BESSY! Here is your chance: Fix the Henry’s

[Vanilla]

Alright Bobcatbess, there have been lots of threads talking about this, and now you’re getting your very own. Here is your chance to get rid of all the terrible management of the last 40 years (or is it 50 now?), and fix the Henry Mountains deer herd. JakeH had a great question that in classic Bessy fashion, you duck. But you can’t duck this one.

I’m not asking you to tell me the one thing you’d do, or even the top 3 things. Tell me what you’d do to fix the herd on just the Henry’s. If it’s 13 things, great. If it’s 113, sweet! Just tell us what.

Here are the ground rules:

1- This is only the Henry’s. We don’t care about your pizzcutters in the basin. We’re not fixing the Book Cliffs, just the Henry’s. This is an isolate deer herd that is unique, and it’s struggling. Fix it, nothing else.

2- Save us all the BS that won’t do anything for the herd. We don’t care what color trucks people drive or what type of mattress they sleep on, so stuck HELL RIGHT where the sun don’t shine and just stick to things that actually will help the Henry’s deer herd. Heck, even the life sentence for poaching isn’t going to do anything as poaching isn’t what put that herd where it is at.

Those two rules, that’s it. The world is your canvas. Tell us how you’d fix the Henry Mountains today when I make you king and you can do anything you want.

Let’s hear it Cat. Whatchu got? Put up or shut up time.

 

[elkassassin]

I've Told You On Several Occasions But You've Never F'N Once Listened!

In Your Mind,Hunting PISSCUTTERS Every F'N Year Is Way More Important Than Managing For a Healthy Deer Herd!

I Don't Have All The Answers For The Henries Herd!

We Need To Improve Numbers Of Deer,Do You F'N Hear That?

The Reason I Mentioned Cutting a Few Tags Before JakeH Showed The Numbers Was To Improve Quality/Age Class of a Few Bucks,Not Saying There Ain't Enough Bucks Per 100 Does Like You Were F'N Thinking!

I Didn't Know Until JakeH Posted The Numbers Showing The DWR Did In Fact Cut a Few Tags,Now You're Not F'N Pissed About The DWR Cutting a few F'N Tags But Me Mentioning Cutting a Few Tags F'N Pissed You Off,You've Admitted That!

I've Told You a F'N Million Times:

Until People Like Yourself & Others Comprehend There Are Many/50+ Issues With The Herd There Will Never Be Anything Change Except For The Worse!

I Think Your Too Young To Know Or Remember When Several Units Had To Be F'N Closed!

Keep Poundin/Takin The Cream & See What Happens Again!

I've Mentioned Bringing The Coyote Poison Back But You Didn't F'N Like That Cuzz It Might Kill a GAWD-DAMNED Magpie!

900 Head on a Unit The Size Of The F'N Henry Mountains is a GAWD-DAMNED Disgrace!

There Are Issues Beyond Our Control But You Pay No F'N Attention to That When I Say It!

I'd Transplant Some Different Genes Around The State & Yes I Do Know They've Tried a Little Of That,I Don't Know How Much!

Poaching Is a Way Bigger Issue Than You & Others Realize But You Don't Like My F'N Consequences For It!

Nothing Against Any Guides Anywhere,But when every one of The Best Bucks/Cream of the Crop Have Got People Camped on them for Weeks/Months before the Hunts Start,what's The Chance Of any Big Buck Surviving?

I Could Type For Days Just Like A Broken F'N Record!

Until The 50+ Issues Sink In Nothing Is Gonna Change!

It's a FUBAR!

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

Even hawky see's This & Admits He Doesn't See anything in Hunting Getting Any better as Time Goes On!

He Also SPEWS That Most Hunting Will Be Done On Private Property In The Future if You Want A Chance of Harvesting anything,I Won't Argue With It,But It Sure Is SAD!

Do You REALIZE Niller:

The Henry Mountains At One Time Was Some Of The Best Mule Deer Hunting Anywhere?

I Don't Claim To Be Able To Fix it!

But By GAWD I Wouldn't Keep Hunting It Down To Another Closure!

I'm Not Saying Hunting It Is The Reason it's Going Down Hill!

I'm Saying I've Seen It Closed!

I'd Rather Not See It Closed Again!

There's Enough Opportunists that Don't Give a RATS ASS Rather it gets destroyed as Long As They Get Their Piece of The Pie/PISSCUTTER!

Like I Said!

I Could Type For Days & You Wouldn't Like Any Of It!

Utah Will Grow Quality Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly!

Why Would You Wanna F It Up?

 

[Vanilla]

And there you go…he wants to talk about anything except the solutions.

Some people just like to b…. and moan because they aren’t capable of anything else.

Put up or shut up Bess. I’ll give you some time to organize your thoughts, but our drive this fall is goi f to be awkward if you just sit and b…. without providing solutions, cause then I’ll have to call you names the whole time.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

Don't Start Backin Your Ass Out Of The Ride Already!

hawky is Picking You Up & Meeting Me Out Here Even If He Has To Shackle You In!

I mention a Few Things That Would Help!

They Don't Make It A Solution!

How The HELL You Gonna Fix 50+ Issues When You Don't Even wanna Give Up Your Favorite Camo Loin Cloth?

And there you go…he wants to talk about anything except the solutions.

Some people just like to b…. and moan because they aren’t capable of anything else.

Put up or shut up Bess. I’ll give you some time to organize your thoughts, but our drive this fall is goi f to be awkward if you just sit and b…. without providing solutions, cause then I’ll have to call you names the whole time.

 

[Vanilla]

It’s not my fix, it’s yours. Go organize your thoughts. You’re king of the Henry’s, what are you doing? None of these baby steps that will help, give us all 50+! If you’re just talking a few things here in baby steps some crazy dude that doesn’t have a clue is going to come on here yelling in all caps at you. You don’t want that.

Jake asked you, now don’t be a sissy. Put up or shut up.

And I didn’t say we aren’t going. Again, you need to read. If you puuuss out of giving us your fixes here, I said the ride will be awkward when I call you names the whole time. That’s not backing out.

