increase. Just the way it should be. Access will be an issue for a lot of hunters because so many antelope are on private land, but there are ranches that would allow access to hunters that are willing to stop and ask permission. Not all landowners are greedy and want the money. Some do enjoy seeing hunters that are courteous enough to stop and visit and ask for permission. I think more access will be available then some may think, if a hunter is willing to get out and do a little searching for a place to hunt. Be courteous and respectful and the responses you get from some landowners may surprise you. Who knows if you develop a good enough relationship with a landowner you may have a place to hunt for years to come, providing you have a tag. I think we should give it a try.

I have been involved in the outfitting and guiding business for a few years now and it may hurt our business or even close our business. I am willing to sacrifice those guaranteed tags to give my friends, family, other sportsmen like myself more opportunities to hunt the state we live in. I will probably never be financially capable of going on guided hunts every year so it is to my benefit for the system to turn to option 3 from the options be presented.
 
Why was the Jenning law passed because of crop and property damage, If you have 300 head eating on your land you're losing feed for your cattle period. The lawsuits that ranchers and farmers filed cost the STATE alot of Money due to this fact.
Kind like a business in town, You have a certain amount of stuff in your store BUT do you let some-one come in and just take a little bit of your stuff without paying, Hey it's ok it the cost of doing Business right, the same thing is happening with deer,antlopes,elk eating grass or browse off the private land,They each just take a little.
Without the private land that ranchers make better NM wouldn't have a hunting paradise that it has now, Unimproved land just don't carry the feed a improved piece does.
Once I had 26 head of horses and my dad said to me Son for everyone of those horses I'm losing feed for 26 cows that are worth twice what those horses are worth, so what do you think we should do from a business stand point. Well I sold alot of Horses that summer, and that the way ranchers look at it NO MORE elk means more beefcows for them to run and sell.If those animals belong to the state those same ranchers will say let the state feed them we are done picking up the food bill.
So if they can't sell elk tags for a return they will move those elk out and make room for what does bring in money more cows,I don't know many ranchers who will let any animal(wild) bring on a forecloser of there way of life.

BullBreath
I love that you're passion about what you dream will happen, But I think it will about a 180 degree turn around from where you think it will end up. Me I hope like hell you're right and nothing will change in how those ranchers operate(selling trespass rights instaed of tags) in regards to the wildlife you see on their ranches.But I have seen those same tough SOB's that did alot of hard years of ranching with no help get by, I think most will do so again, put them in a corner and you might not like how they fight the A-PLUS thing.Jenning law or not they wouldn't be crippled by the State, It will just mean more lawsuits and bigger pay-out to those have the huge ranches because they can claim more damage.
So saying the ranchers need the hunters to take off animals in real life just don't happen.
A plus it will hurt the small rancher a hell of lot more then the 20-30 thousand acres guys.
If those small ranchers have to sell out who do you think buys up those small ranches, Bigger ranchers or worse yet Developers.
Seen this happen in South dakota with the small farmer they had to sell out and now a bunch Corp's owns most of it now.

But if anyone thinks they will have those ranchers over a barrel wake up and smell the rose's I think hell will have a huge snowstorm in it before you see them ranchers asking for hunters to please come out to the ranch and shoot a few elk off it so I can graze more cattle for a small trespassing fee.(and someday my train will coming)Not in this lifetime.


They might talk funny and wear a big hat,BUT They don't have any trouble getting a ELK tag every year so they can hunt. LOL
Now those who don't have a ranch can't draw a tag, I wonder if there something to it. I know those greedy SOB's ranchers.

Me I like my rancher friends, they are the salt of the earth coming fighting time I don't have to look over my shoulder to see if they are there backing me,it's a given they are right next to me.

