Bring back the 3 point or better rule?

[Dr_Hunter]

I thought that I would just throw out the idea of the old 3-point or better restriction for the deer hunt in Utah?
It seems like back then the deer herd was bigger and had better size bucks. I remember seeing just as many bucks as I did does. Nowadays, I work my tail off just to see a 4 point barely at 22". I am just sick of driving home after the deer hunt and seeing all of these little spikes and 2-points in the back of every truck.
Does anybody else agree that this could be one method that could help increase the buck to doe numbers?
Is their anyway we could bring it back?

 

[bobcatbess]

WELL JOHN!!!

ITS A GREAT IDEA!!!

IT WILL EVEN WORK WITH PROPER MANAGEMENT!!!

THERES A LAW THAT NEEDS TO BE IN EFFECT WHEN YOU MAKE IT A 3 POINT OR BETTER UNIT!!!

ANYONE CAUGHT SHOOTING DINKS & WASTING WILDLIFE BECAUSE THEY GOT TRIGGER HAPPY & JUST COULDN'T TAKE TIME TO COUNT POINTS WILL SUFFER WITH THE CONSEQUENCES WHICH WILL BE A MANDATORY 100,000.00 FINE,LOSS OF THEIR VEHICLE,LOSS OF THEIR LOWLIFE QUAD,LOSS OF ALL HUNTING EQUIPMENT,LOSS OF THEIR RIFLES AND THEIR HUNTING RIGHTS REVOKED FOR LIFE & CHARGED WITH A MANDATORY FELONY!!!

GET THAT LAW IN TO EFFECT & I'M ALL FOR IT!!!

SEEN THE 3 POINT OR BETTER BULLSHIT WITH MY OWN EYES IN THE BOOK CLIFFS & I CAN TELL YOU IT DIDN'T WORK THANKS TO A BUNCH OF LOWLIFE TARDS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[everbrownshed]

I agree with ya 100%. And its gonna get worse now that 12 year olds will be able to hunt big game. What do you think they will most likely be killing, big mature bucks or the first buck they see with a set of nuts and five inch antlers. Gotta sell more tags though right?

 

[slamdunk]

I agree with you guys on this for the most part, i have brought this same topic up many times on here and it gets driven down by most, and granted, some if it was actually starting to make a little sense.

They say (arm chair biologists, much like myself) say the antler restriction doesn't work because you are taking out all the good breeder bucks with the good genetics. This still makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
My genes haven't changed from my time at conception, so why does a deer's??

And the excuse that too many people still shot 2 points in 3 point or better area's?
My Godfrey, look how many are shot now!! It doesn't take an educated biologist to figure THAT one out!!

And if the ones that were actually shot and left too rot are considered "wasted"?
I'm sure that actually saved a few live & healthy ones from getting attacked and killed by predators!

Also, they say that hunter numbers have actually fallen?
So how can we be shooting out the bigger bucks more so today than back in the 80's when we had point restrictions if there are less hunters?

But what the h*ll do i know, i'll just go back to reading all the post's of 400" plus bulls being whacked by the army.



Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[Dr_Hunter]

The genetics does makes sense to an extent, but nature will still take it's course and natural selection takes over. For example, you look at the elk and how their is always the big herd bull with his cows and then the satellite bulls hang out on the outskirts. Why wouldn't the same thing happen with the deer? Furthermore, for us to be able to know if they have good breeding genes they need to get BIGGER.

However it is a way for the DWR to make more money and sell more tags. But why not only allow the 12-16 yr. old's shoot something smaller than a 3-point? Boy that's a scary thought-a 12 yr. old with a gun.

I do recall seeing lots of 2-points killed and left in the past, but I still think it would be a better idea than what is going on today.

 

[slamdunk]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-22-07 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]Genetics don't change with age, a future world record bull still has those gene's as a spike bull too when he ever would become a 445" net hawg.
The age thing and how many cows he has, only has to do with his maturity. Not only to him, but to what the "willing" cows think of him. Also, the bigger more mature bulls can breed more than
a younger bull can. Therefore the older bulls get more cows.

(Hey wait a minute!! Why then with humans do the women like younger guys....WTF???)


Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[everbrownshed]

Yeah, its probably not the size of bucks gettting killed, its that a shatload of bucks are getting killed more than anything. It probably is better to have the big mature bucks spreadin the seed. I'd say less tags and definitly no 12 year olds would help a little. (No offense 12 year olds, just go play little league and wait it out a few more years.)

 

[mgstokes]

hunted the book cliffs years ago when it was 3 pts. or better. found 3 dead 2 pts. one year aned saw another 2 pt. with a broken jaw just hanging down. I'm sure he died. It might work if hunters would obey the laws but they don't. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Dr_Hunter]

Today was opening day of the muzzleloader. I saw 8 two points 2 spikes, 2 3-points and passed up 2 smaller 4-points. The bigger one never showed up. I wonder how many of these bucks will be killed this year. This year has started off so far on the right foot here in Cedar City.

