Are Mule Deer Going Extinct?

slamdunk

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Keep Hammering them Along With 50+ Other Reasons Why And It Won't Be Long!

Maybe The F'N Tree-Huggers Of This State Can Get Some Wolves Brought In!


The real question is how long until some enterprising anti hunting group petitions to get them listed under the endangered species act.
 
I think with the introduction of wolves in some intermountain states as well as packs coming into areas where they never really were before, we are going to see losses. Case in point, last winter was a MF'r in my neck of the woods. We lost a lot of deer just to the snow. Now put wolves in the mix and even the healthiest of deer in any given winter are going to be affected.
 
A Question For The Pro's On Here!

Have Mule Deer Numbers Been Inclining In This State For The Last 50+ Years?
 
I am 63 years young!
About 40 years ago my dad and myself would go down to a little creek basin by were I now live, right before the sun would go down and watch all the deer eating and playing in the fields.I remember him saying on a lot of these nights.THE DEER ARE DISAPPEARING.
Hell I thought he was crazy, we would see at any given night at least 100 to 300 deer every night.It is sad to say but when we go to the exact same place now if we see 1 or 2 deer we are lucky!
I have a little 40 acer piece, when we first moved to our home, we would have (in the fall and winter) deer, elk, moose,every night and morning, Hell if we see one deer in our alfalfa field it is abnormal now days.Im not exaggerating this statement at all.
I think about the words my dad spoke to me 40 years ago about the deer herds,He truly seen this happening that long ago!!
 
Are mule deer going extinct? in a word , yes.

Deer numbers are in decline most everywhere and there's really no reason to assume they're going to turn around.

The late Dr Giest who was probably the foremost authority on mule deer and bighorn sheep in the world . he said the mule deer is going extinct and if you read his book it's hard to argue with him.

Hopefully this is all wrong.
 
I doubt they’ll be extinct in anyones current alive lifetime but……… I believe there will be very very few on public land in a few years. If mule deer do survive, it will be because private land owners will protect them or the entire civilization collapses and people turn their entire attention away from sport hunting.

Hope my vision is way wrong…..
 
So it’s sound MD management to continue issuing doe tags, increasing MD quotas with rifle rut hunting dates to supposedly curtail the % and spread of CWD in Colo?

I’ve heard no rumors of any change in the next Colo 5 year plan?
 
The Phoniest F'N Management They've Ever Came Up With!

They MIGHT Have CWD!

Let's KILL Them All!

So it’s sound MD management to continue issuing doe tags, increasing MD quotas with rifle rut hunting dates to supposedly curtail the % and spread of CWD in Colo?

I’ve heard no rumors of any change in the next Colo 5 year plan?
 
I manage properties with rare and imperiled native plant species and plant communities. There are obvious reasons that these species gain that type of status. Some species may not be very competitive, others habitat has disappeared due to disturbance or human encroachment, weather and climate, competition with non-native species…the list goes on.

It’s up to land and wildlife managers to make sound decisions that allow rare and imperiled species the very best chance to succeed. In Colo’s case it’s sad to go from a state known as a B&C mule deer mecca to almost historic low populations in such a short interval of time!

It’s evident that the CPW’s current strategies have failed miserably and can be blamed for a large part of the current mule deer status! Is it wise to continue this downward spiral and trend? I certainly hope they wake up!
 
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I saw a mule deer by the side of the highway here just outside of boise. I did not see a blue footed boobie or Tasmanian tiger for example. Everyone take a breath
 
My comments were not directed at you lumpy. I was just tagging on your responses.

It is quite a panicky responses to an obvious click bait article. Ole Steve must be running out of content over there at meat eater. Are herds down yes, is hunting quality suffering because if it, yes. Will mule deer go the way of ground dwelling birds in South Pacific islands on the trade routes of sailers? Um, no, probably not.

Thus topics just another victim of the 15 second attention span brought to you by social media

Like I said. Extinct is a pretty strong word
 
I am old enough to remember the Oak Creek's in the 1980s. You could not give away the limited entry tags, yes some guys (mostly Locals) had some good success but you better be ready to hunt hard, that mountain will eat a pair of boots off of your feet before the hunt is over.
I hunted elk back in the early 2000s and I did not see 50 deer (most was bucks) during scouting and through the hunt. I diffently saw more elk than deer.
What changed? Why has the deer herd improved so much?
The mountain had some large fires that created great feed, improved water sources and drastically reduced competition for food and water. They increased predator control ultimately wacked the hell out of the coyotes and lions.
It can be done it is going to take money and in my opinion serious hit on elk and predators.
Read the stories from the early 1900s in Utah, there was very few deer and by the 1950s record amount of deer. No we will never get to the point of the 1950s, but I do believe we can improve the herds substantially.
Deer need protection and groceries and they will do just fine.
 
