AZ Draw Changes- % Youth Hunts

R

redrabbit

Guest
Pig-tailing on my post in the % pass thread is the concern about draw and success for youth hunters.

I one looks at the draw odds for youth antlerless elk, the draw odds range from 16%-36%. In other words, a kid is going to wait 3-6 years before he or she can draw a permit. As you also knoe, if a kid is not hooked on hunting by age 14-16, you have likely lost him to other activities. So goes out future hunters.

Currently G&F sets aside up to 3% of the permits for youth permits (used to be 2%) How about we shift the general elk and deer permits to the youth hunts and raise this percent to 10 % and throw in some bull tags. Lots of kids are attracted to horns also. And if the kid goes hunting, so does Dad to help on the scouting and actual hunt. And I would wager a Mom & Dad would have more thrill through their child's success than their own tag being filled.

Currently AZGFD is accepting input regarding the Hunt Guidelines.
http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMedia/Public-input-requested-for-revising-hunt-guidelines.shtml

Doug~RR
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-09 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]I think we should limit every junior to 1 successful tag for a species then they have to go into the big draw. That way more kids will have a chance of drawing a tag during the critical period. I don't think we need to introduce them to bull tags since there is so little of that opportunity to go around. We literally have thousands of adults that have never had a bull tag. If their dad draws a tag and wants to sign it over to them I think that's a good way for them to get a bull tag or draw for their own in the main draw. I also feel we need to let them understand that hunting is a method used to control animals and it's not just about the horns. There's way too much focus on that at the adult level. You can go have a quality hunt with a child and it doesn't have to include passing up opportunites or putting pressure on them about the size of the rack. It also makes them focus on the hunt itself for the right reasons and we do have junior deer hunts that are for bucks.

I wouldn't be opposed to them increasing the tags to 5%.
 
If I added my numbers right, there were 1335 youth cow tags in 2008 out of 26,098 total elk tags, or about 5% of the total. I am still thinking that the percentage can be increased to 10% and get the kids hunting sooner or twice as often, even if it be for cows.

As it is now, the draw odds for youth cow are not much better, and often times worse than the general rifle cow hunts. Requiring the youth to put in for general after drawing a youth tag does not get him or her hunting more than once for elk from age 10-17. Once they draw as a youth, then they are back to one BP for hunter ed, and that does not give them any advantage in the draw IMO, more tags need to be offered for youth so they get to hunt a few times as kids, hopefully at least once each year for any species (deer, elk, turkey, javelina).

I do see your point, Boskee, where once drawn, they need to give the first-timer, never been drawn kid a chance. But how can we keep the once-drawn in the system with better-than-general-odds and still not limit the new 10 year old hunter?

What about youth archery tags? I see none now. Greater oppportunity for more youth tags at a sport you and I both enjoy. Good way to get them hooked on archery.

Doug~RR
 
RED RABBIT, how can we possibly create more opportunity by giving those that just had it more when the other guy still hasn't had any? It's impossible as you know! In order for us to improve the odds of the kids, we have to limit those that had a successful juniors hunt. Notice I said successful in my limitation. The kids still have OTC turkey tags and are eligible for OTC archery deer tags. It's time (IMO) that we sat back and looked at opportunity from a different perspective. Those that just had it need to be thankful and understand that they will be limited in some restrictive manner to avail those that haven't a slightly better chance of getting drawn. By them having a successful hunt they then can move up to the main draw and try for their next tag at that species with a cow tag with better odds or a bull tag that's harder to draw but at the same odds they will face as adults. It begins to condition them for what they will see as adults.

When you have a specie like elk that's in such high demand you have to spread the wealth over a broader spectrum. You know that I'm pretty passionate about such matters but at some point you have to draw a line. The fact these kids can hunt deer, javelina, turkey, elk is fabulous but trying to get them multiple opportunities at an elk before they turn 18 seems unreasonable since so many will not even get to hunt an elk by then and many more will not even have hunted one before they're 21. If we can allocate more tags for them I'm fully in support of that but not for multiple opportunities on elk. If the truth be known we probably could quadruple the tags and still wouldn't meet the demand if all the kids out there applied for them. It's time the sportsmen of this state learned to share a bit and what better place to start than with our future hunters.

RR.I certainly don't see anything wrong with the parents understanding & communicating that the kid will be eligible for 1 junior elk tag and let them decide when to start applying if it's 10 it's 10 but better at 14. I don't see enough resource numbers to make it feasible to allow them multiple opportunities as a junior on elk in that the majority still go without any opportunity until they use the general draw. Archery youth tags may be a way to handle it and that would couple well with the archery in schools program. That will be a tough sell when the chairman isn't fond of archery hunting in the first place but it's not a bad idea!
 
RR,

with all respect, i took a quick look at the draw odds from last yr. and found more than 10 100% draws on cow elk in what i would consider decent units/hunts that were "out of the jr. pool." what keeps the youngsters from drawing one of these permits? we still have several deer hunts that are in great units with 100% odds, give away javelina tags, bear, OTC turkey for jrs., quail, predators,.......... i think the hunter recruitement scandal the azg&f is playing to the people falls on the shoulders of the parents. there is ample opportunity for the young-teenage kids to enjoy the outdoors through hunting big/small game in az. on a YEARLY basis.

i wouldn't be so against giving a greater % of the current allocated tags to jrs., however, i am absolutely against handing out more tags in addition to our current inflated allotment to meet what the azg&f calls "hunter recruitement."

BTW, i waited five yrs. for my first bull tag. a late hunt in unit 1. it was awesome. shot a spike. before that, i hunted deer twice and cow elk once in N.M. the fire burns in me still. don't feel like i was handed the short end of the stick. parents need to take responsiblity for this one, not the big game herds in az.
 
First of all, many years ago I proposed the "one and done" proposal for all juniors tags. This despite being a Hunter Ed Chief Instructor and a very outspoken juniors advocate.

Here is my rationale.

I see the same kids getting the same tags over and over, while I know that others who want to go, miss out.

The purpose of juniors hunts is to recruit and yes to retain. However the recruitment aspect I think is much more important.