 

[denzdye]

I agree with you guys, somthing has to be done. This year on the Muzzleloader was the worst I have seen. No bucks at all and the ones that I did see were the barely legal spikes being paraded around on the back of tailgates. I was thinking about this all week. What if you allowed the 12-18 year olds to harvest any buck and then for the older guys and gals if you wanted to kill the piss cutters you could pay an additional 10-15 dollars per tag and us guys with patience would get a three point or better tag at a reduced rate. And also what does everyone feel about micro manageing the units, with the possibility of having a few select units any buck and also some units four point or better that way we could watch a few different plans and see how they work.Just my opinion guys what do you think?

 

[proutdoors]

Umm, the lame statement about MORE tags being sold with the 12 year olds being able to hunt, well it is..... LAME. The DWR didn't increase the number of tags issued by even one. Pay attention before piping off.

As for the three-point or better, I have mixed feelings on this. If implemented,, would it discourage some from hunting? If there are really that many idiots that shoot first and verify later, does it matter what regulations are in play? And, should these idiots be allowed to hunt ANYTHING? EVER? I do NOT buy into the genetic arguement, I have read numerous studies about how they have a hard time 'culling' genetics out of herds that are high-fenced and 'controlled', I seriously doubt a regulation like 3-point or better would affect the gene pool in any way. If done right, I believe there would be more older bucks in the mix if that is the desired outcome. I do NOT, however, want to see deer managed like the elk, where only a very small percentage of people would benefit from the management plan implemented. I see 180+ bucks every year on public land on general areas. They are there, one just needs to HUNT for them.

PRO

 

[studman1971]

I know you will all think I am crazy, but my idea - which the dwr would never do because of financial reasons - is to make the deer hunt a spike only unit. I remember the fishlake elk were few and far between as far as big bulls go. They made it a spike only unit for a few years and then started the LE hunts. It made a huge difference. Now the majority of bulls that I see on that unit are mature bulls. I know that this will not set pretty with most of you, but they did the 3 point or better already and it didn't really work. In my opinion, no sense in trying it again.

 

[slamdunk]

Studman say's-
"I know you will all think I am crazy, but my idea - which the dwr would never do because of financial reasons - is to make the deer hunt a spike only unit."

Studman, you are totally off your rocker!!
The reason the F&G wouldn't ever make a deer unit a "spike only" has nothing to do with finacial reason's!
It' just wouldn't work, not to mention it would totally kill all the deer hunting. I sure as heck wouldn't buy a spike deer tag, and i'm sure there are about 20,000 other's that wouldn't either!!

Deer are not elk, nor could you ever manage them the same way!

Like pro mentioned, "culling doesn't work"...period.
We used to do some management elk hunts on a couple leases we have and you simply cannot stop or even slow down a bad gene.....it's in the cows too and they all look the same, so you can't "cull" them out either.





Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[bobcatbess]

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

HEY studman!!!

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

BASICALLY THATS WHAT WE HAVE NOW FOR THE MOST PART IS A PISSCUTTER (SPIKE!!!) HUNT IN THE GENERAL REGIONS!!!

IS IT WORKING???

HELL NO IT AIN'T!!!

WILL IT EVER WORK???

HELL NO!!!

THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY THE DEER HERD IS IN PISS POOR SHAPE!!!

YOU CAN'T HAVE 5-6 MONTHS WORTH OF PRESSURE ON BIG GAME HERDS & EXPECT MIRACLES!!!

NOT EVERY TARD IN THE STATE CAN HUNT EVERY YEAR & EXPECT TROPHY SIZE BUCKS ON A YEARLY BASIS!!!

THE ROAD KILL NUMBERS ARE BEYOND BELIEF!!!(I GOT MY FIRST DEER WITH THE GRILL THIS YEAR!!!)

I'VE NOTICED A BIG INCREASE IN COYOTES THIS YEAR!!!(THIS AIN'T GONNA HELP!!!)

THE POACHING IS OUT OF HAND!!!

EVEN WHEN A BIG BUCK/BULL IS SPOTTED THE ANIMAL DOESN'T STAND A CHANCE!!!

TOO MUCH GREED & MONEY AROUND!!!

THE LIST GOES ON FOREVER!!!

I COULD LIST 100 THINGS THAT NEED DONE!!!

I JUST DON'T SEE DRASTIC ENOUGH CHANGES BEING MADE TO IMPROVE THE DEER HERD SITUATION!!!

IT WOULD TAKE SUCH A DRASTIC CHANGE THAT 1/2 OF YOU WOULDN'T BE HUNTING EVERY YEAR!!!

THAT OUGHT TO PISS EVERYBODY OFF!!!

I'M SIGNING OFF!!!