Wish a had 40 arces in NM so I could put in watertank and get a tag.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I wonder what Percentage of elk never go on private ranches to feed or drink and I don't mean once or twice but all the time thing. Be kind of cool to know how that works.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I wonder what percentage of landowners have lived on the land longer than the wildlife? How many of these people didn't know the wildlife was calling this land home LONG before they were even a glimmer in their mommys eyes? And if a lo shoots one animal nail them with the law to the max! If they want the animals controlled hunters will be the tool to get the job done! I too have worked on a cattle ranch in northern az years back, never heard him ##### one time about the deer or elk or antelope, not once! And just let it be known that the cattle were more destructive out there than any other animal period!


I just call em as I see em!
 
I have 140ac and two tanks and the fence is to keep the range cattle out,the antelope and elk come pretty regular now that the range is recovering.Some deer showing too.A neighboring rancher who gets tags and $ said,"Elk whern't here 11 yrs ago",you can have ours...but I see petroglyphs with elk on the mesas.This was Apache and Zuni hunting grounds for a long time.There has to be a happy medium or some of these ranchers will take matters into their own hands.JMO
 
>Why was the Jenning law passed
>because of crop and property
>damage, If you have 300
>head eating on your land
>you're losing feed for your
>cattle period. The lawsuits that
>ranchers and farmers filed cost
>the STATE alot of Money
>due to this fact.
>Kind like a business in town,
>You have a certain amount
>of stuff in your store
>BUT do you let some-one
>come in and just take
>a little bit of your
>stuff without paying, Hey it's
>ok it the cost of
>doing Business right, the same
>thing is happening with deer,antlopes,elk
>eating grass or browse off
>the private land,They each just
>take a little.
>Without the private land that ranchers
>make better NM wouldn't have
>a hunting paradise that it
>has now, Unimproved land just
>don't carry the feed a
>improved piece does.
>Once I had 26 head of
>horses and my dad said
>to me Son for everyone
>of those horses I'm losing
>feed for 26 cows that
>are worth twice what those
>horses are worth, so what
>do you think we should
>do from a business stand
>point. Well I sold alot
>of Horses that summer, and
>that the way ranchers look
>at it NO MORE elk
>means more beefcows for them
>to run and sell.If those
>animals belong to the state
>those same ranchers will say
>let the state feed them
>we are done picking up
>the food bill.
>So if they can't sell elk
>tags for a return they
>will move those elk out
>and make room for what
>does bring in money more
>cows,I don't know many ranchers
>who will let any animal(wild)
>bring on a forecloser of
>there way of life.
>
>BullBreath
>I love that you're passion about
>what you dream will happen,
>But I think it will
>about a 180 degree turn
>around from where you think
>it will end up. Me
>I hope like hell you're
>right and nothing will change
>in how those ranchers operate(selling
>trespass rights instaed of tags)
>in regards to the wildlife
>you see on their ranches.But
>I have seen those same
>tough SOB's that did alot
>of hard years of ranching
>with no help get by,
>I think most will do
>so again, put them in
>a corner and you might
>not like how they fight
>the A-PLUS thing.Jenning law or
>not they wouldn't be crippled
>by the State, It will
>just mean more lawsuits and
>bigger pay-out to those have
>the huge ranches because they
>can claim more damage.
>So saying the ranchers need the
>hunters to take off animals
>in real life just don't
>happen.
>A plus it will hurt the
>small rancher a hell of
>lot more then the 20-30
>thousand acres guys.
>If those small ranchers have to
>sell out who do you
>think buys up those small
>ranches, Bigger ranchers or worse
>yet Developers.
>Seen this happen in South dakota
>with the small farmer they
>had to sell out and
>now a bunch Corp's owns
>most of it now.
>
>But if anyone thinks they will
>have those ranchers over a
>barrel wake up and smell
>the rose's I think hell
>will have a huge snowstorm
>in it before you see
>them ranchers asking for hunters
>to please come out to
>the ranch and shoot a
>few elk off it so
>I can graze more cattle
>for a small trespassing fee.(and
>someday my train will coming)Not
>in this lifetime.
>
>
>They might talk funny and wear
>a big hat,BUT They don't
>have any trouble getting a
>ELK tag every year so
>they can hunt. LOL
>Now those who don't have a
>ranch can't draw a tag,
>I wonder if there something
>to it. I know those
>greedy SOB's ranchers.
>
>Me I like my rancher friends,
>they are the salt of
>the earth coming fighting time
>I don't have to look
>over my shoulder to see
>if they are there backing
>me,it's a given they are
>right next to me.
>
>Wish a had 40 arces in
>NM so I could put
>in watertank and get a
>tag.
>
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".


