Colorado DOW and Elk?

[Rem308]

Who thinks the DOW elk population estimates are correct? Over the last 4 times I have hunted elk,I have saw a total of 22 animals.This is in an rea that has over a 30% success rate,or so they say. Other hunters in the same unit have seen less than me. What do you think?

 

[pissoncoloradoDOW]

Ive lived in colorado for 32 years,this might be the worst year as far as deer and elk populations in the gunnison basin.The D.O.W counts are way off.The winter kill is way worse than they are saying.Everyone that i have talked to says the samething.The D.O.W. says the locals are lying,there are plenty of deer and elk.The locker plants are not seeing the animals,and the hunters are not seeing.One more winter like last year,all the deer will be dead.The mortality of the elk was alot higher than the D.O.W. lets on.90% of the sheds i found in the basin were winter kill.

 

[sageadvice]

My best buddy and long time hunting partner again hunted archery in the same South Western area he's hunted for at least 15 years. It's a over the counter tag but he always manages to get his bull. Not this year. He claimed to only see one group of Elk even though he hunted almost the whole season. Normally, he says that there are Elk in near every basin. Again, not this year.

He does not know why it was like it was . One reason that he supposed could be true was that there was so much snow early, the Elk never made it to the high country above timberline that he normally hunts. Another was a major die off from the winter but he's not sure of that either. He did report seeing a fair number of nice muley bucks, no monsters like some years but, he and a couple buds did tag out on "good" muleys on their muzzy hunt. He's not sure why he was seeing deer yet the Elk just weren't there.

Joey

 

[jims]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-08 AT 09:46AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-08 AT 09:44?AM (MST)

Obviously full moon, no snow, hot temperatures, winterkill make it a lot tougher and hunter success will likely be down. Conditions change from year to year so you need to somehow adapt your hunting strategy to the conditions and do the best you can!

I believe most of the elk harvest stats the CDOW compile are from either phone questionaires or field checks? I would have to say that some of the best hunters that really know how, when, and where are in the 80 to 100% harvest range every year no matter where they hunt and what the conditions. Other hunters that aren't willing to put in the time, patience, boot leather, shoot straight, etc are in the 0 to 10% range and may never harvest an elk! Other hunters may not harvest because they are being picky and don't want to shoot a young, immature animal. No matter what the case, it usually comes down to working super hard and being at the right place at the right time!

It is pretty obvious that the CDOW manages their elk and hunters for quantity rather than quality (experience and animals). If you have any complaints I would take it directly to the CDOW and be sure to fill out their surveys. I for one enjoy a quality experience with the possibility of getting quality animals rather than hunting with the masses of orange for spike to raghornish size bulls!

 

[NickJ1980]

We went 0/4 on elk for the second year in a row, in a unit that has a 25% success. It would be easy to blame the DOW, but in all honesty that's just how hunting goes.

Coloradans have it made. I say that from having experienced other states that either have very poor hunting experiences (UT general deer and elk) or great hunting with poor opportunity (UT LE elk).

I'm very satisfied with almost all of my CO hunting experiences and moving here was one of the best things I could have done as far as big game hunting is concerned. Yes, I'm very happy with the status quo, and there's nothing wrong with that. Those who agree with me should let the DOW know before the squeaky wheels get "fixed" and screw it up for the rest of us.

 

[Rem308]

I enjoy hnting Colorado and have for 27 years.It just seems that over the years the animals I see havebeen fewer and fewer,but the DOW numbers seem to stay the same.I know there are alot of varibles in hunting ,but it seems there are fewer animals in the area I hunt and on the other hand there are a lot more hunters there than there was years ago.This could be a factor in the animals for sure.

 

[jims]

I think all of us would agree that there is not an unlimited supply of elk (and public land) in Colorado! Will unlimited general tags in Colorado last forever or some day will the CDOW wake up and at least put a cap on it? If I was a nonresident that paid $529 for a tag, $3.00/gallon in gas, etc I would be a little pieved arriving to troops of other hunters in the field! Colorado is a gorgeous state but I don't think it would be worth the drive and expense to see so much orange!

 

[earthman]

This is always a great discussion. I have to be a little careful as I write this because as I think back and the last time I did not put an elk in the freezeer was probably 1997, now that is between my wife and I, but I am 6 for 6 after this year.