Elk are the future of western hunting. I don't think that means that mule deer will go extinct. They are just super fragile compared to other game species. If the mule deer disappear, I vote that we bring in whitetail to fill the gap in our freezers.
 
I am old enough to remember the Oak Creek's in the 1980s. You could not give away the limited entry tags, yes some guys (mostly Locals) had some good success but you better be ready to hunt hard, that mountain will eat a pair of boots off of your feet before the hunt is over.
I hunted elk back in the early 2000s and I did not see 50 deer (most was bucks) during scouting and through the hunt. I diffently saw more elk than deer.
What changed? Why has the deer herd improved so much?
The mountain had some large fires that created great feed, improved water sources and drastically reduced competition for food and water. They increased predator control ultimately wacked the hell out of the coyotes and lions.
It can be done it is going to take money and in my opinion serious hit on elk and predators.
Read the stories from the early 1900s in Utah, there was very few deer and by the 1950s record amount of deer. No we will never get to the point of the 1950s, but I do believe we can improve the herds substantially.
Deer need protection and groceries and they will do just fine.
I would be fine if we hunted the heck out of elk, we hunt them pretty hard but I would say let's hunt them even harder. Seems like we're starting to a little more. Also in areas that have very few elk I would not allow the herd to expand any more into those areas.
 
Mule deer and antelope evolved with and have a direct relationship with fire. There are multiple factors accelerating their regression. Only when the relationship with fire is restored will you see this species start to level out.

Good luck.
 
I Call BS!
Come on Bess the DWR numbers are right, if you guys can remember I think it was 2019 that Covy Jones published the article that stated how great it was.

IMG_5376.jpeg
 
It May Have Been Better Than a Few Previous Years And Better Than Post Years!

Sure As HELL Not The Best It's Ever Been!

I Mighta Been Born Late,That I'll Admit!

But I Wasn't Born This F'N Late!
 
Mule deer and antelope evolved with and have a direct relationship with fire. There are multiple factors accelerating their regression. Only when the relationship with fire is restored will you see this species start to level out.

Good luck.
The west has been burning up the last couple decades, if you lived here you'd know that. and the deer numbers continue to fall.

I
 
You aren't even in the ballpark.
And you don't know what a ballpark is.

The West/Interior West has burned millions of acres recently. I know, I inventory them and see it first hand.

From my first hand experience we have millions of acres of early succession habitat due to fire, too bad species composition is dogchit for a variety of reasons that you wouldn't understand.

Lack of fire isn't the problem.
 
And you don't know what a ballpark is.

The West/Interior West has burned millions of acres recently. I know, I inventory them and see it first hand.

From my first hand experience we have millions of acres of early succession habitat due to fire, too bad species composition is dogchit for a variety of reasons that you wouldn't understand.

Lack of fire isn't the problem.
You ain't even in the ballpark.
 
You ain't even in the ballpark.
Oh sure, sure.

You need to stick to things you know about, hide paste, thread, and sniffing glue.

When you have 37 years experience in fire ecology, forestry, plant succession, habitat typing, forage utilization, yada yada...get back to me. Until then, I'm disinclined to even entertain your lack of first hand knowledge on everything habitat and mule deer.

To keep with your ballpark theme, you can bullchit the fans in the cheap seats, but not the players.

Don't you have corn flingers to fill?
 
Buzz is 100% correct with his assessment of wildfires across the west. Fire frequency has dramatically increased in recent years. For the most part wildfires are also burning at higher intensity and larger areas.

If you use antelope bitterbrush as an example it can’t tolerate high intensity fire. Bitterbrush and other critical mule deer browse habitat is getting hammered across the Western US. In the Great Basin shrub habitat has disappeared at an alarming rate due to high intensity and more frequent wildfires.
 
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Oh sure, sure.

You need to stick to things you know about, hide paste, thread, and sniffing glue.

When you have 37 years experience in fire ecology, forestry, plant succession, habitat typing, forage utilization, yada yada...get back to me. Until then, I'm disinclined to even entertain your lack of first hand knowledge on everything habitat and mule deer.

To keep with your ballpark theme, you can bullchit the fans in the cheap seats, but not the players.

Don't you have corn flingers to fill?
You think a fire event once a century in an area gets you back to a burn cycle that went on for 10000 years??????

I believe you know a lot about burning stuff. Puff puff pass.

Just like a lot of players, your ego is getting in your way.
 
You think a fire event once a century in an area gets you back to a burn cycle that went on for 10000 years??????

I believe you know a lot about burning stuff. Puff puff pass.

Just like a lot of players, your ego is getting in your way.
Oh guru of glue, please tell me more about fire frequency based on tree species, understory veg, slope, aspect, elevation, habitat type, fuel loads, etc.