 

[TheOneRidgeRunner]

Might have to start with a simpler question for him.
How would you bake a batch of chocolate chip cookies?

Elkass, your whole rant you never gave a an awnser....
A few you hinted at
#1 Predator control. Yet you seem to have a problem however with lion control.
#2, Bringing in mixed gene's to strengthen a herd.
Any idea what they do prior to making that move?? Give ya a hint.. It involves predators.

Your 50+ issues exist, throw out some solutions to fix them.

 

[elkassassin]

Calling Me Names!

That Ought To Fix The Deer Herd!

I Can Handle The Name Calling!

I Took Good Care Of 2 Deer Predators This Morning Niller!

You're Always Asking(You & hawky) what I Do For The Deer Herd?

Them Two Won't Be Eating Any More Deer!

Does That Fix Everything?

Absolutely Not!

But What Did You & hawky Do To Better The Deer Herd Today?

It’s not my fix, it’s yours. Go organize your thoughts. You’re king of the Henry’s, what are you doing? None of these baby steps that will help, give us all 50+! If you’re just talking a few things here in baby steps some crazy dude that doesn’t have a clue is going to come on here yelling in all caps at you. You don’t want that.

Jake asked you, now don’t be a sissy. Put up or shut up.

And I didn’t say we aren’t going. Again, you need to read. If you puuuss out of giving us your fixes here, I said the ride will be awkward when I call you names the whole time. That’s not backing out.

 

[middlefork]

Lumpy wants to manage them like cows. So how do we grow feed during a drought? How much money is it going to take to provide feed for them? Who is going to grow forage to make pellets for feed in years they are not needed to feed during the years they are?

I posted a link to how cattle are effected during drought. Why would deer be different?

https://hazards.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/drought_impact_on_cattle_industry-Final-August-2020.pdf

Now I'm not saying drought is/was the only problem, but it was a pretty big one the last few years.

Now we are maybe dealing with winter kill (Henry)after a bad summer.

Everything I ever read says the DWR has been doing what everybody is asking them to do on the Henry. It's their flagship unit.

I would suggest that the bison along with cows out compete for forage on the unit.

Try getting rid of those maybe.

 

[slamdunk]

Lumpy wants to manage them like cows. So how do we grow feed during a drought? How much money is it going to take to provide feed for them? Who is going to grow forage to make pellets for feed in years they are not needed to feed during the years they are?

I posted a link to how cattle are effected during drought. Why would deer be different?

https://hazards.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/drought_impact_on_cattle_industry-Final-August-2020.pdf

Now I'm not saying drought is/was the only problem, but it was a pretty big one the last few years.

Now we are maybe dealing with winter kill (Henry)after a bad summer.

Everything I ever read says the DWR has been doing what everybody is asking them to do on the Henry. It's their flagship unit.

I would suggest that the bison along with cows out compete for forage on the unit.

Try getting rid of those maybe.

Not intending to high jack this thread but bison numbers have been maintained for decades now and were the same approximate number back when the deer herds were strong, same with free range cattle.

What HAS changed down there has been very little moisture in both light winters and hot dry summers.
I believe that's when the cattle grazing interferes with the wildlife.

When the habitat is poor, wildlife abortion increases by nature which could help explain the drop in does, which obviously affects recruitment.

We need several more good snowpack years and wet summers to grow all the acorns all over those Oak brush covered mountains.

Just a theory.....

 

[middlefork]

I tend to agree.

But what as hunters can we do to make a difference on the Henries?

What hasn't been tried?

I honestly can't think of anything that hasn't been implemented with all the ideas advocated on here.

It couldn't be simply that less water equals less deer and or smaller racks.

 

[slamdunk]

I tend to agree.

But what as hunters can we do to make a difference on the Henries?

What hasn't been tried?

I honestly can't think of anything that hasn't been implemented with all the ideas advocated on here.

It couldn't be simply that less water equals less deer and or smaller racks.

I honestly don't know what else can be physically or humanly done at this point either, except to not let off on the predator pressure while deer numbers are falling, keep the collaring studies going and pray for several years of moisture.

 

[fullthrottle]

Come on Bessy, that's an easy one.

Henry's deer herd would blow up if you took out the predators. Top end bucks would still get lit up by the masses, but deer numbers would skyrocket if we put a hurt on the predators.

Kill the predators, eventually growing more deer & bucks on the mountain.

Tag cuts isn't going to solve anything on the Henry's.

 

[bucks]

I have not been lion hunting on the Henrys,And I have not seen a lion kill on the unit,I have spent a few days every year in the fall, November watching the bucks rut.
I have for sure watched the quantity, but most of all the Quality,of the bucks going down hill for several years.During the time I have spent on the unit the Coyote population has defiantly increased.
Not saying there are no lions getting there share but I have not seen it.If anyone reading this is a Houndsman that hunts this unit please speak up,Even PM me I would like to know what you are seeing as far as cats go.If anyone has a fix for the struggleing deer herd speak out,Hell I have 24 points probably putting in this year, sure hope they are still there!! It is my opinion that Coyotes are depleting the deer in this unit and most others in the state.

 

[slamdunk]

I have not been lion hunting on the Henrys,And I have not seen a lion kill on the unit,I have spent a few days every year in the fall, November watching the bucks rut.
I have for sure watched the quantity, but most of all the Quality,of the bucks going down hill for several years.During the time I have spent on the unit the Coyote population has defiantly increased.
Not saying there are no lions getting there share but I have not seen it.If anyone reading this is a Houndsman that hunts this unit please speak up,Even PM me I would like to know what you are seeing as far as cats go.If anyone has a fix for the struggleing deer herd speak out,Hell I have 24 points probably putting in this year, sure hope they are still there!! It is my opinion that Coyotes are depleting the deer in this unit and most others in the state.

Lions have been getting removed professionally for the last two years to help the deer.
The same was being done for coyotes over the past several years by helicopter but the man contracted to do it has since passed away and I haven't heard if his work has been replaced yet, but if you're seeing an increase in dogs, then I'd assume not.

