Any Contractors Here?

[grizzly]

I'm in the design phase for a new home in Logan, Utah. The architect is working on plans now and we hope to dig in the spring. If there are any subcontractors who want to bid, shoot me a PM.

PS. For heating we're doing geothermal, so experience in that area would be preferred on the HVAC side. Thx

 

[Horsecorn]

Good luck with the geothermal heating. Here in the basin you had to install backup heating cause it gets cold here like it does in Logan and it wouldn’t keep up. Had 4 units install in 4 houses and had to do it on all 4. In my opinion bag the extra cost on the system and just go with a gas furnace. If available. That being said, that was 10 years ago and maybe they have improved.

 

[elkassassin]

Geothermal Works Great Where The Earth/Underground Water Is Warm!

Just Like Horsecorn Said!

If They Haven't Come Up With Something Different/Better The Basin Ain't The Place For Them!

 

[mtmuley]

We do a lot of in floor radiant but also install forced air backup. mtmuley

 

[grizzly]

Good luck with the geothermal heating. Here in the basin you had to install backup heating cause it gets cold here like it does in Logan and it wouldn’t keep up. Had 4 units install in 4 houses and had to do it on all 4. In my opinion bag the extra cost on the system and just go with a gas furnace. If available. That being said, that was 10 years ago and maybe they have improved.

Our house will be ICF and I know two people here with geo and ICF and they love it. There's no gas to my lot, so I'd have to be on propane, which is fine, but I think ICF with geo and then solar to offset the increased electrical usage is a better way for me.

I spoke to the building inspector yesterday and there's a house about a mile from me with radiant geo and ICF and they had it at 71F when he did the four-way. The sheetrocker said it was too hot so he turned off the heat... it held above 65F for two weeks. This was just last month, so not super cold, but it shows how well that heat can be stored.

I'm still going to do a wood stove and a couple of pellet stoves just to supplement in case it gets super cold for a while. We normally bottom out in the teens, but there's always that cold snap of -15F once a year.

 

[grizzly]

Geothermal Works Great Where The Earth/Underground Water Is Warm!

Just Like Horsecorn Said!

If They Haven't Come Up With Something Different/Better The Basin Ain't The Place For Them!

You just gotta go deep enough. In Logan, at 10' deep, the average temperature is about 52-55F and there's not much variation by season.

The cool thing about it is the soil at 12' is actually warmer on January 1st than it is on July 4th because of the latent delay in solar heat gain.

There's more heat to pull in the winter and more cool to transfer to in the summer... exactly the way you'd want it.

I wouldn't do air source heat pump in a cold climate without gas backup, but geo works well as long as your home is insulated well enough.

You then use an ERV for mechanical ventilation so the house "breathes"

 

[mtmuley]

How long to recover the cost vs radiant or forced air? It was all the rage for awhile but we only built one house using it. mtmuley

 

[grizzly]

How long to recover the cost vs radiant or forced air? It was all the rage for awhile but we only built one house using it. mtmuley

It depends on final bids after the load calcs. For example, a 5-ton WaterFurnace Series 5 is guesstimated around $17k but a Series 7 is guesstimated around $22k... so a huge swing on installed price for a similar product.

The energy savings of a Series 7 (variable speed) over a Series 5 is about 30%, but until I finalize my house design and know exactly what the bids are, I won't know which system to go with or the ROI.

I can dig my own pit, so that's just the cost of fuel. The difference from a gas furnace is just the pipe and the unit since the tin is the same price regardless of what I do. I also don't have to buy a furnace plus A/C since one unit does both jobs.

(There's also a 30% tax credit for geothermal that effectively lowers the price substantially to be more competitive with gas. Especially since it means I don't have to put in a propane tank.)

 

[mtmuley]

It depends on final bids after the load calcs. For example, a 5-ton WaterFurnace Series 5 is guesstimated around $17k but a Series 7 is guesstimated around $22k... so a huge swing on installed price for a similar product.

The energy savings of a Series 7 (variable speed) over a Series 5 is about 30%, but until I finalize my house design and know exactly what the bids are, I won't know which system to go with or the ROI.

I can dig my own pit, so that's just the cost of fuel. The difference from a gas furnace is just the pipe and the unit since the tin is the same price regardless of what I do. I also don't have to buy a furnace plus A/C since one unit does both jobs.

