Applicant numbers up?

andrew12gauge

Active Member
Messages
784
Seems like the applicant #'s were up for OIL hunts this year. Especially noticeable on moose where it seems in the past some of the unit 1 tags were nearly 100% draw and there would usually be leftover tags. The sheep unit I applied for had double the number of resident applications. Just wondering if anyone else noticed this. Think maybe people are starting to understand points may be coming and would be the end of our "easy" to draw OIL tags?
 
Or does it show the poor quality of the deer and elk hunting in Idaho, even among the Top units?

People will take their chances for a sheep because the better odds of deer, elk, and antelope aren't worth it.

Grizzly
 
OR with the economy coming back, people feel they can afford to apply for the OIL's. I recall seeing a sharp decline in applicants when the recession hit in 08.

Looked like a sharp increase of non-resident applicants from the few that I looked at but that was just on moose hunts.
 
People shift their unit choice from year-to-year, probably attempting to outguess the competition. The overall number of sheep applications didn't change very much. 2409 applicants last year and 2482 this year.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-28-14 AT 07:36AM (MST)[p]Just wait until next year when everyone starts putting their ten year olds into the draws.
 
>Or does it show the poor
>quality of the deer and
>elk hunting in Idaho, even
>among the Top units?
>
>People will take their chances for
>a sheep because the better
>odds of deer, elk, and
>antelope aren't worth it.
>
>Grizzly


Bullshit.
 
brymoore, very impressive counterargument. It is always nice to have a discussion with intelligent and tactful responses.

Just look at deer and elk license sales to NR over the last few years, they're plummeting. IDFG has released many PR letters about the falling NR tag sales and surveys on how to boost revenue (which is why they are considering a point system... watch the videos if you don't believe me).

This is the first year that I have applied in the OIL draw, I have always applied before this year in the deer/elk draw.

Are you seriously telling me that I am the ONLY one who looks at the poor quality from the Non-Trophy species and feels I'll take the chance at 1% sheep odds over better odds at a Unit 54 deer tag AND a Unit 54 elk tag? I can have my name in the hat for multiple species and save a fortune if successful plus not have to front over $2,000 merely for the chance, but it isn't worth it for the quality offered.

***Here are some facts for you... Idaho is #8 in B&C deer entries over the last 10 years with 39, Colorado leads with 242 over the same time period, Wyoming is #3 with 58 and Utah is #4 with 57. For elk, Idaho doesn't have a single county in the Top 20, Utah has 7 counties in the Top 20.***

Idaho does not currently offer competitive trophy potential considering the costs and odds of drawing a tag.

I'm sure there is an economic relation as well since people have more disposable income now than a few years ago, but if the quality of deer/elk was better in Idaho... you would see it in the applications.

Grizzly
 
They could have put their 10 yr olds in this year. Oh and grizzly I forgot there are no deer and elk left in Idaho an the few that are here there are no trophies left. Good on you for pointing that out.
 
>They could have put their 10
>yr olds in this year.
>Oh and grizzly I forgot
>there are no deer and
>elk left in Idaho an
>the few that are here
>there are no trophies left.
>Good on you for pointing
>that out.

Sorry, I must not be clear enough with my point. I love hunting in Idaho, it is where I spend most of my time. Last year I shot a 7' bear and a 184 4/8 archery deer in an OTC unit. I'll be hunting deer in Idaho again this year. It is my single favorite state to hunt.

My point is that the Top Tier unit don't produce the quality on a regular basis that competitive state's Top units produce. If you draw the best tag in the state and plan on holding out for a 200+ deer or a 380+ elk... there is a really good chance you will go home empty handed.

Colorado has several deer units that you can have that goal with a realistic chance of reaching it, Utah and Arizona each have a couple units like that. For elk, you can reasonably shoot for 380+ in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico and even some Nevada units depending on moisture. I'm not saying these are guaranteed kills of these animals on those units... but that quality of animal is killed every year. The same can't be said of the Top Idaho units. One more thing, until 1996 Idaho was a solid #2 in B&C deer entries, since then it has fallen all the way to #8. The decline is steady and apparent. The cause of the decline is the real question.