I firmly believe that the G&F needs to give the kids a chance to go on one juniors hunt for deer, elk (cow),javelina and turkey. No matter the result, they go on the hunt and next time they have to apply in the regular pool. That concept also defeats some of the G&F people's position that the kids hunts are trophy hunts. Not true. Dept. statistics show that the hunt success and the type of bucks taken are the same, no matter the time of the hunt.

My feeling is that once they've went through those four hunts, they'll know if they want to keep hunting.

Let others have a chance,

I also hope that you folks will write to G&F and let them know if you support juniors hunt guidelines that would put a December juniors deer hunt in EVERY region!

I assume you know the battle we fought over this last month and now, once and for all, the decision will be made to allow or not allow juniors only hunts in December.

G&F should see that with the demand they have for those 30 December muzzleloader deer tags in Region III from kids all over AZ,the need for each region to have a hunt is there.

Bottom line is some kids can't hunt deer any time other than the December break.

WE don't need to see roadblocks in front of kids, we need opportunity. And we need it all over the state!

Don Martin
 
Billy,
While some units like 2B and 4BN may have 100% draw odds, the hunt success has been 0% in certain years. The antlerless hunt in units 15-20 does have good hunt success, but homework is needed to succeed due to lower elk densities.

Like you, I am not for increasing the number of tags on top of what is already there, but shifting from general to youth.

Regarding the opportunity to hunt, would an adult hunter be willing to give up/reduce general permit numbers and hunt rabbit and squirrels to afford a better chance for a kid to hunt deer or elk? I know many are willing to sign over their tag to their own son or daughter, but would they be willing to possibly not draw so a stranger's kid can have a better chance to draw a cow or deer tag?

Another option to increase the chances of youth drawing is to have Mom, who may not hunt, apply and sign over the tag if drawn. How many do this, I do not know.

Doug~RR
 
Doug:

Signing over the tag doesn't end it there. My understanding is that they have to be in the field with the youngster when they are hunting.

I'll verify that tomorrow.

Don
 
Don you are correct. But then we have opened another can of worms in that many have their wives apply year after year only to add them to their own application so as to increase their bonus points after being drawn. I have no issue with a parent signing over a tag to any child but as you can see many will abuse any system you come up with if you give them an angle. Ones a very worthy cause and the other is an abuse of the system pure and simple just to increase their odds to be able to hunt.
 
>Billy,
>While some units like 2B and
>4BN may have 100% draw
>odds, the hunt success has
>been 0% in certain years.
> The antlerless hunt in
>units 15-20 does have good
>hunt success, but homework is
>needed to succeed due to
>lower elk densities.
>
>Like you, I am not for
>increasing the number of tags
>on top of what is
>already there, but shifting from
>general to youth.
>
>Regarding the opportunity to hunt, would
>an adult hunter be willing
>to give up/reduce general permit
>numbers and hunt rabbit and
>squirrels to afford a better
>chance for a kid to
>hunt deer or elk?
>I know many are willing
>to sign over their tag
>to their own son or
>daughter, but would they be
>willing to possibly not draw
>so a stranger's kid can
>have a better chance to
>draw a cow or deer
>tag?
>
>Another option to increase the chances
>of youth drawing is to
>have Mom, who may not
>hunt, apply and sign over
>the tag if drawn.
>How many do this, I
>do not know.
>
>Doug~RR


RR,

I never imagined the success rates would be 0% for 4B cow, however, I honestly didn't take the time to research that.

I did do some quick research on cow hunts in response to Don's and RR's concerns. Anybody has these draw odds for cow elk in az.

1 (RV)-100%
3a/3c -55%
4B -100%
5A -62%
5BN -53%
5BS -60%
6B -81%
7E -60%
8 -46%
9 -73%
10 -94%
22S -48%
23N -50%

i feel like if anyone can draw an elk tag of anykind in az. every two yrs., jr. or senior citizen, there is plenty of "opportunity." there are GREAT cow hunts in EVERY region that have 1 or 2 yr. draws. go get em' jrs. i don't understand what the concern is. please explain. i am serious.

as far as deer hunts go. i don't need to grab the regs to tell you there are SEVERAL deer hunts with 100% draw odds in GREAT units. i am at a loss as to why anyone can pull the "opportunity" card. don, is the concern the "opportunity" or the dates? do jrs. really need to hunt in december? i don't have the anecdotal evidence you would based off your backround.

RR,

I would happily support transfering bull tags from the general draw to a jr. only hunt if i thought "opportunity" was the real issue. i just need somebody to give me some anecdotal evidence that lack of opportunity will be the detriment of hunter recruitment in our teenage population and i will jump on ship. i DON'T feel like decreased "opportunity" has anything to do with what the azgfd has interpreted as declining hunter recruitement. what the real issue should be is retention. please somebody through me a bone. on all accounts, a jr. can hunt any animal legally hunted in the state every yr. with elk being a max two yr. wait.

what happens with the azgfd is this:
1. increase "hunter opportunity/revenue" through increased cow tags
2. the bull/cow ratio increases b/c they increased cow harvests with stable bull harvests
3. they issue more bull tags to meet their proposed management objectives
4. we are back at square one with less elk, expanded government (azgfd), higher operating costs, the need for more $$ to pay for their expansion, and no bread left in the basket.

it is a viscious cycle IMO. please someone explain to me w/examples how we have decreased hunter recruitement as relates to lack of opportunity amongst jrs. thanks.
 
Billy:

Just a couple of points.

I think we all agree that kids are the future of hunting in not only AZ but in America.

We have to get the kids engaged and then keep them in the sport.

Every juniors big game tag that is offered in AZ is oversubscribed, some more than others.

My support for the December time frame hunt is based upon the fact that SOME but not all kids are able to only hunt during that time period. I think that during the last "debate" with Region III over the reasons why that December muzzleloader hunt should stay where it was, we made a fairly substantial case showing there is the need to keep the December time frame in place, and there is a need statewide to have a deer hunt during that time frame.

We found out that that there are a number of valid reasons why kids can't hunt in Oct. or November. The December time frame works out for them and for many, it is the ONLY time they could hunt deer. Again, why throw up any roadblocks to stop them?

I agree the hunt in December will be more valuable in retaining rather than recruiting young hunters, but so be it, we have to keep the kids engaged in this sport.

