Are Mule Deer Going Extinct?

So I might not be crazy to think predators are a big reason why the deer herds can't recover. In one area I've scouted for the past seven years. I've seen a lot of 170"+ bucks and a few 200" class but it's gone downhill real fast the past three years. This year between my 11 cameras and out hiking around, I never saw a single 3 point or better buck. In fact, I only saw three or four 2 points. I have been getting a steady increase of coyotes, lions and a few bears on my cameras as the deer have been declining. So I ended up hunting a different area a few hours away with much better results.
 
So ridge?

Your HoneyHole Is F'D Up Now?

So I might not be crazy to think predators are a big reason why the deer herds can't recover. In one area I've scouted for the past seven years. I've seen a lot of 170"+ bucks and a few 200" class but it's gone downhill real fast the past three years. This year between my 11 cameras and out hiking around, I never saw a single 3 point or better buck. In fact, I only saw three or four 2 points. I have been getting a steady increase of coyotes, lions and a few bears on my cameras as the deer have been declining. So I ended up hunting a different area a few hours away with much better results.
 
But.....just because a 200" bucks breeds a doe, that doesn't ensure his fawn buck will be a 200" in his prime.
Those genetics all vary due to what the doe has to offer.

Just like humans.
I am 6' tall, my only son is 5'6" at 33 years old.
His mother is 5'4".
You know why big bucks matter? Because likely (not always) a big buck has AGE. You want to know why your snarky 2pt breeding comment doesn't hold water? Well I'm going to type really slow here. If a 2 pt buck which is 1.5 to 2.5 years old breeds what if he passes on a genetic trait where his teeth fall out at 3? Or what if the buck is more susceptible to hair loss? Or has recessive genes that lead to bad eyesight? Thats why you want MATURE animals doing the breeding. Those old mature bucks are passing on the best genetics everytime. They have withstood disease, genetic traits, etc. AGE MATTERS.

So take your theory of it doesn't matter and shove it where the sun don't shine. I know you're really slow so I'll give you a human example for the above. So inferior genetics were passed on. You have no reading comprehension, think you know it all, and couldn't find your way out of a cardboard box without an app on your phone. You went bald early which is not a desirable trait and somehow you passed on your genetic traits. Likely your bloodline would of died out a long time ago but luckily there are meds and social systems setup for you to procreate. This is why society is what it is, failing horribly.

Mule deer are going through much of the same right now. We have a bunch of dumb young bucks doing the breeding. And we are ending up with a bunch of utarded mule deer.

Facts.
 
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I need to apologize to antlerradar for claiming he lied, I have no ideas if he did.
But exaggerations yes I believe he did exaggerate when he made the statement "the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires of 2000" "deer have no place to hide"
The Oak Creeks is probably one of the best examples you can have of how fire has helped a unit.
For 40 plus years the Oak Creek has been a draw and until the big fires of I believe 2010 the Oak Creek unit was nothing to brag upon and now it might be the best unit in the state, you can go back and find a post I did earlier about my experience with the Oak Creek.
I thought you were joking.
First, Utah is not Montana, Utah has its faults, but hunting bucks OTC for five weeks during the rut is not one of them. I am also going to guess that you don't give out 11,000 doe tags for a region bigger than many states. In reality though most of those tags are used on public land and a good portion of those tags are used on the Custer.
Now I have to back myself up like SS said I would.
In my go to creek in the 90's I was able to find 15 bucks that I figured would make 180 and many of those bucks I saw for multiple years. Since the 2000 fire that burned 2/3 of that creek I have seen 3 and non of them lasted more than a year.
Numbers have also dropped. I think at first numbers were better with the better feed, but you can not just keep hauling trucks full of does out of a place and not have a negative result. Last year I drove the bottom of the creek with 6 inches of fresh snow, stopped at all the good glassing spots. Total of 9 deer, two fork horn bucks and 7 does and 6 of the 9 deer were down near the mouth of the creek on private. If I had done that drive and glass in the 90's it would have been a minimum of 50 deer and I might have seen a 100.
Again the benefits of fire can not over come the loss of cover in Montana were we hunt Mule deer OTC for five weeks during the rut.
 
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Colo is a prime example of what can happen in only a handful of years with higher tag numbers and rut hunting dates. Other states can use Colo as a prime example of poor deer management and exactly what not to do!

Colo went from a mule deer mecca to struggling deer in a matter of a few years. The CPW is the main culprit!!!!
 