 

[notdonhunting]

I was on the Henry's a few days last fall and saw three different set of tracks, all good size lion tracks, with one being verry large Tom track.
One set of tracks was stomped out by a lion hunter.
I ran into the lion hunter a week later after I saw the tracks we visited for a a little while, I mentioned about the tracks and he was disappointed he thought he had stomped them out better than that. He told me that alot of hounds man think the DWR was keeping the numbers down, but he said he has no trouble finding lions to run on the Henry's.

 

[JakeH]

I have not been lion hunting on the Henrys,And I have not seen a lion kill on the unit,I have spent a few days every year in the fall, November watching the bucks rut.
I have for sure watched the quantity, but most of all the Quality,of the bucks going down hill for several years.During the time I have spent on the unit the Coyote population has defiantly increased.
Not saying there are no lions getting there share but I have not seen it.If anyone reading this is a Houndsman that hunts this unit please speak up,Even PM me I would like to know what you are seeing as far as cats go.If anyone has a fix for the struggleing deer herd speak out,Hell I have 24 points probably putting in this year, sure hope they are still there!! It is my opinion that Coyotes are depleting the deer in this unit and most others in the state.

The fix for the struggling deer herd is already happening, this winter will help the herd immensely. Based on what I have read as I don't know the unit personally the deer have enough winter range to get down out of the snow, and the summer range has gotten a lot of snow.

The drought has been the major player in the decline of the henerys the last few years.

Sounds like the coyote's may be having an impact as well, but hopefully they get those back under control. Wish I lived closer I would love to go out and walk a few dozen of them.

 

[notrace]

My bet is this fall the Henries will show its quality infact the best quality for the last 15 years but the numbers will be down.
A lot of the quality is due to moisture the problem with numbers has everything to do with moisture and predators!!

I know some of you will jump my crap but killing bucks on the Henries is not what's hurting the overall numbers. As a unit with that kind of buck to doe ratio the few does there would still get breed if you killed 3/5 of the buckson those mountains.

The older mature deer can't show there potential when there's back to back to back drought!!

I also bet the Paunsaugunt will have its best year for Quality in 10+ years

 

[BrowningRage]

Can anyone give a nutshell response to what a "healthy deer herd" is..?

 

[elkassassin]

I'll List The First Nutshell:

A Healthy Deer Herd Is Not Managed For GREED Or MONEY And Damn Surely Not Managed for a Buck To Doe Ratio!

Can anyone give a nutshell response to what a "healthy deer herd" is..?

 

[slamdunk]

My bet is this fall the Henries will show its quality infact the best quality for the last 15 years but the numbers will be down.
A lot of the quality is due to moisture the problem with numbers has everything to do with moisture and predators!!

I know some of you will jump my crap but killing bucks on the Henries is not what's hurting the overall numbers. As a unit with that kind of buck to doe ratio the few does there would still get breed if you killed 3/5 of the buckson those mountains.

The older mature deer can't show there potential when there's back to back to back drought!!

I also bet the Paunsaugunt will have its best year for Quality in 10+ years

I wouldn't take your bet, because I know you'd win!

 

[elkassassin]

So You're Putting Her In For The Henrie's?

My bet is this fall the Henries will show its quality infact the best quality for the last 15 years but the numbers will be down.
A lot of the quality is due to moisture the problem with numbers has everything to do with moisture and predators!!

I know some of you will jump my crap but killing bucks on the Henries is not what's hurting the overall numbers. As a unit with that kind of buck to doe ratio the few does there would still get breed if you killed 3/5 of the buckson those mountains.

The older mature deer can't show there potential when there's back to back to back drought!!

I also bet the Paunsaugunt will have its best year for Quality in 10+ years

 

[Horsecorn]

I can fix that unit easy. Close it down for 5 years. Seen what it did for the bookcliffs and it wasn’t closed for that long.

 

[slamdunk]

I can fix that unit easy. Close it down for 5 years. Seen what it did for the bookcliffs and it wasn’t closed for that long.

Short term solution, then we're right back to today after a handful of years skimming the cream off the top.
Look at the Books now......not worth even 10 LE points.

 

[Horsecorn]

thats right about he bookcliffs, but for quite a few years after they opened it, it was good. They need to close it again and then open it back up. Short term is better than no term.

 

[elkassassin]

Proper Management & There Wouldn't Have To Be Any Area/Unit Closed!

But How Long Has It Been Since We've Seen That?

 

[Horsecorn]

Agree on proper management but either drought, bad winters, poaching, coyotes, (ufo abductions,) etc have dropped the herd way down, so instead of taking upteen yeas to recover close it for a few and build it back up way quicker. i seen it happen in the books.

 

[elkassassin]

SAD We Gotta Hunt It Down To The Point We Gotta Close It!

But Here The Hell We Are!

Hey Horsecorn?

How Many Bucks Have You Seen In The Book Cliffs For Many Years Now That You'd Consider Shooting?

 

[elkassassin]

When Bucks Are Looked at as Buck$!

JUDAS!

 

[Vanilla]

SAD We Gotta Hunt It Down To The Point We Gotta Close It!

But Here The Hell We Are!

Hey Horsecorn?

How Many Bucks Have You Seen In The Book Cliffs For Many Years Now That You'd Consider Shooting?

Sad you think that unit is how it is because of hunting. You’ll never get it. Ever. That’s sad.

 

[hossblur]

I'll List The First Nutshell:

A Healthy Deer Herd Is Not Managed For GREED Or MONEY And Damn Surely Not Managed for a Buck To Doe Ratio!

Greed?

 

[slamdunk]

The Book Cliffs are crawling with bucks, buck numbers are not the problem.
Does are getting bred just fine out there, it's a genetics issue and always has been.
Aside from the Paunsaugunt, I've never seen a unit with a higher buck to doe ratio than the BC's, it's the antler quality of the mature bucks that hasn't improved in the last 30 years or so.

Talk to anyone that's drawn a tag and the story is the same "lot's of 4 point bucks all basically the same size".

 

[Houndsman77]

The Book Cliffs are crawling with bucks, buck numbers are not the problem.
Does are getting bred just fine out there, it's a genetics issue and always has been.
Aside from the Paunsaugunt, I've never seen a unit with a higher buck to doe ratio than the BC's, it's the antler quality of the mature bucks that hasn't improved in the last 30 years or so.