A number of years ago I did a very unscientific study, asking folks in the Kingman area if they would give up their general deer tag if it meant a juniors could go hunting. It was about a 3-1 ratio to those that said "YES!"

Again, that was some time ago, but I think that we as adults can see the hand writing on the wall. Sure we want to go hunting, but we have to make sure that the kids get to go also.

Some out there say "screw the kids" but I think they are in the minority. I have been blessed to have been able to go hunting for many years, and I sure don't have a problem letting the young ones have the same or better opportunity than I did.

The last Arizona elk tag I drew (early muzzleloader on the Camp Navajo) I signed over to a great kid from Hunt Of A Lifetime. I might not ever get another bull tag here but that's OK. In that case it was the right thing to do.

As a juniors advocate, I hope to see more smiles on the faces of the kids that go hunting and have a great outdoor experience.

I will work towards that goal, and hope that others out there will do the same.

There is no juniors advocacy group right now in AZ. Maybe there should be, but in the mean time, let's work to get and keep them in the field.

I'll get off my soap box now!

Don Martin
 
Don,
If Mom has to be in the field, that's great by me. Perhaps even recruit an adult by her having a positive experience being there.

I agree with your point about the need of junior hunts being in various times of the year to circumvent the shool activities like football, basketball, soccer, band, that require every weekend during the season.

With the deer odds noted by Billy and below, perhaps a "1-and-out" is not needed for deer. The draw odds for 16A Jr is 71%. A low seems to be 30% with unit 23 Jr. If youth hunters are removed from the system due to a previous draw, will we then create leftover tags and in essence worse opp by not issuing the tags in the draw? Granted they can get the tags in teh leftover process, but how may permitless hunters take advantage of the chance? Instead, maybe more permits need to be shifted to the popular junior hunts. There are kids with 5 & 6 BP applying for some of the Jr hunts. This would indicate a "1-and-out" may work.


Billy,
Yes, it does seem that there is plenty of deer opportunity for juniors due to the leftover WT permits, 96% draw on the Kaibab doe hunt and 100% in 20C.

Regarding elk, the draw odds are less than deer, and perhaps Don's 1-and-out has merit. Seems most junior will get a cow elk tag once every 3 years under the current system, which is not bad.


Overall, maybe the junior hunt program is not in dire straits and needs just a few tweeks. Regardless, evaluating the system and discussing it civilly like here has merit, imo.

Doug~RR
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 10:11AM (MST)[p]>Don,
>If Mom has to be in
>the field, that's great by
>me. Perhaps even recruit an
>adult by her having a
>positive experience being there.

I couldn't find anywhere in the regs where this is the case. Here's the rule that addresses it.

R12-4-121
Big Game Permit or Tag Transfer
A. A parent or guardian to whom a big game hunt permit tag
may transfer the unused permit or tag to
the parent's or guardian?s minor child, if:
1. The minor child is from 10 to 17 years old on the
date of transfer,
2. The minor child has a valid hunting license on the
date of transfer, and
3. A minor child less than 14 years old satisfactorily
completes a Department-approved hunter education
course by the beginning date of the hunt.
B. A parent or guardian may obtain a transfer, in person, at
any Department office. To obtain a transfer, a parent or
guardian shall provide the following:
1. Proof of ownership of the big game permit or tag to
be transferred;
2. The minor?s valid hunting license; and
3. The unused big game permit or tag.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
>Billy:
>
>Just a couple of points.
>
>I think we all agree that
>kids are the future of
>hunting in not only AZ
>but in America.
>
>We have to get the kids
>engaged and then keep them
>in the sport.
>
>Every juniors big game tag that
>is offered in AZ is
>oversubscribed, some more than others.
>
>
>My support for the December time
>frame hunt is based upon
>the fact that SOME but
>not all kids are able
>to only hunt during that
>time period. I think that
>during the last "debate" with
>Region III over the reasons
>why that December muzzleloader hunt
>should stay where it was,
>we made a fairly substantial
>case showing there is the
>need to keep the December
>time frame in place, and
>there is a need statewide
>to have a deer hunt
>during that time frame.
>
>We found out that that there
>are a number of valid
>reasons why kids can't hunt
>in Oct. or November. The
>December time frame works out
>for them and for many,
>it is the ONLY time
>they could hunt deer. Again,
>why throw up any roadblocks
>to stop them?
>
>I agree the hunt in December
>will be more valuable in
>retaining rather than recruiting young
>hunters, but so be it,
>we have to keep the
>kids engaged in this sport.
>
>Some out there say "screw the
>kids" but I think they
>are in the minority. I
>have been blessed to have
>been able to go hunting
>for many years, and I
>sure don't have a problem
>letting the young ones have
>the same or better opportunity
>than I did.

>As a juniors advocate, I hope
>to see more smiles on
>the faces of the kids
>that go hunting and have
>a great outdoor experience.
>
>I will work towards that goal,
>and hope that others out
>there will do the same.

>
>I'll get off my soap box
>now!
>
>Don Martin

Don,

first and foremost thanks for your passion in this matter. i really do share with you many of the same feelings. i, like you, believe in recruitment of jr. hunters as well as retention of them. i have a young one myself and would give anything for him to be able to hunt az. big game. however, i share a different view point than others.

you said. "I think we all agree that kids are the future of hunting in not only AZ but in America. We have to get the kids engaged and then keep them in the sport. Every juniors big game tag that is offered in AZ is oversubscribed, some more than others." i completely agree with the above statement, however, why can't the jr. hunters apply for the hunts that i have previously mentioned. "Hunter Opportunity" is not the issue here IMO. there is plenty of opportunity for ANYONE to enjoy big game hunting in az. on a yearly basis. IMO not having enough december deer tags for jrs. is not the reason why some believe there is a lack of jr. recruitment.

could you please share the talking points you expressed at the g and f meeting when you fought to keep the dec. deer hunt dates where they were? i am interested in knowing the foundation on which beliefs are built. please share them with us so i can better understand this situation. thanks.
 
RR,

i agree 100000% in the 1-and out program don is suggesting for the more quality hunts, such as bull elk and or a "trophy type deer hunt."

i strongly feel that the jr. hunt program is not in shambles, however, a few tweaks in the current system might provide better experiences and greater recruitment/retention. i enjoy civilly debating/discussing these issues and find worth in doing so.
 