I think all of those things determine fire intervals, intensity, duration, yada yada and where were historically in relation to what's going on presently.

But, hey, I only have been studying this stuff and working in the field for over 3.5 decades.

Laffin'.
 
You think a fire event once a century in an area gets you back to a burn cycle that went on for 10000 years??????
In what forest type?

Some absolutely, and 100 years isn't even close to burn frequency. Yellowstone for one classic example, Scapegoat/Bob for another. Fire frequency in Pinus Contorta (Google it), both of which are dominant forest types in those regions, fire frequencies/ stand replacing disturbance are well over 100 year events, in some cases 200-300+ years. That's been well documented by the various fire ecologists in the IMW with mountains of supported science.

Having a discussion with you is pointless, you already think you know everything. You have a hearing problem too, one mouth and two ears and you don't use them proportionately. Which combined with your perpensity to argue about everything, makes it impossible to have a logic based discussion with you possible.

You aren't the smartest guy in the room on every subject.
 
Your dodging Buzz. How many acres of the west has burned in the last 30 years?
*You're.

I'm not dodging chit, you're in over your head.

You got called and you're holding rags...most smart players know when to fold.

Hint: NIFC
 
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It May Have Been Better Than a Few Previous Years And Better Than Post Years!

Sure As HELL Not The Best It's Ever Been!

I Mighta Been Born Late,That I'll Admit!

But I Wasn't Born This F'N Late!

I agree it wasn’t the best the deer herd has ever been. I also don’t think anyone claimed it was the best deer herd Utah has ever had. Can’t is just using fake news to illustrate his frustration with the DWR numbers.

Can’t blame can’t for being frustrated. One day I’m going to be king and he will get a few of his ideas implemented.
 
*You're.

I'm not dodging chit, you're in over your head.

You got called and you're holding rags...most smart players know when to fold.

Hint: NIFC
You are still dodging. How many acres in the west have burned?

Simple question. Why are you scared to answer it.
 
You are still dodging. How many acres in the west have burned?

Simple question. Why are you scared to answer it.
Go educate yourself, last time: NIFC. I don't work for free, and not for you.

I'm sure you'll argue with the guys in Boise.
 
Go educate yourself, last time: NIFC. I don't work for free, and not for you.

I'm sure you'll argue with the guys in Boise.
Still scared. It's just a question. A little question you can't answer after all your big talk.

Sure looks like the player on the field can't even tie his laces on his cleats.

I think you knew I was right with my initial statement but it's more fun acting big man around here instead of actually helping deer.
 
Here's What I've Seen Happen With Fires Here On The South Slope Over The Years!

There's Different Kind Of Fires That Affect The Lay Of The Land Differently!

I Don't Really Agree With Prescribed Fall Time Burns,However,I Know They Need To Do Them In The Fall When It's Cooler & They Have A Better Chance Of Controlling These Burns!

These Types Of Burns Are Not EXTREMELY HOT Types Of Burns If they Keep Them Under Control!

And They're Not trying To Burn All The Big Trees Up!

I've Seen Some Good Done With These Types Of Burns For Deer For 2-3 Years After The Burns,But After That The New Feed/And Whatever Else The Deer Likes Within That New Growth Peters Out in 2-3 Years!

One Problem That Comes With It Is The Burn Area Will Pull Deer In From A Drainage From The West & East Of That Burn & A Bunch Of Them Get Shot During Seasons Because They're More Congregated!

The Other Type Of Burns:

We Had A HOT Burn A Couple Years Ago!

This BITTCH Done Some Major Damage!

Did It Burn HOT?

That'd Be An Understatement!

It Burnt & Charred Everything To A Crisp!

It Burnt Everything Up So HOT Nothing Wants To Grow Back!

Since This HOT Burn Happened,Every-time We Get A Rain Storm Now It Raises Major Hell & The Erosion Is Beyond Belief!

It Burnt So Hot There Isn't Any Trees Growing Back Neither!

She Put A Perty Good Scar On Mother Earth!

There Was Alot Of Cover For WildLife But Now There Isn't Any Cover Left,It Burnt So HOT There Is Nothing,Maybe Some Cheat Grass!

All The Locals Are Not Happy!

And I QUOTE:

They Claim The USFS Could'of Put It Out But Decided to LET-R-BURN!
 
Still scared. It's just a question. A little question you can't answer after all your big talk.

Sure looks like the player on the field can't even tie his laces on his cleats.

I think you knew I was right with my initial statement but it's more fun acting big man around here instead of actually helping deer.
You know that thing you're typing on, connected to that other thing Al Gore invented?

Yeah, you can use it for more than making yourself look like a 🤡 and arguing for the sake of arguing.

There's cool data out there with State, Regional, and nation wide reporting for just what you're looking for!

