change? anyone with me?

S

stinkystomper

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]Please read this entire post before you decide one way or the other on this contraversial subject.

I've been thinking about a way to go about changing the draw to try and make it a better system. Most people want numbers as proof in the pudding and others, I assume, will never be happy regardless.

What I am thinking about is trying to put a plan together that will not change draw odds on any current hunts as they currently sit. I would like to get some tags out of the landowner pool, about 20 percent across the board and shove them into a bonus point pool. This would allow hunters in NM to be assured of drawing the most premium hunts available once every so many years. Arizona has the best elk units in the nation and an arizona resident knows that with a bow he will get his tag once at least every ten years, and every 15 with a rifle. Well, NM offers far more tags than Arizona and I think we could possibly have an even better draw rate.

How would I prove this. Well proof would only come after several years of drawing but with the other states already providing data the mathematics will already have several data points to validate the overall plan. I have talked with some of the professors at The mathematics department at Texas Tech about assigning the NM draw system as a project to a masters or doctorate student that is specializing in statistics and stochaic mathematics. I assume that within a year they can have a very comprehensive and accurate model of how the draw odds will work. They will have to take into account people jumping from one unit to the next, worst case application growth from year to year, etc.

In addition I was going to talk with the business department about the 20% or so decrease in Landowner tags and see if they agree that a reduction in tags will most likely result in an increase in revenue when averaged over the years.

In summary what I would like to do is to come up with a draw system change towards a bonus point system that is scientifically backed and shows the NM draw as it currently sits will not change from its current structure of odds. The only change would be almost be guaranteed draw for the best tags once every "X" years. Yes there would be bonus point and yes there would be LO cuts be the broad picture would show everything to stay the same except you would know you would at least get to go hunting regardless of the low draw odds for each hunt. Tag numbers would stay the same etc.

Hatred asids what do you guys think? has this model already been built? I've already talke with the comission last fall and they seemed very agreeable if I could come up with a model. So before I do anything I figured I would get a draft together based on how the public views the whole current system.
 
I think its a good idea. But getting NMG&F to pull 20% of landowner tags might be like pulling teeth......that is unless they can be convinced that there is more money in it for them.

Good luck with your plan. Your like the hunting version of Malcolm X.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 02:54PM (MST)[p]

It is a virtual impossibility to ensure "hunter A" will draw any tag within a set number of years unless you limit the number of applicants. That's not going to happen.
Look at Utah and how the odds change drastically from year to year as people jump from unit to unit.
We've seen the comments this year already, "I had a guaranteed shot and didn't draw the tag".

The best system is no points system
2nd best is a Bonus point system
3rd best is a Preference point system

Those systems and variations of them are currently being used and non of them will do what you want.
 
>The best system is no points system
>2nd best is a Bonus point system
>3rd best is a Preference point system

>Those systems and variations of them are currently being used and non of them will do what you want.

+1

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]Sorry but NM'S system is one of the best there is!!! I would only like them to go back to the old way of drawing apps! Go thru everyones first choice instead of the way they do it now! I didnt draw anything on this last draw but I dont care I like knowing I had a chance!
Take the b points and p points and shove them!
 
Take as many LO tags as you can get the commission to turn loose of and add them to the pot. Otherwise leave the system as is. It is the best there is. Preference Points and Bonus Points only lead to preventing those who aren't in the first year (children-our future hunters) from every drawing a premium tag.

Phantom Hunter
 
I might get tarred and feathered for this, but I would like to see ALL states get rid of tag allocations for hunters using guides. They should be in the same pool as their counterparts
(resident or non-resident). I have no problem with landowners getting tags for their specific ranch, but these tags should not be unit wide.

Bill
 
Stinky the problem is that nm are extremely simple minded! I'm still lmao about how everyones praising up front fees for improving their odds this year but a mandatory wait on successful elk hunters wasn't doing a thing for odds!
Why is it that so many people think that a bonus point system means that you must have max points to draw? With a bp syatem you have a chance with 0 and your odds improve each year your unsuccessful in the draw! You can't even compare nm to utah in hunting elk and their point system. Utah offers like 500 elk tags state wide! Duh! Of course no one in utah can draw a tag!
Now I submitted a 127 page plan to the g&f here on how a bonus point system can greatly improve draw odds.
The response I received was "it is not in the best interests of nm sportsmen to try and improve upon the current draw system". So what that means is that the morons running the big organizations here in nm have to much pull and an even dumber group of supporters! Good luck stinky I'll help you in any way you need, but I feel you'll have a better chance talking to the trees around here!!!


I just call em as I see em!
 
1.First off, I think everyone should find the root of any weed before you pull it. The root being P&Y,and B&C.
If everyone wasn't so caught up in killing a 400" bull, 200" deer, 90" goat, hunting wouldn't have the black eye it has today. Yea, I am guilty of being a horn hunter, but the older I get, the picture is clearer. I am afraid we are just starting to see the results of greed and jealousy.

2.What does P&Y, and B&C promote? Greed(ya think) Poaching(uh... yea!)Stacked drawing odds(is that what this post is about?)Jealousy(thats allready half the worlds problem!)I could go on, and on. Think about it.
Hunting is so much more than killing a book animal, and all that is going down the drain! Quick fast and in a hurry.

3.As far as landowners go, if a guy has a ranch property with animals, he should get tags! Now if there are to many animals taken on these hunts, reducing the herds to dangerous levels(can anyone prove this is happening?), than some management needs to be put in place. If the population is fine refer to #2..Jealousy

4.Do not even think about changing the draw in NM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 09:07PM (MST)[p]Sounds good to the eye that you might draw any given tag in a number of years, the only way that a bonus point system will work and work for all is the following,

#1: You can only apply for one of these species per year: antelope, deer, elk, bighorn sheep, oryx, ibex, barbary sheep, this system is kinda like Idaho's Draw System which currently has some of the best draw odds per species in the West.

#2: Make the application weapon specific: bow, muzz., rifle all three choices on the application would have to be the same weapon choice on the application,

#3: 15% max non-resident tags for each species all non- residents in the same pool guided/non-guided

#4: Take 20-25% of the landowner tags and put them in the draw system (landowners will need some revenue for what the game animals destroy, eat, inhabit. so they still need some tags)

#5: Make the bonus points squared like they do in the Nevada draw system, still fair but those in it longest will have more squared points and increased odds

#6: Last but not least upfront fees for all species

I think if this system is put in place, it will work now and into the future for younger generations and there will probably be extra tags for some species every year that can be put into a second draw (application fees) which of course means more revenue for the G&F
nmbighorn
 
Nmbighorn I agree with most of what you have said with the exception of 1,3, and 4
1 nm has fewer applicants in the draw than any other western state, yes odds would go up drastically. But it would hurt the better units and leave a lot of tags leftover in the lesser ones.
3 10% tops!!!!!! Let the residents that pay taxes here have the tags! I have never once thought I was being cheated when I've applied in any other state! Fairs fair!
4 no unit wide tags period! Put all lo tags back to the general draw and give landowners private only tags!! No quota, unlimited if they like. The animals are smart enough to stay out once the onslaught begins!
But everything else you've said I agree 100%!

