Are Mule Deer Going Extinct?

Stillwater165 said:
Biggest damn problem the mule deer has in my eyes is ……….people ! In general !
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That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.
 
Yes!

We Are The Problem!

We Were Dumb Enough To F'It Up!

But Are We Smart Enough To Fix It?

Na!

We Ain't That Smart!



Captain_coues said:
That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.
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elkassassin said:
Yes!

We Are The Problem!

We Were Dumb Enough To F'It Up!

But Are We Smart Enough To Fix It?

Na!

We Ain't That Smart!
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We’re not interested in fixing it if it involves us changing our attitude or behavior. It sounds better to blame predators and fires. Passing blame has been our thing for a few decades now. It’s not fashionable to think we have anything to do with something going wrong.

The rate of decay is fast. The only thing I see is to get out and enjoy what’s left as often as you can because in 20 or more years it will be vastly different than what it is now. It won’t change. The young people now that will replace us know only to use things up.
 
It is a legitimate subject, especially if you're a hunter. and extinction normally doesn't happen overnight, but we're well on the way.

My question is, who here can say there are too many bucks and numbers are over a reasonable objective in their area? and if there are not, why are we hunting them at all?

It's clear what we're doing is not working. pretending it's okay is ignorant.
 
The place I hunt in Southern Colorado had massive Spruce beetle kill about 10 years ago. The space between the dead trees is full of growth. I've noticed a major increase in deer numbers starting about 5 years ago.
 
I can completely and obviously understand losses of winter range impacting deer in urban areas, but if we look at more rural areas like the units in central Utah there's something else happening.
Look at the Beaver unit, the deer numbers there have plummeted beyond belief.....why??
 
It’s a uniquely American, first world problem. We want things and don’t like to be told no. It would certainly help if permit numbers were cut way back or off for a long period of time. The problem there is telling us no. Someone with 20+ points that has waited for so long to get a tag feels like they’re entitled to one. If doing without means positives for deer, we’re not down for that until we get ours. It doesn’t even need to be 20 years when we want things. Just blame it on environmental reasons and not financial or social beliefs.

It’s nice to have a place out in the sticks, but when we eat up all of the spaces that are nice and the deer don’t like being close to us, we need to think about what to do there. That is the biggest thing I see. Open spaces going away for us to satisfy our wants and desires to live farther away from others. I share that same feeling, but see something wrong with it in the long term. Here is a pic of what I’m talking about. It shows a place that could be nice except for the people out there. Some places are worse and some even have junk yards in their 8-40 acres and are quite the mess.

In the far future, we will still see deer and antelope, but they will be hemmed in to the national parks like the third world countries that used up their nice land.

8B521726-F464-4029-9E18-3ED759834AD0.jpeg
 
Captain_coues said:
It would certainly help if permit numbers were cut way back or off for a long period of time.
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I don’t think I could disagree more that it “certainly” would help to stop hunting buck mule deer.

Hunting isn’t a limiting factor on mule deer herd growth. And if it’s not a limiting factor, then stopping hunting isn’t going to help solve the lack of herd growth.

This is the problem, is we can’t even actually identify the problem!
 
I think it’s funny when people use words they don’t know the meaning of! Extinct!! :LOL: Hilarious!

Correct me if I’m wrong but the conversation you guys are actually having is will there be a bunch of big bucks all over for me to hunt the rest of my life? That one would be a relevant one. Probably won’t like the answer.

But I don’t for a minute think one of extinction is a serious concern to anyone here. Why? Well I see a serious lack in threads on this site about white rhinos from all you concerned and expert environmentalists. So forgive me if I see this as disingenuous. Ole meat eater got you all on the click bait though. Good for him.

Since I’m here to help- the thread was proposing a question “are mule deer going extinct”

Answer- no

Proof- I could go buy a deer tag this afternoon, I can not go buy a white rhinoceros tag this afternoon

Your welcome
 
It sounds like there is a lot of guys on this site that support the "Green New Deal"
Yes let's all move into the city centers and live in apartment high rises that are built out of recycled material, and we can eat laboratory produced food that is genetically engineered to keep us healthy. We can apply for one trip a year that will allow us to go out of the city center and recreate for three days in the wilderness but it will be lottery to decide what time of the year you will be allowed your trip.
We can limit each Hunter to one deer permit every twenty years and one bull elk permit every thirty years, this should allow every Hunter a opportunity at a 200 plus inch buck and a 390 plus inch bull.
Remember guys this is for the survival of the deer and elk herds, if you do not support these ideas then you are selfish and don't care about the future of hunting for your children.