Most all the NFs provide even better data, complete with all kinds of GIS (Google it, laffin') showing exactly what you're looking for.

I can do it for you, $155/hour...20 hour minimum.

I'll provide state specific reports, regional data, and GIS (have you googled it yet?) layers pertinent to what you're asking.

Let your education begin.
 
Fire is part of the lifecycle for everything in the west, nobody is debating that.

The number of acres burnt, and the intensity has been higher over the last 30 years nobody can argue that.

Deer numbers are lower most everywhere, if not everywhere today than they were 30 years ago nobody can argue that.

So the cause for the mule deer decline may vary from area to area but it's obviously not the lack of fire causing it.

My opinion is predation is the #1 cause, here in eastern OR there's no question it's the top cause. now that the deer are gone the elk numbers are in decline. thousands of lion that can't be hunted with dogs have worked them over and now the wolves are moving in. the deer aren't extinct but they're on their way there.
 
Just a simple question with a simple number that you can't answer.

Look at the time you have wasted dodging it.
 
Fire is part of the lifecycle for everything in the west, nobody is debating that.

The number of acres burnt, and the intensity has been higher over the last 30 years nobody can argue that.

Deer numbers are lower most everywhere, if not everywhere today than they were 30 years ago nobody can argue that.

So the cause for the mule deer decline may vary from area to area but it's obviously not the lack of fire causing it.

My opinion is predation is the #1 cause, here in eastern OR there's no question it's the top cause. now that the deer are gone the elk numbers are in decline. thousands of lion that can't be hunted with dogs have worked them over and now the wolves are moving in. the deer aren't extinct but they're on their way there.
Go back and read my original post. I told you there were lots of reasons for the decline, but you won't level things out until you rebuild the relationship between fire and western wildlife.

I didn't say fire would fix everything. But you can't fix everything without it.
 
Just a simple question with a simple number that you can't answer.

Look at the time you have wasted dodging it.
Tri, I don't walk into your taxidermy shop demanding a free mount.

why do you feel it's perfectly fine for you to walk into mine looking for a handout?

If I want a free deer mount I have to do it myself.

Savvy?
 
Go back and read my original post. I told you there were lots of reasons for the decline, but you won't level things out until you rebuild the relationship between fire and western wildlife.

I didn't say fire would fix everything. But you can't fix everything without it.
The lack of fire excuse for mule deer declines, went up in smoke the past 30 years, literally.
 
Elk are the future of western hunting. I don't think that means that mule deer will go extinct. They are just super fragile compared to other game species. If the mule deer disappear, I vote that we bring in whitetail to fill the gap in our freezers.
This is already happening naturally. White tail are moving west in the ag / flat lands and pushing MD out. Couple of outfitters that I’ve chatted with in NM would shoot every white tail possible as they are pushing out MD.
 
Tri, I don't walk into your taxidermy shop demanding a free mount.

why do you feel it's perfectly fine for you to walk into mine looking for a handout?

If I want a free deer mount I have to do it myself.

Savvy?
I didn't demand a free mount.

If you walk in my shop and ask how much and how long I tell you. No charge and no beating g around the bush.

You're just scared or ignorant.
 
The lack of fire excuse for mule deer declines, went up in smoke the past 30 years, literally.
Because any biologist realizes it is almost never the case that any singular issue is the reason for a species population crash.

You might want to go actually read the statement I made.
 
I didn't demand a free mount.

If you walk in my shop and ask how much and how long I tell you. No charge and no beating g around the bush.

You're just scared or ignorant.
I told you how much and to fulfill your inquiry, I can have your data request to you by January 30.

No charge for my quote either.
 
I've Got A Question For The Pro's:

Anybody Know Why The Fires Were Once Called Controlled Burns & Now They Are Called Prescribed Burns?:D:D:D
 
I told you how much and to fulfill your inquiry, I can have your data request to you by January 30.

No charge for my quote either.
So you don't know.

All that big talk and you don't know.


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

So much for being a player.
 
Just a simple question with a simple number that you can't answer.

Look at the time you have wasted dodging it.
You’re gonna need to file a GRAMA request……. They’ll work really cheap then. …. there may be time restraints too.
 
Fire is part of the lifecycle for everything in the west, nobody is debating that.

The number of acres burnt, and the intensity has been higher over the last 30 years nobody can argue that.

Deer numbers are lower most everywhere, if not everywhere today than they were 30 years ago nobody can argue that.

So the cause for the mule deer decline may vary from area to area but it's obviously not the lack of fire causing it.

My opinion is predation is the #1 cause, here in eastern OR there's no question it's the top cause. now that the deer are gone the elk numbers are in decline. thousands of lion that can't be hunted with dogs have worked them over and now the wolves are moving in. the deer aren't extinct but they're on their way there.
I beg to differ!
Not the only cause and not the cause in all areas but still a major cause.
But I won't waste my breath the likes of you!
 
