Auction Tags?Friend or Foe?

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Long Time Member
Messages
3,012
Robiland sent me the link to an Eastman's E-news article regarding auction tags: http://www.eastmans.com/guy/2012/07...s_E_news_April_20127_10_2012&utm_medium=email

I am looking forward to reading Guy Eastman's article. This is a huge problem in Utah and I am afraid the "Utah model" is spreading to surrounding states.

_____________________________________

Preview: Auction Tags?Friend or Foe?
Jul 09 2012

In my mind auction tags have always been a potential liability to our sport. As of lately many others in the industry seem to have taken to my viewpoint on the subject. We here at Eastmans? have been against these tags since their inception and our stance has never waivered. It looks like the general public is finally noticing that these ?elite licenses? and their huge price tags may be more of a liability to the sport of hunting than they're an asset to conservation. After all, that's where the vast portion of that money is supposed to be going to, right? It's quite possible that these huge sums of money end up creating more corruption, kickbacks, abuse and waste than they do habitat and conservation.

The ultimate question boils down to this- ?Are these high dollar licenses worth the cost of the potential waste, fraud and abuse?? Everyone seems to be on the dole with these tags except the average hunter, like yourself, who actually owns the wildlife and public lands that make these tags even possible.

I will lay out my case to end these tags once and for all in a future edition of E-news. Stay tuned for the article, ?10 Reasons Why Auction Tags Are Ruining Your Hunting Experience.?

Good luck this fall.

-Guy Eastman



Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I am also curious as to what may be printed in his future article. Obviously it will be well thought out, anouncing a future article, giving him plenty of time to articulate his beliefs.

I take it you still have not heard from Miles?
 
Miles probably didn't get that email, just like he says he didn't get any that Randy sent him, LOL!
 
Ya I got that same e-newsletter from Eastman's and almost posted it this morning. Just decided not to since it was just a preview, but this is good to see. I often wonder how these publishers deal with these issues considering so many of their sponsors are outfitters and indirectly benefit from these auction tags.

I also remember when SFW was a player in MM and wonder how that played out. Fraid to ask.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Thats funny coming from Guy Eastman...in particular since the hypocrit buys landowners tags, which IMO, are as bad, if not worse, than a few auction tags.

Take a good look at the landowner tags issued in New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada and see the level of corruption and fraud that come from those.

Guy Eastman needs to take a good look in the mirror, he's a big part of the problem of commercialization and the trouncing of the North American Model as anyone.

Nothing worse than a hypocrit...
 
I imagine Gordon has turned over in his grave a few times the way Eastmans have become with his third generation and the tags they hunt on quite a bit. I know they still do hunt on draw tags, but there sure seems to be a lot of their episodes that are obviously on private land with people (outfitters) helping them the last few years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-12 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]They might be fair chase...but they sure as hell are not 100% public land.

Theres no debating they buy landowner tags either.

Nice try though.
 
Could be that attitudes are changing and this could be the start of something big. The average Joe just might get behind the elimination of auction tags. Who knows, maybe landowner tags and outfitter tags/draws/preference might be next? I have no qualms with outfitters conducting their business with clients that draw just like everyone else, but should they be subsidized in any way? Landowner tags and the associated outfitter contracts have become big business. What started as a way to promote habitat improvement, public access and landowner compensation has been corrupted by greed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-12 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]I agree. I enjoy the Eastman Journal. However, many if not most of their hunts are on private land and land owners tags. Then they think they are experts on hunting.
Conservation permits at least helps wildlife. Land owner tags help land owners and the rich. Outfitter allocated tags,ie. in NV and NM help outfitters and the rich. Needing an outfitter to hunt wilderness in WY helps the outfitter and the rich.

I agree Mike Eastman should look in the mirror. He calls foul on conservation permits, then buys and films hunts from outfitters and land owners to do his films. None of that money helps wildlife or the future of hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-12 AT 01:35PM (MST)[p]>Thats funny coming from Guy Eastman...in
>particular since the hypocrit buys
>landowners tags, which IMO, are
>as bad, if not worse,
>than a few auction tags.
>
>
>Take a good look at the
>landowner tags issued in New
>Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada
>and see the level of
>corruption and fraud that come
>from those.
>
>Guy Eastman needs to take a
>good look in the mirror,
>he's a big part of
>the problem of commercialization and
>the trouncing of the North
>American Model as anyone.
>
>Nothing worse than a hypocrit...

