Canadian outfitters - hunt deposits, etc..

matchbook454 · Jun 28, 2021

Looks like the other thread got locked, closed, whatever. I don’t comment much on these threads but this one I felt I had to. I agree it sucks that a lot of these outfitters got caught in a bad situation. I truly feel bad for them. However I also do not think it’s right for them to take peoples money without fulfilling their end of the deal. Whether they have a clause in their contract or not. Personally if I was spending more than a couple grand on a hunt or hunting outside of the U.S. I would have bought trip insurance. I see both sides but feel that it is also up to the outfitter to protect his or herself in situations like this. I feel many are reckless in their business practices. I made my career choice after weighing a lot of risks and benefits. Unfortunately I decided against fishing and hunting for a living. Yes I dreamed about doing that as a kid, but was smart enough to see the risks and downside of going down that path. These outfitters obviously didn’t. I’ve been in similar situations as some of these hunters that were booked to hunt in Canada last fall as well. And I got screwed as the hunter and will never return to those outfitters or say a kind word about them. Anyway, if I were to start a business as a fishing or hunting guide I feel that it would be my responsibility to provide my clients what they paid for or refund their money, reschedule them, etc. if I could not deliver what they paid for. I’m my opinion there are some really good outfitters out there but far more bad ones. This has been my experience over the past 25 years of hunting and fishing with guides and outfitters. So I guess after all of this I feel less bad for the outfitters. It was their choice as a career and these are the risks. Not that I don’t feel bad for them. I just feel that they need to provide what was paid for and make good on their end. Maybe if they all got together they could get some sort of government aid, financial assistance, etc.? If they all went out of business it would sure hurt the economy and affect more than just the hunting industry.

sticksender · Jun 28, 2021

matchbook454 said:
Personally if I was spending more than a couple grand on a hunt or hunting outside of the U.S. I would have bought trip insurance.

Many people did & do. We then found out that most general trip loss policies from companies like Travelguard and Global Rescue cover only very specific losses....one of which is NOT a trip loss caused by a government disallowing travel due to a pandemic.

matchbook454 · Jun 28, 2021

sticksender said:
Many people did & do. We then found out that most general trip loss policies from companies like Travelguard and Global Rescue cover only very specific losses....one of which is NOT a trip loss caused by a government disallowing travel due to a pandemic.

Wow! I did not know that. That really sucks! If I forked out $10k for a hunt and the outfitter told me I was screwed I’d be furious!

Utahlefty · Jun 28, 2021

True, travel insurance only worked in this situation if you actively had COVID at the time of the trip. Otherwise you were at the mercy of the company you booked with.

From a client's perspective, I had two river trips booked (Alsek and Firth) that were obviously cancelled due to border closures --twice. They were rolled from 20/21 to 21/22 to now 22/23. The projected price has gone up a bit each time but I've gotten full credit of monies paid towards the balances.

The Canadian government, by my count, has EIGHT programs that provide money to employers to cover fixed costs and payroll due to COVID closures. Some are grants, some are partially forgivable loans, some are merely interest free loans. They may not have been as good as the U.S.'s PPP forgivable loans but I don't remember reading a peep from Shockey about how he took advantage of the programs offered.

My small business survived COVID by:

a) having a rainy day cushion
b) having a line of credit pre-established &
c) taking advantage of govt programs I was eligible for (PPP)

I suspect Shockey ran the tank dry every season and had no capability to withstand even a short disruption of income stream.

As self-serving as his op-ed in OL was, at least he was honest enough to warn future potential clients that he's operating on the edge of insolvency even in "normal" times....

matchbook454 · Jun 28, 2021

Utahlefty said:
I suspect Shockey ran the tank dry every season and had no capability to withstand even a short disruption of income stream.

As self-serving as his op-ed in OL was, at least he was honest enough to warn future potential clients that he's operating on the edge of insolvency even in "normal" times....

I agree 100%. And I think that this was a great article for U.S. hunters to read and is only going to hurt the rest of the Canadian outfitters. I’m sure there are some decent ones that did the right thing however I would have to get a lot of great recommendations and things in writing to protect myself before ever booking with a Canadian outfitter again. Not that there aren’t shitty outfitters here on the US. The only 2 outfitters I’ve dealt with in Canada were great - 1 fishing and 1 hunting, and have been burned by a few US outfitters - mostly waterfowl and 1 charter captain.

littlebull209338 · Jun 28, 2021

I think there is a possibility that Shockey is up to his $$$ in debt. I was surprised when Primos said that he was in deep debt at one time. Google shows Shockey has a net worth of $2M but who knows OR even cares ?

hossblur · Jun 28, 2021

Imagine being "Bob" the Canadian outfitter. You are struggling, you constantly trying to communicate with clients letting them know you are going to make it right. You are going to deliver.

Then that idiot with a black hat writes an article basically telling your clients to pound sand, they are taking the loss.

Now your phone is lit up, lawyers are getting contacted, etc.

My guess, old Shockey ain't the favorite of the outfitter world in Canada

tailchasers · Jun 28, 2021

Our Canadian outfitter is carrying our deposit forward to the following year, potentially years, UNLESS there is a reasonably plausible means to get to Canada. We did agree to pay any reasonable rate increase should there even be any increase. All in writing. Seems outfitters are rather in tune with their reviews so if one is giving you some heartache I'd suggest a nice review about about their customer relations.

matchbook454 · Jun 28, 2021

tailchasers said:
Our Canadian outfitter is carrying our deposit forward to the following year, potentially years, UNLESS there is a reasonably plausible means to get to Canada. We did agree to pay any reasonable rate increase should there even be any increase. All in writing. Seems outfitters are rather in tune with their reviews so if one is giving you some heartache I'd suggest a nice review about about their customer relations.

Sounds like you have a good outfitter. I’m sure there are a lot of them. Sounds like Jim Shockey might be in much more financial trouble than the average outfitter and is one of few that are sticking it to their clients.

Homer · Jun 28, 2021

maybe it's something outfitters should be insured for.......it was their country's fault.....

tailchasers · Jun 28, 2021

matchbook454 said:
Sounds like you have a good outfitter. I’m sure there are a lot of them. Sounds like Jim Shockey might be in much more financial trouble than the average outfitter and is one of few that are sticking it to their clients.

We do have confidence with them. Previous outfitters also shared with us the importance of positive customer references. They survive by reputation and repeat customers. Screw those consistent return clients and they suffer.