You’re gonna need to file a GRAMA request……. They’ll work really cheap then. …. there may be time restraints too.
No you don't, you just have to do some research.

I think what you meant was FOIA.
 
So difficult.

You can lead tri to water, but he'll just argue over the viscosity...
 
Dont have time to read all the post on here, but seems to me that every mule deer discussion guys try to put the blame of declining animals on one thing.
There are multiple issues effecting mule deer not just one.
 
1. Better hunters
2. Long range hunting
(Rifle, Archery, and Muzzloader)
3. More knowledge for the dumbest people to get ahold of.
4. Loss of winter range ( not from cows, cattle have been grazing all over for 100+ years) people are intruding on winter range more and more every year!
5. Greed (shed hunting)
6. Poaching
7. Road kills. (Higher speeds less reaction time for both animals and people.
8. Miss management
9. More predators
10. People in general

Here's a question for 50+ year old hunters on here. Whats has changed, hunting wise, from this decade compared to the 80s?
 
Hey ID?

You Ever See HELL-RIGHT?

1. Better hunters
2. Long range hunting
(Rifle, Archery, and Muzzloader)
3. More knowledge for the dumbest people to get ahold of.
4. Loss of winter range ( not from cows, cattle have been grazing all over for 100+ years) people are intruding on winter range more and more every year!
5. Greed (shed hunting)
6. Poaching
7. Road kills. (Higher speeds less reaction time for both animals and people.
8. Miss management
9. More predators
10. People in general

Here's a question for 50+ year old hunters on here. Whats has changed, hunting wise, from this decade compared to the 80s?
 

Take a look at the disease element section below:​

Colorado Mule Deer in 2021​

Mike Duplan

Decisions made from afar can have dire consequences on mule deer.

There’s a familiar conversation about mule deer that we have heard before and seems to have become more frequently heard again. Mule deer numbers are down, and the deer hunting isn’t what it used to be. The concern isn’t limited to certain places and states but is instead an issue that is seen from the Sonoran Desert to the plains of Alberta and from the coulees of Eastern Colorado to the far western edge of mule deer range in the California Sierras.
Most recently, a downturn in mule deer numbers and hunting quality in Colorado seems to be quite the topic of conversation in hunting circles. This is probably because, one, the state is on the decline, and two, Colorado has always been the go-to state for both opportunity and quality of bucks. Problems mule deer face are not limited to Colorado, and the issues faced by both the species and by hunters deserve a serious conversation.
Recently I was a guest on a podcast with Jason Carter and Adam Bronson of Epic Outdoors. We discussed mule deer hunting in general along with Colorado’s current mule deer hunting conditions and potential. What they both agreed on was they field more questions on Colorado deer applications than any other state or species. We also agreed that there is not a single go-to unit, season, or area in the state where a hunter has a reasonable chance of taking a buck that would justify 20 years’ worth of applications and preference point accumulation. Mature buck numbers are down, and quality hunting opportunities are not commensurate with a perceived preference point value.
MD2.jpg

Words from an Expert

I recently had a candid discussion about mule deer in the Middle Park region with Clay Hill of Hill Guides and Outfitters in Kremmling, Colorado. Clay and his family have been ranching and outfitting in the area for over 40 years, and when I asked him about the current quality of bucks in Middle Park, he said, “It’s the worst I’ve seen in my entire life. My dad says it’s worse than the ’80s and early ‘90s when it was bad. I’ve talked to locals about the deer, and everyone is in complete agreement. Mature bucks are nearly non-existent. I haven’t heard of a single 180-class mule deer on the winter range this year, and many avid shed hunters in the area watch deer.”
When asked about what he thinks is the issue, Clay said, “That’s simple. Too many tags and hunters these days are too good. The CWD excuse doesn’t hold water with me as I personally have never seen a single sick animal, and the positive test result prevalence is very low. We as hunters have killed way too many bucks for too many years. It’s at the point where I would actually like to see them shut down buck hunting for 3-5 years.”
Those are strong words and hold a very pessimistic outlook for that area, but Colorado’s deer woes aren’t limited to Middle Park. The neighboring Eagle County is hailed as the best Colorado deer hunting and has historically been one of, if not the top county for Boone & Crockett mule deer in the entire country. Record-book-eligible deer taken from Eagle county are not often seen these days, but that trend seems to be the norm in Colorado now. In the four years between 2004 and 2007, there were 131 typical B&C bucks taken in Colorado. During the most recent four-year span, there were 37 taken. That’s 350% more Boone & Crockett bucks taken during the 04-07 time period than in the last four years. While B&C entries aren’t the statistical gold standard for mule deer buck age class representation in a herd, there is a reasonable, common-sense correlation to a given percentage of mature bucks that will qualify for B&C out of a sample of mature bucks taken in an area with a genetic potential to produce them. The obvious answer is that there are not as many mature bucks in Colorado as there have been in recent years.
MD3.jpg