Tony I'm wondering if common sense has prevailed and they changed it. I know that it used to be they had to be in the field because we had a friend that had surgery on a broken collarbone do it about 4-6 years ago and they told her that she had to be in the field when she went to the department to transfer the tag to her son. I know she didn't make it up because I helped them on the hunt and brought out his elk for them while his dad was away in the military. It wasn't as big an issue for her but what about a parent that broke a leg or something how could they be in the field so a change would make sense. Maybe there were some other circumstances involved I wasn't aware of but she said she had to go because I offered to take him alone and she said it would be illegal unless she went.
 
OK, here is what I just printed off the G&F web site concerning tag transfers.

"A parent, grandparent, or legal guardian may transfer their big game tag to a minor child or minor grandchild to take big game pursuant to the following requirements:
1) The minor child if 10-17 years old on the date of the transfer:
2) The minor child has a valid hunting license or combination hunting license on the date of the transfer:
3) A minor child less than 14 years old has satisfactorily completed a department-approved hunter education course by the date of the transfer:
4) The parent or guardian must accompany the child in the field or, if a grandparent allows a minor grandchild to use the grandparent's permit or tag, the grandparent, parent or the child's guardian must accompany the child in the field. In either case, the adult must be within 50 yards of the child when the animal is taken."

While I am no attorney, the way I read it is that if whoever transfers the tag to them, must be with them!

I have sent G&F an e-mail asking for clarification. I read this to say that if mom signs the tag over to juniors, SHE and not dad, has to be there. Same with grandpa.

I could be wrong on this, just waiting to hear back from G&F.

Don Martin
 
I believe it can be any of the above.

Grandparent or parent or guardian, doesn't have to be the one that signed over the tag. Just has to be one of them.

2 yrs ago one of my friend's Father-in-law, that hunts with us also, made a mistake and drew a late rifle bull tag, instead of a earlier cow tag. I know, that's a good mistake. He's just past 80 and still a sharp as a tack but hates camping in cold weather. Won't go on that hunt even though we try talking him into it.

I suggest giving it to his great grandson who is 12, my buddies grandson, or HOAL. They look into giving it to the GGS and G&F say no, only to a GS. I tell my buddy to call back because that's not right, a GS or GGS is still a GS.

Finally G&F decide, yes a GGS qualifies.

The question of who needs to be with the youth hunter is discussed because the original tag holder is not going for the same reasons he didn't want the tag to start with.

G&F said it was fine for the GF or parent or guardian. They transfered the tag and My buddy the GF and the father both went, I went up for a day.

Sometimes you get different answers and just have to keep at it if you know your probably right.

Kent
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]Don, you ARE RIGHT!!

This topic is addressed in FOUR different places in the current booklet, and in two places, the bit about the parent/guardian going afield is omitted! See the part below the ***

So, I just got off the phone with someone on the G&F rules committee and explained how screwed up they now have the regs on this. It is noted to make sure the RULE gets changed, which doesn't require legislative action. BUT...because of the moratorium on any rule changes put in place by the governor, the soonest it can be addressed is July.

***

If you look on pg. 13 of the 2009-2010 Deer booklet, you see:

Tag Transfers
? The minor child is 10 to 17 years old on the
date of transfer;
? The minor child has a vaild hunting or combination
license on the date of transfer;
? A minor child less than 14 years old has satisfactorily
completed a department-approved
hunter education course by the beginning
date of the hunt;
? The parent or guardian must accompany the
child in the field or, if a grandparent allows
a minor grandchild to use the grandparent's
permit or tag, the grandparent, parent or the
child?s guardian must accompany the child
in the field. In either case, the adult must be
within 50 yards of the child when the animal
is taken.

Once a tag is transferred, the original permittee
may no longer use it.
A person may transfer his or her game tag for
use by a child with a life threatening medical
condition. Consult A.R.S. 17-332 for more information,
or visit www.azgfd.gov.

Then if you look on pg. 30, you see:

Transfer Tags
PAREN TS
Under Arizona Revised Statutes and Arizona Game and Fish Commission
Rules there are ways people can transfer big game tags to children.
A parent, guardian or grandparent to whom a big game permit or tag
is issued may transfer the unused permit or tag to the parent's, guardian?s
or grandparent's minor child if:
? The minor child is between 10 to 17 years old on the date of
transfer;
? The minor child has a valid hunting or combination license on the
date of the transfer; and
? A minor child less than 14 years old has satisfactorily completed a Department-
approved hunter education course by date of transfer.
See R12-4-121 on page 109 for more information.
A person may transfer his or her big game tag for use by a child with
a life threatening medical condition. Consult A.R.S. 17-332 on page 99.
Should you be unable to use your big game permit, the Department is
unable to reimburse you for your fees or reinstate your bonus points.
However, you may donate your tag to a nonprofit organization that
provides hunting opportunities to children with life-threatening medical
conditions. You may contact the following organizations to arrange
for a donation.
? Hunt of a Lifetime at www.hoalarizona.org.
? Catch-A-Dream at http://catchadream.org.
? United Special Sportsmen Alliance at www.childswish.com.

Then if you look at the RULE which on pg. 109, whichI posted earlier you see:

R12-4-121
Big Game Permit or Tag Transfer
A. A parent or guardian to whom a big game hunt permittag
is issued may transfer the unused permit or tag to
the parent's or guardian?s minor child, if:
1. The minor child is from 10 to 17 years old on the
date of transfer,
2. The minor child has a valid hunting license on the
date of transfer, and
3. A minor child less than 14 years old satisfactorily
completes a Department-approved hunter education
course by the beginning date of the hunt.
B. A parent or guardian may obtain a transfer, in person, at
any Department office. To obtain a transfer, a parent or
guardian shall provide the following:
1. Proof of ownership of the big game permit or tag to
be transferred;
2. The minor?s valid hunting license; and
3. The unused big game permit or tag.