PS
No other opinions matter
 
The Beaver unit is a perfect example. The feed in that area is fine. The deer herd has declined greatly both bucks and does. So when it gets to the point it is now where there is just no deer what does the mule deer plan say we should do?
 
They Say:

Let's Keep Over Hunting Them!

They MIGHT Have CWD!

Bucks Don't Have Fawns!

So Let's Keep Shooting Does!

Let's Keep Turning Deer We Don't Have In To $$$!



southernutahhunter said:
The Beaver unit is a perfect example. The feed in that area is fine. The deer herd has declined greatly both bucks and does. So when it gets to the point it is now where there is just no deer what does the mule deer plan say we should do?
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elkassassin said:
They Say:

Let's Keep Over Hunting Them!

They MIGHT Have CWD!

Bucks Don't Have Fawns!

So Let's Keep Shooting Does!

Let's Keep Turning Deer We Don't Have In To $$$.
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Complete extinction- I dont see that happening. But extinction of trophy caliber bucks ? Yeah for sure that’s already happening all over. Here in Colorado when they went to a total draw I believe in 1999 after a few years later we had a great run for a long time, but with alot of factors it’s been in a down ward spiral . Sucks for the public land hunter. I can see big private ranches being able to manage better ( if it’s managed right) but already big big money for a quality buck and that’s only going to get worse as the monster Muley so to speak becomes more like the dinosaur. It Sucks-it’s my favorite animal to hunt.
 
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No one wants to tackle a deer herd that is so low in numbers, but would rather say it is not that bad deer are still out there just need one more good weather year.
 
WOW!

notdon You're More Secluded Than I Thought You Were!

HINT:

They Are Hunting Does Right Now Around Here In One Of The Poorest Units Around!

Utah Hunt Planner -- Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources' Utah Hunt Planner is an interactive map designed to help hunters research hunting units. The Utah Hunt Planner also provides the legal hunting boundaries approved by the Utah Wildlife Board. Research hunts and units before you apply in the big game...
dwrapps.utah.gov



notdonhunting said:
Where are they shooting does?

If you say it enough I guess people will believe you.
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elkassassin said:
That Would Happen To Be The Species We Are Talking About Pickett!
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Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.

Let’s all push the narrative though. You want mule deer hunting to come to an end, get them listed in the endangered species act. That’ll do it
 
You Might Wanna Do Some Research Of What I've Been Screaming For Years!

JFYI!

It Isn't Me Wanting Them To Become Endangered Or Extinct!





JPickett said:
Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.

Let’s all push the narrative though. You want mule deer hunting to come to an end, get them listed in the endangered species act. That’ll do it
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JPickett said:
Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.

Let’s all push the narrative though. You want mule deer hunting to come to an end, get them listed in the endangered species act. That’ll do it
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As a personal exemption even though it is my thread, I didn't title it.

Are our MD headed for "extinction"?
No, that's ludicrous to think that even 100 years from now.
 
elkassassin said:
You Might Wanna Do Some Research Of What I've Been Screaming For Years!

JFYI!

It Isn't Me Wanting Them To Become Endangered Or Extinct!
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You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered species

That might be the most un informed thing I’ve ever read.

In no way shape or form could mule deer on the North American continent be considered endangered or in danger of extinction
 
I don’t know what you call it when hunters go out in the hills and come back not seeing deer? I don’t know what you call it when landowners once had 100’s of deer in there fields (myself being one of these) and now lucky to see one or two. I don’t know what you call it when winter grounds along parowan and cedar city, Panguitch, Circleville were once full of deer and now it is alarming to see the decline. I don’t know what you call local butchers say they hardly get a deer brought in anymore?

This may not be the definition of extinct or endangered but it for sure is a cause of great concern. I know a deer when I see one and I can tell you extinct or not, I am not seeing deer.
 