Talk to anyone that's drawn a tag and the story is the same "lot's of 4 point bucks all basically the same size".

When I hunted bears out in the books 20 years ago there also was big two point every where. Liked like older aged buck just bad genetics.

 

[Shadow]

Elkass, is it just bad management to blame when tags have gone from 200k plus to 80k and the herds continue to decline?

 

[elkassassin]

Not At All!

50+ Reasons Why!

Niller Thinks There Are Only 4 Reasons Why!

WRONG!

Elkass, is it just bad management to blame when tags have gone from 200k plus to 80k and the herds continue to decline?

 

[elkassassin]

Fairly Big 2's & 3's Yes!

That's Usually The Breeding Stock Though!

When I hunted bears out in the books 20 years ago there also was big two point every where. Liked like older aged buck just bad genetics.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Horsecorn?

If You Think Niller Is PISSED About Some People Wanting a Few Tags Cut!

Just Wait Till He See's Your Recommendation on a Closure!

HOLY FRICK!

Agree on proper management but either drought, bad winters, poaching, coyotes, (ufo abductions,) etc have dropped the herd way down, so instead of taking upteen yeas to recover close it for a few and build it back up way quicker. i seen it happen in the books.

 

[Horsecorn]

I’ve only seen two in quit a few years and this one that someone is following around.

 

[Horsecorn]

Well vanilla, a lot of it is because of hunting .4 wheelers, side by sides, guns that shoot 1,000 yards, spotting scopes that look for miles, people that are harassing them all summer. they never did that years ago. Explain to me why, just west of the bookcliffs in hill creek that the deer herd so much better. Explain that one bro. They don’t allow anyone to drive 4wheelers,side x sides and all that other crap.( Best hunting in the state.) I seen what closing the bookcliffs did for the herd in just a few years. I drew an archery tag that first year after it opened and wow it was good. I killed a 32” that year.

 

[Horsecorn]

Ya bobcat, these flat brimmers just don’t have a clue.

 

[Horsecorn]

That’s right slam. I shouldn’t say lots bucks but what is there is basically 22” 4 points and smaller. I disagree on the genetics issue. there was big bucks down there years ago. Just west on the Rez. There are big ones so please explain?

 

[Homer]

20 years of Compound 1080 would fix any deer herd that still exists.....

 

[elkassassin]

That'd Be A Big Help!

But We'd Kill A F'N Magpie In The Process!

20 years of Compound 1080 would fix any deer herd that still exists.....

 

[Horsecorn]

One more thing slam, I don’t need to talk to anyone that’s drawn a tag. I go down there every year I pretty much know what’s shaking. With all the tech. Stuff we have now days and the scouting for months before the hunts and the guides that scout, plus the upteen thousand game cameras out. The cream of the crop is going to get shot. There is your problem plain and simple.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Look at the bar graph shadow, the deer are not declining if you believe the graph.

 

[southernutahhunter]

I meant line graph.

 

[slamdunk]

That’s right slam. I shouldn’t say lots bucks but what is there is basically 22” 4 points and smaller. I disagree on the genetics issue. there was big bucks down there years ago. Just west on the Rez. There are big ones so please explain?

Genetics have always struggled out there, even back when it had an antler restriction.
I'm old enough to remember those days and I hunted it back then and alternated between there and the Henry's.
You are correct in saying the hunting and quality on both units were far better than today after they reopened them, but you are also correct is talking about technology advancements and how it has allowed us to skim the top off.
Any unit can produce a given number of "trophy bucks" but those quality animals cannot be sustained when we are as good as we are today.

Case in point, Antelope Island.
Decent amount of deer on the secluded island, excellent buck to doe ratios, yet two of the biggest bucks get skimmed off every year but the recruitment simply isn't keeping up, even with only two bucks harvested by humans.

Just because a unit has a lot of bucks, doesn't mean they all grow into "Trophies", but you already know that.

Closing a unit is a temporary fix only.
It allows a few bucks out of dozens to reach trophy potential, but quickly diminish as we skim.

 

[slamdunk]

One more thing slam, I don’t need to talk to anyone that’s drawn a tag. I go down there every year I pretty much know what’s shaking. With all the tech. Stuff we have now days and the scouting for months before the hunts and the guides that scout, plus the upteen thousand game cameras out. The cream of the crop is going to get shot. There is your problem plain and simple.

I agree 100% my friend, 100%.

 

[Horsecorn]

slam, but for a long term solution. I think think we are screwed. the good old days won’t be back in my life time or ever.

 

[elkassassin]

FUBAR!

 

[slamdunk]

slam, but for a long term solution. I think think we are screwed. the good old days won’t be back in my life time or ever.

I hate to agree with you, but unfortunately I have to.

Can it be better?
Yes
Will it ever be where it was?
No
Will it improve across the state?
I still have faith.

Here's another fact, case in point.
I used to archery hunt the Henry's when it had a 3 point antler restriction.
We would see very hunters and it felt like we had the entire unit to ourselves.
This was back when there were 200+k tags for GS deer!!
Now we have 90k, limited tags and a 180 deer is a top end buck.

Tags have been cut dramatically on both those units (used to be GS) and quality has tanked.

In 2020, one single archery buck killed was 200", everything else was under on muzzleloader and rifle.
And that was with the best guides and Outfitters in the state all over that unit.

Yes we are obviously skimming, but there's a much bigger piece of the puzzle being missed.

Moisture/habitat are more critical than most realize.

 

[Horsecorn]

I’m sure that plays into it. The problem is I have tried on drought years to do a rain dance and burn some sage, but I must be doing something wrong cause it hasn’t worked

 

[slamdunk]

I’m sure that plays into it. The problem is I have tried on drought years to do a rain dance and burn some sage, but I must be doing something wrong cause it hasn’t worked

Acorns on oak.
When we see that, you'll see bigger bucks, but it takes moisture and a lot of it.