Local Evidence

Anecdotal statements from taxidermists all over bear a similar theme. Mature bucks from Colorado have become rare. No longer are there stacks of nice buck racks in taxidermy shops, ready for mounting. Instead, a small handful trickle in from random hunters lucky enough to cross paths with what seems to be an almost unicorn-like animal on the Western Slope of Colorado. One taxidermist I talked to, who wished to remain anonymous, said this: “Fifteen years ago I would have a stack of damn nice bucks in my shop every winter after season, and there were enough big deer killed that some hunters were electing to do European skull mounts of their bucks and sell me the capes to use. Now, I can count the nice bucks I get on one hand and sometimes not use all the fingers. I can’t even find capes to buy when someone has an old mount they want re-done. It’s not just me. I hear the same story from every taxidermist I know.”
Randy Clark, owner of the renowned Traders Rendezvous in Gunnison, Colorado, has lived most of his life in the Gunnison Basin and has been in the hunting business for decades. He says deer hunting in the area is an item of concern and controversy. Randy states that hunters with stacks of preference points have drawn buck tags in the surrounding units of the “Basin” which are, in theory, managed for quality, not quantity, and have been for over 20 years.
Clark says, “I feel really bad for some of these hunters who have drawn their “Dream Tag” only to come hunting in the area and have trouble finding a mature mule deer. Quite simply put, the state is issuing too many tags, and we are overharvesting our mature bucks and have been so for a few years now. The winter range tells the story. We have a very open, visible, and confined winter range in the Gunnison Basin, so it’s very easy to see what is out there. The giants of the early 2000s are gone, and the bucks we have now just aren’t living long enough, on average, to reach their potential. I know it might not ever be the same as what it was 15 years ago, but I find it truly sad to know that there aren’t many mature mule deer on the landscape anymore.”

Common-Sense Evidence

I consider the Boone & Crockett record book to be a fair barometer of the quality of mule deer hunting in Colorado. It’s quite rare for a hunter to kill more than one in a lifetime, so when hunters do manage to kill a B&C-class buck, I feel like they are more likely than ever before to have it measured and entered. B&C-class mule deer bucks are anomalies in general, for they are rare and uncommon. But I do feel like it is a fair statement to say that they do make up a certain percentage of mature deer, in varying numbers, depending on the local genetic potential and buck numbers if an area has the potential to produce B&C-class deer and has done so historically, yet the number of entries has dropped substantially. A reasonable person can assume that there are far fewer mature bucks in general in the area. Barring a severe winter, hunting is the primary mortality factor in buck numbers, and when we, as hunters, kill too many, both the age class and the buck-to-doe ratio suffer.
MD4.jpg

The Disease Element

Chronic Wasting Disease, known as CWD, is a major factor in mule deer management in Colorado right now. Recently, an attempt has been made to curb the spread and prevalence of CWD in some of Colorado’s deer units by increasing the hunting pressure and buck harvest. In conversations with state wildlife employees that I’ve talked to, the basic premise is that older age class and more mature mule deer are active and mobile during the rut and tend to move from doe group to doe group looking for does in estrus to breed. These bucks have a higher chance of being exposed to CWD, contracting it, and thus spreading it. Buck tag numbers in many areas that have had deer test positive for CWD have been increased dramatically, and in just a few short years, bucks over 2.5 years of age have been wiped out.

Most deer rarely live beyond 10 years of age, so if you have reduced transmission by fewer mature bucks and natural attrition of infected deer, there’s hope that CWD spread will be controlled and infection rates will drop. It’s a hopeful theory that has some research to support the plan, but it truly flies in the face of common sense and is simply not guaranteed to work. You and I, as armchair biologists, have received enough communicable disease infection information in the last year to see that these infectious diseases simply do not go away easily enough. Wherever drastic measures have been taken to control an outbreak, they simply slow the spread but don’t eliminate it. Most places and societies end up with the same infection and death rates eventually in different time frames. The bottom line on CWD is that we are taking incredibly drastic measures on deer herds to combat a disease that hasn’t shown to have more than a single-digit infection rate. Most animals that test positive don’t appear sick, and it’s a disease that still hasn’t infected or killed a single human to date via the consumption of venison.
 
Dont have time to read all the post on here, but seems to me that every mule deer discussion guys try to put the blame of declining animals on one thing.
There are multiple issues effecting mule deer not just one.
Slow down.
Take the time to follow the links.
Nobody is saying it's one thing.
But there more than a few saying it is habitat as a base line. And go from there.