I just call em as I see em!
 
Stump,

You make some valid points etc!

The problem is many of us have been fighting this for years. It is all about $$$!

I like what the NM Wildlife Fed is doing etc!

The NM welfare system is a joke!

It is getting so tough to draw a tag, and no matter what system you like,, it is not going to make it better. There are only so many tags and elk!

If you want to fight the % of tag allocations to landowners etc, you better have a state legislature on your side. Posting it on the this site is not going to matter, and fight better then we have!
 
Well,I still think NM has the best draw in the western states.
I have drawn 5 tags in 4 years, now bear in mind I'll probally never draw again,but I can buy a LO tag if I want. LO's have to get some kind compensation for damage done to their ranches etc.

As far as the LO tag prices getting out of control "Don't buy them for a couple of years" supply and demand.

I think everyone has a valid point,but who knows.

Joe E Sikora
 
Very good post and everyone has valid points of view.

My view is to keep the draw the way it is.

I would like the state to limit the NR tags to "UP TO 10%" and put the rest of the tags back in the draw for Residents (as was stated above).

Also, if a land owner gets tags then that tag should be good for that private land only and can not be used on BLM or National forest that boarders the private land. It seems when elk hunting in 6a, I frequently run into guides on the Wilderness with their land owner tag clients. Most of these land owners own acres that normally don't even have elk on it. Yet they get tags they sell, then hunt the state land or wilderness that I have to attempt to draw.

Terry
 
I personally like the way both Utah and Wyoming do their elk draws. You have a slight chance of drawing each year, but you can build points and over the long haul you get to almost a guaranteed chance of drawing the unit you want.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-10 AT 07:32AM (MST)[p]People keep talking about compensation for land owners, if you look through the SCR. list and see how little land they own it is crazy. Most of these people moved/baught property because they WANTED a place near wildlife, why should hunters/taxpayers help pay for that. To me it is like moving next to an airport and suing 2 years later because of the noise.

NM is the only state that I know of that gives land owners tags out the way we do, and the outfitters and land owners in other states still survive.
 
I have no plans of making these changes on mm. I have every intent to get some legislatures on my side as well as some g&f personell. Before I even think about doing anything however I think its best to see what popular opinion is and build from there. I would love to see us start with caping all hunts to 10% nr period and possibly starting a bonus point from landowner tags if and only if it can be shown we will have a system like arizona where we will draw the best tags every so many years. If a scientific model doesnt show a favorable outcome for a bonus point system IE, only those getting in first will ever get tags, then I wouldn't support it either.

I also would like to see 25% of all the tags taken out of the draw and given to youth hunters. They need to hunt more than the adults and the importance of getting our youth involved is our biggest obstacle but that is another issue all together.


ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
How about making limited draw tags like done in Alaska. Once you draw a particular tag you won't be able to draw it for 4 years later. Alaska doesn't have a preference point system, but the ability to draw a tag after a 4 year wait does thin the application pool a bit. Maybe I am looking through rose colored glasses.
WVBOWAK
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-10 AT 03:32PM (MST)[p]NM has best system in west.But the non-res. pool should be 10-15% with no outfitter/guide preferences.And increase cost. Landowner tags should be ranch only,and only the deeded land(like mine) and they should not be taken out of the resident pool. Bonus and preference point systems suck,unless you are wealthy enough to spend the $ every year IMHO,I'll be lucky to ever get a decent tag in UT and they cost more every year,good luck getting a tag in AZ. Youth should be given first crack at some tags and so should wounded warriors program. And the prime units should be limited to those that haven't drawn before(every other year as was propossed sounded good)
 
The 2 things that will make the biggest difference in drawing odds are capping TOTAL non res tags to 10% like most other states.
That is a big reduction in non res tag revenue. That can only happen through legislation.
Would the average NM hunter pay more for his tag to make up the difference?
Does the hunting public have the horsepower to get anything changed in the legislation as we sit right now? Dont think so.

The Second significant way to impact Res draw odds is to reduce LO tags. Some of you say 10% some of you say more.
It is a pretty safe bet that the Agriculture lobby is a lot stronger than the Hunting lobby. Ranchers magic word is a depredation law suit that is why they pretty much get to choose how many tags they get. If there is a way to make inroads it would be with the unit wide tags. These are pretty easy to get as well.


As my very good friend ELKMAN stated the New Mexico Wildlife Federation seems to be the organization that is in tune with these issues.
I did get a lecture regarding the antelope program in NM and NMWF's involvement in it from a outfitter. Honestly, I know little enough about the Antelope program to pick a side.
 
I'm sure everyone has read the New Mexico section of this mornings Albuquerque Journal?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-10 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]HUNTING FOR LICENSES: New Mexico Wildlife Federation says it's getting even more difficult for locals to get permits

Jun. 20--It's a rite of spring for New Mexico hunters: enter the annual drawing for a big game license, then grumble when you don't get one.

"I can't get an antelope permit in New Mexico. ... I'm going to have to go to Wyoming again this year," fumed retiree Ron Hammond of Santa Fe, who has struck out the past 15 or so years.

"It's totally disgusting. It's totally unjust," Hammond said. He headed north in 2008, spending $450 in gas but returning with coolers full of enough antelope and deer meat to last a couple of years.

The New Mexico Wildlife Federation says New Mexico's generosity to in-state landowners and out-ofstate hunters combines to squeeze out locals -- and the situation is getting worse.

"It's not just people complaining about the luck of the draw," said the federation's director, Jeremy Vesbach. "At heart, it's an unfair system."

But the Game and Fish Department says the system is determined by elected legislators and governorappointed commissioners with public participation.

"The rules are set by the Game Commission, and the laws are set by the Legislature, and we implement them," said department spokesman Marty Frentzel. "There are plenty of opportunities for people to debate them and to provide input."

The recent public drawing decided who got licenses to hunt deer, elk, antelope, ibex, javelina, bighorn sheep and Barbary sheep.

While there were more than enough javelina licenses to go around, there was competition for other species. For example, there were 10,042 applications by resident and nonresident hunters for 1,699 antelope licenses available in the public drawing, 39,859 applications for 20,255 elk licenses, 5,085 applications for 14 bighorn sheep licenses and 3,699 applications for 200 ibex licenses.

There were more deer licenses than applications -- 36,195 licenses and 35,882 applications. But that includes licenses for less popular types of weapons, such as bows and arrows or muzzle loaders, and for less popular areas, creating compe- tition for the more coveted licenses.

Landowners favored

According to the wildlife group, the chances of New Mexico hunters' drawing the popular elk or antelope tags have dwindled in recent years.

There are a couple of factors influencing the trend.

First, the state gives away a large percentage of the available hunts to private owners of land that is the animals' habitat.