(There's also a 30% tax credit for geothermal that effectively lowers the price substantially to be more competitive with gas. Especially since it means I don't have to put in a propane tank.)

Hope it works out. mtmuley

 

[SS!]

Interesting project, keep us updated if you have time.

I've been the sub on a few (15ish) geothermal projects. Worked with some of the "pioneers" of it up here. All i know is if a guy named Chuck is involved, run. He's made millions selling geothermal

 

[elkassassin]

We've Been Building Homes Tighter & Tighter!

More Insulation!

More Insulation!

Better R Value Windows Which The R Value Still Sucks On Windows But It Adds To The Equation!

Now They Are Getting Worried About The Oxygen You Breathe May Not Be Adequate!

A Couple Years Ago They Were Talking They Wanted Systems Added To The HVAC That Would Bring Heated Air/Oxygen In To The Home During Winter Months & Cooled Air Brought In During Summer Months!

That Was Gonna Be A Big Chunk Of Change!

Ya Boys,You Still Gotta Breathe!

My Question Is This:

Where Do We Draw The Line Of Maybe Over-Doing Things?

Kinda Like The Spray-On Stucco They Came Up With Many Years Ago!

Good Sshitt!

Seals Everything Off Tight!

Ya So Tight It Can't Breathe & Rots The OSB & Framing Out On The Other Side!

The House Has Gotta Breathe & So Do You!

 

[SS!]

We've Been Building Homes Tighter & Tighter!

More Insulation!

More Insulation!

Better R Value Windows Which The R Value Still Sucks On Windows But It Adds To The Equation!

Now They Are Getting Worried About The Oxygen You Breathe May Not Be Adequate!

A Couple Years Ago They Were Talking They Wanted Systems Added To The HVAC That Would Bring Heated Air/Oxygen In To The Home During Winter Months & Cooled Air Brought In During Summer Months!

That Was Gonna Be A Big Chunk Of Change!

Ya Boys,You Still Gotta Breathe!

My Question Is This:

Where Do We Draw The Line Of Maybe Over-Doing Things?

Kinda Like The Spray-On Stucco They Came Up With Many Years Ago!

Good Sshitt!

Seals Everything Off Tight!

Ya So Tight It Can't Breathe & Rots The OSB & Framing Out On The Other Side!

The House Has Gotta Breathe & So Do You!

 

[2lumpy]

Coal is a very comfortable heat……… oh yeah, never mind.

 

[grizzly]

We've Been Building Homes Tighter & Tighter!

More Insulation!

More Insulation!

Better R Value Windows Which The R Value Still Sucks On Windows But It Adds To The Equation!

Now They Are Getting Worried About The Oxygen You Breathe May Not Be Adequate!

A Couple Years Ago They Were Talking They Wanted Systems Added To The HVAC That Would Bring Heated Air/Oxygen In To The Home During Winter Months & Cooled Air Brought In During Summer Months!

That Was Gonna Be A Big Chunk Of Change!

Ya Boys,You Still Gotta Breathe!

My Question Is This:

Where Do We Draw The Line Of Maybe Over-Doing Things?

Kinda Like The Spray-On Stucco They Came Up With Many Years Ago!

Good Sshitt!

Seals Everything Off Tight!

Ya So Tight It Can't Breathe & Rots The OSB & Framing Out On The Other Side!

The House Has Gotta Breathe & So Do You!

That's where the ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator) comes in.

And on ICF, there's no framing in the wall to rot. There are specific vapor barrier considerations that are taken into account with ICF to prevent moisture issues.

 

[elkassassin]

Yes!

Are They Making You Install A Radon Ventilation System?

That's where the ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator) comes in.

And on ICF, there's no framing in the wall to rot. There are specific vapor barrier considerations that are taken into account with ICF to prevent moisture issues.

 

[elkassassin]

Another Thing To Think About Is The Quality Of Our Modern Day Wood!

It Is JUNK!

It's Also Sad!

You Trying The ICF Yourself grizzly?

 

[grizzly]

Yes!

Are They Making You Install A Radon Ventilation System?

I'm going slab on grade, so I hopefully won't need radon ventilation, but I'll put a passive system under the slab and have an outlet near the vent pipe so I can install a fan if needed.