BC's 50+ are being addressed. Maybe not to his satisfaction but show me where they haven't be addressed.
 
Wait Till Niller Reads this!

Hill Isn't Talking Cutting Tags!

He's Sayin To Close It For 3-5 Years!

How Bout Them Apples Niller?

Take a look at the disease element section below:​

Colorado Mule Deer in 2021​

Mike Duplan

Decisions made from afar can have dire consequences on mule deer.

There’s a familiar conversation about mule deer that we have heard before and seems to have become more frequently heard again. Mule deer numbers are down, and the deer hunting isn’t what it used to be. The concern isn’t limited to certain places and states but is instead an issue that is seen from the Sonoran Desert to the plains of Alberta and from the coulees of Eastern Colorado to the far western edge of mule deer range in the California Sierras.
Most recently, a downturn in mule deer numbers and hunting quality in Colorado seems to be quite the topic of conversation in hunting circles. This is probably because, one, the state is on the decline, and two, Colorado has always been the go-to state for both opportunity and quality of bucks. Problems mule deer face are not limited to Colorado, and the issues faced by both the species and by hunters deserve a serious conversation.
Recently I was a guest on a podcast with Jason Carter and Adam Bronson of Epic Outdoors. We discussed mule deer hunting in general along with Colorado’s current mule deer hunting conditions and potential. What they both agreed on was they field more questions on Colorado deer applications than any other state or species. We also agreed that there is not a single go-to unit, season, or area in the state where a hunter has a reasonable chance of taking a buck that would justify 20 years’ worth of applications and preference point accumulation. Mature buck numbers are down, and quality hunting opportunities are not commensurate with a perceived preference point value.
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Words from an Expert

I recently had a candid discussion about mule deer in the Middle Park region with Clay Hill of Hill Guides and Outfitters in Kremmling, Colorado. Clay and his family have been ranching and outfitting in the area for over 40 years, and when I asked him about the current quality of bucks in Middle Park, he said, “It’s the worst I’ve seen in my entire life. My dad says it’s worse than the ’80s and early ‘90s when it was bad. I’ve talked to locals about the deer, and everyone is in complete agreement. Mature bucks are nearly non-existent. I haven’t heard of a single 180-class mule deer on the winter range this year, and many avid shed hunters in the area watch deer.”
When asked about what he thinks is the issue, Clay said, “That’s simple. Too many tags and hunters these days are too good. The CWD excuse doesn’t hold water with me as I personally have never seen a single sick animal, and the positive test result prevalence is very low. We as hunters have killed way too many bucks for too many years. It’s at the point where I would actually like to see them shut down buck hunting for 3-5 years.”
Those are strong words and hold a very pessimistic outlook for that area, but Colorado’s deer woes aren’t limited to Middle Park. The neighboring Eagle County is hailed as the best Colorado deer hunting and has historically been one of, if not the top county for Boone & Crockett mule deer in the entire country. Record-book-eligible deer taken from Eagle county are not often seen these days, but that trend seems to be the norm in Colorado now. In the four years between 2004 and 2007, there were 131 typical B&C bucks taken in Colorado. During the most recent four-year span, there were 37 taken. That’s 350% more Boone & Crockett bucks taken during the 04-07 time period than in the last four years. While B&C entries aren’t the statistical gold standard for mule deer buck age class representation in a herd, there is a reasonable, common-sense correlation to a given percentage of mature bucks that will qualify for B&C out of a sample of mature bucks taken in an area with a genetic potential to produce them. The obvious answer is that there are not as many mature bucks in Colorado as there have been in recent years.
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Local Evidence

Anecdotal statements from taxidermists all over bear a similar theme. Mature bucks from Colorado have become rare. No longer are there stacks of nice buck racks in taxidermy shops, ready for mounting. Instead, a small handful trickle in from random hunters lucky enough to cross paths with what seems to be an almost unicorn-like animal on the Western Slope of Colorado. One taxidermist I talked to, who wished to remain anonymous, said this: “Fifteen years ago I would have a stack of damn nice bucks in my shop every winter after season, and there were enough big deer killed that some hunters were electing to do European skull mounts of their bucks and sell me the capes to use. Now, I can count the nice bucks I get on one hand and sometimes not use all the fingers. I can’t even find capes to buy when someone has an old mount they want re-done. It’s not just me. I hear the same story from every taxidermist I know.”
Randy Clark, owner of the renowned Traders Rendezvous in Gunnison, Colorado, has lived most of his life in the Gunnison Basin and has been in the hunting business for decades. He says deer hunting in the area is an item of concern and controversy. Randy states that hunters with stacks of preference points have drawn buck tags in the surrounding units of the “Basin” which are, in theory, managed for quality, not quantity, and have been for over 20 years.
Clark says, “I feel really bad for some of these hunters who have drawn their “Dream Tag” only to come hunting in the area and have trouble finding a mature mule deer. Quite simply put, the state is issuing too many tags, and we are overharvesting our mature bucks and have been so for a few years now. The winter range tells the story. We have a very open, visible, and confined winter range in the Gunnison Basin, so it’s very easy to see what is out there. The giants of the early 2000s are gone, and the bucks we have now just aren’t living long enough, on average, to reach their potential. I know it might not ever be the same as what it was 15 years ago, but I find it truly sad to know that there aren’t many mature mule deer on the landscape anymore.”