FIRE AWAY BOYS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Bess-
Speaking of coyote's, just got back from the Book's and i have never seen so many song dog's in my life....even let the air out of a couple!! They came into our camp every night like pet's!
Kill 'em all!!






Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

HEY slamdunk!!!

I SPENT A LITTLE TIME IN AN LE UNIT RECENTLY & I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT MANY DOGS!!!

I ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT SHOOTING A HIGH MOUNTAIN DOG THIS LAST SUNDAY WITH MY MUZZ BUT THEN I GOT TO THINKING I DON'T #### AROUND WHILE HUNTING!!!

I'LL LET OTHER TARDS DO THAT!!!

SO slam????

WHAT'D YOU GET???

PM ME IF YOU WANT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Bess-
Well it's kind of a long story, but i'll make it short as possible. My son passed on more four points in five days than i have ever had chances at in my 20+ years of hunting, they were everywhere....but small and young. We just knew that when seeing that many, that size, we'd eventually come across something better.....not the case.
So when we went back at "crunch time" to find some of those "passers". Well everyone else had killed them off.
So, my son said he was going to take the first "descent" buck we saw on our last day. A three point made a mistake and crossed our path and my son turned that buck's light's out.
We weren't too dissapointed because he COULD have gotten something better, but we WERE disappointed that we didn't see what we thought we would. It was a great hunt though, we also put a small dent in the coyote population during the day and ate all the canned stew we could handle for six days.

And triplek even let us stay in her campground while we were out there, that way she knew we'd keep it clean and not make a mess of "her mountain"! ;-)









Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

HEY slam!!!

TELL slam JR GREAT JOB!!!

I'VE HUNTED OUT THERE & KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!!!

I'VE SEEN ALOT OF DECENT BUCKS PASSED UPON THE FIRST TWO DAYS BUT BY DAY THREE THEY START HAMMERING EVERYTHING!!!

JUST SEEING ALOT OF BUCKS MAKES IT A GOOD HUNT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Thanx bess, we had a bawl even though we didn't get what we really wanted. We hunted from McCook ridge clear to Steer ridge over and over again, and everything in between. Saw some breath taking country, met some great people and even found a couple lost lion hounds from some guy in your town.
The tag was a "gimme" from the convention in Salt Lake, so it wasn't like we wasted the 9 years it takes to actually draw it.
The hunt was a sucess all around.



Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

HEY slam!!!

WHO'S HOUNDS WERE THEY???

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

The tag said "Bruce Horrocks" on their collars, and they each had their ears bleached with an "H" in them like a brand.
I called the guy and left a message, but he's never called me back....i suppose he found them. They had all kinds of crazy fancy collars with antenna's and tracking devices on them, so i'm sure he's got them by now.
They wandered into our camp down on Seep Ridge road in the "Eagle scout project campground" saturday morning while we were packing up.




Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

"EAGLE SCOUT PROJECT CAMPGROUND"!!!

HMMM???

THAT MIGHT QUALIFY FOR A NATIONAL DISASTER AREA!!!

BETTER ENJOY THE BOOK CLIFFS WHILE YOU CAN!!!

WITH ALL THE OIL & TAR SAND PRODUCTION ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE I'M AFFRAID THINGS ARE GONNA CHANGE!!!

I HOPE I'M WRONG!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[slamdunk]

RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Ya i know what ya mean. That campground is right by a new oil rig and a VERY busy all night traffic road from semi's going up & down it all night long. It was kind of annoying to say the least. Not too mention all the big rigs that were traveleling the ridge road from the top of Seep all the way over through the big valley by Hay canyon.....non stop one after the other.
The deer didn't seem to mind, they were actually not afraid of vehicles.....it was quite commical.



Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[offhuntn]

RE: bobcat rules...

Bobcat says: "ANYONE CAUGHT SHOOTING DINKS & WASTING WILDLIFE BECAUSE THEY GOT TRIGGER HAPPY & JUST COULDN'T TAKE TIME TO COUNT POINTS WILL SUFFER WITH THE CONSEQUENCES WHICH WILL BE A MANDATORY 100,000.00 FINE,LOSS OF THEIR VEHICLE,LOSS OF THEIR LOWLIFE QUAD,LOSS OF ALL HUNTING EQUIPMENT,LOSS OF THEIR RIFLES AND THEIR HUNTING RIGHTS REVOKED FOR LIFE & CHARGED WITH A MANDATORY FELONY!!!"


Fine me $100,000.00, take my vehicle, take all my hunting gear and hunting rights but for hell sake don't take my quad!

Just kidding. Back with the three point or better law!

The only offhuntn that knows BOBCAT'S got a good perspective!!!

 

[toxophilite]

I really liked the 3 point or better rule back in the late 80's always saw tons of bucks. It's pretty much the rule that I follow anyway. I think to make it effective is to make it 3 point or better for muzzle and rifle then make it any buck for 12-18 year olds and bowhunters. I think that its the ideal management style. If someone want to just shoot anything let them fling some arrows.