 

[JakeH]

Genetics have always struggled out there, even back when it had an antler restriction.
I'm old enough to remember those days and I hunted it back then and alternated between there and the Henry's.
You are correct in saying the hunting and quality on both units were far better than today after they reopened them, but you are also correct is talking about technology advancements and how it has allowed us to skim the top off.
Any unit can produce a given number of "trophy bucks" but those quality animals cannot be sustained when we are as good as we are today.

Case in point, Antelope Island.
Decent amount of deer on the secluded island, excellent buck to doe ratios, yet two of the biggest bucks get skimmed off every year but the recruitment simply isn't keeping up, even with only two bucks harvested by humans.

Just because a unit has a lot of bucks, doesn't mean they all grow into "Trophies", but you already know that.

Closing a unit is a temporary fix only.
It allows a few bucks out of dozens to reach trophy potential, but quickly diminish as we skim.

Slam you really believe that 2 deer a year is why the island deer are getting smaller? Come on man give me a break. There is obviously something else contributing.

And can we truly say they are getting smaller? They are still claiming that buck killed thos year was 240 (I dont believe it, but that's what they claim) there was a 250 buck killed back in '18 and a 240 killed in '19.

To go through and look at all the bucks killed since the beginning this year is the only time I would be like yeah not quite what it used to be.

It truly amazes me that guys think two bucks a year is causing a slip in the trophy potential on the island.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam you really believe that 2 deer a year is why the island deer are getting smaller? Come on man give me a break. There is obviously something else contributing.

And can we truly say they are getting smaller? They are still claiming that buck killed thos year was 240 (I dont believe it, but that's what they claim) there was a 250 buck killed back in '18 and a 240 killed in '19.

To go through and look at all the bucks killed since the beginning this year is the only time I would be like yeah not quite what it used to be.

It truly amazes me that guys think two bucks a year is causing a slip in the trophy potential on the island.

You completely missed my point Jake!

I'm saying that island is small, herd is healthy, we are taking two bucks a year, but they are ALWAYS the two best, and yet the quality has unarguablly decreased.
Look at the bucks taken off that rock pile by Denny Austad in the first consecutive handful of years compared to the last few.
And you're right, that best buck last year wasn't even close to 240, but no one disputed it due to the awesome way the tag was donated.

People who think giant bucks just grow with age don't have a clue of reality.

It takes genetics #1, then the perfect storm to get them there.

Having said that, the Books are full of bucks, relatively healthy numbers but 140" mature bucks everywhere.
When and wherever there is a trophy buck, it's number is up.

 

[elkassassin]

When 50+ Reasons Why Is Comprehended You Boys Might Eventually See It!

Most People Blame 3-4 Reasons Why Just Like The KING!

 

[Horsecorn]

i agree with slam about the island. But it’s everywhere. for sure not every buck will grow to be 30” plus with extras, But I think that is mostly everywhere in the west. Genetics I think is there in the books cause like I said go look on the Rez. Right next to the books and it’s a whole different game. I think the reason southern Utah’s deer are bigger is the winters are not as bad so they start out in the spring in better shape so bam the growth can go to the horns (antlers i mean for you flat brimmers.) better than in the northern areas. Technology and the way we hunt now days take the cream of the crop every years so ya all you’re going to see is small pissy ant bucks mostly. Got to leave them alone and not shoot so many to get big ones. That’s not going to happen so here we are. thats why on the rez. bucks are so much better. They don’t shoot the sh-t out of them.

 

[hossblur]

The AI discussion is fascinating. Based on the small size, and the massive amount of money "for conservation", you'd think the island would be the hands down greatest deer producer in the world. Yet, as slam pointed out, there has been a drop off.

I think it is genetics, and from the hunting.

It's a small gene pool, to start with. There's the pool of mainframe bucks, and the one with extras.

Before the island was "saved" by $fw, and started charging $15 a trip out, I would take my boys out quite a bit. After awhile you could pic out son's. There wasn't much variety in type, just in size.

By whacking the best bucks on the island yearly, I do think there was a culling of what little difference genetically there was, and that secret sauce that separates big bucks and super big bucks, may have been affected.

Also. The competition on the island for breeding is pretty massive. Interestingly enough, the last few years there are bucks in town with that distinct variable point genetics. I think some of the big bucks, walked off the island, and took variability in their genes with them.

Not sure how that applies to the Henry's, I've not been there much, but I do think you can stagnate size by whacking the very best each year.

Or in short.

I'm 6'5. My brother is 6'2. Same genes. Same childhood. Same diet as kids. I obviously have the special sauce(yup, I said it). Why is that? What creates that? I think that unknown, is what gets taken out of the genetics by trophy hunting on marginal areas.

 

[Vanilla]

When 50+ Reasons Why Is Comprehended You Boys Might Eventually See It!

Most People Blame 3-4 Reasons Why Just Like The KING!

Yet all you do is ever blame hunters because you’re anti-hunting. You can’t kill something, so nobody should be able to. That is Bessy’s world.

I laugh at all this doom and gloom about the Books. Have a good friend that pulled a tag in the last 3 hunting seasons and his pictures from scouting and the success of three different hunters in his group tell a very different story. “But by golly, if I don’t see em they ain’t there!!!” It has to be hunters. That’s the only explanation for the feeble minds that hate other hunters and their success.

We should just end hunting in this state once and for all so a handful of “hunters” on here will finally be happy and they can go to bi…ing about something else in their lives to ruin.

 

[JakeH]

The AI discussion is fascinating. Based on the small size, and the massive amount of money "for conservation", you'd think the island would be the hands down greatest deer producer in the world. Yet, as slam pointed out, there has been a drop off.

I think it is genetics, and from the hunting.

It's a small gene pool, to start with. There's the pool of mainframe bucks, and the one with extras.

Before the island was "saved" by $fw, and started charging $15 a trip out, I would take my boys out quite a bit. After awhile you could pic out son's. There wasn't much variety in type, just in size.

By whacking the best bucks on the island yearly, I do think there was a culling of what little difference genetically there was, and that secret sauce that separates big bucks and super big bucks, may have been affected.

Also. The competition on the island for breeding is pretty massive. Interestingly enough, the last few years there are bucks in town with that distinct variable point genetics. I think some of the big bucks, walked off the island, and took variability in their genes with them.