In fact, the federation says no other state in the mountain West is as generous as New Mexico to private landowners. Colorado and Utah also give transferable tags to landowners, but Vesbach said his research showed less than 10 percent of the antelope permits went to them. In New Mexico, 70 percent of pronghorn antelope licenses were allocated to landowners in 2008, according to the federation's research.

Technically, what the landowners are given are license-purchase authorizations, which they, in turn, can sell. There were a couple of so-called landowner tags for buck antelope on sale last month for $1,500 apiece.

The remaining available licenses -- 30 percent, in the case of antelope -- are then distributed through the annual public big game lottery.

But New Mexico hunters get only 78 percent of that remaining 30 percent; the other 22 percent are reserved for out-of-state hunters, under a law passed in 1997 that covers deer, elk, pronghorn antelope, Barbary sheep and javelina.

That's a higher number than in other states.

'A tough deal'

In New Mexico, of the 22 percent reserved for out-ofstate hunters, 12 percent go to nonresidents guided by New Mexico outfitters, and 10 percent to nonresidents without guides.

"It's a tough deal, if you want to hunt in the state," said Russell Johnson, who lives in the South Valley outside Albuquerque and got his last antelope permit seven years ago, although he and his wife enter the drawing annually.

"There's a bigger percent of tags going to out-of-state hunters than there should be. ... We put in year after year, and it's just frustrating not to draw anything," Johnson said.

Johnson, whose "passion is hunting," did get a deer permit this year, but for an area that was his last choice and where he expects to see few, if any, animals.

"Basically, we're just going to camp," he said.

Other Rocky Mountain states generally have a lower percentage of big game licenses reserved for nonresidents: It's 10 percent, for example, in Arizona, Montana, Utah, Nevada and Idaho, according to spokesmen in those states' wildlife agencies.

In Colorado -- where the set-aside for landowners for big game is capped at 15 percent -- nonresidents are limited to 20 percent of the licenses in the premier hunting areas and up to 35 percent in less sought-after locations.

In Wyoming, nonresidents are capped at 16 percent for elk licenses and 20 percent for deer and antelope.

Private habitat

Elk and antelope are the only two New Mexico species subject to the landowner allocation system, said Cal Baca, the state Game and Fish Department's private land programs manager.

He said the percentage of authorizations that goes to ranchers -- who must enroll with the department to be eligible -- reflects where the animals are found.

Most of the pronghorn antelope habitat is privately owned, so most of the hunting opportunities go to the private landowners, he said.

Elk are more likely than antelope to be found on public land, so the proportion of authorizations to landowners is lower. The Wildlife Federation says more than 40 percent of elk licenses went to private landowners.

Baca said the landowners are given the authorizations in recognition of their contribution to wildlife habitat.

"We're basically saying, because your private property is supporting a certain number of antelope, this is your ability to hunt some of them," Baca said.

"I don't feel it's an unfair system," he also said. But neither is it consistent, he added, because the agency's four designated geographical areas differ in their methods of determining the allocations to landowners.

Revisions under way

The department is developing a statewide approach to managing antelope that would standardize the allocation procedures, he said.

"That system is being debated right now, and everybody has the opportunity to comment on it," said the department's Frentzel.

A system is already in place for elk.

Hammond, the Santa Fe hunter, alleges the state Game Commission is "dominated by the landowners."

"They think of the public, wild game as owned by the landowners. ... They treat it like it's their personal property, and its not," he contended.

Bruce Wilder, senior pastor at Faith Lutheran Church in Albuquerque and a longtime hunter, said he is saddened to talk to members of his congregation who have given up on what he called "that great American hunting tradition."

While some members of his congregation can afford to buy expensive authorizations from landowners, "for the average working-class person who is just wanting to hunt, $1,500 becomes costprohibitive," he said.

Wilder and his two sonsin-law plan to head to his former home state of Minnesota in October to hunt deer, after failing to draw permits for the animal here.

"Food you buy, gas you use: That's all revenue our great state loses when people like myself have to go out of state to hunt," Wilder said.

Wilder did draw a permit to bow hunt for elk in a location he said would be "exceedingly challenging."

The new antelope regulations could be ready in September, and sportsmen are asking the department to revamp the system with public input and move toward issuing a greater percentage of permits through the drawing.

"It might not happen overnight, but we need to get started," Vesbach said.

He called the 70 percent allocation to private landowners "excessive" and questioned whether the agency has the data to justify it.

A system that creates a "secondary market" in tags politicizes wildlife management and is unfair to hunters , he also said.

"No matter where they are, the wildlife belongs to the public," Vesbach said.
 
totally against the point system idea. I believe Utah and Arizona are out to about 14 years to draw on the points system. I have drawn the gila 3 times in 8 years. All for a 15-20 percent decrease in LO tags and roll half of them into the draw and let go of remainder tags to help quality come back to NM.
 
If you introduce a point system into NM game and fish, it will take over the whole system. If you dont believe that, well, that is your right but it definitely would. Again, I am totally against the point system for NM.
 
Nm has the worst draw system period! I will never put one dollar of my money towards the nm g&f or any other nm wild life supporter until nm gets a fairer system! 9 yrs straight without an elk permit, didn't apply this past year, but most people just say sorry for your bad luck! Well been 8 for 12 in az, so how bad are bonus point systems? And when my dad and nephew can't even draw a couple bs 31 rifle deer tags????? Nm its time for change! You guys might want to ask yourselves why 30000 less people applied in nm last year? Upfront fees? Nope, az had no change in applicants when they did that! Its because who really cares if you miss out on hunting here! The units are overcrowded, the animal quality is going way downhill, and you really don't have much of a chance at a tag anyways! but I will again be hunting all over the country, but probably never again in my home state!


I just call em as I see em!
 
Hey Boys,

It sounds great!

How are you going to get the tag reduction to 10% for non-rez?

I am by no means against non-rez hunters! I am against the percentages! Why dose 12% go to outfitters etc????????

Are you going to attend the meeting in Hobbs, NM on a Tues, when you live in Farmington?

Great article in the "Journal" on Sunday!
 
Currently, NM has the best draw system in the west. Its not perfect, but its ok. If G&F wanted to enhance what we have now, they would need to make a hybrid of what is currently being used and a bonus point system. Let's say that 20%-30% of the tags are held for those with the most bonus points and the remainder 80%-70% of the tags are awarded the way they are currently.

I also think G&F needs to really look at the land owner tags system. What a joke that is. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for land owners and giving them some type of reimbursment, but not this amount in tags. I also think since the animals are a resource to all New Mexican's, there should be a cap on all tags. $4,000+ for a bull tag? Thats criminal. The so called loss to the land owners should be looked at more as a cost of doing business. If my company gets something stolen, I have to write it off as a cost of doing busniess, not turned into the state asking for a reimbursment, then take that reimbursment and charge a ridiculous amount of money for it.
 
