Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

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Oneye

Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-15 AT 07:50PM (MST)[p]With a shortage of expo and conservation tag threads I thought another one would be beneficial. This thread I would like to address questions that should have to be answered to by the Utah DWR and SFW and MDF. We're is all the money you should be accounting for?

The conservation permit proceeds get broken into 3 categories:
-10% retained by the organization for adminstrative costs
-30% given straight back to the DWR
-60% retained by conservation group to use on DWR approved projects

The 60% must be spent within 2 years on projects, but the 60% has not been accounted for from SFW or MDF from what I can see:

First let's look at SFW:

2013 auction tag revenues $1,083,725
60% required to be used in conservation - $650,235
Actually spent on conservation in 2014 - $397,586
That leaves $252,649 that is not accounted for that is required to be reinvested.

Now let's look at MDF:

2013 Auction tag revenue- $971,285
60% of the auction tag revenue required for conservation work - $582,771
Actually invested back into conservation-$311,897
That leaves $270,874 that is not accounted for that is required to be reinvested.

Now projects don't always get completed or approved by the end of each year and there may be a shortage of projects during a given year which could leave $10-20,000 that may be reasonable to carry over to the next year for projects, but this has been the norm. They have continually not accounted for these extra funds and there has been no year I'm aware of where an amount was spent exceeding revenue gained off the tags. At some point there should be a lot of extra spending in a given year to make up for all the money unaccounted for. There is not. All of this information is available on the DWRs conservation permit page and these numbers are troubling. Where is all the money?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-15 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p]Well they get to keep 10% for themselves and $3.50 off of every application, plus $10-$20 entry fees at the expo, plus booth space, I mean really? How much money are they pocketing. They aren't even accounting for funds they are required to account for, and I'm expected to believe that $3.50 is being used wisely? I mean being short $100,00-$200,000 a year from each organization they should have enough required money to fund about any project and pay to protect a ton of land for our wildlife. Let's get that money spent on conservation easements MDF and SFW, time to get that money on the ground..... Oh wait you mean you don't have it?
 
I posted something pretty much like this, on another threadfor birdman to answer. Same questions and still no answers.
 
REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

First of all I do not have all the answers. If I did you mm people would only believe what you want. This was brought up in a board meeting before. If the monies has been earmarked by the division for a project but that project has been delayed for some reason. That money may show up in the account but has been promised or ear marked. That is probably what you are talking about. The question is, every fall the division goes before the Board and shows the results of their audit that they preformed on all conservation groups including rmef. There is an explanation as to what and where the money was used, and what is pending. If you would go to that meeting you would have your answers taken care of. The law is followed by the Dwr to a tee. You can complain,call the news etc but nothing is under the table which has been shown over and over again. Good luck trying to find a dishonest act with any of this. Do keep trying though.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-15 AT 11:08PM (MST)[p]You can't BS your way through $500,000 not accounted for between 2 groups in one year. The problem is there is never a surplus. If what you are saying was true, eventually you would see an excess amount spent on a given year. It wouldn't be every year, but if your under some years you should be over on others to account for what you didn't spend years before. It has never happened, there is no years where extra money has been spent. Which leads to the question of where is all this extra money year after year that is not accounted for? I asked the DWR director about it in my email, he avoided the topic all together. You can't ever get straight answers of why there is such a shortfall. I'm sorry, but there is not record of why there is such a difference between what's spent and what's required to be spent. Also by state law these funds must be spent within 2 years, according to DWR information that is not happening.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Has to be spent or accounted for within the time frame..it is and all accounted for. Because you are too lazy to not check all out you will never know the truth. Call the division and have them explain. There is nothing cracked but keep trying. You will never prove anything wrong but the fact you don't have any idea what is going on.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

State law:

(ix) retained revenue must be completely expended on or committed to approved eligible projects by September 1, two years following the year in which the relevant conservation permits are awarded to the conservation organization by the Wildlife Board. Failure to commit or expend the retained revenue by the September 1 deadline will disqualify the conservation organization from obtaining any future conservation permits until the unspent retained revenue is committed to an approved eligible project.