Not sure how that applies to the Henry's, I've not been there much, but I do think you can stagnate size by whacking the very best each year.

Or in short.

I'm 6'5. My brother is 6'2. Same genes. Same childhood. Same diet as kids. I obviously have the special sauce(yup, I said it). Why is that? What creates that? I think that unknown, is what gets taken out of the genetics by trophy hunting on marginal areas.

You are leaving out one extremely important part of the equation..... the Doe!!! The genetic is not gone from the island. Tell me how has the oak creek started popping off with the exact same antler characteristics that the island had? They transplanted a bunch of does several years ago over there. And they have killed a few bucks the last couple years that have the same look as the island deer.

Your 6'5" and your brother is 6'2" if I had to take a guess your brother is older than you isn't he? You both have the exact same genetics, only nature can explain why you had a difference. I don't think that makes the point you think it does.

If you really want my opinion on the island the down grade probably has a lot more to do with the massive fire from a few years ago combined with the historic drought we have been in. Just like the henerys the whole population of deer has fallen on the island why is that?

To me it is laughable to claim its because they shoot two bucks off of it each year.

 

[JakeH]

You completely missed my point Jake!

I'm saying that island is small, herd is healthy, we are taking two bucks a year, but they are ALWAYS the two best, and yet the quality has unarguablly decreased.
Look at the bucks taken off that rock pile by Denny Austad in the first consecutive handful of years compared to the last few.
And you're right, that best buck last year wasn't even close to 240, but no one disputed it due to the awesome way the tag was donated.

People who think giant bucks just grow with age don't have a clue of reality.

It takes genetics #1, then the perfect storm to get them there.

Having said that, the Books are full of bucks, relatively healthy numbers but 140" mature bucks everywhere.
When and wherever there is a trophy buck, it's number is up.

Is the herd healthy? I'm pretty sure they have seen a significant drop in population just like the henerys have.

And the first deer Denny killed was like 270, that is the only deer that has been that big. The first year the two bucks killed didn't even approach that they was both 240s type deer. There have been several deer killed in recent years that are just as big as the two deer killed the first year. The second year a 270, and a 250 was killed, both we're bigger than the two bucks from the previous year, that was the year Colorado Buck was involved somehow on the public tag.

The year wade lemon helped the draw hunter they killed a 250 buck.

My point is the genetics are not gone off the island, and you have to have the perfect conditions for one to really pop off and grow huge. If that wasn't the case they should have killed the biggest bucks the first year.

 

[Tikka]

20 years of Compound 1080 would fix any deer herd that still exists.....

Bingo!

 

[hossblur]

You are leaving out one extremely important part of the equation..... the Doe!!! The genetic is not gone from the island. Tell me how has the oak creek started popping off with the exact same antler characteristics that the island had? They transplanted a bunch of does several years ago over there. And they have killed a few bucks the last couple years that have the same look as the island deer.

Your 6'5" and your brother is 6'2" if I had to take a guess your brother is older than you isn't he? You both have the exact same genetics, only nature can explain why you had a difference. I don't think that makes the point you think it does.

If you really want my opinion on the island the down grade probably has a lot more to do with the massive fire from a few years ago combined with the historic drought we have been in. Just like the henerys the whole population of deer has fallen on the island why is that?

To me it is laughable to claim its because they shoot two bucks off of it each year.

I'm the oldest.

Never set foot on Oak Creeks so I can't comment with first hand knowledge.

But I can comment on AI.

It burns nearly every year. The water sources are largely troughs, not affected by drought.

You are correct does do play a part. But unlike areas you talk about, AI is largely a closed system. I doubt highly bucks wander off the front, cross Davis county, to walk 9 miles to try and breed a doe.

They do walk off the island to breed the town does.

It would be really cool if genetic tests were run on all the bucks killed, I bet you could trace them to a couple of lines.

Super big bucks, could, and I believe are, genetic mutants. The small herd size there, combined with small genetic lines, means very few mutants(simple math equation).

Killing off the mutants, still leaves big buck genetics, but the freaks of nature, don't pass their stuff on, which in time, stagnates the herd.

I think Deseret has discussed the same issues with their elk herds. Tons of really big bulls, but very few if any true monsters.

The Pauns, because it's a large migratory herd, doesn't get stagnated the same way, IMO


I can't prove anything, but with AI, it's easier to see, because you do see the same bucks, over and over, and year to year

 

[slamdunk]

Is the herd healthy? I'm pretty sure they have seen a significant drop in population just like the henerys have.

And the first deer Denny killed was like 270, that is the only deer that has been that big. The first year the two bucks killed didn't even approach that they was both 240s type deer. There have been several deer killed in recent years that are just as big as the two deer killed the first year. The second year a 270, and a 250 was killed, both we're bigger than the two bucks from the previous year, that was the year Colorado Buck was involved somehow on the public tag.

The year wade lemon helped the draw hunter they killed a 250 buck.

My point is the genetics are not gone off the island, and you have to have the perfect conditions for one to really pop off and grow huge. If that wasn't the case they should have killed the biggest bucks the first year.

I agree about genetics not being gone, those genetics never just disappear.

My point is that it takes a perfect scenario to grow bucks of full potential, and in a herd as small as AI's, there are only a few bucks that can hit those mid 200's out of the only dozens that are out there.

As with @Horsecorn comment, shut the hunting down out there for a couple years and you'll see a few bucks hit full potential.
Reintroduce the two tags and watch the cream get skimmed off again after a few years following.
We've Seen It on numerous units already.

It's a rarity to grow at 220+ buck, and it takes a heck of a lot more than just age to do it.

Recruitment simply doesn't keep up to today's demands for trophy bucks.

This issue is also the catalyst for emerging technologies to improve our abilities find and harvest the best available "Trophy" animals.

 

[slamdunk]

i agree with slam about the island. But it’s everywhere. for sure not every buck will grow to be 30” plus with extras, But I think that is mostly everywhere in the west. Genetics I think is there in the books cause like I said go look on the Rez. Right next to the books and it’s a whole different game. I think the reason southern Utah’s deer are bigger is the winters are not as bad so they start out in the spring in better shape so bam the growth can go to the horns (antlers i mean for you flat brimmers.) better than in the northern areas. Technology and the way we hunt now days take the cream of the crop every years so ya all you’re going to see is small pissy ant bucks mostly. Got to leave them alone and not shoot so many to get big ones. That’s not going to happen so here we are. thats why on the rez. bucks are so much better. They don’t shoot the sh-t out of them.