I am no expert but I did start off as a Wildlife Biology major in college before changing to Ag Business so I somewhat understand models and how they estimate the populations. Now if someone can figure out how to count them individually without haveing to increase tag fease by 12x then the DOW would like to talk to you. So, I beleive their numbers are close...give or take 20%.LOL

Now..with that stated, lets talk about why you don't see elk. And this is just my theory! We are now 7-10 years into Dec cow hunting, at least here in South Central CO, average life of a bull in an OTC unit is probably 3-6 yrs old with a few surviving to 8-9 maybe and cows 8-12 yrs old. Now with the Dec hunts and the conversion of youth tags to hunt open seasons for cows (which I think is great, because they are the future) we are chasing elk from the end of Aug thru the 31st of Dec and don't forget about Jan 31st on PL. Ok, now the term natural selection comes into play, now 5-10 yrs into being chased for 4 months straight you have elk that are staying in deeper, darker, nastier places and coming out later and going back in earlier than they used to. It's not just something that happened overnight, in my own experiences I have watched it in my hunting grounds over time! The elk have changed...has the hunter? Now there could be another topic! Again...this is just my theory!

I am not defending the DOW. I am not sure what the answers are but I do know I love to hunt elk every year, but I hate waiting 6 yrs to hunt Unit 76 but you can't have both...quality and the oportunity to hunt quality every year...so therefor you sit at home for 6 yrs and complain that you can't get a tag and then hunt once or you go out every year and spend a week in Gods country and hope luck is on your side and you see or maybe even get a shot at an elk. And I do meen LUCK...cause thats a good part of me being 6/6!!! And it is all part of the experience!!!!!!

Eric

 

[archery1088]

Well i have mixed emotions about the whole thing . While i think everyone should do there homework "Like in the gunnison basin were the snow fall was unreal last year"and that means a lot of mortality ,so don't don't put in for that unit when looking for a good place to hunt.But on the other hand the cdow shouldn't flat out lie about the number of deer and elk killed.They just want money from as many hunters as possible,so they will tell you that the mortality rate is real low. They aren't going to tell you the truth and take money from there own pockets ,so as hunters we need to make our own judgment and if u want to listen to cdow that is up to you.

 

[NickJ1980]

earthman--I agree with a lot of what you said and we have similar backgrounds in education.

I think the elk have changed some because I've been seeing smaller herds that are more spread out. I'm used to seeing herds of 20-30 cows and several bulls during the rut, but lately it's been 4 or 5 cows with one bull but you find that in every other canyon. Hunters have definitely changed with technology (ATV's, better calls, etc). IMO it's not that the elk are hiding in any darker holes, its that there are less people pushing them out of those holes.

Should I even bring up unrealistic expectations from watching so many hunting videos? I fall into that trap every year until I remind myself that I'm on public land hunting smart elk...

The DOW has been saying for at least 2 years that many GMU's are reaching their population objective (they were too HIGH), and that tag #'s would be going down and hunting may be harder. Add any above average winter kill and it's easy to see where the frustration comes from. We've had too many elk, and are probably spoiled a little.

I expect to see the OTC tags either get capped or for more units to become limited, and I expect to see fewer list B licenses in the future.

 

[jims]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that elk will move until they find a place where there is little to no pressure. Obviously in units that are 100% public land the majority of elk will go to the steepest, nastiest, most remote areas they can find but in areas with some or a lot of private land...where do you think they will go?

The CDOW has been faced with trying to keep elk numbers in check when it may be nearly impossible when elk find sheltor on private land where little to no hunter access is available.

Obviously with hunting seasons opening in August and running through mid-November elk have very little time to relax and wander...add December cow hunts...and the saga continues!