At this point they should have 5 years worth of money built up that is committed to projects. Now where is the list of projects this money is committed to? If it isn't committed to projects there's a lot of money that by state law should have been proven spent by now. Maybe you better look a little more careful, you don't even know the law on the issue, let alone where the money has gone.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Birdman,

I don't get into this stuff very often but if you believe for one second folks are going to trust the Division, which from afar appears to be ran by SFW is crazy. I have said this for years. There will be prison time in the end of this fiasco. Too much influence peddling going on and if you can't see that, it is going to be rough on a few.

For the rest of you my suggestion is to focus on the division of fish and wildlife and not SFW. You should be asking your governor, senators and representatives to get involved and separate SFW from decision making inside the Division.

Rich
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Like I said, it's all accounted for. Instead of guessing what has happened learn the truth by calling the dwr. If you really wanted an explanation you would do it. If you don't want to know but keep guessing in your own small world of not trusting anyone cause of the way you are then that is your right. Frankly I don't care. I have taken the time to learn. I have attended the meetings and learned the facts. I don't have to guess. You should try the same.
I have told you what is what. Now I am going to enjoy the season and relax. You guys in joy your what ever you want to call it. MERRY CHRISTMAS
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

I've asked, and when pressed on the issue I never get a full answer. Sure they're not going to come out and say it's not accounted for deal with it. The DWR director won't even give a full answer. Drinking the koolaid being served is different from having hard proof of where the money has gone. You're drinking koolaid, I'm looking for actual audits and proof of where this money has been accounted for.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

What other answers do you expect from a guy that's on the SFW payroll like Birdman is! He has to keep coming up with all these BS answers to try and ease the situation or the Don might fire him from his paid position. Tell me you aren't a paid employee of SFW Birdman!
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

On eye and griz, thanks for pointing out the lack of money going on the ground. Griz I took time to look at the pages you put the shortcut up for. Now as I said before you guys are not figuring it right. But then let's say you are. RMEF sold $334.995 in permits, they put $151,300 back on the ground. I guess the other $183,695 went in their pockets. You know figures never lie.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-15 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]You're looking at the total amount, you're obviously not smart enough to understand how the money is broken down. Better review your figuring.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>You're looking at the total amount,
>you're obviously not smart enough
>to understand how the money
>is broken down. Better review
>your figuring.


Birdman has also skipped right over my request for an answer asking if he is a paid employee of SFW. All I asked was a simple yes or no and it's been pure silence on that and just more BS like his last post telling everyone he knows things that none of the rest of us do!
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

I'm pretty sure he is on the payroll for the Dwr also!
hornkiller.jpg
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

My goodness. I honestly feel bad, I can't imagine living everyday with so much parinioa. I can't even begin to wrap my head around it, scary stuff.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

It would seem that you concerned resident Utah hunters could start putting pressure on the 5 Regional Advisory Councils and then go to the 7 member Utah Wildlife Board to get an accounting of the purported missing and or unaccounted funds.

Surely there is someway to get a true accounting for this hot topic. With 68 RAC members and 7 UWB members, I'm certain they are not all bought and paid for by the SFW. If all of the accusations are true there is either some brain dead members on the above boards or the SFW is really good at hiding and pulling the wool over their many eyes.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-15 AT 02:46PM (MST)[p]I don't know what happens with the moneys made via the Expo,,,,

BUT the amounts that ARE being made are nothing, not rally enough to be even argue over.

Probably the best thing for Utah wildlife is to take those tags set aside for the auction,,build a camp fire with them, and every body gather around and sing CUMB BY YA.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>I don't know what happens with
>the moneys made via the
>Expo,,,,
>
>BUT the amounts that ARE being
>made are nothing, not rally
>enough to be even argue
>over.
>
>Probably the best thing for Utah
>wildlife is to take those
>tags set aside for the
>auction,,build a camp fire with
>them, and every body gather
>around and sing CUMB BY
>YA.