Bingo!

 

[Vanilla]

So Slam, it is the trophy hunters, not the opportunists like Whoopi says?

Oh boy…here we go!!!

 

[slamdunk]

So Slam, it is the trophy hunters, not the opportunists like Whoopi says?

Oh boy…here we go!!!

I believe it's a combination of things, but yes there is an undeniably higher demand for trophy quality bucks today than even 10 short years ago.

Sure we've cut 120k tags since 1995, but we are better killers.

As quality declines, technology improves, we hunt harder and smarter and nothing gets out alive.

With the help from Mother Nature, hopefully we'll get consecutive years of moisture and improvements in both summer habitat and winter range resulting in better fawn crops and recruitment.

 

[Vanilla]

And here comes Whoopi saying you only believe it’s 3 to 4 things when he’s only ever identifying one in 3….2….1…

 

[slamdunk]

And here comes Whoopi saying you only believe it’s 3 to 4 things when he’s only ever identifying one in 3….2….1…

Lol.....well I am only trying to focus my comments on the bucks more than overall herd numbers

 

[elkassassin]

Your F'N Memory Is Way Worse Than Mine!

Do I Need To Re-Post HELL-F'N-RIGHT For You Again?

I Think Horsecorn has The Only Answer That'll Help!

Close Em!

The KING Ain't Gonna Like It Though!

And here comes Whoopi saying you only believe it’s 3 to 4 things when he’s only ever identifying one in 3….2….1…

 

[elkassassin]

The KING Doesn't Like cutting Tags!

Wait Till They Start Closing Units/Areas Again!

Don't Tell Me It Can't Happen!

I've Seen It F'N Happen!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey KING!

Read Post # 42!

 

[Vanilla]

I’m just glad you’re finally addressing by my proper title, Whoopi. I, in turn, have started addressing you by yours.

 

[slamdunk]

Your F'N Memory Is Way Worse Than Mine!

Do I Need To Re-Post HELL-F'N-RIGHT For You Again?

I Think Horsecorn has The Only Answer That'll Help!

Close Em!

The KING Ain't Gonna Like It Though!

We know closing is a short term bandaid, but what's the long term fix after the short term expires?

 

[Horsecorn]

I don’t think there is a long term fix because of what I previously said. maybe the trail cam ban will help a little so that every body won’t know exactly where all the good ones are. It just could help a little.

 

[Horsecorn]

I have a question. How many bucks on the island are dying of old age?

 

[slamdunk]

I have a question. How many bucks on the island are dying of old age?

I've often wondered that myself, it's most definitely happening.

I know for fact they kill the best two bucks every year, but that doesn't mean they are the oldest of course.

 

[elkassassin]

It'd Be Really F'N Bad If One Big Game Animal Died Of Old Age!

The KING Would Want 50,000 More Tags If That Happened!

 

[Vanilla]

50,002 Island tags?

Sounds about right. Let’s do it!

 

[elkassassin]

You'd Help Pound It Out In 5 Minutes But At Least You Could Say You Had Your Opportunity!

 

[Vanilla]

Shotgun start. Hire Hushin to video the whole thing and do live Vlogs. Maybe let WLH back on the island to guide one of the lucky 50,002 hunters.

I really like where you’re going with this Whoopi. All fantastic ideas you’ve had, and let me tell ya, I’m here for it! I’ll call Casey Snider now and plug the idea. I’ll give you full credit, don’t worry!

Still waiting for your balls to drop so you can give us your big ideas on fixing the Henry’s, since you know all the answers. I think I’ve been patient enough and it’s time. Time to put up or shut up Whoopi.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey KING Niller!

I Suggested Cutting a Few Tags!

The DWR Had Already Cut A Few Tags & I didn't Know it Until JakeH Posted It!

Are You As Mad At The DWR For Cutting Tags as You Are At Me For Suggesting it?

In Your Eyes It's OK For The DWR To Cut Tags But BY GAWD If I Suggest It You Throw One Of Your Tantrums!

Another Question KING:

You Don't Wanna Cut Any Tags Unless it's The DWR's Idea To Cut Them!

What's Your BrainStorm On How To Raise The Age Class/Quality of The Bucks So Some Of These Guy's That Have Waited 25+ Years Might Have A Chance at a Decent Buck?

I've Told You Many Times We Need DEER NUMBERS!

Not None of Your BS Buck To Doe Ratio Management!

Your 3-4 Things You List Ain't Enough To Fix It!

But Like I Said!

Keep Poundin The PISSCUTTERS,That'll Fix It!

Shotgun start. Hire Hushin to video the whole thing and do live Vlogs. Maybe let WLH back on the island to guide one of the lucky 50,002 hunters.

I really like where you’re going with this Whoopi. All fantastic ideas you’ve had, and let me tell ya, I’m here for it! I’ll call Casey Snider now and plug the idea. I’ll give you full credit, don’t worry!

Still waiting for your balls to drop so you can give us your big ideas on fixing the Henry’s, since you know all the answers. I think I’ve been patient enough and it’s time. Time to put up or shut up Whoopi.

 

[Vanilla]

chicken…

 

[elkassassin]

Once again!

You Don't & Won't Answer!

chicken…

 

[elkassassin]

Did you read post # 41 & #42?

But Since You're KING!

Clue Us In How We Could Do It again When You Might Kill a Crow or Maybe a Magpie?

chicken…

 

[slamdunk]

Unfortunately "Deer Numbers" don't come from cutting tags.

Sure we can cut 10 tags and prolong 10 bucks lives temporarily, but saving those bucks is NOT going to improve the herd numbers whatsoever, sorry.

 

[Horsecorn]

No but closing a unit will make a difference in short order. I’ve seen it happen.

 

[slamdunk]

No but closing a unit will make a difference in short order. I’ve seen it happen.