What if there's something happening that hunters and even a lot of biologists say can't happen? What if we are hanging onto a piece of science that is incorrect?

Maybe people bring it up and everyone laughs it off as contrary to common sense?

Maybe it's happening right there in the beaver unit.
 
JPickett said:
You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered species

That might be the most un informed thing I’ve ever read.

In no way shape or form could mule deer on the North American continent be considered endangered or in danger of extinction
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The conversation is could mule deer go extinct, not are they extinct. get in the game. of course they will go extinct, all life on this planet will go extinct at some time that's an absolute certainty. the hope is that's a long time from now. but for mule deer it could be much sooner so stop with the ignorant argument everything is fine.

If killing thousands of deer every year has no effect on their population, why is my cattle herd smaller since I shipped in October? how can that be? do tell.
 
southernutahhunter said:
I don’t know what you call it when hunters go out in the hills and come back not seeing deer? I don’t know what you call it when landowners once had 100’s of deer in there fields (myself being one of these) and now lucky to see one or two. I don’t know what you call it when winter grounds along parowan and cedar city, Panguitch, Circleville were once full of deer and now it is alarming to see the decline. I don’t know what you call local butchers say they hardly get a deer brought in anymore?

This may not be the definition of extinct or endangered but it for sure is a cause of great concern. I know a deer when I see one and I can tell you extinct or not, I am not seeing deer.
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You don’t call it extinct thats for sure. Unless of course you’re looking for clicks, web traffic or getting utards all in a panic. Then I guess you call it that
 
I Didn't Say They Were Endangered Yet!

In Your Eyes Just Because The UDWR Sells 2 Doe Permits You Think We've Got An Over Abundance Of Deer!

You Are Wrong!

JPickett said:
You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered species

That might be the most un informed thing I’ve ever read.

In no way shape or form could mule deer on the North American continent be considered endangered or in danger of extinction
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
I Didn't Say They Were Endangered Yet!

In Your Eyes Just Because The UDWR Sells 2 Doe Permits You Think We've Got An Over Abundance Of Deer!

You Are Wrong!
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Never said that. Said if they were endangered there would be zero tags. You know like how you can’t buy a grizzly tag.
 
I'm just Sayin:

With the Deer herd In The Shape It's In,There Shouldn't Be A Doe Hunt Anywhere In This State!

All We hear Now Is: Bucks Don't Have Fawns!

But We Are Still Shootin Baby Makers!

I've Already Seen The Deer Herd In This State Shot Out & Down So Bad Several Big Units/Regions Had To Be CLOSED!

I Damn Sure Don't Wanna See It Again!

But Keep Hammering Them Like We've Been Hammering Them & Guess What?

JPickett said:
That I completely agree with and have the same opinion to my state. But that opinion is not in anyway formed out of worry for an extinction event
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JPickett said:
Nice try, but re read the article title. Not “could” but “are” it’s a nuance that may be over your head, but it kinda matters
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The question mark turns "are" into a "could". it's a question not a statement.

You can work on your punctuation comprehension after you master simple basic math. you skipped that question.
 
Togwotee said:
is a legitimate subject, especially if you're a hunter. and extinction normally doesn't happen overnight, but we're well on the way
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No seriously. Tell me again how this “ legitimate subject” about being “ well on the way” is then realize how stupid you sound and tell me it’s a “could happen” because anything “could happen”

Really enlightening listen to you. So smart
 
I’ll try to keep my thoughts from frustrating any personal or individual comments here.

IMO we are all simply speculating and commenting on our perceptions, based on our observations in the field as well as our personal reading and research on the mule deer.

North American species have gone extinct, other species, particularly current big game species have “nearly” gone extinct, in the last century and a half. Bison, elk, bighorn sheep, pronghorn, came within a few hundred/thousand head of extinction and even whitetail deer went through a period of watchful anguish when they declined severely in the late 1800 early 1900’s. Historic writings blame mostly over hunting for the declines and near extinction of these animals.

Concern for mule deer is not unfounded, however, as in the past, many hunters reject the idea that mule could or will suffer a similar fate. Normal reaction, if past history is accurate or has any value in considering current conditions. Many simple will not see it as alarming or threatening.