As A Nonresident I would like to make a couple of comments. I agree 100% that the residents should get more tags. Y'all live there & pay taxes. I couldn't believe it last year when the guide I was antelope hunting with told me he couldn't hunt unless he bought a LO tag. He hadn't drawn a tag that season, any tag at all.I didn't know your system worked like that. I know it would hurt my chances of drawing ,but I know how I would feel if I had been trying to draw tags & was a resident. I also like the way NM does their draw. I don't like the preference points etc. You start getting point creep & dang near never get a tag, especially if you are up in age. At least with the draw NM has ,I have a chance at a hunt ,instead of watching PP build up. Good Luck Guys & if y'all can get something that works better for I hope you can get the changes made!!
 
NM does have the best system. Maybe some have bad luck. May I suggest changing the timing of your application. I could not imagine waiting as long as the typical wait for an arizona or Utah hunt. Definitely I and most tax paying citizens fair much better under the current system. This year I drew my third choices unit 13 elk and unit 14 deer. Way to go NM. I am drawing about every other year. It would not be that way under a points system. It would be many years between hunts. I am willing to gamble at the same level as everyone else each year. Yes, LO's greed has decimated the quality in many of the prime units.
 
+1

Agree with you TRC but would also add that most of the units in NM are quite large and unit wide landowner tags are a JOKE in that someone could be hunting animals 50 miles away from where the supposed "damage" is taking place. This is even taken to the next degree in the Small Contributing Ranch lottery where if you aren't lucky in the unit you own land, you can get a tag in yet another lottery for a unit completely outside of your land ownership. I noticed a landowner with about 20 acres this year hit it big with a mature bull tag in a premium Gila unit. I think I'll purchase me about 20 acres and let the bank know I'll have it paid of in three years from the sale of my LO elk tag!
 
elkman said something about a meeting in hobbs???

please elaborate.

I will show up in your honor and see if I can't get that bonus point system you love so much enstated. lol




ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
I am affraid that federal owned land might just be taken over by the feds one day. All they need is an excuse.
 
Leave NM the way it is !!! NM elk tags drawn since 2000 - 4 drawn tags - 2 landowner tags...
AZ... 0 for 12 years trying to draw an elk tag.
 
Along with my post above I think maybe the game and fish should test the bonus system with nonresident applications first for five years then we could see the long term effect of the bonus system if it does not work then they can scrap it but I still think the way I described the system above it will work for everyone long term push this stinky it'll work.
Nmbighorn
 
i really don't think we should be looking at taking landowner tags away. those are good things that ranchers/farms should be entitled to because of their land and the fact that alot of the wildlife would be in alot worse shape if it weren't for the landowners in the state. I like the idea of limiting NR tags and wouldn't be TOO upset to pay more for my tags if it meant i would have alot better chance of drawing. I think the system is broke and I really wish NM would go to a point system. a buddy of mine has drawn antelope two years in a row(also the first two times he has ever applied) and i have drawn it once in the last 16 years. but hey we are in NM and therefore we have some of the worst game managers in the west. I am in logan, ut at a training and have been talking to folks all across the west that are here and I have decided that our state is pretty much the worst to residents and most generous to NR.
 
Nm has the best draw system around!
NR are capped at a good level, and all residents are treated equally in the draw.
I lived in Co., went to church with men who were putting their 10yr old children in the draw to gain points so that hopefully they could hunt deer once by the time they were 25. YOU do NOT want a point system in NM!!!!!

Does anyone know just how many land owner tags are given out for elk?

And why would you ever buy a land owner tag (elk) for $800-1500, when you can get an OTC tag in Co for $550!!
 
outdoorsdude, nm has an ok system but let me tell you that it is most certainly broke in many ways, nm is over generous with the tags it issues to nonresidents and it is certainly not fair to residents I know for a fact that in the last 6 years 50% of our once in a liftime sheep tags are given to nonresidents (how is that fair to residents) I've been applying for sheep tags for 27 years and have not drawn out when I first put in the odds were 1 in 22, with a point system I should have been sheep hunting by now! I've been in the draw for antelope for 18 years, no goat tags, as a matter of fact my brothers my dad and I have 72 applications in the draw over the years for antelope and have only drawn out 3 permits, yes, thats 1 in 24 applications, that to me that is not fair when in fact nonresidents have 100% odds of drawing in some units with the outfitter pool, Since its inception of applying I have never drawn out for deer in unit 2 A,B,C this is applying for bow hunts! This is insane!

In colorado your point system is working I draw a deer tag every couple years and the changes Colorado has made in the last couple years for residents is an improvement, but agreed Colorado is fair to residents and non-residents. You dont have to wait 15 years to draw a deer tag if you want to hunt.

As far as landowner permits issued out you can check the e-plus and scr list and count them out.

Your last statment of paying out for permits, you have to remember NM has quality so people pay for bigger bulls but as far as paying 1000-2000 for a unit 52 tag give your money ($550) to colorado instead, your hunting the same 200-300" bull

Things do need to change in NM, My first post above explains what kind of bonus system we need and changes in the draw that need to happen.
nmbighorn
 
>Nm has the best draw system
>around!
>NR are capped at a good
>level, and all residents are
>treated equally in the draw.
>
>I lived in Co., went to
>church with men who were
>putting their 10yr old children
>in the draw to gain
>points so that hopefully they
>could hunt deer once by
>the time they were 25.
>YOU do NOT want a
>point system in NM!!!!!
>
>Does anyone know just how many
>land owner tags are given
>out for elk?
>
>And why would you ever buy
>a land owner tag (elk)
>for $800-1500, when you can
>get an OTC tag in
>Co for $550!!


Outdoorsdude, anyone in CO putting their kids in for a deer hunt at 10 so they can hunt at 25 is misinforming you.
There are lots and lots of decent units in CO you can draw with 0-5 points.

As far as paying for a LO elk tag in NM it depends on what you want. CO is managed for quantity. NM the LO tags range from $500 on up to $5000. It depends what you want.

I would say 10% to Non Res is fair as that seems to be the standard of the western states with some states like OR that is 5%.
 
NM is the only state I applied for this year.
Because it has no points system!!!
And I drew Oryx and Deer.
Let me also say that I think a 10% NR cap is
absolutely ridiculous!!!! 90% of applicants
get 10% of the tags - yeah, that makes sense.
Just because other states do it dont make it right.
And get shafted with insanely high tag prices
to boot!!! NR's keep fish and game agencies in
business and residents get most of the benefit.
I would hate to see NM end up like Idaho.
There is a reason I quit applying in AZ and it
aint because its too far away. Got tired of
jumping through flaming hoops only to get
slapped on the other side.
DONT SCREW WITH SOMETHING THAT AINT BROKE!!!
 
I've been thinking about this for a few days and the biggest difference between New Mexico and other western states isn't not having a point system or even the 22% of the tags that go into the nonresident pool, it the amazing amount of tags that are given out to landowners.

That article in the Albequerque Journal said that 70% of the total tags for antelope go to landowners. The remaining 30% are what is being divided up between the residents and nonresidents. The numbers aren't as high for elk, but many of the elk and antelope tags are issued unit wide instead of for that specific ranch as well.

For deer, landowners don't even need to be issued landowner tags, they can just go buy however many they want over the counter for thier property.