But what does this solve other than 5 years of happy hunters?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey PUNK!

I Never Said It Would!

But Let's Say You Had 25 Points!

You Pulled a Henrie's Tag!

You Shootin A Buck Worth 25 Years Of Your Life?

Wasn't But a Few Years Back You Could Have!

You Admit Yourself The Cream Is Skimmed Every Year!

The DWR Cut A Few Tags Before I Even Suggested It!

I Don't See One Of You PISSED At The DWR!

But When I Mentioned it.......................!

How Else You Gonna Raise The Quality On a Few Bucks In a Timely Manner?

Remember: Bucks Don't Have Fawns!

We Could Use Horsecorns Advice & Just Close It!

That'll PISS The KING Off!

I Only Suggested Cutting A Few Tags In Hopes Of Raising The Quality a Little For Guys Wanting/Hoping To Someday Have A Chance at a Decent Buck!

The DWR Beat Me To It & They Had Already Cut A Few Tags That I Didn't Even Know About Until JakeH Posted It!

Homer Mentioned the 1080 which I Agree With It!

But How You Gonna Use It Without Killing a F'N Tweety Bird that Some GREENIE Would Scream about?

Unfortunately "Deer Numbers" don't come from cutting tags.

Sure we can cut 10 tags and prolong 10 bucks lives temporarily, but saving those bucks is NOT going to improve the herd numbers whatsoever, sorry.

 

[elkassassin]

If It Was Managed Properly It Wouldn't Have To Be Closed!

But what does this solve other than 5 years of happy hunters?

 

[elkassassin]

I'm Gonna Say It Again!

It's FUBAR!

Anybody Need Me To SPLAIN It Again?

 

[elkassassin]

If Several Of These Units Keep Going In The Direction They're Going Horsecorns Closure Will Be The Only Way!

Don't Tell Me It Can't Happen!

Some Of Us Have Seen It Happen!

 

[Airborne]

Hey Elkass--I'm gonna ask you a few very basic questions, let's see if you can be honest and answer them in one to two word answers:

What is your favorite color?

What is your favorite professional sports team?

Have you drawn a Utah Limited Entry permit within the last 5 years? Yes or No

If the answer above is yes, what species did you draw?

What Unit did you draw?

Did you harvest an animal on your LE hunt?

What would you rate your LE hunt from 1 to 5?

These are really easy questions buddy, keep in mind I probably know the answers to some of these so please be honest. You are welcome to ignore me if you want, but it will be very telling. The only reason I am doing this is because Niller asked you a basic question and you ducked it as you generally do. This is objective and basic. You can earn a lot of credibility here or lose it. Your choice.

 

[Horsecorn]

It solves Just like you said, 5 years of happy hunters. Instead of disappointed hunters every year. better than a kick in the nuggets.

 

[slamdunk]

If It Was Managed Properly It Wouldn't Have To Be Closed!

Define "properly", I would love to see that unit flourish as much as you.

 

[slamdunk]

It solves Just like you said, 5 years of happy hunters. Instead of disappointed hunters every year. better than a kick in the nuggets.

But isn't that just a vicious circle?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Elkass--I'm gonna ask you a few very basic questions, let's see if you can be honest and answer them in one to two word answers:

What is your favorite color?

GEEZUS Does This Deserve An Answer?
Red Flannel!

What is your favorite professional sports team?

I Don't Have A Favorite Pro Sports Team!
If It Ain't NASCAR It Ain't Worth Watching!

Have you drawn a Utah Limited Entry permit within the last 5 years? Yes or No

I've Drawn a Few LE Permits,Yes!

Turned One Back!

If the answer above is yes, what species did you draw?

A Couple Different Species!

What Unit did you draw?

Drawn in a Few Units!

Did you harvest an animal on your LE hunt?

I Did Harvest One And Ate A Tag on another Hunt!

What would you rate your LE hunt from 1 to 5?

I Can't Rate them! (((Remember,I Don't Hunt according to other MM'ERS So It Must Be True!)))
But Most LE Units Both Elk & Deer Ain't Nothin Even Close To What They Were A Few years Back!

These are really easy questions buddy, keep in mind I probably know the answers to some of these so please be honest. You are welcome to ignore me if you want, but it will be very telling. The only reason I am doing this is because Niller asked you a basic question and you ducked it as you generally do. This is objective and basic. You can earn a lot of credibility here or lose it. Your choice.

Nillers Been Given The Answer Many Times!

It's FUBAR,You Understand That?

Most Hunters Wanna Try One Thing,HINT:One Thing Ain't Gonna Fix Sshhitt Unless We Use Horsecorns CLOSURE!

Niller The KING won't Listen & He's More Hard Headed Than Myself!

I've Asked Niller A Certain Question Many Of Times,Did I Get An Answer From Him?

In Nillers Mind He's Gonna Make 3 Changes & Save The Mule Deer Herd! WRONG!

He's Not Even Close To How Many Changes It Would Take To Turn it Around And It Might Be Too Late!

Just Keep The Current Management going & Horsecorns Closure Will Be The Only F'N Way!

 

[elkassassin]

Gonna Tell You One More Thing RG!

I Don't Care Rather I Take Another Big Game Animal Of Any Kind!

But I'd Sure Like To See My Grandkids,Your Grandkids,My Family & Friends Grandkids Have a Chance at Some Decent Hunting But It Ain't Looking Too Good For Them!

 

[JB1975]

Gonna Tell You One More Thing RG!

I Don't Care Rather I Take Another Big Game Animal Of Any Kind!

But I'd Sure Like To See My Grandkids,Your Grandkids,My Family & Friends Grandkids Have a Chance at Some Decent Hunting But It Ain't Looking Too Good For Them!

You still weren’t clear on your answers.

 

[elkassassin]

Just FYI!

I Don't IG!

I Don't BRAGG On Animals Harvested!

I Don't Post Pictures All Over The F'N Internet!

I Don't do The YouTube BS!

And I'm Not About To Start Now!

You still weren’t clear on your answers.

 

[elkassassin]

Can I Ask What Color Your Wifes Hair Is?

You still weren’t clear on your answers.