Again, I love hunting in Idaho and am not trashing the state in any way. I'm just saying that the falling deer/elk quality affects people's application strategy.

Grizzly
 
Grizzly,
You can come here to Idaho and shoot trophy animals like you did last year in OTC units and do it every year, but the trophy quality here sucks! There isn't any unit anywhere that you can be guaranteed a 200" deer or a 380" bull. If your standards are set that high you can go home empty handed anywhere you draw a Top unit tag. Does everyone who draws a coveted Henrys tag shoot 200" inch deer or are a lot of 180 type bucks shot? A 20 year wait to draw these Top unit tags is not worth it. Hunting for that once in a lifetime buck or bull in your home state once in your life is ridiculous. We don't need that type of thinking here. I like being able to hunt every year and have a chance to shoot trophy animals in every OTC unit. The deer/elk quality is falling and you should spread the word that its not even worth applying in Idaho anymore. The OIL tags are what you should be trying for and it looks like you have that figured out. Let's not make hunting here in Idaho what other states have become. I hope you can get another trophy buck this year here in Idaho your odds are pretty good to get a tag and be successful.
 
>brymoore, very impressive counterargument. It is
>always nice to have a
>discussion with intelligent and tactful
>responses.
>
>Just look at deer and elk
>license sales to NR over
>the last few years, they're
>plummeting. IDFG has released many
>PR letters about the falling
>NR tag sales and surveys
>on how to boost revenue
>(which is why they are
>considering a point system... watch
>the videos if you don't
>believe me).
>
>This is the first year that
>I have applied in the
>OIL draw, I have always
>applied before this year in
>the deer/elk draw.
>
>Are you seriously telling me that
>I am the ONLY one
>who looks at the poor
>quality from the Non-Trophy species
>and feels I'll take the
>chance at 1% sheep odds
>over better odds at a
>Unit 54 deer tag AND
>a Unit 54 elk tag?
> I can have my
>name in the hat for
>multiple species and save a
>fortune if successful plus not
>have to front over $2,000
>merely for the chance, but
>it isn't worth it for
>the quality offered.
>
>***Here are some facts for you...
>Idaho is #8 in B&C
>deer entries over the last
>10 years with 39, Colorado
>leads with 242 over the
>same time period, Wyoming is
>#3 with 58 and Utah
>is #4 with 57.
>For elk, Idaho doesn't have
>a single county in the
>Top 20, Utah has 7
>counties in the Top 20.***
>
>
>Idaho does not currently offer competitive
>trophy potential considering the costs
>and odds of drawing a
>tag.
>
>I'm sure there is an economic
>relation as well since people
>have more disposable income now
>than a few years ago,
>but if the quality of
>deer/elk was better in Idaho...
>you would see it in
>the applications.
>
>Grizzly

NR tags sales fell for three reasons: 1) Price increase by the legislature, 2) Downturn in the Economy 3) Wolves (public perception).

Typical Utah response complaining about Idaho's quality while you wait 20 years to draw a one Utah tag. Deer or Elk don't need to be B&C quality to have a good hunt. Idaho is an opportunity state for hunters. I'm hunting deer and elk every year in Idaho, not tagging along on someone else's hunt for the experience.
 
HeyZeus and brymoore,

I never said Idaho "sucks" and I never said a 200" deer was "guaranteed" on any unit, in fact if you read what I said you will see I said the exact opposite.

I have laid out facts and statistics, if you guys want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the obvious and indisputable decline of trophy quality deer and elk in Idaho over the last two decades... that is your prerogative.

I never attacked Idaho, if fact I said it is my favorite state to hunt. I never said I want Utah's de-facto OIL system for deer and elk to be implemented in Idaho. Do some reading on my MM posts over the years and you will see I have fought against the SFW mindset in Utah more than most and would hate to see it expanded. I wish all states would be like Idaho and New Mexico and get rid of all point systems.