Am I missing something here? I can't make the connection between landowner tags/vouchers (CWMU, Ranching for Wildlife, mitigation) which are issued to landowners as compensation for already managing/feeding wildlife on private property and the auctioning off of public tags on public property. Please enlighten me/us!

And as far as the hiring of guides or outfitters, that's an option given to anyone no matter where they hunt.
 
In Utah, there is a BIG difference between Conservation tags and Expo tags. The State of Utah actually receives monies from Conservation tags(Auction) to benefit wildlife. What surrounding states have to be careful with are the Expo tags. In Utah, the monies generated from the sale of the expo tags is kept by the organization that began this process. As we all know, they have come under fire to show where that money has gone, but like we all suspect, very little is actually helping wildlife. I applaud the RMEF for opening their books to show where their monies have gone. If we continue to pressure organizations, change wil happen. Surrounding states NEED to be aware!
 
>Thats funny coming from Guy Eastman...in
>particular since the hypocrit buys
>landowners tags, which IMO, are
>as bad, if not worse,
>than a few auction tags.
>
>
>Take a good look at the
>landowner tags issued in New
>Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada
>and see the level of
>corruption and fraud that come
>from those.
>
>Guy Eastman needs to take a
>good look in the mirror,
>he's a big part of
>the problem of commercialization and
>the trouncing of the North
>American Model as anyone.
>
>Nothing worse than a hypocrit...

On this we agree,
Zeke
 
elkfromabove,

Yes, you are missing the point, in most cases landowner/outfitter tags are largely no different. Plus, instead of the public having to worry about a handful of auction permits, we're worrying about hundreds, if not thousands of transferable landowner/outfitter permits.

For the record, I have NO problem with landowners receiving NON-TRANSFERABLE permits to be used on their property.

But, I have a major problem with a landowner squeaking in under the basic requirements of receiving landowner permits and obtaining a unit wide permit. I bet less than 10% of landowners that get unit wide permits actually even hunt and/or take an animal on their own land. I also have major heartburn when New Mexico is issuing transferable landowner tags for people who own very small amounts of land. Its also a pretty sad deal when the landowners in Colorado want to increase the number of landowner permits to 20-25% of all available permits. I'm also not doing back-flips that non-residents are not even allowed to apply for RFW/CWMU permits at all. The outfitter sponsored licenses are just as bad as the landowner permits.

What you create with all (landowner/outfitter/auction) permit systems is a process where those with the fattest wallet jump ahead of everyone else. Its commercializaion of the sport, no way around it. Theres as much, if not more corruption coming from the outfitter/landowner permit systems as there is from a few auction tags.

One of the main cornerstones of the North American Model is that all citizens have equal access to the publics wildlife resources. If you even remotely believe in the idea of the North American Model, public lands, and public wildlife...I dont understand how you CANT see where I'm coming from.

Thats why I find Guy Eastman to be a complete tool, and hypocrit. He has no right to complain about the troubles with auction tags when every single thing he finds wrong with them...is also true of landowner/outfitter permits. Its funny to watch Guy stomp his feet, hold his breath, and throw his sucker in the dirt over auction tags...while he's shelling out for landowner tags.

He's doing as much, if not more damage to the North American Model...and thats a fact.
 
Buzz-

I share your concerns relating to landowner permits. I think that most of us are in agreement that the convention permit, conservation permit, landowner permit and CWMU permit programs all started out with good intentions but have grown and evolved into programs that are often troubling to the average sportsmen. I am not saying that they don't do any good--just that each of these programs have created problems, resulted in division among sportsmen and contributed to the commercialization of hunting.

I am curious as to your statement regarding a mere "handful of auction permits" as opposed to the "hundreds of landowner permits." In Utah, the Wildlife Board hands out 300+ conservation permits a year, plus an additional 200 convention permits. So we are talking about hundreds of permits. Does anyone know how many landowner and CWMU tags are given out on a yearly basis in the State of Utah? I am primarly interested in landowner permits for limited entry and once-in-a-lifetime species. I would be interesting to compare the numbers.

Thanks for the comments. This is an interesting discussion.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawkeye,

In the case of Utah, you are absolutely 100% spot on...you are dealing with hundreds of auction/convention tags there. I'm completely aware of that problem.