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Yes Sir!

I'll Spell It Our More Clearly:

PISS POOR MANAGEMENT AT IT'S BEST!

MANAGING FOR BUCK$!

RATHER THAN FOR BUCKS!


Colo is a prime example of what can happen in only a handful of years with higher tag numbers and rut hunting dates. Other states can use Colo as a prime example of poor deer management and exactly what not to do!

Colo went from a mule deer mecca to struggling deer in a matter of a few years. The CPW is the main culprit!!!!
 
I thought you were joking.
First, Utah is not Montana, Utah has its faults, but hunting bucks OTC for five weeks during the rut is not one of them. I am also going to guess that you don't give out 11,000 doe tags for a region bigger than many states. In reality though most of those tags are used on public land and a good portion of those tags are used on the Custer.
Now I have to back myself up like SS said I would.
In my go to creek in the 90's I was able to find 15 bucks that I figured would make 180 and many of those bucks I saw for multiple years. Since the 2000 fire that burned 2/3 of that creek I have seen 3 and non of them lasted more than a year.
Numbers have also dropped. I think at first numbers were better with the better feed, but you can not just keep hauling trucks full of does out of a place and not have a negative result. Last year I drove the bottom of the creek with 6 inches of fresh snow, stopped at all the good glassing spots. Total of 9 deer, two fork horn bucks and 7 does and 6 of the 9 deer were down near the mouth of the creek on private. If I had done that drive and glass in the 90's it would have been a minimum of 50 deer and I might have seen a 100.
Again the benefits of fire can not over come the loss of cover in Montana were we hunt Mule deer OTC for five weeks during the rut.
So what you are saying is the fire was not the issue it was the management decision that allows 5 weeks of OTC and hunting in the rut. If you were not hunting a full 5 weeks over the rut, there is a very high likely hood the deer would be better off.

Also is the size and number of big bucks the only way to measure mule deer health and success? What about fawning weights, body condition, fawn to doe ratios? What about recovery times for herd numbers after extreme winters, etc.

The fire did not harm the animals. Management did...
 
Colo is a prime example of what can happen in only a handful of years with higher tag numbers and rut hunting dates. Other states can use Colo as a prime example of poor deer management and exactly what not to do!

Colo went from a mule deer mecca to struggling deer in a matter of a few years. The CPW is the main culprit!!!!
Yep. I remember loosing my **** on the Bio in Meeker. The year we left they put all the NW tags numbers way too high. They offered over 1300 doe tags for the area and Units 3.4.5.12,211, 11, 22 etc. Are worse that shity compared to what they were a decade a go and really bad compared to 15 years ago. The real BS was they decided that the numbers of deer (which were already below objective were not sustainable). They decided that the appropriate management level needed to be reduced. SO they lowered the herd objective and then tried selling to hunters that we had too many deer so we had to kill the excess. This combined with the idea that we need to kill bucks in the name of CWD and it was a double edged sword. The packing plant in meeker literally turned away hunters because they had too many doe to cut up. When My dad dropped off his buck for processing they had 27 doe mule deer laying on the ground from that morning.

Poor Management is one of the leading causes. Along with Predation (some areas are better than others), Habitat (there are areas where this is the worst thing for example HMAs), Winter Range, Migration, and etc. etc. etc...
 
So I might not be crazy to think predators are a big reason why the deer herds can't recover. In one area I've scouted for the past seven years. I've seen a lot of 170"+ bucks and a few 200" class but it's gone downhill real fast the past three years. This year between my 11 cameras and out hiking around, I never saw a single 3 point or better buck. In fact, I only saw three or four 2 points. I have been getting a steady increase of coyotes, lions and a few bears on my cameras as the deer have been declining. So I ended up hunting a different area a few hours away with much better results.
This year archery season near Baggs we saw more bears than we did legal bucks. It was crazy how many bears were around. we saw 13 bears this archery season, and 9 legal bucks. Once the rifle season started we did not see and bears, and more bucks.

In luckily in WY we have pretty liberal and aggressive predator control(outside of the Grizz and Wolf Zone). There is no doubt that bears are a huge impact on fawns and an areas ability to recover after a hard winter. Lions and bobcats, and coyotes all take a share.
 
I always wonder about the CWD. If those deer are dumb, walk in circles etc, why would they not be easy prey for Lion, coyote, bear. Seems like they would be easiest animals to kill?
 