Changing the system would take a lot though.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-10 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]NMWF likes to blow smoke and get their readers all riled up. If 70% of the Lopes are on Pvt ground, it's a real stretch to assume there would be 70% more tags going to the public if all those tags were taken from the LO's, but that's what they imply.

I would probably support them if they just came out with the "rest of the story" and said if the LO tags were gone, there would be enough animals to justify X number of tags on the available public land. But, saying that doesn't get their readerships blood pressure up and the donations coming in.


Based on previous attempts to strike the Jennings Law down, I would guess you will need to change the people in the legislature to get that law off the books.

I would focus my attention on removing the Politicians that keep it intact. A statewide, organized effort to place one candidate at a time, promoted to Sportsmen as a way to get your agenda passed. When the 1st Politician falls, the others will back down.

I would be open about the agenda,ie; repeal Jennings, reduce NR tags, and limit LO tags and the way to do it is to replace "ABC" Politician with your Candidate "XYZ".

When Joe6Pack hunter sees the "what and why" of your plan, they will get off the couch and vote. You've already seen they won't get off the couch to go to a meeting.
 
EVILNR, You dont think it AINT broke because you are one of the NR that drew tags. What is absolutely ridiculous!!! is all the residents that did not draw.You still might get slapped when you come to NM.
 
The federal land should be wide open to us all really, no % bs, Didn't we all pay for it? not just 78% residents and 22% non-residents.....If the state is hung up on managing it, well maybe the feds need to take care of it....the state land is a different story
 
Thinking about it some more, in the states that don't offer landowner tags, it seems that the animals end up getting pressured off the public land onto private land and then the landowners end up charging folks a tresspass fee or lease their land to an outfitter and they end up getting their money in the end as well.

Giving the tags to the landowners from the start just changes the way the dollars are passed around.
 
The problem is the LO's have always worked this thing. In other words, they know public land animals go to there properties during the hunt. They have two choices. One is allow a tag recieved through public draw to relieve the so called "damage". The other (which has been the game plan) shoot them and take pictures so the Game and fish will send you "tags" to sell. My suggestion is a showdown:). Allow the ranchers to shoot as many as they want but no tags(yes it will hurt the herds initially some. Once there sugar(money) dries up, we can introduce a Ranch hunt choice as one of the three choices with a tresspass fee not exceed 500.00. Then let the LO's get back to being a cattle rancher again and the tax paying citizens take care of depredation and game control.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-10 AT 09:54AM (MST)[p]>How about making limited draw tags
>like done in Alaska. Once
>you draw a particular tag
>you won't be able to
>draw it for 4 years
>later. Alaska doesn't have a
>preference point system, but the
>ability to draw a tag
>after a 4 year wait
>does thin the application pool
>a bit. Maybe I am
>looking through rose colored glasses.
>
>WVBOWAK
___________________________________________________________
AMEN! +1

This is what NM tried to do for this year!! Only difference was the lay off period was only ONE year for Q/HD tags. It was the BEST solution & too many crybabies who would have been the first to not be able to apply this year all they jumped on the same drunken bandwagon and convinced the G&F to eliminate the new rule. WHAT A JOKE! I'm convinced it would have worked extremely well, but it never had a chance to prove itself.

I've learned that he who has the loudest voice wins. Liberal left wing extremists all cry the loudest and speak with a forked tongue, ignoring hard facts and using emotion derived from false pretenses to gain traction to acheive their dark agenda's. How else did all these baffoons end up in office?!
________________________________________________________________

Stinky has passion & some of his ideas are great & one idea bad, so I will not knock him for speaking up for what he beleives. However, I strongly disagree that bonus points are the right solution.

1. LEAVE THE CURRENT DRAW SYSTEM ALONE!!!
2. Reinstate the Q/HD rule.
3. LO tags need to be ranch only
4. LO tags must adhere to the NR quota written in NM law.
5. Increase youth tags 25% (+1!!!) They are the future! If they never get a chance to hunt, they could grow up and join the spotted owl & wolf lover clan that wants to ban hunting altogether!! Idiotic city slicker mentality!


New idea...
1. All "Unit wide Land Owner tags" are to be sold via auction using the 85/15 - resident/non-resident allocation.
2. All "Ranch Only Land Owner tags" will be for cow elk only and may be sold at the land owners discretion for buyer & price.

The above new idea just popped up in my pea-brain and the only problem I have thought of so far with it is that it could cause more private land to be closed to the public. We need to keep in mind that any ranch that has UW tags, must provide the general public access during a legal hunt.




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
Hey " Outnabout" If anyone wants to slap me I'll be in the
Carlsbad area the first week of November.
Just let me know where, I aint had a good
scrap since I was a young'n in Alabama.
Man I miss that!!!

Also, yes I did draw two tags this year. Dont think
it happens every year. Doesnt change how I feel
about the draw and how nonresidents get treated.
And YES we do keep NM game and fish operating.
 
I am all for change! I am a proud resident and have been since birth and New Mexico is long over due for change. Im tired of hearing most of the non-residents crying about lowering the number of NR tags. SHUT UP! Were non-residents in 49 states as well. It fills pretty crappy to have to go to another state to hunt cause you cant draw a tag in your resident state doesnt it? Look at the stats. Would you be happy with that in your resident state? Didnt think so. With that said, stay out of it.

Now for what i believe needs to happen,

#1. 10% for non-residents (guided and unguided on public land only) goes for youth as well.
#2. Land owner tags will be ranch only and could be sold to whom ever they want.
#3. reinstate the Q/HD rule for resident and non (that way we dont have to do a bonus system)
#4. reinstate the antler restriction on all quality and high demand elk tags (some units 5 point or better on either side and others 6 point or better on either side)
#5. reinstate antler restriction on ALL deer units (i would say stick with the original 3 point or better on either side in all standard units and 4 point or better on either side in quality units) our herds are getting worse and worse. for the guys who like to go out and shoot the first antlered thing they see keep them in the standard units, but limit them to 3 point on either side or better.

here is something for thought:
why dont we take all the units, break them down. allocate how many tags go to each unit as a total (depending on herd numbers). take the public draw out of that number. are you with me so far? the remaining number goes to land owners. but in order for them to get tags, they take the number of tags and all the ranches in that unit and have a land owner draw! and to make it even better. 10% of those tags should go to a resident draw and those tags would come with say a $150 trust pass fee to the land owner. just like the missile range.

Im sure i havnt thought of everything that should and needs to be fixed. but its a starting point...
 