I was thinking in terms of total landowner/outfitter VS. total auction tags in all states.

In states like WY, MT, NV, CO and NM, there are very few auction tags compared to landowner/outfitter tags.

Hope that clarifies my statements.
 
I am not so harsh in my opinion of Guy Eastman. Is he complicit? Yes, to that I would agree. But he has to operate in the environment created, not by him, but by others. Wildlife agencies, critter groups, outfitters and landowners have perverted the system. At least he has recognized a major portion of the problem and is using his position of influence to our benefit. We can use all the friends we can find to help perserve our heritage. If Guy can shine a spotlight on the problem, perhaps others can guide the ultimate solution. Nothing will happen unless we can get enough people thinking about this topic as a problem and then formulate a better solution. I have the utmost respect for the Arizona Elk Society. They are allocated tags from the Arizona Game & Fish Department to raise funds for the benefit of wildlife. 100% of all funds are returned to G&F for use in the Habitat Partnership Committee projects. I wouldn't kick dirt on AES for taking tags, but in a purist view, any tag used for fundraising is an improper use of the tag. The mere existance of tags being used for fundraising leaves open the opportunity for another organization or another generation to pervert the system in AZ. I think we can give Guy a pass long enough to accomplish the task at hand. We don't want to disperse our angry mob by shooting at one another before we lynch the bad guys.
 
Sagebrush,

Thats a bunch of crap...he doesnt have to operate under the landowner tag program. He CHOOSES to.

Also, I find it pretty odd that he'd make this claim, "In my mind auction tags have always been a potential liability to our sport. As of lately many others in the industry seem to have taken to my viewpoint on the subject."

Really?

He's had no less than 10 years to voice his displeasure over the auction tags, yet, until this latest "Guy Eastman exclusive"...he and the rest of the Eastman crew havent said a word about them. If he's always felt auction tags were such a liability, why hasnt he lead the charge to question them?

Only after the people/groups that have really been doing the heavy lifting in regard to the SFW/auction tag scandal has Guy "taken a viewpoint"

I'm more than pretty sure who the people/groups are on the tip of the auction tag spear, exposing this crap. Guy is riding coat tails acting like he's actually done something...didnt see him wanting to debate Don Peay. Didnt see him writing Kaprowitz on company letter head. Nothing...zip, nadda.

He's a joke...hanging back in the shadows waiting for the work to be done before he comes out taking credit for the work of others. Now he trumpets on like he's really showing us something. The only thing he's "showing" anyone is that he isnt afraid to strap on his velcro pants and the show the world his a$$...

Reminds me of how SFW/BGF operates.
 
From Hawkeye
I think that most of us are in agreement that the convention permit, conservation permit, landowner permit and CWMU permit programs all started out with good intentions but have grown and evolved into programs that are often troubling to the average sportsmen.

I agree with hawkeye that the tags started out doing good and just got to big. Also don't forget about all the dedicated hunter tags they give out to guys that turn a tag back in. I know a few that were hunting San Juan any weapon bulls and West desert Bulls with the dedicated hunter draw. I am not saying I am for or against any of the tags but I think they give out to many.
 
All of these things become a snowball. We have Super Hunt tags here in Idaho, 8 each for Deer/Elk/Antelope and 2 for Moose, plus one more good for all 4. A few Sheep tags. Now they want to start to add more. Why? Because they need to keep up with Utah, Nev, etc. I really think most of our F&G are against it, but when everyone complains they don't do enough, they have to compete and need the $$ to do that. It's all a slippery slope.

When you have a half dozen of these tags I imagine the value of each is easily 6 figures, but with a few hundred, then how much can one auction for? Where is financial balance, let alone the ethical one.
 
The Eastman's have always been against auction/governor tags and have been very vocal about it. Just pick up an issue of their mag and read it.

Why do you think they only show at the ISE show? All the other shows have auction/governor type tags. They have been doing that for more than 10 years.

I think this is a great time for Guy to speak up. We need all the help we can get from high profile individuals in the hunting industry like Guy and Randy (Bigfin).

I agree with the others, this has gotten out of hand and needs to be slowed down or stopped. I say one tag per species to be sold and one tag each to the sportsman's draw. That's enough!!!!!