I always wonder about the CWD. If those deer are dumb, walk in circles etc, why would they not be easy prey for Lion, coyote, bear. Seems like they would be easiest animals to kill?
Predators think those deer infected by CWD are Fish And Game decoys, they’re afraid of them
 
So what you are saying is the fire was not the issue it was the management decision that allows 5 weeks of OTC and hunting in the rut. If you were not hunting a full 5 weeks over the rut, there is a very high likely hood the deer would be better off.

Also is the size and number of big bucks the only way to measure mule deer health and success? What about fawning weights, body condition, fawn to doe ratios? What about recovery times for herd numbers after extreme winters, etc.

The fire did not harm the animals. Management did...
Pretty much. Good habitat can not over come bad management.
 
Pretty much. Good habitat can not over come bad management.
Man….. do I ever love that quote!

I mean that in the most sincere way!

Mind if I use it, in your absence?

Upgrading habitat is about the easiest thing to do……… who doesn’t support better habitat, growing more mule deer seems nearly impossible……. So let’s just take the path of least resistance and grow more plants……. all in agreeance, please raise your hand off your keyboard and, say. “I”.

Thank you.
 
Man….. do I ever love that quote!

I mean that in the most sincere way!

Mind if I use it, in your absence?

Upgrading habitat is about the easiest thing to do……… who doesn’t support better habitat, growing more mule deer seems nearly impossible……. So let’s just take the path of least resistance and grow more plants……. all in agreeance, please raise your hand off your keyboard and, say. “I”.

Thank you.
Annnd stop shooting the piss outta mule deer
 
There's A Quote that Most DRATS Won't Obey!

No Matter The Size Of The Top End/Best Available, They Gotta Shoot The Piss Outa PISSCUTTERS!
Every road kill is one less opportunity…… kill’em all before a car or an eagle kills’em. If a hunter doesn’t kill’em young, something else is going to……. another half truth, to justify the maximum meat in the freezer ideology.
 
The Beaver unit is a perfect example. The feed in that area is fine. The deer herd has declined greatly both bucks and does. So when it gets to the point it is now where there is just no deer what does the mule deer plan say we should do?
Everyone should go to the Expo and ask SFW what happened?
 
I’ll state it again and there is a current study being done that proves my point and what I’ve stated for years… bears, lions, and coyotes are the biggest problem….again a study being done by DWR and BYU to prove this point.
 
I’ll state it again and there is a current study being done that proves my point and what I’ve stated for years… bears, lions, and coyotes are the biggest problem….again a study being done by DWR and BYU to prove this point.
😂😂😂😂 that’s hilarious. I’d believe you if you include humans in there under predation
 
Meanwhile everyone is worried about mule deer, a butt load of 200 plus inch Whitetail are hitting the dirt. Seems like more and more every fall.
 
It's Amazing We Were Never Smart Enough Pre-2023 To Figure Any Of This Out Without Studies & Committee's!

When The 50+ Reasons Why Are Comprehended,Something MIGHT Change!

Until Then!

Just Keep F'N Milkin It!
 
It's Amazing We Were Never Smart Enough Pre-2023 To Figure Any Of This Out Without Studies & Committee's!

When The 50+ Reasons Why Are Comprehended,Something MIGHT Change!

Until Then!

Just Keep F'N Milkin It!
By hell I think we should propose that the DWR should hire you next week.
By the end of next year you would have all are problems fixed.
Then the state of Utah could loan you out to all the other states and you could have there problems fixed too.
You know Bess you would be the most wanted guy around.
 
I did not say one word about tag cuts. I said why waste time on predator study if we know they need be greatly reduced let’s get it done. Not sure how notdone gets tag cuts out of that?
 
Not referring to your comment on predator studies. I agree it is a waste of time.
sorry if that offended you about tag cuts, it seems like you have mentioned in other posts about tag cuts.
I really want to know your suggestions.
 
I Can't Fix It Alone!

But To Keep Going The Same Damn Direction We've Been Going For 50+ Years & Most People Blaming One Item On The BIG LIST Is Ridiculous!

I Thought Humans Were Smarter Than That?

They've Proved Me Wrong On Numerous Occasions!








By hell I think we should propose that the DWR should hire you next week.
By the end of next year you would have all are problems fixed.
Then the state of Utah could loan you out to all the other states and you could have there problems fixed too.
You know Bess you would be the most wanted guy around.
 