I think maybe the best argument against my theory is that the drop in deer/elk apps and increase in OIL apps is because the OTC tags offer such comparatively high-quality hunts that it is not worth applying for a Controlled deer/elk tag when you can have such a good experience anyway. With that thought, you might as well apply for OIL... I know that is why I did it.

I have found an area in an OTC unit in Central Idaho that with a little work and pack time, I can hunt 180+ bucks every year. Why would I apply for a Controlled hunt when the quality of the top units isn't that much better, but has terrible odds? It's not like being successful would give me a reasonable chance at 200+ deer, as is the case in some other states.

I'll say it again, I love hunting in Idaho and don't want to change the opportunity/point system mindset... but to say that quality hasn't decreased is just not a viable stance.

I'm sorry if I personally offended either one of you. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

Grizzly
 
there is no where in the west that 200 deer and 380 elk are a guarantee, unless your behind a fence. More people shoot deer under 170 then over 200 on any tag out there.
 
My .02cents.

First, a high number of people who put in for Trophy species, particularly Goat and Sheep are people who do so because that is their passion and Deer and Elk are secondary. So I don't think your hypothesis holds water with these people.

Second, while it is a given that an animal that makes book is a trophy, an animal can be a trophy without being a B&C animal. I think the past two years the amount of quality 180-200" deer killed in Idaho(see unit 44 photo's alone last year)has been on the rise, while you hear more and more people from these top ranked states, particularly Colo, Wyo, and Utah, complain about the shrinking herds. My point is that while you're right about book entries over the last 8 years, I think, but can't prove, that the field is leveling out the past 2-3 years.

So, my opinion is that your hypothesis about what the OIL draw stats infer, is incorrect. I think any increase is economically influenced and shows that Idaho has a pretty decent deal overall for Trophy Species. I will say that I looked at the last 5 years for the Mt Goat tag I applied for and it was surprisingly consistent. Amazing how a good tag can only pull in 14 applicants consistently year after year.

I haven't hunted enough other states to say how much better they might be, but I think the complaining from NR's and even some Residents is primarily that they feel they should get to hunt the equivalent of a low odd trophy unit every year, and if they can't they think it's somebody else's fault. These is simply no where, I believe, that you can expect annually to kill 180"+ deer, or 320"+ bulls, anymore than you can expect to hunt Shiras Moose, Bighorn Sheep, or Mtn Goats annually. At least in Idaho you can not only try and kill that Deer or Elk every year, but you have an equal shot to draw a tag. I think that's a pretty fair trade. It's what keeps me from spending thousands of dollars chasing draws in 6-7 other states each year too.
 
Grizzly,
I know you never said Idaho "sucks" my apologizes if I came across rude. I guess I didn't understand what you said about the OTC units being equal with draw units. You are right about that. You have a good chance to shoot a big buck or bull any where in Idaho no matter what unit your hunting. I know there is deer taken every year here that would make B&C but some people don't enter or even care for that BS. Good luck on your hunts this year.
 
Great discussion and most have made great points...once expanded on. I would rather hunt 280 to 320 bulls every year (and be happy to fill the freezer with less) than true monster bulls every 10 or 20 years. Same with deer but pick your numbers....like bpk said they don't define the quality of my hunt, so many other factors do. As a resident I've tracked OIL tags for sheep for many years and they change around but remain overall pretty consistent. There were some great hunts in the backcountry that were 1 in 4, with many 1 in 15 or less. Granted these are not easy hunts logistically. I've not followed the NR app stats as close so maybe there are many more applying, but maybe that IS because they can still apply that mandatory license purchase to a "decent" OTC deer/elk/bear hunt. I guess if idfg were to some day invoke a point system for NRs that may be fine, and keep to the current quotas, but as long as I walk these woods I will oppose it for resident tags. Elitist? Maybe, but I choose to live here for a reason.
 