>I am all for change! I
>am a proud resident and
>have been since birth and
>New Mexico is long over
>due for change. Im tired
>of hearing most of the
>non-residents crying about lowering the
>number of NR tags. SHUT
>UP! Were non-residents in 49
>states as well. It fills
>pretty crappy to have to
>go to another state to
>hunt cause you cant draw
>a tag in your resident
>state doesnt it? Look at
>the stats. Would you be
>happy with that in your
>resident state? Didnt think so.
>With that said, stay out
>of it.
>
>Now for what i believe needs
>to happen,
>
>#1. 10% for non-residents (guided and
>unguided on public land only)
>goes for youth as well.
>
>#2. Land owner tags will be
>ranch only and could be
>sold to whom ever they
>want.
>#3. reinstate the Q/HD rule for
>resident and non (that way
>we dont have to do
>a bonus system)
>#4. reinstate the antler restriction on
>all quality and high demand
>elk tags (some units 5
>point or better on either
>side and others 6 point
>or better on either side)
>
>#5. reinstate antler restriction on ALL
>deer units (i would say
>stick with the original 3
>point or better on either
>side in all standard units
>and 4 point or better
>on either side in quality
>units) our herds are getting
>worse and worse. for the
>guys who like to go
>out and shoot the first
>antlered thing they see keep
>them in the standard units,
>but limit them to 3
>point on either side or
>better.
>
>here is something for thought:
>why dont we take all the
>units, break them down. allocate
>how many tags go to
>each unit as a total
>(depending on herd numbers). take
>the public draw out of
>that number. are you with
>me so far? the remaining
>number goes to land owners.
>but in order for them
>to get tags, they take
>the number of tags and
>all the ranches in that
>unit and have a land
>owner draw! and to make
>it even better. 10% of
>those tags should go to
>a resident draw and those
>tags would come with say
>a $150 trust pass fee
>to the land owner. just
>like the missile range.
>
>Im sure i havnt thought of
>everything that should and needs
>to be fixed. but its
>a starting point...
>
>
Holy @#$%!!! You mean common sense might work??
 
Don't fix it if it ain't broke. I am also a resident of New Mexico that draws a tag on a regular basis. If you start changing the system we will end up going to a point system. I think we are lucky as residents to at least get a chance to hunt and not wait 10 to 20 years to do so like a lot of other western states.
 
It's great to hear everyone's opinion. That's what a forum is all about. Personally, I think the system is ok as it is, definetly could use some revamping on the landowner tags situation, but overall I think its a good system. All I know is that I used to be one of those guys that complained that I went another year without drawing a tag. Then I found out about monster muleys and started reading alot of threads. Then I realized that there were draw odds, and all kinds of stats available. I then studied them and started looking at things a little differently. And you know what?? I started drawing tags. I am 4 years in a row for either an elk tag or a deer tag. It comes down to how bad you want to hunt. I wanted to learn, and the best way to learn is get out there. Did I draw primo units and kill record book animals?? No. Did I get to hunt and learn new areas and improve my skills?? Hell Yeah. I am a better hunter today for it. And when I do draw that primo tag, I will be ready for it because I was willing to do my homework, study the draw odds and get a tag where I could be out enjoying what I like to do. A successful harvest is just the bonus IMO.
 
Well said nmwapiti.

There is not a program in the world that will guarantee everyone a primo tag every year, every 2 years or even every 5 years.

There are some good animals in some of the easier to draw units, you just need to work harder for them.

Things can be done to increase opportunities.

10% to non res is pretty standard in western states.

Landowner tags for elk really needs to be looked at hard. SCR are getting more tags than they should, Private land deer tags need to be controlled in some units, and Residents should have more opportunities to hunt Antelope in NM.
 
Thats the other thing im sick of hearing, if it aint broke dont fix it. Those are the words of an IGNORANT and INCOMPETENT fool! Thats right, i said it! You guys are the worst for the state. you draw a tag maybe every year and dont get me wrong, thats great. but you seriously dont think anything is wrong? next time your out on a hunt count the number of out of state plates you see. i bet they will be the same and if not more than the new mexico plates. im sure out of that bunch most of them will carry some sort of guide. do you guys not look at the stats for the draw?

LET ME BREAK IT DOWN FOR THOSE WHO CANT COMPREHEND! ILL EVEN RIGHT IN BIG LETTERS...

BASICALLY WHAT WERE TRYING TO SAY. ARE YOU STILL FOLLOWING?
IS THINGS COULD BE BETTER!!! IF THINGS ARE DONE CORRECT. WHICH WILL TAKE ALL OF US SPORTSMAN. EVEN YOU... EXPAND YOUR MIND AND THOUGHTS AND COME UP WITH SOME IDEAS. IF NOT, SHUT UP. ITS THAT SIMPLE. MOST OF US DONT WANT A POINT SYSTEM.
STINKY WAS SAYING, LEAVE THE DRAW THE WAY IT IS, BUT PULL 20% OF THE LANDOWNER TAGS AND MAKE THEM POINT TAGS FOR THE REGULAR DRAW. THAT WAY 10 YEARS DOWN THE LINE YOU WILL HAVE STACKED UP 10 POINTS OVER THE YEARS. IT WOULD ONLY BE 20% THAT WOULD HAVE WENT TO LANDOWNERS ANYWAY. TAGS ME AND YOU WOULDNT SEE UNLESS WE GO PAY A LANDOWNER $5,000. THERE IS ALOT OF VARIABLES TO THIS. I THINK IT IS TO COMPLICATED FOR OUR WONDERFUL GAME AND FISH TO DO. WITH THAT SAID I AM STICKING WITH THE IDEAS I PREVIOUSLY STATED.

one other thing that i forgot to mention. we need to reduce the amount of deer tags in a lot of the southern units. unit 30 has 1,000 on one and another 1,500 on a different hunt, unit 34 has 2 hunts that consist of 1,200 each, 32 has 2 hunts that consist of 600 each, unit 13 has 2 hunts that consist of 500 each and unit 23 has 2 hunts that consist of 450. are you F-ing serious. are herds can not with stand that kind of treatment...
 
I must confess!

I have purchased two landwoners' tags in my life! One tag was for unit 15, and the other for unit 9. They were both cow muzzle tags.

The last tag,,, I purchased for unit 9, off of "Craigs List"! The freaking dude lived in unit 23, and had tags for unit 9!

That is not right!

I am guilittttie!

Wapiti Bob, Thinks he owns unit 34! He views it like a stock. He can transfer the tag etc. WHAT A JOKE!

This Landowner System is like the mob!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-10 AT 03:30AM (MST)[p]There must be a dozen "this is how it needs to be" posts on here.

If the Game dept did make a change 11 of you would still be pissed off.

Just remember ElkMan, I'm watching you...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-10 AT 05:33AM (MST)[p]How many residents out there really know how to apply? I mean know how to structure their application where they can draw, studing area stats and hunt codes and I don't mean in the oryx or antelope draws. Supply and demand are currently killing anyone from drawing in those pools. Example: take all the NR antelope permits and throw them back you will see that odds increase a mere 2%. There is simply not enough to go around.

I have seen many a NM resident app applying for elk like these examples. 16D rifle, 16A rifle, 16C rifle and complain, I can't draw. I have seen guys go in on a party app for the Sergent, not going to work. I've seen guys that apply for a decent unit with decent odds 1st choice, only to put units with terrible odds 2nd and 3rd and complain that they cannot draw. I'd contend that 60% of the residents don't have a clue how to apply. Its like they are playing a game of "go fish" when its a high stakes poker game. Unfortunately hunting across the US is like that and it has alot to do with supply and demand.