Common-Sense Evidence

I consider the Boone & Crockett record book to be a fair barometer of the quality of mule deer hunting in Colorado. It’s quite rare for a hunter to kill more than one in a lifetime, so when hunters do manage to kill a B&C-class buck, I feel like they are more likely than ever before to have it measured and entered. B&C-class mule deer bucks are anomalies in general, for they are rare and uncommon. But I do feel like it is a fair statement to say that they do make up a certain percentage of mature deer, in varying numbers, depending on the local genetic potential and buck numbers if an area has the potential to produce B&C-class deer and has done so historically, yet the number of entries has dropped substantially. A reasonable person can assume that there are far fewer mature bucks in general in the area. Barring a severe winter, hunting is the primary mortality factor in buck numbers, and when we, as hunters, kill too many, both the age class and the buck-to-doe ratio suffer.
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The Disease Element

Chronic Wasting Disease, known as CWD, is a major factor in mule deer management in Colorado right now. Recently, an attempt has been made to curb the spread and prevalence of CWD in some of Colorado’s deer units by increasing the hunting pressure and buck harvest. In conversations with state wildlife employees that I’ve talked to, the basic premise is that older age class and more mature mule deer are active and mobile during the rut and tend to move from doe group to doe group looking for does in estrus to breed. These bucks have a higher chance of being exposed to CWD, contracting it, and thus spreading it. Buck tag numbers in many areas that have had deer test positive for CWD have been increased dramatically, and in just a few short years, bucks over 2.5 years of age have been wiped out.

Most deer rarely live beyond 10 years of age, so if you have reduced transmission by fewer mature bucks and natural attrition of infected deer, there’s hope that CWD spread will be controlled and infection rates will drop. It’s a hopeful theory that has some research to support the plan, but it truly flies in the face of common sense and is simply not guaranteed to work. You and I, as armchair biologists, have received enough communicable disease infection information in the last year to see that these infectious diseases simply do not go away easily enough. Wherever drastic measures have been taken to control an outbreak, they simply slow the spread but don’t eliminate it. Most places and societies end up with the same infection and death rates eventually in different time frames. The bottom line on CWD is that we are taking incredibly drastic measures on deer herds to combat a disease that hasn’t shown to have more than a single-digit infection rate. Most animals that test positive don’t appear sick, and it’s a disease that still hasn’t infected or killed a single human to date via the consumption of venison.
 
I'll admit I didn't study the detail but what exactly are you disagreeing with?
Killing possible CWD deer?
I'll admit I'm on the fence And no I don't agree with it in general.
 
No place has seen a worse decline than Oregon. and to date we have zero cases of CWD. sure CWD could be an issue some places but OR is proof it's not a leading cause most places.

The winter range excuse holds no water here either. much of eastern OR was grazed by sheep when I was a kid, now it's moderately grazed by cattle. some allotments aren't hardly grazed at all anymore. the overall condition of the habitat is better than the 60's and 70's without question.

Too many deer tags are still issued, I advocate for closing the season until deer exceed the objective numbers. but the overall number of deer taken by hunters is a fraction of what it used to be.

I'm not saying the cause in every state is the same as here, I'm saying some of the suggested causes don't hold up in real life scenarios.
 
Well!

There's No Doubt there's A Little CWD Around!

And It Kills A Few Deer!

The Game & Fish Have Killed Way More Deer Than The CWD Would Of Ever Killed!

The SAD Part Of The Whole Deal it's Put A Real Hurt On The Older Age Class Of Deer By Over-Hunting Them!

Yes:We Know Buck Don't Have Fawns For The Billionth F'N Time!

Perty Sad That Some Hunters Have Many Years/Decades Of Building points In Hopes To Maybe Have A Chance At A Better Quality Buck & Then They Turn Everything In To MONEY & GREED & Use The BS Excuse That They Are Gonna Shoot & Sell Way More Tags Than They Should To Eradicate The CWD!

WAFJ!




I'll admit I didn't study the detail but what exactly are you disagreeing with?
Killing possible CWD deer?
I'll admit I'm on the fence And no I don't agree with it in general.
 

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