I don't think that is elitist at all. As the draw system stands right now we have the fairest system for all. Everybody has the same chance every year. I am not one of those lucky people tha draws every tag I put in for either. I just know that one day luck will shine on me and I will draw. Unlike points systems where in some states I could start playing now at age 30 and be so far behind I may never draw. I would not be against a point system for non res but it would require the state to have to do 2 separate draws and set a 10% guaranteed quota. Fine by me but doubt idfg would wanna do that.
 
Idaho is a great place and I have lived my dreams several times.What's sad about Idaho is how much better we could make it with a few small changes that still allow general seasons and being able to hunt deer and elk every year as we'll. Idaho is great for opportunity but we have went to far. People don't need to be shooting two big bucks and two big bulls every year. We have people half hardly hunting through five or more seasons with the same tags hindering the dedicated hunter who plans his hunts. Some of you may not notice but there are a few sheep units with one tag that go to non residents basically every year. There's nothing wrong with non res getting tags because I've been in there shoes but it's wrong to never see residents draw the two best sheep units in Idaho. Something needs to be changed with that to even out where the non residents draw. They may only get 6 tags but there coming from the same units.
 
IMO, no hunt is worth the odds when you think about it. Waiting 10-25 years in Utah for a tag that MIGHT get you 15 extra inches of horn or an extra drop tine does not make me the slightest bit jealous. Not antelope island, not book cliffs nor Idaho's unit 45 are worth their odds. I don't think that a 190+ buck or 360+ bull is a layup on any tag in any state. But I do like my chance here of possibly drawing a top 5 hunt 2 or 3 times in that period. Even if I have to "settle" for a 181" buck.

We are an opportunity state. In some of our very best draw units the tag is good for 2-4 weeks. Not 6 days like in Utah. We also have muzzleloader and archery opportunities in those same units at different times. The primitive weapon draw odds are slightly better. If IDFG regulated unit 45 like how Utah and Arizona seem to manage their trophy units, maybe we could produce that extra 10" of horn or drop tine to get us into the record books. By regulate, I mean only having the one rifle tag, letting it be open for less than a week to reduce take, no other tags, no horn hunting, and having officers make sure people aren't bumping the deer in the winter range. But what's the point? It would be bullshit to get rid of the primitive hunts just so Grizzly can break the 200" mark.

If Idaho did away with the draws completely I would be bummed for sure, but I would still sleep at night knowing I'm still going to have some great hunts.

I think that the perceived shift towards an increase in OIL applicants is because things are the opposite. The hunting has been getting better here the last couple years. The realization of killing 160" bucks OTC and one of these years finding that 180" on a general tag like you did is what's making at least residents apply OIL. If they scout hard and put in the time of course.

Clearly changing a units genetics is no easy task because there are non-controllable factors that influence drop tines, deep forks and 30"+ racks. But yes, you can find a monster in any of our units so why not put in for extremely low supply/high demand hunts like sheep, goats and moose. And if you think that our odds are poor for trophies, then you obviously have not looked into the odds in Wyoming or Montana for moose or sheep. I don't know about Utah odds, but my money is on your chances there being the worst of the worst.

My strategy right now is to try and draw one good elk tag, and if not, focus hard on elk this summer and this fall. As soon as I get a nice bull it will be all OIL applications for me from here on out.

Like Brymoore said, a $2,300 price tag for our trophy tags/license isn't pocket change for most and as per usual, Idaho is the first state most people seem to drop out of in the draw game. As things get better I expect slightly more NR applicants to apply.
 
The "I have to hunt every year" BS has to stop. If you're not getting out and appreciating this great state without having to have a tag in your pocket, you are missing out. I have hunted this state all my life and all I have seen is the deer population decline with little to no changes in the regulations. Sure there has been a lot of talk, but no changes to restrain the hunting pressure. Seems like all the focus is on the elk, maybe because it brings in more revenue, I don't know. I would like to see something done though, even if we did fall into the stupid Utah mentality of once in a life time hunts. I wouldn't want it to go that far, but it is better than what we have now. I am confident that with just a little restraint, Idaho would be so much better.