Eventually, I have hope someone with enough power and influence will step forward and do for mule deer what others have done for whitetail deer……. but with the exception of sheep and elk, it’s mostly been done, not by government bureaucrats but by private land owners. Seems that is where has got to happen with mule deer as well.
 
elkassassin said:
WOW!

notdon You're More Secluded Than I Thought You Were!

HINT:

They Are Hunting Does Right Now Around Here In One Of The Poorest Units Around!

Utah Hunt Planner -- Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources' Utah Hunt Planner is an interactive map designed to help hunters research hunting units. The Utah Hunt Planner also provides the legal hunting boundaries approved by the Utah Wildlife Board. Research hunts and units before you apply in the big game...
dwrapps.utah.gov
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I honestly thought there was only some doe hunts that were allowed because of ag land problems and city problems.
My apologies bessy
 
notdonhunting said:
I honestly thought there was only some doe hunts that were allowed because of ag land problems and city problems.
My apologies bessy
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That still doesn't equate for the non hunted doe areas around the state where overall deer numbers are still declining, doe hunts are isolated.
 
Captain_coues said:
That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.
Click to expand...
Predators are the overall biggest reason why deer numbers are held down and not able to recover in many areas.
 
ridgetops said:
Predators are the overall biggest reason why deer numbers are held down and not able to recover in many areas.
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Don't give any mind to you know who, he just has a tree hugger/liberal mentality. Watch him try to say something to me and I'll just ignore him as always. Really pisses him off😂.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
Don't give any mind to you know who, he just has a tree hugger/liberal mentality. Watch him try to say something to me and I'll just ignore him as always. Really pisses him off😂.
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Scary you’re a principal at a school. And you’re even a bigger fool if you think I care about anything you say or do.
 
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SS! said:
All of them. Limit utards to two kids. Protect winter range. All of it is possible. But yeah that’s difficult and the most work so let’s just blame predators! 😂
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People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.
 
What if it was really only about money?

I found half a dead one yesterday. Ima poke around a little bit to see what extincted his azz.
 
ridgetops said:
People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.
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He's not capable of understanding that, Ridge.

He can't even comprehend this isn't a Utah issue.
 
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JimNv said:
I think with the introduction of wolves in some intermountain states as well as packs coming into areas where they never really were before, we are going to see losses. Case in point, last winter was a MF'r in my neck of the woods. We lost a lot of deer just to the snow. Now put wolves in the mix and even the healthiest of deer in any given winter are going to be affected.
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Wolves don’t even make the top 10 on the highlight reel of what’s impacting mule deer populations. Hint, if you look in the mirror you’ll see atleast 8 of the top 10
 
So could anyone think of a theory that is really just common sense knowledge about mule deer that could be wrong and hurting mule deer?

:unsure:

Come on fellas. It gets mentioned on almost every mule deer thread and has been mentioned here.
 
SS! said:
All of them. Limit utards to two kids. Protect winter range. All of it is possible. But yeah that’s difficult and the most work so let’s just blame predators! 😂
Click to expand...

Very rational response if you’re in communist China. Well done!
 
Tristate said:
So could anyone think of a theory that is really just common sense knowledge about mule deer that could be wrong and hurting mule deer?

:unsure:

Come on fellas. It gets mentioned on almost every mule deer thread and has been mentioned here.
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Killing off your prime breeding age class deer??
 
ridgetops said:
People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.
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Of course predators are a factor but to say they are the main reason is total BS. Do you group hunters in with the predators? 80%? Ok pull numbers out of your ass.

LET THE MDF MANAGE PREDATORS. THEY WILL NEARLY BE GONE IN 35 YEARS AND WE WILL END UP WITH A SWEET YOUTUBE VIDEO
 
And here I thought roadrunner was obsessed with me, but what SS has going on for slam is a bit weird.

It’s 2023, I won’t judge! Carry on boys and girls.
 
Tristate said:
Hey, somebody give Rie Bread some butta!

Maybe a handful of 1 and 2 year old bucks can't breed all those doe.
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Ranchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….
Edit- bulls not steers, was being to generalized.
 