Here is the reason for the decline in mule deer in UT. If we can solve the rise of these predators maybe one day the mule deer herds will come back:

utah.JPG


How many deer do tards eat?
How many deer do tard's hit with their MAV's?
How much lower is the carrying capacity due to habitat loss?
Poaching?
The list goes on.
 
Mule deer and antelope evolved with and have a direct relationship with fire. There are multiple factors accelerating their regression. Only when the relationship with fire is restored will you see this species start to level out.

Good luck.
You could be correct about the fire part. Historically burn acreage is way down. A good Forest Service employee would know that too.

 
You could be correct about the fire part. Historically burn acreage is way down. A good Forest Service employee would know that too.

Then I listen to this assessment of the burn acres, I have, the ringing in my ears the argument's the wild game bureaucracies use to report the current declines in mule deer.

Same principles of deception is used. One generation to the next these agencies perfect these propaganda techniques. So good in fact……….. they believe it themselves. And are willing to inflict terrible things on you, if you don’t.

Then I hear the arguments that bucks don’t have fawns, predators don’t kill mule deer, mule deer populations where never that large, high ratios of buck vs does are harmful to mule deer, etc. etc I want to scream. In fact…….I do, in case you haven’t noticed 😁😁😁
 
That's Alot Of DRATS!

Here is the reason for the decline in mule deer in UT. If we can solve the rise of these predators maybe one day the mule deer herds will come back:

View attachment 129404

How many deer do tards eat?
How many deer do tard's hit with their MAV's?
How much lower is the carrying capacity due to habitat loss?
Poaching?
The list goes on.
 
Then I listen to this assessment of the burn acres, I have, the ringing in my ears the argument's the wild game bureaucracies use to report the current declines in mule deer.

Same principles of deception is used. One generation to the next these agencies perfect these propaganda techniques. So good in fact……….. they believe it themselves. And are willing to inflict terrible things on you, if you don’t.

Then I hear the arguments that bucks don’t have fawns, predators don’t kill mule deer, mule deer populations where never that large, high ratios of buck vs does are harmful to mule deer, etc. etc I want to scream. In fact…….I do, in case you haven’t noticed 😁😁😁
You have every right to scream, 2lumpy and I hear you.
 
Here is the reason for the decline in mule deer in UT. If we can solve the rise of these predators maybe one day the mule deer herds will come back:

View attachment 129404

How many deer do tards eat?
How many deer do tard's hit with their MAV's?
How much lower is the carrying capacity due to habitat loss?
Poaching?
The list goes on.
What type of habitat loss are you referring to?
 
Sounds to me like we need to “extinct” all mountain lions, coyotes, and bears ……….. sounds like a start ! Next no more “townies” moving out to the country……. most don’t belong anyway ! Throw all convicted poachers in the pen for a mandatory 10 yrs first offense ! And also I’d like to see a “bounty” put on all these grown men I see everywhere I go killing fork horns !!! (Children under 17 excluded of course) I don’t much but I sure know I’m not as old as a bunch of you on here and I can sure say the mule deer hunting is in the dumpster compared to when I started ! I can’t imagine how it looks in your eyes !!!! It’s terrible !!!!
 
Here is some interesting information on wildfires in Colorado:


Colorado's Fire History Facts​


20 of 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 20 years (since 2001)

16 of the top 20 largest wildfires wildfires have occurred in the last 13 years (since 2008)


15 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 9 years (since 2012)


11 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 5 years (since 2016)


9 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 3 years (2018 and 2020)


4 of top 5 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 3 years (2018 and 2020)

Colorado's Largest Fires by Acreage​


RankFireAcresYear
1Cameron Peak208,9132020
2East Troublesome193,8122020
3Pine Gulch139,0072020
4Hayman137,7602002
5Spring Creek108,0452018
6High Park87,2842012
7Missionary Ridge70,2852002
8West Fork58,5702013
941654,1292018
10Papoose49,6282013
11Bridger25,8002008
12Last Chance45,0002012
13Bear Springs44,6622011
14MM 11742,7952018
15Beaver Creek28,3802016
16Bull Draw36,5492018
17Badger Hole*33,4212018
18Grizzly Creek32,6312020
19Logan32,5462020
20Burn Canyon31,3002002
*Note: Fires that burned in multiple states
 
Sounds to me like we need to “extinct” all mountain lions, coyotes, and bears ……….. sounds like a start ! Next no more “townies” moving out to the country……. most don’t belong anyway ! Throw all convicted poachers in the pen for a mandatory 10 yrs first offense ! And also I’d like to see a “bounty” put on all these grown men I see everywhere I go killing fork horns !!! (Children under 17 excluded of course) I don’t much but I sure know I’m not as old as a bunch of you on here and I can sure say the mule deer hunting is in the dumpster compared to when I started ! I can’t imagine how it looks in your eyes !!!! It’s terrible !!!!
Grown men shooting 2 points, right there is a big problem, I always like the statement when they say they need to fill the freezer....lol...the 20Lbs of meat you got off that 2 point cost you about $50 per lb....but bucks dont birth fawns...lol...Im with lumpy on the this the strategy of bucks not birthing fawns is one that needs to go away, that was one of the implementations in the early 90's and it hasn't helped.
 