Then if you look on pg. 99 at the referenced STATUTE A.R.S. 17-332 under D, you see:

D. No license or permit is transferable, nor shall such
license or permit be used by anyone except the person
to whom such license or permit was issued, except that:
1. A person may transfer the person?s big game permit
or tag to a qualified organization for use by a minor
child who has a life threatening medical condition or
by a minor child who has a permanent physical disability.
The commission may prescribe the manner
and conditions of transferring and using permits and
tags under this paragraph. If a physically disabled
child is under fourteen years of age, the child must
satisfactorily complete the Arizona hunter education
course or another comparable hunter education
course that is approved by the director. For the purposes
of this paragraph:
(a) ?Disability? means a permanent physical impairment
that substantially limits one or more of the
child?s major life activities requiring the assistance
of another person or a mechanical device
for physical mobility.
(b) ?Qualified organization? means a nonprofit
organization that is qualified under section
501(c)(3) of the United States internal revenue
code and that affords opportunities and experiences
to children with life threatening medical
conditions or with physical disabilities.
2. A parent, grandparent or legal guardian may allow
the parent's, grandparent's or guardian?s minor
child or minor grandchild to use the parent's, grandparent's
or guardian?s big game permit or tag to take
big game pursuant to the following requirements:
(a) The parent, grandparent or guardian must
transfer the permit or tag to the child in a manner
prescribed by the commission.
(b) The parent or guardian must accompany the
child in the field or, if a grandparent allows a
minor grandchild to use the grandparent's permit
or tag, the grandparent, the parent or the
child?s guardian must accompany the child in
the field. In either case, the adult must be within
fifty yards of the child when the animal is taken.

(c) The child must possess a class F, class G, class
K, class M or class N license and, if under fourteen
years of age, must satisfactorily complete
the Arizona hunter education course or another
comparable hunter education course that is
approved by the director.
(d) Any big game that is taken counts toward the
child?s bag limit.



TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
To all sportsman;
I have listened to the youth hunt discussion, for many years.
I will say this once, not to wave my own flag but to let you all know what I am about.
First off I have never had kids.
I was on the first kaibab youth hunt and every hunt since, until a heart attack slowed me down.
I have been to 2 calf camps, held by the AES.
I've been to more youth camps thruout the state than I can remember.
I said that to let you all know I DO support youth hunts, and love to see the kids enjoy all the new experiences.
Wheather the new recruit to hunting is 6 or 60, we all must make an effort to help them all we can.
Take them to the map shop and discover what you can find, plan a trip and compare the maps to the actual landscape.
Sit a water hole in 6A and watch a young bull come in , only to have your young friend point out the bull to you in a loud whisper. Thus causing the young bull to soil himself, slip into the water , and though you are sitting shoulder to shoulder
he discribes the whole scene blow by blow. Yet an other lesson learned. Plan a scouting trip to glass for sheep. Check and recheck your pack. polish up your bino's check all your gear twice. Get up the mountain, spot something on the far ridge, only to find out your tripod adaptor doesn't work with his orher bino's. An other lesson learned. How about a trip to big lake. a little trout fishing, enjoy the beautiful country and maybe see some elk.
These examples and a 1,000 others, is how I see introducing young and old alike to the great outdoors. You might have seen none of my examples required a big game tag, to enjoy.
I've heard parents say to me that they can't take their family outdoors if they can't have more youth tags, and I say B.S. to that.
Take a kid out scouting and learn how to glass, spot animals and plan a stock, get close and use a video camera to capture the moment.
I agree with Don, that if you have recieved a tag, give another young person a chance to experience the whole thing.
You can hook youngsters with hunting small game. All the lessons of safety, stalking , and field dressing can be accomplished with a great squirrel hunt.
I do believe that kids should get a break, and have worked many years to make it happen.
I've heard commissioners say " how many kids will graduate hunter safety this year " and think every kid should get a youth tag. We don't have the animals for it , and kids should learn to know that our wildlife is not there for their amusement. Management, meat in the freezer, and outdoor challenges are the lessons we should be teaching the youth.
I believe that young people read this forum, and when we talk about how to beat the game, we defeat what we are trying to teach.
My 2 cents worth
Steve Cheuvront
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]Sure didn't mean to open up a can of worms about donating a tag and what has to happen, and who has to be there, but as Tony has pointed out, there sure seems to be a problem with the language.

I still haven't heard back from G&F, but I plan to follow up to see if I can get a definitive answer.

In the meantime, let a kid go hunting!

Steve under my "One and Done" proposal new kids each year get the chance to go hunting for the four species we have juniors tags for.

Tell me, we know that there isn't enough tags to go around, but doesn't "One and Done" give more opportunity, under the tag system we have in place, for DIFFERENT kids each year to experience a big game hunt? And isn't that what we're trying to do with juniors hunts?

Small game hunts are great, and you bet, we ought to let the kids sample them too.

Back to my December time frame issue. I just don't believe that G&F should have any roadblocks out there to keep kids from hunting in December, no matter what their reason is, school, band, sports, drama, etc.

There is no biological reason to not have the hunts in December, if you believe the data that G&F has given us as to success, size of critter, etc. during those hunts.

I know some G&F people thing this is a big "trophy" hunt, but statistics don't lie, and I hope the Commission understands this in their final say on this matter in September.

Don Martin
 
Don I don't think he was referring to you but I opened the can of worms with the spousal thing. I think you and I are squarely on the same page on this about the kids and both of us have addressed the commission regarding the matter multiple times. I just wrote another letter on it last week when they asked for input.

So it's probably my bad but I don't see any harm in letting a kid see that mommy never hunts and daddy uses her bonus points either. If they sign the tag over to the kid all's well in my book no harm no foul. But circumventing the system to gain more opportunity for good old Dad at someone elses expense is wrong. In my house we don't sweep wrong under the carpet we deal with it. Legal it may be but we all know it's circumventing the system and you don't build resposible adults by compromising the system. Compromising the system is just what has eroded the values that we as Americans used to hold so dear. Letting individuals get away with it only reinforces their behavior and this isn't something that needs an atta boy. It's kind of like cheating on a test and not getting caught. Just because you did it doesn't make it right.

Other than that point I agree with everything Steve said. Steve I apologize if I offended you or anyone else in any way with my comments.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-09 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]>I still haven't heard back from
>G&F, but I plan to
>follow up to see if
>I can get a definitive
>answer.