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Mule deer are going extinct in the same sense that a perfectly healthy person is in fact dying every second they are alive. Its a slow burn but nobody can stop the inevitable. Better debate: who goes extinct first? Humans or mule deer. Perhaps if we do, the deer may stand a chance?

Thanks for the great morning read.
**commence stoning**
 
Togwotee said:
The west has been burning up the last couple decades, if you lived here you'd know that. and the deer numbers continue to fall.

I
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Not at all. There is a huge difference between frequent wildfires that are allowed to burn and the massive fire suppression we currently do. Sorry but he has a point. Even the natives knew the importance of fire and they would often light entire areas on fire in the fall as they left for winter grounds etc.

The fires we have today are nothing like the important fire we had historically.
 
antlerradar said:
Over 2/3 of the Custer forest in SE Montana has burned since 2000, some of it multiple times. No amount of benefit from the fires can over come five weeks of OTC rut hunting and enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck.
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Esxactly. Imagine what it would or could be like if that area did not burn? There is a reason why the animals find the burns and the "newer" habitat. Research out of Colorado Oil and Gas fields showed that mechanical habitat treatments were a huge benefit to the deer. The deer in areas that burned or were mechanically harvested had higher body scores in late winter, were more likely to have viable twins in the spring, they also tended to have fawns later in life, etc.

Forest rejuvenation and habitat treatments have a very real impact on food forage and predators.
 
So speaking of fires and their importance.

I think it's safe to say there are more fires today than ever before simply because human negligence.

Yet here we are, more burn scars and still declining deer numbers.

Perhaps the human caused fire locations are irrelevant to being beneficial?
 
elks96 said:
Not at all. There is a huge difference between frequent wildfires that are allowed to burn and the massive fire suppression we currently do. Sorry but he has a point. Even the natives knew the importance of fire and they would often light entire areas on fire in the fall as they left for winter grounds etc.

The fires we have today are nothing like the important fire we had historically.
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Careful, Buzz will be here to tell you you are wrong but won't actually tell anyone why. He just likes talking about people.
 
slamdunk said:
So speaking of fires and their importance.

I think it's safe to say there are more fires today than ever before simply because human negligence.

Yet here we are, more burn scars and still declining deer numbers.

Perhaps the human caused fire locations are irrelevant to being beneficial?
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It's not safe to say.
 
Reduction of lions in our area has made a big difference to our mule deer population. When the DWR issued harvest objective permits for 86 lions to be taken on the east side of our valley 3 years ago, we saw more than double the number of deer the next winter. So far, it's been holding steady with a slight increase every year since. Now that there isn't an actual lion hunt, trappers will need to step it up if they want to continue to see deer numbers rise.
 
slamdunk said:
So speaking of fires and their importance.

I think it's safe to say there are more fires today than ever before simply because human negligence.

Yet here we are, more burn scars and still declining deer numbers.

Perhaps the human caused fire locations are irrelevant to being beneficial?
Click to expand...
To a certain point yes. On the flip side think of the hundreds possibly thousands of wild fires put out every single year before they even get started... When I worked for the Forest Service there were days where our single Ranger District would extinguish 50-60 fires in a 24 hour period. Would all of them been a full fledge fire? Likely not but on the flipside you get one storm come through and create several lightning strikes it would create way more fires. Sure you hear about man caused fires because they are big news and big money, but what you don't hear about at all are all the small ones extinguished because they are close to oil and gas, or near a power line or... There is no way to say for certain there are more, but I am certain that there a ton of wildfires extinguished every year before they ever get started.
 
This should be fairly easy to verify, in as much as somewhere in the Utah DWR records is the study they did on coyote control on the Monroe Unit about 8 years ago. It was published and available on line for a while after the study was complete. I believe the study was done by the Biological scientists at Utah State and Brigham Young Universities.

As I recall, without perfect memory, the Unit was divided into north and south halves, 3 or 4 years of treatment on the north so they could compare the effective of the treatment to the untreated south half.

As I recall, the Unit was estimated at about 5,500 mule deer at the start of the study. The first year over 100 coyotes were removed from the northern half, by helicopter hunting/killing. Fewer were removed in the following years. As I recall by the 4th year the mule deer population on the Unit had increased to an estimated 7,500 mule deer.