Are you kidding me?! They gross over a million dollars a year on average just on the $5 application fee for each of those 200 tags and are Keeping $3.50 from each one. That alone is $700K before tallying up entrance fees, booth fees, etc., so if you call that "not enough to even be arguing about" you must be a millionaire with money to burn!
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-15 AT 07:35AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-15 AT 07:24?AM (MST)

After reviewing the monies concerning these tags with the two links that were shared (thank you),by looking at the fiscal year 2014 Conservation Permit Revenue and Number of Permits by the most discussed Organizations on this thread, and by subtracting out the Conservation Funds spent on FY 2014 Projects, which is money that is put back on the ground, the numbers show:

2014 ONLY
SFW pocketed 876k and funded 68 projects
MDF pocketed approx 660K and funded 59 projects
RMEF pocketed approx 185k and funded 53 projects

I don't support nor represent any of these groups but I can say by looking at these numbers.....for at least 2014, which groups did alot and which groups should have done more.

If SFW is really as what their title says "Sportsmen for fish and wildlife"...you'd might wonder why they wouldn't actually contribute more.






Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-15
>AT 02:46?PM (MST)
>
>I don't know what happens with
>the moneys made via the
>Expo,,,,
>
>BUT the amounts that ARE being
>made are nothing, not rally
>enough to be even argue
>over.
>
>Probably the best thing for Utah
>wildlife is to take those
>tags set aside for the
>auction,,build a camp fire with
>them, and every body gather
>around and sing CUMB BY
>YA.

And yet $FW fights, bribes, etc to keep it, so either they are stupid, or your just plain wrong.

Now, I am married to an accountant for a fortune 50 company that services most of the other fortune 50 companies. At any given point in the day she can see receivables, payables, cash, and check revolvers(credit), and can do so on a tablet. The reason $FW cant is simply because they don't want to. As has been stated over and over, the answers to all this is a pretty simply spread sheet.

Line #1: TOTAL INCOME(everything)
Line #2: PAYABLE(required funding of projects)
Line #3: LIABILITY(project earmarked for funding not yet done)
Line #4: PROFIT(Line #1 minus #2 and #3).

When they and DWR put out these multi page documents and numerous accounts, it is because they WANT confusion. The only reason to do accounting like this is to hide, shield, money. $FW obviously feels that the bad PR they get for playing this game is preferable to the PR they would get by being open, otherwise there is no reason to spend the time and money to "dirty" the water. I for one don't think $FW is stupid, or foolish with money, in fact I believe just the opposite.

Don't buy into the BS. At your house you know how much you make, how much you spend, and how much is left, and so does $FW.

Lastly, when one of my kids does something stupid, and then pulls the "but so and so did something worse", it absolutely doesn't work. Why are we now talking about MDF or RMEF? I know MDF is part of the cancer, but answering a question by point out someone else, DOESN'T answer the question.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Birdman you are making yourself look foolish. sfw is a joke to the public eye maybe it's something you guys should own and try to fix that's a thought. But your guys m.o has always been we don't care about the public's input. So why even come on here and try to defend it.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Topgun, Most upper middle class familys could come up with a million dollars in short order if they had to. A million dollars is not that big a deal these days. The average joe buys a $50000 dollar truck with out even batting an eye for god sake.

Don't you think the wildlife populations the SFW is trying to help would be bigger if all the expo tags they get,, never resulted in those animal being harvested?

Or maybe you think that the SFW's conservation projects have produced more animals every year than the expo tags have taken out. Would that that not the true measure of their success?
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>Topgun, Most upper middle class familys
>could come up with a
>million dollars in short order
>if they had to. A
>million dollars is not that
>big a deal these days.
>The average joe buys a
>$50000 dollar truck with out
>even batting an eye for
>god sake.

and pay's on it for 8 years while living paycheck to paycheck.

This is by far the stupidest justification I have ever heard. Gotta love mm.


Justin
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>ID_Elk
>You don't know how 100% correct
>you are.
Oh so someone has shown where the missing monies went and I missed it? Fill me in?