Grown men shooting 2 points, right there is a big problem, I always like the statement when they say they need to fill the freezer....lol...the 20Lbs of meat you got off that 2 point cost you about $50 per lb....but bucks dont birth fawns...lol...Im with lumpy on the this the strategy of bucks not birthing fawns is one that needs to go away, that was one of the implementations in the early 90's and it hasn't helped.
So killing big/old bucks is the answer? Got to love it.
 
Hey cant!

Like I've Said Many Times!

Them Freezers Must Be PISSCUTTERS!


Grown men shooting 2 points, right there is a big problem, I always like the statement when they say they need to fill the freezer....lol...the 20Lbs of meat you got off that 2 point cost you about $50 per lb....but bucks dont birth fawns...lol...Im with lumpy on the this the strategy of bucks not birthing fawns is one that needs to go away, that was one of the implementations in the early 90's and it hasn't helped.
 
[QUOutter TE="cantkillathing, post: 2235342, member: 3303"]
Letting a deer mature wont hurt anything, atleast let it wipe the milk off its lips.
[/QUOTE]
Good hell, not another member of the Bessie pisscutter fan club!
 
Im just wanting someone to tell us one more time that bucks dont birth fawns.....just bored on a Friday night....I want it to be a billionth and one, trying to get it to 2 as soon as possible.
 
Between me and my kids we had 4 tags....we could have shot several yearlings but chose not to, I want them to give birth to some fawns...0 utah deer for us.
 
Here is some interesting information on wildfires in Colorado:


Colorado's Fire History Facts​


20 of 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 20 years (since 2001)

16 of the top 20 largest wildfires wildfires have occurred in the last 13 years (since 2008)


15 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 9 years (since 2012)


11 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 5 years (since 2016)


9 of top 20 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 3 years (2018 and 2020)


4 of top 5 largest wildfires have occurred in the last 3 years (2018 and 2020)

Colorado's Largest Fires by Acreage​


RankFireAcresYear
1Cameron Peak208,9132020
2East Troublesome193,8122020
3Pine Gulch139,0072020
4Hayman137,7602002
5Spring Creek108,0452018
6High Park87,2842012
7Missionary Ridge70,2852002
8West Fork58,5702013
941654,1292018
10Papoose49,6282013
11Bridger25,8002008
12Last Chance45,0002012
13Bear Springs44,6622011
14MM 11742,7952018
15Beaver Creek28,3802016
16Bull Draw36,5492018
17Badger Hole*33,4212018
18Grizzly Creek32,6312020
19Logan32,5462020
20Burn Canyon31,3002002

*Note: Fires that burned in multiple states
I’m going to push back on you fire guys. My perspective is my local environment in SW Colorado, and our local range/forest management practices over the last 40 years.

Can any of you establish a direct relationship between fires and long-term declines in mule deer populations? Me and everyone else understands that there will be short-term impacts as the feed recovers. And I hate to see wildfires in June knowing the babies are hitting the ground, and I understand the range will be especially vulnerable to invasive species post-fire. But I see this narrative and statistical shell game with wildfire data as a red herring. As pointed out by bess, all fires aren’t the same.

So, we have a lot of fires here (some on that list), and pretty much all of them on the forest are managed as prescribed burns so the rangeland habitat is IMPROVED. The fires around the farms and homes are fought aggressively, and I’m grateful for that. But unless you get around this state, you just can’t understand how many hundreds of thousands of acres of beetle kill there is. Most of it will never burn.

It helps to reflect on what’s happened over the last 40 years, and the results of the multi-use doctrine. For those of you who don’t recall, this doctrine eliminated or severely curtailed some consumptive uses such as logging and grazing on public lands. Ironic, I know. An entire generation is confused about what “multi” means.