My current house was 19 on the main floor and 39 in the basement before we put in our fan and it's a lot easier to install before the slab is poured.

I'll also use the radon pvc for an interior French Drain so I get two uses out of it. I shouldn't have water or radon issues, but I've seen weirder things happen.

I'm going to do the ICF on my own. I've never done it before but I worked construction for years and have a friend that does ICF professionally so I think I'll be good to go.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

Smart Move On The Possible Future Of Dealing With Ground Water & Radon!

We Suck Radon Out Of The Ground!

Push It To The Atmosphere!

Then It Rains!

It Comes Back Down!

Just Sayin........!

Maybe The Future Radon Systems Will Have Catalytic Converters & Obama Juice On Them?

I'm going slab on grade, so I hopefully won't need radon ventilation, but I'll put a passive system under the slab and have an outlet near the vent pipe so I can install a fan if needed.

My current house was 19 on the main floor and 39 in the basement before we put in our fan and it's a lot easier to install before the slab is poured.

I'll also use the radon pvc for an interior French Drain so I get two uses out of it. I shouldn't have water or radon issues, but I've seen weirder things happen.

I'm going to do the ICF on my own. I've never done it before but I worked construction for years and have a friend that does ICF professionally so I think I'll be good to go.

 

[hossblur]

Congrats on getting the new house.

I love the idea of geo. The ICF is a cool concept. I detest moisture barriers as the ones I've ever seen are great at growing mold, but the ICF is cool.

Slab on is definitely the way to go.

But might I suggest, get the shop built first. Lot harder to get a shop after.

Post some pics sling the way, it's a cool new way(geo new?) to look at home construction

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't Know Whatever Happened On This Deal Several Years Ago?

An Inspector In Park City Was Demanding A Layer Or Two Of Plastic On The Bottom Side Os Trusses/I-Beams On Vaulted Ceilings And The Insulators Blew The Cellulose Insulation In!

2 & 3 Story Houses!

75-80 Degrees On The Bottom Side/Inside The House!

12" Above That/Rooftop, 10 above To Possibly -10 to -20 Degrees!

What Happens?

Damn Good Vapor Barrier Until It Sweats/Condensates & There's Nowhere for it To Go Other Than Soaking In To The Structure!

Never did Hear what Happened On That Other Than People Were talking About Lawsuits!

 

[grizzly]

But might I suggest, get the shop built first. Lot harder to get a shop after.

Agreed, but I built a shop a few years ago on some other property I have so I don't need another one right now. I'm going to mark it as a "Future Shop" on the plans and stub utilities so it's easy if I ever sell my other shop and want to build one next to my house

 

[grizzly]

I Don't Know Whatever Happened On This Deal Several Years Ago?

An Inspector In Park City Was Demanding A Layer Or Two Of Plastic On The Bottom Side Os Trusses/I-Beams On Vaulted Ceilings And The Insulators Blew The Cellulose Insulation In!

2 & 3 Story Houses!

75-80 Degrees On The Bottom Side/Inside The House!

12" Above That/Rooftop, 10 above To Possibly -10 to -20 Degrees!

What Happens?

Damn Good Vapor Barrier Until It Sweats/Condensates & There's Nowhere for it To Go Other Than Soaking In To The Structure!

Never did Hear what Happened On That Other Than People Were talking About Lawsuits!

They call that the "Ping Pong Effect." It's caused a ton of problems over the years for different reasons, but generally the moisture gets absorbed by the sheathing and then expelled back into the attic as the temps rise and fall throughout the day. It quickly ruins the roof.

There was one instance in Alaska where they had a rash of homes with roof sheathing failing and couldn't figure out why. Some building scientists went up and found that HVAC guys were getting better and better at sealing off the ducts in the attic space and that exposed the problem.

Previously when they had leaky ducts, there was enough air exchange to move the moisture out of the attic space.

Sometimes builders/inspectors try and fix a problem and make another one worse.

I'm doing a conditioned attic with closed-cell foam on the sheathing and continuous rigid insulation on top of the roof decking. That prevents that issue.