Since the study ended and the helicopter hunting/killing stopped, the population drop back to the mid 5,000 again.

If interested you may wish to search out that study and draw your own conclusions on the predator impact on mule deer in Utah.

Here’s one of the Scientists report. It nothing else, scroll to the bottom and find his final paragraph or conclusion.

 
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2lumpy said:
This should be fairly easy to verify, in as much as somewhere in the Utah DWR records is the study they did on coyote control on the Monroe Unit about 8 years ago. It was published and available on line for a while after the study was complete. I believe the study was done by the Biological scientists at Utah State and Brigham Young Universities.

As I recall, without perfect memory, the Unit was divided into north and south halves, 3 or 4 years of treatment on the north so they could compare the effective of the treatment to the untreated south half.

As I recall, the Unit was estimated at about 5,500 mule deer at the start of the study. The first year over 100 coyotes were removed from the northern half, by helicopter hunting/killing. Fewer were removed in the following years. As I recall by the 4th year the mule deer population on the Unit had increased to an estimated 7,500 mule deer.

Since the study ended and the helicopter hunting/killing stopped, the population drop back to the mid 5,000 again.

If interested you may wish to search out that study and draw your own conclusions on the predator impact on mule deer in Utah.

Here’s one of the Scientists report. It nothing else, scroll to the bottom and find his final paragraph or conclusion.

Click to expand...
This is not a thread on utah.
 
DBLung said:
Reduction of lions in our area has made a big difference to our mule deer population. When the DWR issued harvest objective permits for 86 lions to be taken on the east side of our valley 3 years ago, we saw more than double the number of deer the next winter. So far, it's been holding steady with a slight increase every year since. Now that there isn't an actual lion hunt, trappers will need to step it up if they want to continue to see deer numbers rise.
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Is this Utah? Well then Slamdunk says that’s not relevant.
 
Rie bread said:
Ranchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….
Edit- bulls not steers, was being to generalized.
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Actually rancher do use a lot of 1 and 2 year old bulls to do the breeding, along with older bulls.
The difference with the bulls the ranches use is that the bulls have had to survive several selection cuts for desirable genetics before they ever make the bull sale and see a cow. We do the opposite with mule deer. With deer the bucks with the best genetics are targeted at a young age and to ones with poor genes survive to breed more does.
 
antlerradar said:
Actually rancher do use a lot of 1 and 2 year old bulls to do the breeding, along with older bulls.
The difference with the bulls the ranches use is that the bulls have had to survive several selection cuts for desirable genetics before they ever make the bull sale and see a cow. We do the opposite with mule deer. With deer the bucks with the best genetics are targeted at a young age and to ones with poor genes survive to breed more does.
Click to expand...
Yeah they do but the ability to breed X number of cows is higher with older bulls. So if you have your optimum buck to doe ratio filled with spikes and forks there can’t be nearly the insemination as with older age classes
 
elks96 said:
Esxactly. Imagine what it would or could be like if that area did not burn? There is a reason why the animals find the burns and the "newer" habitat. Research out of Colorado Oil and Gas fields showed that mechanical habitat treatments were a huge benefit to the deer. The deer in areas that burned or were mechanically harvested had higher body scores in late winter, were more likely to have viable twins in the spring, they also tended to have fawns later in life, etc.

Forest rejuvenation and habitat treatments have a very real impact on food forage and predators.
Click to expand...
The hunting and the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires started in 2000. Is the habitat better in the fires, yes, is there more feed for deer in the burns, yes. The deer herd took it in the shorts because the fires removed nearly all the security cover. Now those same deer are much more easy to kill and when you hunt them for OTC for five weeks during the rut and hand out enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck any benefit the fires provided in the from of more food was over come by the lack of a place to hide.
 
Rie bread said:
Yeah they do but the ability to breed X number of cows is higher with older bulls. So if you have your optimum buck to doe ratio filled with spikes and forks there can’t be nearly the insemination as with older age classes
Click to expand...
I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
 
antlerradar said:
I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
Click to expand...
Yeah I’m just making assumptions between cows and deer based off of what my family did ranching and age of their bulls. So I’m sure a young buck(pun intended) can do the job just but might take more time?
Edit- also slightly different as cow in the pasture vs wild deer?
 