Sorry andrew12gauge for high jacking your post. For your original question, YES! I am all for a point system. It takes the guessing game out of IF I will draw this year, but WHEN I will draw it. For the last 20 years I have only drawn 1 tag that hasn't had the "unlimited" quota. I at least have a pretty good idea that in 4 years I will be able to draw the Colorado tag I want and my wife will draw an elk tag in Utah. Wyoming, I just buy a point every year because I know that it will pay off when I am ready. It takes more of the surprise and the disappointment out of it and turns it into expectation.









________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
Never did I think I would ever get a cougar without the use of dogs. If cougars do turn to a draw, I will buy a better camera. If I ever see one on the side of the road again, you will be the first one I call. Too bad I can't focus all my luck on deer, like you and your family. Lol!






________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
I'm hunting every year.

No shortage of critters in this state.











the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
GSJ I'm with you on this one. MMO you are a fool and should move to Utah if you like their system so much. If all you care about I the trophy then go hunt behind high fences. I personally like to eat wild game more than bee and find that I can do that cheaper than beef as well. Between my deer and elk this past year I put 300 lbs of meat in my freezer last year on 1 tank of gas and 2 bullets along with the cost of license and tags. That is why I will hunt every year I am able. I may not kill a 180 buck or 300 bull every season but I will make a lifetime of memories with family and friends and get some good eats out of the deal
 
Idaho has gone to far with opportunity.. that is a fact! however i never want to see controlled hunts. We have the opportunity to have both outstanding general season trophy hunting and non trophy hunting but we are always trying to jeopardize it. It seem like we have so many seasons that we do not allow for escapement (which is whats needed for trophy animals). I can start hunting in august and go all the way till December with the same tag. I can buy two elk and two deer tags. If someones not happy with shooting just one big buck and one big bull per year in the same state than your probably not an ethical hunter. A lot of people kill two nice deer and two nice elk every year then wonder why they cant find a 200" buck and a 350 bull... We have cow hunts during trophy bull hunts, we have rifle hunts during archery seasons. There is no need for this! we could spread people out have much better experience and even have awesome trophy opportunity. Its called hunting not killing. Heck if you cant kill a deer in the five months that you got to hunt, you may as well pick up a road kill to fill the freezer... We have so many seasons overlapping that it makes it easy for poachers as well. We have people hunting late archery seasons that really could care less about bow hunting but there just out there trying to fill their tags in the last season of the year. What im trying to say is if your an archery hunter pick your early season or late season hunt, if your a rifle hunter pick your hunt etc.. We could increase the quality and the experience and still have general seasons that are world renown! I have no problem with Idaho i love it, i harvest big bucks and bulls ever year i just feel sorry for how great it really could be..
 
Hay andrew12gauge, maybe you could cut back on your food intake to save a few deer and elk.






________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
Andrew, yes I did notice too. I'm a NR and put in for Goat. I notice the # of NR apps went up from approx 143 last year to 180 something this year ( i believe thats the #'s I counted)

I was wonder why myself. thats a good size jump if its the right numbers,

nocwalker
 
Mickey, you could kill a 200 inch buck on general and still complain that Idaho doesn't have good hunting. Its ok though, if you are a glass half empty kind of guy.
 
>Hay andrew12gauge, maybe you could cut
>back on your food intake
>to save a few deer
>and elk.

So besides being a fool you're also a grade a dbag. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't eat. I suppose you probably cut the head off of the animals you kill and leave it behind. I won't apologize for liking to eat wild game.
 
Oh and one more thing Mickey while we are at it this next fall get off your wheeler or out of your truck and hike a mile or 2 you might just find that trophy buck or bull you're looking for.
 

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