So for the next 40 years our laissez-faire forest management approach gave us a big old tinderbox. As much as I hate cows on public lands, they were at least doing the job the 100,000 deer and elk that should have been doing it couldn’t.

All it takes is a few campfires, tourist trains, psycho forest service employees, jewish space lazers, and idiots with their bbq’s in the middle of 1000’s of McMansions before you get “the most devastating fires in history“. Well duh.

But it plays well with the global warming crowd, and I suppose we’ll eventually get around to the argument of that killing the deer anyway.

The good news is that the USFS has seemingly shifted policies back toward a more saws-on management approach . Logging activity has ramped way up, something you wouldn’t notice if you didn’t frequent the area. There weren’t any press releases. But that doesnt mean history isn’t being rewritten by the truth being twisted to advance a narrative.

I remember hunting the clear-cuts here back in the ‘90’s. The number of deer you would see was ORDERS of magnitude greater. Maybe they’re all just hiding in the trees now?

This problem has been solved dozens of times here. But if we need to do it again, I vote for 2 hours with some old timers and adult beverages over another academic grant.
 
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I’m going to push back on you fire guys. My perspective is my local environment in SW Colorado, and our local range/forest management practices over the last 40 years.

Can any of you establish a direct relationship between fires and long-term declines in mule deer populations? Me and everyone else understands that there will be short-term impacts as the feed recovers. And I hate to see wildfires in June knowing the babies are hitting the ground, and I understand the range will be especially vulnerable to invasive species post-fire. But I see this narrative and statistical shell game with wildfire data as a red herring. As pointed out by bess, all fires aren’t the same.

So, we have a lot of fires here (some on that list), and pretty much all of them on the forest are managed as prescribed burns so the rangeland habitat is IMPROVED. The fires around the farms and homes are fought aggressively, and I’m grateful for that. But unless you get around this state, you just can’t understand how many hundreds of thousands of acres of beetle kill there is. Most of it will never burn.

It helps to reflect on what’s happened over the last 40 years, and the results of the multi-use doctrine. For those of you who don’t recall, this doctrine eliminated or severely curtailed some consumptive uses such as logging and grazing on public lands. Ironic, I know. An entire generation is confused about what “multi” means.

So for the next 40 years our laissez-faire forest management approach gave us a big old tinderbox. As much as I hate cows on public lands, they were at least doing the job the 100,000 deer and elk that should have been doing it couldn’t.

All it takes is a few campfires, tourist trains, psycho forest service employees, jewish space lazers, and idiots with their bbq’s in the middle of 1000’s of McMansions before you get “the most devastating fires in history“. Well duh.

But it plays well with the global warming crowd, and I suppose we’ll eventually get around to the argument of that killing the deer anyway.

The good news is that the USFS has seemingly shifted policies back toward a more saws-on management approach . Logging activity has ramped way up, something you wouldn’t notice if you didn’t frequent the area. There weren’t any press releases. But that doesnt mean history isn’t being rewritten by the truth being twisted to advance a narrative.

I remember hunting the clear-cuts here back in the ‘90’s. The number of deer you would see was ORDERS of magnitude greater. Maybe they’re all just hiding in the trees now?

This problem has been solved dozens of times here. But if we need to do it again, I vote for 2 hours with some old timers and adult beverages over another academic grant.
Excellent post, Blue.
 
I’m going to push back on you fire guys. My perspective is my local environment in SW Colorado, and our local range/forest management practices over the last 40 years.

Can any of you establish a direct relationship between fires and long-term declines in mule deer populations? Me and everyone else understands that there will be short-term impacts as the feed recovers. And I hate to see wildfires in June knowing the babies are hitting the ground, and I understand the range will be especially vulnerable to invasive species post-fire. But I see this narrative and statistical shell game with wildfire data as a red herring. As pointed out by bess, all fires aren’t the same.

So, we have a lot of fires here (some on that list), and pretty much all of them on the forest are managed as prescribed burns so the rangeland habitat is IMPROVED. The fires around the farms and homes are fought aggressively, and I’m grateful for that. But unless you get around this state, you just can’t understand how many hundreds of thousands of acres of beetle kill there is. Most of it will never burn.

It helps to reflect on what’s happened over the last 40 years, and the results of the multi-use doctrine. For those of you who don’t recall, this doctrine eliminated or severely curtailed some consumptive uses such as logging and grazing on public lands. Ironic, I know. An entire generation is confused about what “multi” means.