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antlerradar said:
The hunting and the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires started in 2000. Is the habitat better in the fires, yes, is there more feed for deer in the burns, yes. The deer herd took it in the shorts because the fires removed nearly all the security cover. Now those same deer are much more easy to kill and when you hunt them for OTC for five weeks during the rut and hand out enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck any benefit the fires provided in the from of more food was over come by the lack of a place to hide
Click to expand...
Exaggerations and lies
 
southernutahhunter said:
If the killing of more predators showed signs of working, why is that not a priority in helping the deer herd increase?
Click to expand...
It’s too expensive. Well, let me restate that.

I asked Justin Shannon that very question when the results of the Monroe Study started to come in.

I got a call from some of the Fish Lake livestock folks. They said they were over run with coyotes and had heard how many had been killed on the Monroe. They wanted to know if the DWR would airial kill coyotes on the Fish Lake as well.

Mr Shannon, said no, he couldn’t. He said everybody on every unit wants the same thing and it simply costs too much. They could only do a few units at a time and that what is they intended to try to do, and Fish Lake was not on the list for the current year.

I protested and argued that “we” needed to raise the money, some how or another. He listened and did not respond, only repeated there would be no airial control on the Fish Lake that year.

( I’ve never followed up to see if other units have received the same treatment the Monroe got. )

Mr Shannon is decent individual, he is still employed at the DWR Office in Salt Lake City. Here’s their number, call him and see if any thing has changed in the last 6-8 years. 801-538-4700
 
Ya if this is a huge factor let’s quit hitting the small things and get right to the problem. Raise tag fees, etc, whatever it takes. I have not seen anything else working!
 
antlerradar said:
I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
Click to expand...
But.....just because a 200" bucks breeds a doe, that doesn't ensure his fawn buck will be a 200" in his prime.
Those genetics all vary due to what the doe has to offer.

Just like humans.
I am 6' tall, my only son is 5'6" at 33 years old.
His mother is 5'4".
 
slamdunk said:
But.....just because a 200" bucks breeds a doe, that doesn't ensure his fawn buck will be a 200" in his prime.
Those genetics all vary due to what the doe has to offer.

Just like humans.
I am 6' tall, my only son is 5'6" at 33 years old.
His mother is 5'4".
Click to expand...
That is true, but if I were to select for the best quality cows and treat my bull herd like we select for bucks. (send the best bulls to market at age two and keep the poor ones to do the bulk of the breeding) It would not be long and I would have very few quality cows to choose from.
 
We Need Some Decent Genetics Left Come RUT Time!

How Often Do You See That Anymore?



antlerradar said:
That is true, but if I were to select for the best quality cows and treat my bull herd like we select for bucks. (send the best bulls to market at age two and keep the poor ones to do the bulk of the breeding) It would not be long and I would have very few quality cows to choose from.
Click to expand...
 
I need to apologize to antlerradar for claiming he lied, I have no ideas if he did.
But exaggerations yes I believe he did exaggerate when he made the statement "the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires of 2000" "deer have no place to hide"
The Oak Creeks is probably one of the best examples you can have of how fire has helped a unit.
For 40 plus years the Oak Creek has been a draw and until the big fires of I believe 2010 the Oak Creek unit was nothing to brag upon and now it might be the best unit in the state, you can go back and find a post I did earlier about my experience with the Oak Creek.
 
Like I Said in An Earlier Reply!

Some Fires Can Be A Good Thing!

But Them Extremely HOT Fires?

I'll Pass On Them!



notdonhunting said:
I need to apologize to antlerradar for claiming he lied, I have no ideas if he did.
But exaggerations yes I believe he did exaggerate when he made the statement "the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires of 2000" "deer have no place to hide"
The Oak Creeks is probably one of the best examples you can have of how fire has helped a unit.
For 40 plus years the Oak Creek has been a draw and until the big fires of I believe 2010 the Oak Creek unit was nothing to brag upon and now it might be the best unit in the state, you can go back and find a post I did earlier about my experience with the Oak Creek.
Click to expand...
 

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