I've talked to the AZ residents. They hate the 10% quots. They want it all. But AZ residents but they also know that throwing all the NR's back in won't help much at all because AZ population is so huge and the numbers so small, it won't help.

There are units with spill over where a NR pool does not even get the 22%. Where do those tags go....the Residents. Look at the cow tag pools. How many NR's apply for cows? Very damn few...how many go to residents, I contend 95%+.

The NMWF is playing off the backs of bad news and folks that don't know how to apply to gain membership. Jeremy knows very well that LO permit system provides a second chance for folks to hunt....problem is he also know very few folks know how to play the application game so he is using to further membership. Oscar and Emery have been around a long time and they know exactly how to use the media and the system to meet their mission. There plan is very well thought out. I just hope there plan doesn't lock up more places to hunt.

Most residents don't want to try a new area to hunt. That is sad. If they apply for a 2, a 51, a 5B, a 22 as a second choice or third choice they would see some more of this beautiful state. They would get to hunt. No, they want their favorite place and when they don't draw they whine. Funny that seems to be a lot of the theme in this country....I'm entitled to it.

I say we must teach the residents how to play the app game. The department tries to in a feable fashion. I know residents that apply and draw every year. I know one guy who applied for 16B archery for 22 years and has drawn every year. Yes-as demand got worse he adjusted his app to the 1-10 timeframe and he still wins.

If you give someone a fish that will satisfy his one meal. If you teach a guy to fish you have fed him for a lifetime. Teach your fellow resident how to apply. Much better, if you don't get the game, you best learn yourself.
 
2 real good points. Like JFWRC said knowing how to play the game is 90% of it.

The last few years we had more hunts than we could almost handle in the family because we played the game well.

Put a tough hunt as a first choice and easier to draw 2nd and 3rd.

We do not do party apps, because if one person in the family draws a tag it is enough.

Have backup plans. As much as I think that the LO tags for unit wide is a flawed system there is always an option to buy a tag if you need to. Some are very cheap.

The other good point WapitiBob makes. There is major division as to what people think is a good system.

I can make the current system work. But, if we went to some kind of point system I would figure that out and make it work.

I think the important part is to increase quality and opportunity which is easier said than done.

Residents need a better deal. Like someone mentioned before. We are Non Residents in the other 49 states.

Bob, how can you own 34??? Elkman told me I owned it a long time ago. WTH, he didnt even tell me he took it from me and gave it to you!!! What a bunch of crap!
 
It is obvious that you are the type of person that will never be satisfied. This is a in-perfect world where you not always going to get what you want. I hardly ever post stuff on forums like this because of people like you. Stop crying and deal with it.
 
>It is obvious that you are
>the type of person that
>will never be satisfied. This
>is a in-perfect world where
>you not always going to
>get what you want. I
>hardly ever post stuff on
>forums like this because of
>people like you. Stop crying
>and deal with it.


If you are responding to my post, you need to take a reading comprehension course. Read it again real slow so you understand it.

I have no clue how you came up with your response.

In so many words I just said the I found a way to make the current system work for me and my family.
 
WB not everyone feels the same way as you do when it comes to hunting. I for one know that I could draw a crappy tag just to GO hunting, but as for me there is no gratification in killing a dink bull or deer! Any idiot should be able to kill a raggy 5 or 6 point bull or even a 150" buck! I've taken my fair share of lesser animals and personally don't want to waste my time or tag, especially if another sportsman in nm would love to just have that tag!
And I'm flabbergasted at how many people think that a point system will ruin their odds on these lesser tags!?! Not how it works. It just increases your odds every year you don't draw, doesn't mean you must have max points to win!
And stinky your idea to try to just take a few tags and try a bp system with them will fail miserably! It has to be all or nothing here. Your gonna get too many people trying their hand on their first choice then going in the regular draw with their second and third. Then your gonna get a group of anti's making up their own numbers to prove how its not working!



I just call em as I see em!
 
Tell you all what: if I score a decent bull this year on Unit 17, I'll retire from elk hunting and improve all your odds. And seeing as how I've now drawn an elk tag eight years in a row, that ought to help, right? So just PM me all your Unit 17 honeyholes and if it works out, I'll happily increase your drawing odds for next several years... ;-)

Seriously dudes, I know that Stinky knows what he's doing, and Paul and a couple others have said it, but it stills seems to go over most of your heads. But if you'll educate yourselves on how the current system works, you too can be hunting almost every year. That does not mean you'll be hunting the 16s every year, but in my opinion, hunting a hard unit is better than not hunting, increases your skills, and makes your successes all the more satisfying.
 
After reading more posts, it is apparent to me that the problem does not lie with the system, it lies with the individual. What it boils down to is that hunting means different things to different people. Filling the freezer would be nice, but if meat was the priority, I could certainly buy one or more calves (bovine) from a local rancher and have them butchered for less than I spend on arrows, rangefinders and all the cool gear. To me it is about getting out and enjoying the sport. And with the current system, I can do what I enjoy just about every year and appreciate the beauty of this magnificent state that I call home. I would love a few trophies on the wall and at some point I will get that opportunity with a primo public land hunt. If I want a rack on the wall so bad, I will not leave it up to the state draw to determine that. I will make it happen through a private ranch hunt. Now take someone elses perspective and they want trophy opportunities and won't waste their time on dinks or "crappy units". To each their own, but you will never find a system that caters to those kinds of needs on a regualr basis. That's what private ranches are for. The system as a whole needs to represent the majority, not the minority. I personally think the majority is the average joe who wants to hunt. Do your research and if hunting is what you want, it is readily available. If you want trophy, quality hunts every year or want to hunt your backyard unit, that is not and will never be the reality with any system. What we all have to realize is that this is a sport. We don't rely on hunting to provide for our families. If you say you do, you are kidding yourself. Add up what you pay for bullets, arrows, supplies, gas, lodging, etc and you could buy a years supply of meat. If you want an experience, it is there for the taking. If you want a trophy experience, it is available for a price. It's no different than anything else in life. Am I saying the system is perfect? No. It will never be. It is run by the government for gods sake. Take a step back, figure out the draw odds, make them work in your favor and get out and hunt.
 
Sounds great to me. But if you keep posting on this I think there will be a line of NM hunters that would like to meet you.
 
ELK777! your calling me out, on being a cry baby...

unlike you, i would rather apply myself to the situation at hand. rather then sit back and say (its not a perfect world. deal with it)
with guys like you sitting in there lazy boy and looking at the rainbows. things are only bound to get worst.

its not a perfect world. but, we do have the ability to change that. dont get me wrong, it will never be perfect. but, we have to try and make OUR state better for US!

and if not...

lets all play the drawing odds game and do nothing. as long as were hunting forkies and spikes in our 3rd choice area, right???
 
"OUR state.....better for US". I'll be hunting on
Federal BLM land which every legal citizen in
this country has equal rights to be there.
this land is your land , this land is my land from
California ........