I ask again, why can these other states produce abundant big game with little to no auction/governor/convention tags and Utah struggles to rebuild habitat and herds with millions from these tags????
 
"All the other shows have auction/governor type tags."

That is not true! Also, what was stated was the striking similarity between them buying high priced LO tags that most DIYers can't afford and the high prices that auction tags go for. They have always preached about doing general tag hunts that anyone can do and they have gotten almost entirely away from that and are hunting where they can pay for a good hunt on private lands or draw a LE unit. When I read that piece by Guy a couple days ago when the magazine came, my first thought was that he was doing something similar to SFW/BGF taking credit for getting the ball rolling and winning the wolf battle.
 
Hi, my name is Rich and I buy landowner tags in Colorado every year. I must be against everything good in the world. IMHO, to say that the facade that is occurring in Utah that is making a few people rich and the landowner tag debate in Colorado is not even close.

You know what the landowner is getting for his tags in Colorado, how much is SFW getting for their tags at the convention or through their banquets. Anyone know?

Rich
 
This will read kinda strange coming from me....

I think the auction/gov type tags are a real benefit for wildlife and habitat.

I do think they should be very limited in the amount available though.

In my home state I really feel with all the Con. org tags and the convention tags there has been major abuse of the number of tags.

I could feel more comfortable and trusting if we kept the gov. tags & the equal Sportsman tags for those species.

For the Con. Org tags I feel they should be cut to 1 tag per species per unit and have those be Premium tags to hunt all 4 seasons and then have an on-line type 'draw' for the same 1 per unit Premium tag for the general public to apply for.....Ressy AND non-ressy could apply for damn sure.

So from way to many Con. Org tags it would be down to just 2 tags per unit/species and generate allot more money for wildlife and habitat.

We get nothing in return for the Convention 200 tags---get rid of them.

The only problem I have with the Landowner tags is that they are given so that a guy can hunt his own unit but they are being sold.....

I think if they want to sell them, fine, but if they get sold it should be Ranch Only.....if they do not sell them, they should be unit wide just like they are ment to be from the beginning....no matter the state.

Robb
 
"what's wrong with buying a landowner tag?"

I try to stay out of these threads but there is nothing at all is wrong with it (IMO).


Basically, it boils down to the John Does who believe they have an enumerated right (an entitlement) to all of the wildlife simply because they are resident tax payers (who may or may not even be paying tax). They do not own property and believe it is "unfair" that, (i) they can't trespass at will on other's land to access the wildlife, ii) it is unfair for the landowner to be granted tags by the state for which they can use themselves or transfer to others, or (iii) the grantee's may be able to hunt ajoining public land with such LO tag.

I am against the convention/Expo/and even conservation tags. But not the LO tags, this is the U.S.A. We are lucky to be a capitalistic based government with the right to own private property.
 
They do not own property and believe it is "unfair" that, (i) they can't trespass at will on other's land to access the wildlife, ii) it is unfair for the landowner to be granted tags by the state for which they can use themselves or transfer to others, or (iii) the grantee's may be able to hunt ajoining public land with such LO tag.

This has to take the cake as the most lame post on this thread.

I, and most hunters I know, have no desire to trespass to hunt, and in fact, fully support prosecuting anyone that does. Private property rights are, and should be, held in high regard.

I'm not against landowner tags if they are specific to the title holder (or immediate family member) of the deeded ground AND used on deeded ground only. Landowner permits should be non-transferable and definitely not be valid on public lands.

Landowners have no more right to the wildlife held in trust by the States than any other citizen...and thats per the law.

The true entitlement attitude comes from landowners who falsely believe they actually OWN a public resource (wildlife). The only thing they own is the land, period.

Landowner tags have become a joke, and a majority of hunters are fed up with the fleecing of the states wildlife resources via LO tags.

There is no need for a transferable LO tag of any kind. Landowners have other ways to seek compensation for MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE using their property (trespass fees, leasing, etc.).

The States Citizens granted authority for LO tags...and the States Citizens also have the authority to limit, further regulate, or even abolish LO tags.

Hunters have been, and are being taken advantage of by all these types of tag give-aways...and the times, they are a changin'. Hunters are tired of being rail-roaded by special interests. This is the beginning of the end for many of these things, count on it.
 
Some sure tend to make life purely black and white, but in most instances it just isn't that easy.