As it is now, the definitive answer is the A.R.S. 17-332 statute wording, i.e. the adult has to be there. That's why I suggested they change the rule and also make sure that aspect is mentioned anywhere else the tranfer is outlined.

Any change to the statute, such as elimnating that part, would require legislative action.


TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Don,

you said. "Tell me, we know that there isn't enough tags to go around, but doesn't "One and Done" give more opportunity, under the tag system we have in place,"

this would be considered socialistic hunting by some. not quite a preference point system but somewhere in between our current b.p. system combined with % max pass and a pref system. could make for a good debate. i consider it "fair and balanced." what hunts are you refering to when you use the phrase "one and done?" i hope you get that pushed through if it's what i think you're trying to say.

i am not sure what you are pushing for when you say there needs to be a december hunt for kids in every region. could you please clarify?
 
Billy:

"One and Done means this. Every young sportsmen (junior)between the ages of 10-17 could apply for one of the four species of big game animals for which there are currently juniors-only hunts available.

Those are deer, antlerless elk, javelina and turkey (even though there are now turkey tags available to juniors across the counter, so that may be off the table now.

Under my "One and Done" proposal every juniors who draws one of those big game tags, would be ineligible to draw another juniors only tag for the same species UNLESS there were tags leftover. If there were tags leftover, then any juniors could obtain one, providing he/she hadn't already drawn another general tag.

This way, every year there would be a new group of juniors deer, elk, javelina and turkey(?) hunters in the field.

I call it spreading the wealth. I know some kids who have four bonus points and are still waiting for a juniors deer tag, while other kids seem to draw them every year.

If the purpose of juniors hunts is to give kids the opportunity to hunt without all the pressure of competing with Dad, Uncle Bob, etc. to help them make the decision if they want to continue hunting, then why do they need multiple same species tags? One of each should be sufficient for the youngsters, who has seven years to get all four of them, and thus make that determination. Spreading out the tags should also have the benefit of not only recruitment, but retention of them as well into our sport.

OK, you asked why do I want to see December juniors-only deer hunts in every region.

About 10 years ago, the sportsmen in Region III asked this Region to make a December juniors-only muzzleloader deer hunt. This was because we have a lot of muzzleloader hunters in our region who wanted to pass down the tradition of hunting deer with a muzzleloader, plus a lot of the kids were involved in sports, band, drama, and other school programs that interfered with the kids being able to hunt deer.

The kids were out of school for two weeks during the annual Christmas break and by them hunting at that time, it allowed for them not to miss school, sports or any other activity that would otherwise prevent them from hunting deer.

It was and is a win-win situation for the kids-parents and the schools. Our community, including most of the school people, strongly supports that time frame.

There were other December hunts around the state, but the G&F Commission decided to phase them out; their direction to the department was that all juniors hunts would be in just two time frames, October and November.

Though Region III tried to stay in compliance with Commission direction, we the sportsmen of Mohave County raised holy hell about it and our 30-permit muzzleloader hunt was and still is retained, despite not being in guidelines.

One other point. In the "old days" Mohave County kids got the bulk of these 30 tags.

But parents around the state (and even out of state) quickly found out the same issues existed in their part of the state as we had. Kids still had the same issues of school, sports, extracurricular activities, etc. that kids in Mohave County have.

Now a full 66% of those tags goes to kids outside of Mohave County, including 10% (3) each year that goes to non-resident kids.

So what should that be telling the G&F Department and Commission? I say it absolutely shows the need to have limited December juniors deer hunts in EVERY Region in Arizona!

Cut some earlier tags if you must, but have a December juniors only deer hunt and help out those kids!

The Department says that the hunt success, and quality of animals taken are the same no matter what time of the year the hunt is in. The difference is that on the average, kids on the December hunt stay on the average one more day than the others do.

Why? Because they can! They have the time and someone is there to go out with them.

So why not accommodate the kids that can only hunt during the Christmas break? Does it hurt anything? Does it cause a biological problem for the critters? Nope, Department says biologically it makes no difference.

As a juniors advocate, I want to see them engaged in our sport.

They are the future, don't you agree?

iPods, twittering, and the Internet are pulling kids out of the sport fast. I wanna keep them engaged.

I'm looking for a "silver bullet" and haven't found one yet that will address ALL of the concerns.

But we have to try or just fold up and let it die.

I for one, am not willing at this time to do that.

Don Martin
 
I just got a reply from Mr. Dave Williams at G&F.

I gave him the scenario about a mother signing over her tag to her son. Does she have to be with him in the field when he's hunting.

Mr. Williams response is, "No just a licensed adult."

Wow am I ever confused....

Don
 
Boskee;
Hey, you don't have to say you're sorry to me.
It's just Cheuvront, one of the guy's here.
I was feeling mean, when I wrote that story, folks who
use their kids to get special treatment.Bla Bla
I want as much opportunity for kids as we can get in a realistic way.
You have all worked the youth hunts, and the first thing you learn is that a lot of parents don't know enough about what to do in the field. These folks have the desire and willingness to learn, and we at the camps , have jumped all over the chance to help. Remember, alot of the parents as well as the kids need our help.
There a whole bunch of clubs and organizations that put on fishing clinics, dove shoots, predator calling weekends, etc. etc.
The AZG&FD puts on a great event here lately, which gives everybody a chance to shoot all types of guns, try archery,
trap and skeet, test new atv's etc.
I think all these, plus what ever each of us can personally do to promote bringing a new person into enjoying the great outdoors.
A plain old camping weekend for some folks would answer a lot of unknowns, that scare the heck out of them. We who have grown up doing this, sometimes forget their are folks who would love to start hunting and fishing but don't know how to take the first step.
Don, I understand your 1 tag for each species and then go to the regular draw and allowing the other kids a chance to have the full experience.
I also back you 100% on providing december hunt opportunity
thruout the state. The numbers are small , the impact is low and the benifite is huge. Let's get it done, sign me up!
I will shut up now!
Steve Cheuvront
 
Wow, Game and Fish doesn't even seem to have a final answer on the parent-in-the-field requirement, that IS scary. This definitely requires clarification.