 

[usa]

that's why they call it hunting some years can be a real bummer for various reason's, last year it was the warm weather and it looks like this year (at least 3rd season WILL BE THE SAME )ROCKETMAN POSTED PHOTOS OF A HUGE HERD IN 76 SO THEY HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE , WE JUST HAVE TO REFINE OUR TACTIC'S AND FIND THEM, I WOULD EXPECT COLORADO TO GO TO FULL DRAW SOON AS THEY DID WITH DEER, I WONDER HOW THE DOWN ECONOMY WILL AFFECT THE SALE OF TAGS NEXT YEAR, I PAID $1000+ IN WYO, $500 + FOR COLORADO AND $300+ FOR TEXAS THIS YEAR BUT WON'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD IT NEXT YEAR UNLESS THE ECONOMY DOE'S AN UNLIKELY QUICK TURNAROUND.

 

[CCMuleyHunter]

I hunted unit 66 two years ago on the third rifle season for deer and had seen over 100 bucks a day and I had the hunt of a lifetime. It was like the good old days my grandfather had told me about.
I was passing through the area last week and went to some of my favorite honey holes that I had seen some great bucks at just to take photos, but after 4 hours of spotting, I was only able to scrounge up a doe and a fawn. I think the winter kill was way worse than the Colorado DOW is letting on and I talked to several ranchers after my experience and they both felt that they had lost 90% of their deer and 50% of their elk. If you have a tag in the gunnison basin, good luck to you and please report on your hunt.
I think it is a great time to build points as we know Colorado will for sure rebound as it always has.

 

[Skeet]

Eric,
Your belief of OTC bulls average age of 3-6 years is not even close. 90% of the 2.5 year old bull elk are killed every year in OTC units.

 

[earthman]

Skeet, thanks thats good to know. Does that stat include units that allow spikes and what is the overall age average of bulls killed. And do you know an age on cows. Just wondering?

Eric

 

[CCMuleyHunter]

I think that we won't see the truth out of the CDOW ever since any hit to their revenue stream is going to cause a budget shortfall which would mean that they would have to cut back elsewhere. We know that isn't going to happen.
If any of you out there are planning on spending huge dollars on a landowner tag or burning a bunch of points, I would recommend that you spend a few days in the unit this year or the year prior to your planned hunt to make sure you don't get had by the CDOW or brokers that are creating a a false market. There are a lot of landowners in the region that will gladly tell you the truth. I have heard from some landowners that the Gunnison Basin lost as much as 90% of their deer and 40% of their elk and based on what I have seen over there, it probably isn't much of a stretch. Lots of folks will be hitting the hills this coming weekend for the 3rd season opener and the weather is turning so it will be good to see some feedback from those guys to confirm what most of us are already thinking. The CDOW has gotten lucky with the first couple of seasons being super hot and dry, but their luck has run out with 3rd season. Please post what you are seeing and good luck hunting.

 

[MrKrabs]

I must be the only person that's hunted this year that saw quite a few mule deer and elk. A huge majority of what we saw were on private land of course, but we still saw a good number of elk and deer this year.
We got a glimpse of one buck that looked to be a monster and quite a few bucks in the 20-24" range. We weren't hunting for mule deer so I wasn't actively searching for them on public land.
Out of the 90+ elk we saw I think 10-15 were on public land when we saw them. We talked to the wildlife manager in the area and he said his partner had seen a herd of about 30 on public land opening day. We checked it out and the place was worn out with road hunters by the third day.

 

[NickJ1980]

Let's hear some ideas on how to come up with accurate, economical, scientific winterkill estimates...Without waiting for the following year's winter counts or relying on anecdotal evicence.

I guarantee if this year's winter counts show that last year's winter kill was as bad as some claim (90% deer, 40% elk), opportunities will be cut further.

It was tough hunting statewide this year, but some of us don't have anybody to blame but weather and luck.

 

[4000fps]

I think the DOW has overestimated the elk herd numbers for years. I am not one to buy into conspiracy theories, but I think it is simple marketing to lure in non-residents.

I have hunted elk since 1985, and have not noticed an exponential increase in elk numbers, like they claim.

Like was posted prior, the elk pile onto private when the shooting starts.

Also, I have never understood why the DOW doesn't do mandatory check in of harvested animals, like Nebraska does. Just make the license merchants do it, then they would have an accurate harvest count, instead of relying on statistical sampling.

 

[MrKrabs]

I agree there should be some kind of checkin process. In VA we're allowed to check in by phone, internet, and I believe check in stations. Although I believe check in stations are almost a thing of the past.