Landowner tags can only be used on the landowner's property. Hmmmm. That sure sounds great, until we really look at different situations.

Landowner A in Western Colorado carries deer on his property 365 days a year. In this situation, such a rule would be feasible.

Landowner B owns range land at the base of the public mountain in Wyoming. He carries few, if any, deer or elk on his place during the Sept-Oct hunting seasons, but come Nov-March he is wintering herds. "Hunt own Property" idea doesn't work here.

Landowner C's ranch is where elk calve and nursery from March-July. But he has no elk on his place during the set hunting seasons.

Then we look at State laws which allow a private land owner to kill State owned nuisance animals. Is it better to give a ranch 1 LO permit rather than have him kill numerous animals? We just went through this in Utah-- the end result was mature bulls killed, deer killed and hunting permits reduced. Would 1 permit have saved 20+ animals and thousands of dollars of public funds?

Antelope were saved by private land holders. Elk and deer have thrived on the limited access private lands. It should be a partnership. Private land owners sharing their property with the State's animals and the State giving back some opportunity to the landowner.

Are there abuses? Yep. Has it created a "commercialization"? Yep. Should landowners never receive anything for sustaining the very State owned herds we all want to enjoy? Nope.

Life isn't always so black and white. I always fear those who work to destroy, rather than to improve situations.
 
Packout,

I tend to agree with you that there are situations that could require some sort of landowner compensation...but it doesnt have to be in the form of transferable landowner tags. Also, a partnership is a give and take...not, lets take all we can with both hands.

The trouble is that these LO tags have gotten wayyy out of control in a lot of states.

In Colorado, there is a current proposal to increase the number of landowner tags to 20-25% of all available permits.

In New Mexico, there is now "landowners" with ONE acre of land receiving landowner tags:

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/recreation/hunting/documents/E-PLUSSCRList_6-6.pdf

In states like MT landowners are given preference in trophy units and draw multiple tags in units with less than 1% draw odds.

Wyoming is the same...in some of the trophy units, landowners are assured tags every year in units where the average hunter will be lucky to draw in a lifetime.

There is no question that landowners do good things for wildlife, that they do incur depredation, etc. But, its also true that they have many options, in most cases, to be compensated for those situations.

The true constant is that the average hunter has paid ALL the bills for everything from management, to damage claims, to enforcement, etc.

The abuse and commercialization have got to stop or the very people that have done nearly all the heavy lifting (average sportsmen) in regard to wildlife are not even going to have whats left of the crumbs.

There is NO group that has more flesh in the game than the DIY, average Joe...we've largely done it all. Way before there was a landowner tag, an auction tag, or an outfitter tag...the average guys have been shelling out for decades.

The Johnie-come-latelys are flat taking advantage, no question.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-12 AT 11:56AM (MST)[p]I know one thing, tag selling abuse is rampant and needs to be stopped. I think wildlife agencies need to be in control of what goes on with critter groups, and I include SFW/BGF/MDF in that group with my apologies to the others. Landowner tag abuse isn't much better. Guys buy small parcels to get unit wide tags to sell for maximum profit. Outfitters contract with landowners again for maximum profit. The more it happens, the farther away from the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation we get and the closer we come to the European model of the privatization of wildlife. Anytime tags are allowed to be sold, the opportunity for perversion exists. I would rather err on the conservative side than have to battle the situation we have today. There can be other ways to compensate legitimate landowners. If a landowner wants to charge a trespass fee or contract with an outfitter for exclusive rights to access, I believe he should be allowed to charge whatever he can get. There should not be a tag allocation involved in the process. If a landowner is suffering a undue loss due to wildlife moving into his property, the state has an obligation to compensate him or establish mitigation. A landowner with a livestock or farming operation has to know there is going to be some loss due to wildlife and that's just part of the cost of doing business. If he has some mule deer grazing on his property that don't cause a big problem, then suddenly he has an elk herd wintering there that didn't exist until then state increased their numbers, that landowner needs to be helped. A guy that owns 160 acres of unimproved cheat grass in unit 2B in NM doesn't need two unit wide mule deer tags to be compensated for wildlife damage to his property.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-12 AT 12:47PM (MST)[p]>I am not so harsh in
>my opinion of Guy Eastman.
>Is he complicit? Yes, to
>that I would agree. But
>he has to operate in
>the environment created, not by
>him, but by others. Wildlife
>agencies, critter groups, outfitters and
>landowners have perverted the system.
>At least he has recognized
>a major portion of the
>problem and is using his
>position of influence to our
>benefit. We can use all
>the friends we can find
>to help perserve our heritage.
>If Guy can shine a
>spotlight on the problem, perhaps
>others can guide the ultimate
>solution. Nothing will happen unless
>we can get enough people
>thinking about this topic as
>a problem and then formulate
>a better solution. I have
>the utmost respect for the
>Arizona Elk Society. They are
>allocated tags from the Arizona
>Game & Fish Department to
>raise funds for the benefit
>of wildlife. 100% of all
>funds are returned to G&F
>for use in the Habitat
>Partnership Committee projects. I wouldn't
>kick dirt on AES for
>taking tags, but in a
>purist view, any tag used
>for fundraising is an improper
>use of the tag. The
>mere existance of tags being
>used for fundraising leaves open
>the opportunity for another organization
>or another generation to pervert
>the system in AZ. I
>think we can give Guy
>a pass long enough to
>accomplish the task at hand.
>We don't want to disperse
>our angry mob by shooting
>at one another before we
>lynch the bad guys.
_________________________________________________