Haz, are you from North Georgia, like around the
Chattooga river,,,, where they filmed Deliverance?
Beautiful country by the way.
 
EVILNR, obviously you cant read. Please revise post 53. You will find your answer there.

Did i offend you by talking about rainbows?

Is it because you are from San Francisco?

you my legal citizen friend are a pin head!
 
>ELK777! your calling me out, on
>being a cry baby...
>
>unlike you, i would rather apply
>myself to the situation at
>hand. rather then sit back
>and say (its not a
>perfect world. deal with it)
>
>with guys like you sitting in
>there lazy boy and looking
>at the rainbows. things are
>only bound to get worst.
>
>
>its not a perfect world. but,
>we do have the ability
>to change that. dont get
>me wrong, it will never
>be perfect. but, we have
>to try and make OUR
>state better for US!
>
>and if not...
>
>lets all play the drawing odds
>game and do nothing. as
>long as were hunting forkies
>and spikes in our 3rd
>choice area, right???
>
>


Well lets start with I never called you out, I just voiced my own opinion. If you don't like it why respond to it! I only wanted to bring attention to our draw system, how it's working, and WHY IT WORKS FOR ME. I draw a tag every other year in some (Q) units and in some (S)units that produce quality animals for me. Everyone wants to hunt the premier units and kill the biggest animals but that's not always going to happen. You need to make the best of what you get drawn for and that starts with doing you home work and hunting hard in the less desired units. That's the problem in today's hunting world we forget about the hunt and just concentrate on killing the biggest bucks and bulls. I want to have the opportunity to hunt in these units in the future. YOU START BRINGING IN THE WORDS (POINT SYSTEM) AND YOU ARE JUST ASKING FOR TROUBLE. I have friends in Arizona and Utah that come to hunt in NM because of our draw system. Some of them have not draw a tag in there home state for 10 to 20 years and they are residents. Do you really want that to happen to residents in New Mexico? I do agree that some of the land owner tag prices are outrageous. I do however think that the land owner permits are a good thing even for resident hunters. I rather have the OPPORTUNITY to at least dish out a few hundred bucks to hunt in less desired units if I can afford it. THE KEY WORD IN THIS POST IS OPPORTUNITY. Thank god that we still have that here in New Mexico!!!!!!!!!
 
EVILNR, obviously you cant read. Please revise post 53. You will find your answer there.

Did i offend you by talking about rainbows?

Is it because you are from San Francisco?

you my legal citizen friend are a pin head!

Native from New Mexico and proud of it. Sorry I made you cry. LOL
 
I'm confused. I dont even know who I offended.
Or why. I used to live in N.Georgia. God's Country.
Rainbows, post53, SanFrancisco??????
Is this some kind of test?
I dunno - I give up.
 
come on guys calm down a little here. me of all people have more reason to call someone out. a certain individual hits me at every corner. its called low class people. usually those guys arent educated and probably dont have all their teeth or marbles. let the blows go and keep it clean. or u can look at it like i do. there is such a thing as pm's for those who require ono on one real life forum discussions. just realize its totally classless when u fight like this. i think we are all better than that.



ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
To the imposter Stinky that just posted........ What did you do with the real stinyky????

I agree with Stinky on this one though, regardless of whether it was him typing or not.
 
Listen guy/gals

I have apparently offended a few people on here by maybe nothing more than a screen name and drawing a couple tags
when they didn't. I have apologized on another thread regarding
basically the same thing. I have been called a pinhead, been told to watch my front and my back and a few other things.Which is ok by me. But, apparently some can dish it out but cant take it in return.I've even had a response deleted now,and maybe rightfully so.

The NM forum is the best one on MM and I dont want any part of
ruining it so I will respectfully bow out and go back to lurking and quietly doing my thing.

Good luck to ALL in this coming hunting season, no matter where you're from.

Take care, God Bless

EVILNR
 
Nnwapiti I agree more with you more than you know! My ##### isn't that I can't get a primo unit every year, that's very unrealistic. My biggest complaint with nm is that after 10 years my odds of drawing one of the better tags are still as bad as they were last year! I'm fine with waiting 15 years for my certain chance of drawing that tag!
And as far as landowner tags are concerned yes I can afford any one I want here in nm, but for some one to want them done away with and then to buy one? I stand up for what I believe in and yes it is my decision not to support landowners or the nmg&f. Times are changing, hunts are getting harder to draw and nm needs to get with the program. Its only going to get harder to draw any thing here in nm!


I just call em as I see em!
 
i do like getting people riled up. but, i was just having some fun with it and toward the end, it did get out of control.

the New Mexico forum, is by far the best and funniest forum on MM!

we should limit non-residents to 10% on the New Mexico forum as well!!! LOL

J/K dont get all upset with that...
 
u offended someone? and u think anyone else cares? heck no offend away! i was just tryin to get back on topic. all u friggin thread jackers! now suck it up and come back. this forum has too many sissies. we need more complainers n here



ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
The economic impact of the NR hunter isn't lost on the decision makers.
The impact on Guides, Outfitters, LO's and small towns will make it nearly impossible to get any sizable reduction in tags.
 
Wow after reading all the posts, I'm really confused I really don't want to get into another points game if I don't have to.
Wyo Pts
Az Pts
Ut PTs
Co Pts
Ca Pts
Nv Pts
I'm getting friggen points game out.
NR that didn't draw a elk tag, But drew a Deer tag.
Would be willing to trade said Deer tag for a Bull elk tag in 52 or 51.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Regarding points (bonus or preference): the fact is there are more applicants than tags available everywhere. Points or any system different from our current random system are simply a way to try to "more fairly" reallocate tags so that the unlucky feel better at the EXPENSE of the successful applicants. In order to increase the odds of somebody, you have to decrease the odds of somebody else.

As a resident, I'd rather know I have a fair shot at a tag every year, same as everybody else, than know for certain I had nil or nearly no chance of a tag for a half a dozen years. (For NRs, point systems may have some sort of merit in that they can begin to plan when they will draw and schedule vacation and applications in other states accordingly.)

But for the most part, all point systems do is guarantee you WON?T draw for X-number of years.

The beauty of our system in NM is everybody has an equal shot; regardless of whether or not you drew a tag last year or, for instance, had to sit out the draw for a year due to financial reasons or perhaps a successful draw in another state and limited vacation.

In states with points, if you need to sit out for a year for any reason, you just moved backward in the line for tags.

The biggest complaint I hear is ?bubba has drawn the last 3-years in a row and I haven't drawn in 5-years?. Well, for one, ?bubba? may actually study the draw odds and apply for hunts that are easier to draw. As I heard recently ?this isn't bingo, it's high-stakes poker, and application choices should be selected accordingly?.

And second, if one plays the game consistently the odds will even out. Bottom line: our current system is the fairest way to allocate limited tags?don't change it.

If you want a point system...there are plenty of other states to appy in and play the game.

If Stinky can convince G&F/Game Commission to take some tags from LOs all the better...but I doubt it's gonna happen.
 

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