Gator....Well said
 
is it just me or do we have some real hard headed pieces of work here or anti-hunters, thinking, that cutting out the ranchers will help the wildlife populations somehow, that taking 10 percent more of the tags will up the resident odds significantly, that cutting out non-residents will help the state economy somehow. I am actually starting to think these SOB's are anti-hunters trying to stir the pot, as their proposals make little sense??
 
Did some math. Using conservative numbers. Resident Elk tags would go up to $375 even if you pushed NR up to $950. This is saying that we need the same dollars to fund the G&F dept as we have now. Did not run antelope but am sure that the Resident fees would go up the same percentage which would put them around $260.

Hell you guys lets just push for this increase in tag costs, I bet the odds will go up two fold just doing that. G&F will have enough money to pay off some more LO's, hire more officers, patrol more. The number of hunters will drop and be on a steeper decline than we are now.

Then the anti's can come in and eliminate hunting for good. Because we will not have the numbers of hunters we have now.

Woo Hoo.

Think real hard what you want!!!!!
 
Ok I tried or "wanted" I should say to pay the 750 and apply as a nrn g&f said no way! Ok but nm g&f has their heads far far far up their butts! How is it az offers less tags for all species (not by much), charges about the same, has a 10% cap on nr, and can afford to put 20 times the amount of officers in the field as nm! Nm has 1 officer working 5 units in the south east region! Az has 5 officers in every unit! So how is it nm g&f cannot? Because of all the corruption in our state and officials! They spend the money in bs ways, cater to the wealthy and landowners! Not the sportsman! And 30 I'll gladly pay twice those prices to hunt in my home state!


I just call em as I see em!
 
Az has a different mechanism of funding. I thought I heard they had a allocation of sales tax to fund their dept. NM does not. Mostly funded by license sales which goes into the general fund and then allocated back out.
 
If you are talking about the Pittman-Robertson Act that is a federal law. and don't worry about AZ and there funding...They force NR to buy license every year just to enter the draw... SOOO If I draw a goat tag it is $485 and I need about 20 points to draw... soooo 20 x 150ish $3000
It will take me about $3485 just to get a solid chance of getting a NR Tag...
If you want a chance of getting a NM antelope tag... $6... NO WONDER NR's flock to NM... WE ARE GETTING JACKED in the deal...

This just get worse and worse every time I crunch the numbers...
 
Your right in az in order to GAIN a bp yes you must buy a hunting license you don't have too and then it only cost you, hey 6 bucks! And you have the exact same system as nm with the same odds! Lmao! But az doesn't have 10000 elk landowner tags getting sold mostly to non residents at the cost of 750 each! Seems like nm gains more through hunting than az!


I just call em as I see em!
 
NM G&F is funded totally by hunting/fishing license sales. No sales tax, real estate tax, employment tax funds make it to the NM G&F. AZ, UT, CO does get funds from the general fund.

Jason get your numbers right.
 
Hell with the recent administration - am suprised the state can still operate. Education funding being cut, yet we can still fly around in the jet. LOL hurry up November.
 
Colorado does NOT get any general fund money. A few years back it was made an enterprise agency and must raise its own money.

But Colorado has sold out to the Landowners (15% of all draw tags), and Nonresidents (with OTC Elk tags) to the point where our DOW has a $120 million plus budget, which if I remember right is more than NM & UT combined.

Public land is way too crowded and private land is way too expensive due to the availability of easy tags.

Great State to hunt as a Nonresident, but sucks if you live here!
 

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