+1

The Eastmans' point of view on "Conservation tags" has NOTHING to do with them buying landowner tags. This DOES NOT make him a hypocrit.

The "Eastman Way" is about hunting "Wild" game and standing in opposition to killing game restricted within "High Fences" with ear tags.

Some private land in the West might as well be public land within the scope of acreage and "free ranging" animals.

Some of this animosity towards the Eastmans needs to be kept to yourself until you further educate yourselves.

I am against "Expo" tags 100%.
3 or less "Conservation/Auction" tags per species per state can be managed properly.

We all know how dang hard it is to draw a tag, right? Well, I for one enjoy having Elk meat in my freezer. There have been times when I have purchased NM Landowner cow elk tags & I hope I can do so in the future when I can't draw a tag.

Seems like too many people are riled up and ready and snap at everyone & everything that passes by...

Relax men, let's put our fight into something that actually matters rather than talking smack just cuz you're having a bad day.

The NM landowner tag system is... well.... RETARDED. The system is definately BROKEN.

Look at Units 4, 55, 9, & 13. They are almost 100% private and these units are covered up with elk. Some type of lanowner tag system must exist because of places like these.

Quit yer bitchin' and either invent your own solution & sell it to the public or find a better solution you can live with and support it.

If all you want to do is complain, take note... NOBODY wants to listen to you! (Except maybe stinkystomper)
 
Sagebrush, I agree 100% with your last post, well done.


1fastgambler said,

"The Eastmans' point of view on "Conservation tags" has NOTHING to do with them buying landowner tags. This DOES NOT make him a hypocrit.

Thats bullchit, it absolutely does have everything to do with the problem of tag give-away programs. No matter how you want to spin it, Guy and people like him are perpetuating the commercialization of wildlife in defiance of the North American Model...period.

The "Eastman Way" is about hunting "Wild" game and standing in opposition to killing game restricted within "High Fences" with ear tags.

The Eastman Way is about leasing, buying landowner tags, and hunting private lands with outfitters, while trying to pass off what they do as public land DIY hunting. I have no problem with Guy, Mike or anyone hunting with outfitters, leasing private, or hunting exclusive private...just dont pass it off for anything other than that.

Some of this animosity towards the Eastmans needs to be kept to yourself until you further educate yourselves.

I've educated myself plenty, and given classic examples of why tag give-aways and the "Eastman way" are a complete joke and eroding the foundation of the North American Model. Further, the people actually putting their necks on the line over these state-sponsored tag scams deserve to be given credit where its due...Guy aint one of them. Unless you've been playing rip-vanwinkle the last 10 years, you'd know who has, and still are, really putting their businesses, organizations, and reputations on the line for the North American Model. Sure, Guy jumped on the band-wagon after others have assumed the risk and done the heavy lifting...its easy to ride coat-tails.

I am against "Expo" tags 100%. 3 or less "Conservation/Auction" tags per species per state can be managed properly.

Glad to see you take a stand on something...congratulations?