__________

ICF is considered a vapor barrier, but I'll still put a liquid-applied AWB on the exterior and then a rain screen behind the cladding. The AWB is vapor permeable. I'll then attach the sheetrock directly to the interior wall EPS without poly or anything because an interior vapor barrier (which would otherwise be required in our zone) would create a "vapor sandwich"

 

[hossblur]

Agreed, but I built a shop a few years ago on some other property I have so I don't need another one right now. I'm going to mark it as a "Future Shop" on the plans and stub utilities so it's easy if I ever sell my other shop and want to build one next to my house

Contractor we used to work for bought 3/4 acre(didn't want his daughter to bring the horses home) and built a 40x60 shop with lovely "tack room"(man cave).

It was totally done before he started digging hole for house.

Said he got burned by the Mrs on his first house build

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

They've Started Making Some HVAC Guys Do Tests On Their Duct Work Even On Houses Now!

Houses Need To Breathe A Little!

A Few Decades Back When They First Started Using Cellulose Insulation Around Here They Used Visqueen Stapled To The Bottom Of Floor Joists & Then They Blowed The Joists Full & Then Taped Off The Holes Where They Blowed It In!

Down The Road A Few Years I Can't Tell How Many Times I Got Called,People Claiming They Had A Leak!

Yup!

Damn Sure A Leak!

Condensate That Had Done Major Damage!

And Had Nowhere To Go Until It Saturated The Insulation & Finally Got Heavy Enough To Break Through The Visqueen!

Kinda Like Me Last Weekend Out Towards Where Hossy Lives,I Couldn't Breathe!

They call that the "Ping Pong Effect." It's caused a ton of problems over the years for different reasons, but generally the moisture gets absorbed by the sheathing and then expelled back into the attic as the temps rise and fall throughout the day. It quickly ruins the roof.

There was one instance in Alaska where they had a rash of homes with roof sheathing failing and couldn't figure out why. Some building scientists went up and found that HVAC guys were getting better and better at sealing off the ducts in the attic space and that exposed the problem.

Previously when they had leaky ducts, there was enough air exchange to move the moisture out of the attic space.

Sometimes builders/inspectors try and fix a problem and make another one worse.

I'm doing a conditioned attic with closed-cell foam on the sheathing and continuous rigid insulation on top of the roof decking. That prevents that issue.

__________

ICF is considered a vapor barrier, but I'll still put a liquid-applied AWB on the exterior and then a rain screen behind the cladding. The AWB is vapor permeable. I'll then attach the sheetrock directly to the interior wall EPS without poly or anything because an interior vapor barrier (which would otherwise be required in our zone) would create a "vapor sandwich"

 

[Deerlove]

Grizz I work for one of the best Rock contractors stone mason in Northern Utah if you need any Rock on the house wapity Willy AKA Big Canyon construction can vouch for our work

 

[grizzly]

Grizz I work for one of the best Rock contractors stone mason in Northern Utah if you need any Rock on the house wapity Willy AKA Big Canyon construction can vouch for our work

Thanks, @Deerlove. We meet again with the architect today and I hope to see elevations for the first time. We do have a wood fireplace, but I'm not sure what they (my wife and the architect) are envisioning for masonry, or if they're thinking another material.

If there is masonry, I'll definitely reach out.

 

[eelgrass]

Here's an idea or 2 for you grizzly.

 

[joesikora]

We've Been Building Homes Tighter & Tighter!

More Insulation!

More Insulation!

Better R Value Windows Which The R Value Still Sucks On Windows But It Adds To The Equation!

Now They Are Getting Worried About The Oxygen You Breathe May Not Be Adequate!

A Couple Years Ago They Were Talking They Wanted Systems Added To The HVAC That Would Bring Heated Air/Oxygen In To The Home During Winter Months & Cooled Air Brought In During Summer Months!

That Was Gonna Be A Big Chunk Of Change!

Ya Boys,You Still Gotta Breathe!

My Question Is This:

Where Do We Draw The Line Of Maybe Over-Doing Things?

Kinda Like The Spray-On Stucco They Came Up With Many Years Ago!

Good Sshitt!

Seals Everything Off Tight!

Ya So Tight It Can't Breathe & Rots The OSB & Framing Out On The Other Side!

The House Has Gotta Breathe & So Do You!

We just had some issues in my area with this black house spray stuff. I don’t build anymore but the guys told me it’s too tight and causes the things mentioned by Elk