So for the next 40 years our laissez-faire forest management approach gave us a big old tinderbox. As much as I hate cows on public lands, they were at least doing the job the 100,000 deer and elk that should have been doing it couldn’t.

All it takes is a few campfires, tourist trains, psycho forest service employees, jewish space lazers, and idiots with their bbq’s in the middle of 1000’s of McMansions before you get “the most devastating fires in history“. Well duh.

But it plays well with the global warming crowd, and I suppose we’ll eventually get around to the argument of that killing the deer anyway.

The good news is that the USFS has seemingly shifted policies back toward a more saws-on management approach . Logging activity has ramped way up, something you wouldn’t notice if you didn’t frequent the area. There weren’t any press releases. But that doesnt mean history isn’t being rewritten by the truth being twisted to advance a narrative.

I remember hunting the clear-cuts here back in the ‘90’s. The number of deer you would see was ORDERS of magnitude greater. Maybe they’re all just hiding in the trees now?

This problem has been solved dozens of times here. But if we need to do it again, I vote for 2 hours with some old timers and adult beverages over another academic grant.
We know we have changed ecosystems throughout the US through a century of fire suppression. Are the prescribed burns and even wildfires a step in the right direction. Some times ,sadly, yes. The pendulum swings hard like that sometimes. But it's going to take decades of random fires, repeated controlled burns, and even some wildfires to reset this and get the plant diversity and edges that mule deer need again.

It's a complicated and gigantic undertaking.

Here's the part many of yall are misunderstanding about my original post. Some people are making the assumption that I believe fires will make the deer all come back. I didn't say that. What I am saying is the only way to get the population crash to actually level out is to restore the relationship fire had with the ecosystems which the deer live in.

Plus start dealing with invasive species, and predators, and CWD, highway mortality, and over harvest, etc....
 
One and two year old bucks do a good job of inseminating the does. Especially when the magic number of 9 to 100 does is achieved

Fire is needed to open the cones to spread the seeds of the forest. To hot of fires inhibit this and sterilize the forest floor
 
One and two year old bucks do a good job of inseminating the does. Especially when the magic number of 9 to 100 does is achieved
I disagree They aren't cattle. They don't behave like cattle, breed like cattle, age like cattle, compete like cattle, select like cattle. Its not the same.
 
How Bout:

I Got Me Some Venison Veal!

I Can't Argue!

It Probably Tastes Damn Good!
Nothing wrong with someone wanting some venison. The last buck I shot was 2 point (20" 2 point), I shot him because I wanted some venison, and I enjoyed every last bite.
If you are hunting for the antlers elkassassin then that is a problem we can not fix.
 
I disagree They aren't cattle. They don't behave like cattle, breed like cattle, age like cattle, compete like cattle, select like cattle. Its not the same.
I was being slightly facetious With the statement and throwing shade in the direction that leaving the forkies is good for the overall health of the herd and shooting the prime breeding age class is totally fine
 
In my own little world, all I know about how fire works is if you want to find the blacktail deer look for a 3-10 year old burn. The bigger the better. I don't know the formula for mule deer.
 
In my own little world, all I know about how fire works is if you want to find the blacktail deer look for a 3-10 year old burn. The bigger the better. I don't know the formula for mule deer.
Shhhhh…..goobers be burnin the whole place down.

Elkasssassin, you need to add bot flys to your list. It can replace ml scopes. You and I both know the list can never get shorter.

I guarandamntee you that bot flys have killed more deer than cheatgrass.
 
Shhhhh…..goobers be burnin the whole place down.

Elkasssassin, you need to add bot flys to your list. It can replace ml scopes. You and I both know the list can never get shorter.

I guarandamntee you that bot flys have killed more deer than cheatgrass.
Just like orange man hurt this country more than Biden?
 
Just like orange man hurt this country more than Biden?
Saving mule deers should be a bipartisan effort. Unfortunately you only need to look at whats happening here with wolves to see that it really is political.

It’s more about ideology. Wolves are the Greta of the moment here.
 
In my own little world, all I know about how fire works is if you want to find the blacktail deer look for a 3-10 year old burn. The bigger the better. I don't know the formula for mule deer.
Yep, mule deer, (probably other species too) love fresh young feed. Natural…. I suppose, because it’s aways highest in protein when it’s young and fresh.

We’ve had some lightning started wild fires here, between Richfield and Fish Lake, in our sage and piñon/juniper areas. The first few years the deer and elk congregated on the new growth, spring, summer and fall……… as the plants have matured, from a purely empirical observation…….. fewer and fewer deer and elk can be found there.