We all know how dang hard it is to draw a tag, right? Well, I for one enjoy having Elk meat in my freezer. There have been times when I have purchased NM Landowner cow elk tags & I hope I can do so in the future when I can't draw a tag.

No chit???...maybe if NM, CO, NV, WY, MT, UT, etc. werent giving out thousands and thousands of landowner/outfitter welfare tags you'd draw more often. Ever thought of that?

Seems like too many people are riled up and ready and snap at everyone & everything that passes by...

Not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people starting to get fed up with being robbed from via landowner, convention, and auction tags. The average DIY Public lands hunters are getting involved in changing the corruption that a few groups like SFW/BGF and various landowner/outfitter organizations have rammed down their throats. Time to finish the game.

Relax men, let's put our fight into something that actually matters rather than talking smack just cuz you're having a bad day.

There will be no relaxing, keep dreaming.

Look at Units 4, 55, 9, & 13. They are almost 100% private and these units are covered up with elk. Some type of lanowner tag system must exist because of places like these.

Wrong, I can show you hundreds of thousands of acres in MT, WY, etc. that have very limited landowner tags (and non-transferable) where hunters gain access to elk in units with lots of elk and very little public land.

Quit yer bitchin' and either invent your own solution & sell it to the public or find a better solution you can live with and support it.

Dont worry about that, more of us average joe hunters are become active than ever before and are demanding accountability to the scam like landowner tags, outfitter tags, etc.

If all you want to do is complain, take note... NOBODY wants to listen to you!

The average joe hunters have the absolute right to complain, they are the ones responsible for the wildlife that we currently have. They've paid the freight, they've done the heavy lifting...and its theirs to control if they arent too afraid to just take it back.

I believe we're getting there...
 
I like landowners, meat hunters, trophy hunters, DIY backpacke hunters, guided hunters with an armada, guides, outfitters and fish cops.

There is a mess in many states. What can be done? Needs to be tackled state by state.

I support only 2 tags per big game species being taken from the draw in each state. One tag per species that is acutioned at a public event held in that state. Let Richie Rich thump his chest and buy up a tag to hunt anywhere, anytime for 365 days to kill one animal. The other tag per species is raffled online for $5 per chance. Joe Six Pack can buy one entry and win. Raffle winner gets same deal as the auction winner where can hunt anywhere, anytime for 365 days.

All money raised goes to the state for wildlife programs. The convention that auctions the tag gets $0 and may even be out money for the credit card fee portion of the auction sales but they are able to promote they will be auctioning that primo tag which is a draw to get people to more attend. That is a fair trade.

Do landowners need compensation to be good stewards of wildlife? Some do. Do wildlife cause crop loses? Yep. Damage to fencing? Yep.

Petition your states and ask for a fee to be put on every hunting tag and license that will be used to compensate landowners. Landowners can file for damage claims and if approved be given the option of all cash or a mixture of cash and property-specific tags. Non-transferrable tags are valued at face value of resident fee. Transferrable tags at 10x face value of nonredident fee. If wildlife is present during the season then they might want a few tags and this will help with harvest goals in the unit. If wildlife is not present then they will want all cash.

Part of the filing for the damage claim is to say what, if anything, the landowner will do to try and reduce the damage in the next year in a way that does not imperil the wildlife. Perhaps some fences on certain land tracts.

If I draw a tag in the unit and wildlife are present during the season I might be in the market to pay for access to the private land so that is a reward for being a good steward as a landowner.
 
I agree 100% with outdoors on the 2 auction tags. I used to love seeing what a high 6 figure animal looked like, or that extremely fortunate persons smile after that once in a lifetime hunt! Now it's no big deal.

Now the landowner part, yes they do deserve tags if they want. I live in NM and what I think a lot of you are missing is the fact that these landowners can and do close off there land and block millions of acres of public land. The tags they receive that are unit wide also gives everyone with a tag the right to hunt and access their land, where ranch only tags they don't have to let anyone on. So it's usually a win win for hunters and the landowners.

I do however see the amount of abuse that is coming from these tags, 1 acre? Come on NM! That's just wrong! I also am tired of hearing the landowners cry about how the wildlife is destroying their property and they need more tags, then trying to look like hero's by saying they only use half of them! It's just flat out bs and needs to be fixed!

There's nothing wrong with a little give and take, it's just a lot more taking going on these days.