The one thing that needs to be taken into account and hasn't been discussed is the fact that Arizona Game and Fish has made it much cheaper for both resident and non-resident youth to hunt. Especially if the kid applies for a ?Juniors Only? elk hunt. For example, a NON RESIDENT youth is allowed to purchase a $15.00 YOUTH hunting license (NON-RESIDENT adults pay $151.25 for the license alone ? over a hundred bucks more than their kids) and pay a reduced $57.50 fee to apply for a junior only elk hunts. This means it costs a NON RESIDENT youth $72.50 to apply for a junior elk tag (they can also apply for a bonus point for $7.50, that is a $22.50 bonus point for elk every year?..this is very cheap and will mean there will be a lot of kids at the top of the bonus pool in a little over a decade).

It is even cheaper for juniors only deer, these tags are $32.50 each making it only $47.50 for a kid into the game. This puts a lot of pressure on the availability of junior only hunts. It also makes it really cheap for a slim population of scumbag fathers to use their kids as bonus point storage units. I THINK THAT YOUTH APPLICANTS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SELECT THE BONUS POINT ONLY OPTION IF THEY ARE APPLYING WITH A $15.00 YOUTH CLASS HUNTING LICENSE.

I really hope AZGFD is also validating the hunter education on all drawing applications with dates of birth that indicate the applicant is a youth. If not, there are lots of unqualified youth applicants racking up bonus points. Kids should also be ?required? to carry a hunter education card in the field at all times (I don't know if proof of hunter education is required in the field currently).

I also agree with Don?s ?ONE AND DONE? rule. However I disagree with the assertion that more buck hunts need to be included under the junior umbrella. A kid that kills a buck is no more likely to retain a love for hunting than one that kills a doe. I would be more likely to agree with this if there was evidence that suggested there was no ability to add any more junior only doe tags in Arizona. As for the December timing, I think this is generally viewed as a ?high quality? hunt season and would see these hunts as being as much for the parents as it is for the kids. I do think junior hunts need to be timed for high success since this is key to making a lasting impression. As for December timing for school, good students can miss a day or two without a problem, at least my parents thought so. Don you definitely know the numbers better than I on this, I am open to changing my point of view.

As for the parent tag transfer issue, I think the issue is bigger than just a legal regulation mismatch. The rule that requires a minor to have the person that signed over the tag present is key to combating abuse in my opinion. I think it is wrong for a grandparent or parent that is physically incapable or mentally unwilling to hunt (at the time the application was submitted) to be allowed to sign a tag over to a child and sit at home while the kid is in the field. This amounts to ?gaming the system? in my opinion. I am glad this point of ambiguity was caught in the regulations and hope it will be corrected very soon. I sent the commissioners a quick note about this earlier this afternoon, the person that signed over the tag MUST be in the field when the animal is taken.

I have two small kids and my pockets are not overflowing with cash. I am excited at the thought of getting my kids in the field as soon as possible. I am only pointing out these loopholes so that others can see that there is room for abuse. I love the over the counter spring turkey tags for kids.

Here are some ideas to cover the loopholes (some have already been mentioned).

?No Bonus point only option for applicants applying with a $15.00 YOUTH class license

?Put a cap on the number of Junior tags available to NON RESIDENT youth if there isn't one already (I think there is though)

?Implement a ONE and DONE program for youth hunts (see Don?s post for an explanation)

?Implement a rule that limits the difference between the maximum and minimum number of bonus points a group application can have (would prevent people from riding the applications of other people (like kids) that have no interest in hunting ? I call these people ?Bonus Wives?) ? This is the biggest abuse of the Big Game Draw in my opinion

?Require youths to carry proof of Arizona Hunter Education in the field

?Ensure AZGFD maintains the rule that the parent/grandparent that signed over the tag must accompany the child in the field requirement

I spend a lot of time talking about bonus points and loopholes. There is going to be a lot of Bonus Point abuse in a few years if these loopholes remain much longer. A lot of dads will be using cheap points they picked up on the backs of their children.


Cheers,
Ryan
 
I like "one and done" but do not feel it is necessary for more December hunts, especially since they cut back the general draw december tags. I don't necessarily disagree with the "out of school logic" but like was mentioned.....use the hunt as motivation to do well in school and take them out a couple of days. That's what I did every year for the Utah general hunt. My calender was fiscal starting and ending on the end of October LOL.

I want to echo what Billy said. I do not believe that every opportunity for youth or beginners at any age are exhausted as it stands right now. There needs to be more responsibility on the PARENTS to be good and efficient at what they do. Upping the junior only tags is an out for the lazy parent in my opinion. Gosh dang it, I am so tired of seeing the quality of parent that comes through my office these days with their kids. It is disheartening. If a parent really wants their child to hunt and they are a responsible, involved parent they will FIND and MAKE the opportunity happen.....period. I do like the "one and done" theory but honestly the reason why Don sees the same ol' group get the tags is because those are the parents that are responsible and active to make it happen SOMETIMES. We need to see better responsibility and exhaustion of opportunities before I would feel comfortable designating more exclusive tags when there is such a higher demand spread across all demographics. IMO
 
I remember when I was growing up my dad took my brother and I on rabbit hunts and other small game, introducing us to the great outdoors. When I was 8, he finally took me on a deer hunt with him. Although I didn't have tag, it was one of the greatest days in my life, I was stepping into manhood. I accompanied my dad on his hunts until I was 14 when YEEHAW, I got my first tag (from the general pool) and have been hunting ever since. IMO a 10 year old is not ready to hunt big game and should wait just a little longer, too much emphasis is being put on a child having a tag. There is a lot more to hunting than pulling the trigger. My dad never killed anything or even shot at anything during my early years, yet it was the greatest time of my life. The only way I see to retain hunters is to ensure time spent in the field is quality time with people you enjoy being with. There are plenty of hunts kids can draw that will keep them hunting for years to come. Hunters, take your kids and anyone who shows an interest along with you and show them how much there is to enjoy in the great outdoors.

Rich.
 
Tata27;
Good post and welcome to the forum.
Chime in any time, remember you state your opinion,
and is DOESN'T have to agree whith anyone elses.
Again welcome
Steve Cheuvront
 
Guys:

As I said in an earlier post, there is no "silver bullet" to make all of this right for everyone. Not going to happen.

I'm trying to figure something out that does the best good for the most folks.