 

[4000fps]

When I hunted NE a few years ago, you had to check in your kill, they took down the location of the kill etc, and put a metal band around the antlers. If you didn't have that metal band, you were in trouble.

I just drove into a gas station, the person came out, marked it down in a book, put the band on, and I was on my way. It literally took 5 minutes.

 

[mntman]

I completely agree, every state should do a madatory reporting of sucess yeah or neah. Doesn't matter if it's a trophy unit or not. Every big game species should be this way to maximize the accuarcy of #'s!
If I'm not mistaken most eastern states are this way, I know MN is. Western states are just lazy to not do this. (generally speaking)

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

 

[contender]

Harvest stats in CO are worthless unless you break it down to animals harvested on public vs private land. That will never get done if Colorado Wildlife does the figures. That would tell the license buyer the real odds of success on a public land hunt. Areas that boast a 30% harvest might be a 100% private land harvest and a 4% public land harvest. As far as elk numbers go I see more elk than I used to but I also hunt a lot harder and farther from the roads than I once did.

 

[Califelkslayer]

The group of guys I ususally hunt 1st rifle with had filled 55 of 57 elk tags from 01 thru 06 (mostly cows) The last 2 years they went 2 for 6 and 5 for 7 respectively. Down significanTly but is 33% percent or 60+% really that bad. This years 5 for 7 was 4 bulls and one cow. 2 cow tags went unfilled plus they left the 4th morning. Colorado has been trying to get their elk numbers down for 8-10 years. I think they're there but that'll help other units when they get a winter like the Gunnison area got last year.

I hunted a primo archery area less than 100 miles west of the Gunnison and I rate that hunt as fantastic. Not as many cows as I expected but whose ever hunted elk 15 straight days and heard multiple bulls bugling every AM and PM?? And @ noon, And @ 3:30 PM with temps in the 70's and a full moon??? Simply "FANTASTIC"

 

[wannaBelkhuntin]

I hunted SW Colorado during the Archery season. When I stopped to get fuel in the local town a local hunter was getting fuel and he told me that the DOW was full of crap on their estimates [as I recall they were saying the Muleys were hit hard and the Elk not as bad for the winter kill] He told me it was the worst winter kill for Elk [except for 97 I believe it was] he had seen in the 20 years he had lived there, and that the Muleys had not done nearly as bad as they had said. This was also reaffirmed by other locals I talked to.I found the Elk scarce,I had days were I didn't even see a track that was less than several weeks old. I did find a nice group of bachelor Bucks and got a nice Muley on opening day of muzzleloader season. So I believe the DOW was less than honest in there numbers so they could get my dollars [almost 900.00] I would have gone anyhow, but I might have gone someplace else had I known the truth.

 

[jims]

Colorado requires all goat, sheep, moose hunters to fill out a manditory questionaire/survey after their hunts. If hunters don't complete this they are not eligable for future draws. Obviously there aren't near as many sheep/goat tags as elk or deer.

Some states have surveys sent in or conducted on a website. Some of these are manditory (NV) others are not (WY). It wouldn't be too terribly tough for the CDOW to look at other states and use these same systems?

I have been phoned several times in regard to harvest surveys for deer, elk, and antelope here in Colo. They are pretty basic questions. It would great to add questions like did you hunt and/or harvest on public/private land, or other questions that may help biologists? Obviously it takes $ to conduct any survey but seems like it would be a pretty simple and thorough process?

I haven't been too overly impressed with the CDOW's system of monitoring game population/numbers...although I don't know all the details and specifics. Most of the sheep/goat numbers are virtually the same from one year to the next...some have hardly changed in 20 years...which doesn't seem right?

One problem the CDOW is faced with is setting tag quotas in late winter/early spring before they know exactly how many critters make it through the winter? Hunters like to apply and get draw results early but in years with super bad winters it is hard to know what will happen before tags are allocated?

 

[Bambistew]

A friend of mine had a sheep tag last year down by Gunnison... He did a lot of reserch and make lots of calls while reserching for the hunt. The DOW flat out told him they had no idea how many sheep where in his unit, nor did they have anyway to find out with out spending a lot of money. We spent 6 days hunting, and saw about 12 ewes and lambs, he spent over 20 days hunting the unit and never saw a legal ram.