I just call em as I see em!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-12 AT 09:16PM (MST)[p]Buzz, I admire both your passion and what I perceive to be your intentions.

You must know something about the Eastmans that I don't. I watch their shows and subscribe to both magazines. I even had an article in one a couple years ago. I have not read any of their books. I don't spend any time on their website.

Maybe I'm the one who needs to educate myself about the Eastmans, eh?
That said I still don't think that bashing them is doing anything positive nor is it working towards resolution to the core problem, which is NOT the people who purchase landowner tags, no matter what they say on their t.v. shows.

The core issue, at least in New Mexico, is a few of our legislators who own large tracts of land and create laws that guarantee the landowner is the one holding all the cards regarding game management on private land.

I'm talking about Mr. Timothy Jennings who created what is referred to as the "Jennings Rule". It give landowners the right to shoot and kill all big game animals on their land with zero reprocussions when they are having depredation issues.

If you or anyone else truly gives a dam about the New Mexico Land Owner tag issue, the ONLY thing we should focus our attention on is getting the Jennings Rule appealed. We can't fix the messed up system unitl they're no longer holding all the cards!

You and I, along with tens of thousands of other "regular joe's" share very similar feelings about these topics.

I strongly feel we need to "FOCUS" our fight on the critical issues.

I disagree with you the The Eastmans are anywhere near a "Critical issue"! Hipocrits? Maybe. The root cause of the problem? Heck no!

That's the point I was trying to make in my prior post.

I think you are looking way too far into the future regarding NM landowner tags in your comparison to other states. You can't put the entire forest fire out all at once!

See where I'm coming from now?

You're starting a fight with the Eastmans that really doesn't have an impact on solving the issue at hand.

That's the way I see it... But what do I know? I'm just a New Mexico redneck. haha!

Cheers!
 
Outdoors.... +1

Hornhunter... + 0.7

Here's the deal...

NM landowner tag system is broken.

I agree that One positive part of the current system is ranches getting UW tags gives all public hunters the right to trespass and hunt such ranches without permission on those ranches.

The current issues with this is the fact that a select few jackwagon landowners/outfitters get these UW tags and then post NO TRESPASSING sings everywhere and keep all gates locked up tighter than fort knox. Even worse is when they put two banditos with guns in a truck to block a road going thru a UW ranch and threaten to shoot you for trespassing because they have a high priority client who's on a big bull a mile up the road.

Also, the rules clearly state that the LO is required to provide an accurate map of their property boundaries. This hasn't happened.

We MUST... repeat.... WE MUST... find a way to get rid of the Jennings Rule NOW!!!!!

Landowners & Outfitters have been making way too much money for way too long to jump in and take away their livlihoods.

If you do that BEFORE repealing the Jennings rule, guess what will happen?!?!?!?!!!

They'll "Legally" shoot and kill every Antelope, Elk, Deer, Bear, Turkey, Bighorn, Barbary, Etc. that steps foot on their property!!!

Once that's done we can work on revamping the current system so that it makes sense and can no longer be abused.
 
Several meetings going on in the next few days to decide where funding wil come from to re seed burned out areas. I bet the Eastmans will be on the front row offering their full financial support!
 

Similar threads

M
Nevada Elk Incentive or Damage Crop Tags?
Replies
12
Views
911
wstrntines
wstrntines
M
Changes in Regulation
Replies
4
Views
828
ICMDEER
ICMDEER
J
Colorado CPW Commissioner Debate!
Replies
36
Views
2k
jims
J

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

ABD086C5-4D34-41F7-AAEA-12E28C546772.jpeg
39512F6D-4A98-4D63-9C5B-3C8A7B89AD21.jpeg
20200212_185059.jpg
A15AA3E6-681A-45F6-B16F-D25BB70C245D.jpeg
D074DD50-5BDE-439A-AD01-6CC69998F7AD.jpeg
0CA084A2-6531-4BE0-AAEC-4283E1DF21A4.jpeg
IMG_20210929_145737_383.jpg
IMG_4917.jpeg
IMG_0676 (2)a.jpg
9F07BB9E-9445-4CF5-B656-E226D54BC2B6.jpeg
8A8A6165-2BCF-48FC-80C9-F5301E286BE5.jpeg
NE Muley.JPG
Back
Top Bottom