I like a lot of you, shared hunting in my youth with my dad, uncles and even my grandpa one time. But times have changed, society has changed, and I must sadly say that we're never going back to the way it "was."

To answer some questions, kids under 14 must carry their hunter ed card, hunting license and tag with them when they are in the field. Dad isn't suppose to be carrying it for them. We hammer on that in Hunter Ed.

And there is a 10% cap on non-residents kids on the juniors hunts, just like there is on the general hunts.

I don;t know what to think about the situation where mom or dad or grandpa signs over their tags. I thought it was fairly clear that the person that signed over the tag had to be in the field with the child.

I'll purse a solid answer to that question, as we also teach this information in Hunter Ed. We need to know what the bottom line is.

Anyway, great discussion from a lot of folks, glad to hear so many engaged in this discussion.

We will never all agree on all the points discussed herein, but we sure need to let the department and commission know how we feel.

Don Martin
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-09 AT 07:19AM (MST)[p]

I am a huge fan of Junior hunts and reduced price tags for kids.
With today's license & tag fees, it really helps a dad afford to get his kid involved in big game hunts.
I've been real fortunate to have a son that shares our passion.
I feel the "one & done" is the way to go, but I also feel that kids should have a shot at some big buck & bull tags.
Kids are no different than us, if they can enjoy successs on a good trophy, it gives them enormous pride and the accolades they recieve from experienced hunters just goes on to fuel the fire and cement that passion for the sport that we all love so much.
Those photos you see here of my kid on MM are more than just "glory shots", they are lessons well learned and each one a new chapter in the life of a young man discovering the magic of nature and the outdoors through the eyes of a sportsman.
I know that my son is hooked for life on hunting & fishing due to the successes that I strived for him to achieve.
He is a lucky one because I would have paid full price anyway for him to be at my side, but there are lots of kids and parents out there that need a price or opportunity break to introduce their kids to our sport.
Great conversation guys...
HH
 
Don,
I don't think anyone disagrees with you other than increasing the % of permits. Yes, society has changed but that is not an argument to increase the % of tags allocated to juniors. Hunter Harry is an example as to how a father has many opportunities to get his child involved in the outdoors. Yes, I like the reduced license fees and the current accommodations for youth. But raising tag % for youth is not needed and we cannot let parents off the hook "just because society has changed". So the parent may have to be proactive and actually put for more effort to get the kid off the Playstation or texting on their phone and get them out in the field......that's called good, effective parenting. My kids hate working in the yard to.....but I make em do it anyway LOL (even when they whine...oh this heat is killing me LOL).
 
I don't have a lot to add but do agree with Don on having a Dec jr hunt in each region, 30 tags per that would only be 150 tags extra total.

The G&F does a good job with the youth hunts, prices are low and supplying resources for youth hunting camps, something like 30 camps this year. There's always room for improvement but I can't say they are doing a bad job on this.

One and out for elk seems right.

I would like them to lower the prices on regular draw tags for jrs, should be a no brainer. Colorado does this, you can take a nr jr elk hunting for 100.00, reg tag. That's cheaper than putting them in for the reg draw here.

Kent
 
Guys;
I don't think Don is wanting more youth tags, he is wanting one of the existing hunts assigned, to be a hunt in the christmas time frame to allow kids a longer hunt without missing school activitys. Don, if I have misstated your meaning, please slap me down.
I can't believe how simple to understand and apply the "ONE AND DONE " idea is. I believe it will solve a lot of problems
and still allow more kids to enjoy big game hunting.
I will let others discuss the subject of youth trophy tags, since it will open a huge can of worms, and be a fight that
will set back youth hunting's fine rep.
Don, are you going to head up the kids corner in our upcoming talks with the commission?
Steve C.
 
Yes I misspoke when addressing Don on the tag % increase. I do not agree with more tags (3% to 10%) for youth but Don did not start that idea.

He does seem to be promoting more December tags, in each region. Would suggested junior tags be in addition to existing tag numbers (keep tag numbers the same for existing general hunts in those units) or would you take tags away from other hunts?

I am torn on this one. The ONLY reason why I would be for allocating more tags to a current unit during this CRITICAL time period would be to accommodate a kids school schedule. Two problems that don't initially sit well with me on this. One, if we say the units can sustain more tags issued out then why are the tag numbers not higher now? For those who think already the tag numbers are too high then they certainly won't want more tags out there, especially during the rut. If some feel we can use more tags in units without affecting the herds then the animal census' and reports should show we are under subscribing. From everything I can tell, we are already at the current limit on tag numbers. I don't want to increase the tags just for the sake of increasing hunt opportunity if it is against what the wildlife biologists are recommending to increase herd numbers, especially in the case of deer. Second, while it is a LUXURY to be able to hunt during kids school break I think this can be overcome by good parenting. The wildlife should not suffer due to LUXURIES and poor parenting. If one feels that adding these hunts would not affect the wildlife numbers then those tags should already be in the general hunts pool. Why aren't they then? That would be my question.
 
Guys;
The number of youth tags are a direct percentage of the total tags alloted.
Say 1000 total tags for deer
if youth get 5% , for example
General hunts would have 950 tags avaliable
Youth hunts would have 50 tags
Isn't this how it works?
Don is just talking about how they dole them out and when.
I think it's that simple.
If you want to debate kids and parents, I am neither so have at it.
Steve Cheuvront
 
Guys:

just to reiterate, I said that in order to facilitate the December juniors hunt, you can remove some (15 each) from the other two juniors hunts.

However, We're talking about just 30 tags here, with a 33-40% hunt success. That equates to what 10-13 bucks per region! Come on, you think that G&F can micro manage those bucks numbers that close? No way. Plus remember I've already noted that G&F has said that there is NO BIOLOGICAL issue with the December hunts!

I'd love to stay and debate this issue some more, but unfortunately I hear the striped bass at Lake Mead calling and I've got a date with two fishing poles at dark, so I got to go, take care and we'll see what else has come up when I return.

In the meantime remember this: "Kids today are the future for tomorrow."

Don Martin
 
Correction on my original post. I said "up to 3%", where as the AZ Hunt Guidelines actually say "at least 3%" Guess I shouldn't trust the memory anymore ;-)

In 2008, there were 2100 youth deer tags out of 44935 total, or 4.67%

RR
 

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