Coincidentally……. possibly, but I’m not inclined to think so.
 
For what it may be worth……. It’s been said, Native Americans used to burn the prairie grass every spring to draw wildlife to the fresh growth ever year. If true…… they had I pretty well figured out, in as much they actually did need the meat.
 
Saving mule deers should be a bipartisan effort. Unfortunately you only need to look at whats happening here with wolves to see that it really is political.

It’s more about ideology. Wolves are the Greta of the moment here.
My comment has nothing to do with politics, but everything to do with perspective.
 
Yep, mule deer, (probably other species too) love fresh young feed. Natural…. I suppose, because it’s aways highest in protein when it’s young and fresh.

We’ve had some lightning started wild fires here, between Richfield and Fish Lake, in our sage and piñon/juniper areas. The first few years the deer and elk congregated on the new growth, spring, summer and fall……… as the plants have matured, from a purely empirical observation…….. fewer and fewer deer and elk can be found there.

Coincidentally……. possibly, but I’m not inclined to think so.

If the deer and elk are not feeding on that matured growth then what are they feeding on?
 
If the deer and elk are not feeding on that matured growth then what are they feeding on?
Great question. Truthfully. Because, the numbers of deer and elk that were using those burned areas where in the last ten years, so those deer are not the thousand of deer we lost in the 80, 90 and early 2,000s. They are the remnants of those large populations. I like how Bluehair described it in a post today. (“ I remember hunting the clear-cuts here back in the ‘90’s. The number of deer you would see was ORDERS of magnitude greater.”)

I do believe the current population is still somewhere on the Monroe or have moved over on the Fish Lake, maybe both.

USFS are currently engaged an aggressive aspen restoration project. Want to replace 90,000 acres of old growth aspen and pine (junk pine, spruce, and beetle killed) forest. They start fires pretty much every spring, and early/late fall, so I suspect they are moving to fresher, younger pastures, as the other becomes less desirable. But that’s just a guess….I no longer spend my spare time looking for them, like I did before the populations become so small. I like bluehair’s recent term for the decline.

It’s not very rewarding to spend day after day looking for things that are no longer there……. in any significant numbers……… does that make sense?
 
I doubt they’ll be extinct in anyones current alive lifetime but……… I believe there will be very very few on public land in a few years. If mule deer do survive, it will be because private land owners will protect them or the entire civilization collapses and people turn their entire attention away from sport hunting.

Hope my vision is way wrong…..
Lumpy,, there are many here who respect your vision. Takes some guts to mention sports hunting as one of the big problems.
 
If the deer and elk are not feeding on that matured growth then what are they feeding on?
That got me to thinking. They do a lot of traveling munching here and there. They will move into the acorns when they start dropping. When they've been in the acorns they get a nice layer of white fat. Blacktails will head for the dark old growth forest after the first good rain in the Fall and feed on mushrooms as they pop out. That's a trade secret though so keep that to yourself. Blacktails also love the lichens that grows on mature trees too. When I worked in the woods the deer would run over to any tree the fallers cut down and eat the lichen that they couldn't reach before. You almost couldn't even run them off.

Deer are survivors if you just give them a little protection from predators and a little solitude.
 
Lumpy,, there are many here who respect your vision. Takes some guts to mention sports hunting as one of the big problems.
Thank you CS. In spite of how my stated observations and opinions are received and interpreted by folks, there are people who have as much passion as I do for mule deer and sport hunting but I’ve yet to meet anyone with more passion than I have.

Because……… I believe mule deer populations and large surplus populations that are grown for sport hunting are the lynch pin for all western big game hunting. I believe allowing mule deer numbers to decline to where they currently are has put the entire western hunting life style in jeopardy.

Secondly, I’m essentially a people person. I like people, I see the good and the great things they’ve accomplished and I expect them to accomplish in the future, however then it comes to somethings, and healthy surplus populations of mule deer one of them, I will push back if I believe people are moving in the wrong direction, and that certainly does frustrate and irritate some folks. I don’t enjoy being disliked but it doesn’t stop me from speaking my mind when I disagree. If that makes them think poorly of me…….. I’m not overly bothered by what they think or say. If it gets nasty however, I will respond in kind.

Maybe I should be more sensitive toward other people with other points of view but I’ve lived in this skin for 76 years and I’m not likely to change at this stage in life.

Again, thank you for your kind words. All the best with your passions too CS.
 

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