Justin
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

I thought stupidity had reached its height, but you just raised the bar a little higher. What world are you living in?
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>ID_Elk
>You don't know how 100% correct
>you are.


Show me where the damn money is. I've contacted the DWR and SFW..... All I've gotten is crickets. Nothing... Nada... If there was nothing to hide they would easily be able to verify where these funds are, even if they are not spent, simply where they are accounted for. I filled out a GRAMA request form, we'll see what info I get with that. I'm done listening to individuals blindly follow and defend an organization they have when they have no audits or statistical data to back up their stance. There is money being made on 100% owned public resources and I expect to know where 100% of that money is spent. Hell if you work for the state, county, or any government your salary and wages are available to everyone on this planet. SFW and the DWR are going to account for that money at some point, and the mess will unravel.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

The missing monies as you so call it, and all organizations have it, is turned over to the dwr at the end of the period. There will usually be a difference between the projects and monies collected. Therefore at the end of the period a check is cut to the dwr for the remainder.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-15 AT 07:41PM (MST)[p]Proof? And over $200,000 a year? Show me the proof and where the money has been allocated to and I'll believe you. Why isn't this made clear to the public and why doesn't the DWR or SFW directly answer these questions?
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

>The missing monies as you so
>call it, and all organizations
>have it, is turned over
>to the dwr at the
>end of the period. There
>will usually be a difference
>between the projects and monies
>collected. Therefore at the
>end of the period a
>check is cut to the
>dwr for the remainder.

Bahhaaaaaa.
Justin
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Oneye, Don't expect you to believe me. You would not know the truth if it was in front of you. You can call the front desk of dwr all day. True they don't have a answer. Who did you talk to at sfw? I don't think you called. I called the dwr, talked past the front desk, see if know them, and got my answer. As you can see all groups have extra money not spent on projects. ALL groups are required to turn over the remaining money to the dwr. That is done in the former of a check. Now keep digging. You need your answer. I know what that answer will be. I just told you.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

So again you post and again you have no verifiable information. I emailed SFW I did not call. Ive gotten a little farther with the DWR but still don't have verifiable information of where the money is. I filled out a GRAMA request form that could take up to 10 days to get a reply on. If I find the information birdman I will post it here. I and many others want to see where the money has went, and I'm doing my best to find actual verifiable information of where it has went. There should be audits and such to verify where it has gone. I'm not saying you're wrong at this point, I'm just saying I don't see you posting any verifiable information on it.
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Hmmm,

Will be interesting to see what Oneye discovers in his
GRAMA request!----

Perhaps this is the answer as to how SFW presents the WB
with 300k checks? ( a bit of sarcasm there..)
;-)

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
RE: REha Conservation tag funds? Show me the money

Oneye-

I have focused my attention most recently on the Expo Permit issue but the following link may provide some of the information that you are looking for regarding Conservation Permits.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/board/2015-10_board_packet.pdf

During the Ocotber 1st Wildlife Board Meeting, the DWR provided a report regarding the Conservation Permit Program. The 2015 Annual Report begins on Page 72/129 of the packet. The Executive Summary for Conservation Permit funds is included on page 85/129. The DWR's Internal Audit of SFW begins on page 101/129.

Good luck.

-Hawkeye-
 
Thanks Hawkeye.

Pg 85 shows MDF is supposed to have cash on hand from the Expo funds in the amount of $1,562,322.20. Funds allocated to 2016 projects $535,776.00. SFW cash on hand from the Expo is $1,172,091.20 and allocated to 2016 projects $533,425.63.

Those are some pretty big numbers in year to year carry over. Nothing in the document states these funds are ever returned to the DWR. To the contrary, it shows the organizations are supposed to have those funds on hand.

All that is needed now is a financial statement from MDF and SFW showing where the money is living today. The issue then becomes bringing projects to them for funding.

Glad we do things differently here in AZ. AZGFD has all the money from the Expo in a separate account. The projects are brought forth by the sportsmen organizations describing the project, how much is being contributed by the organization and how much needs to come from the fund to complete the project. All done in open forums with participation of the public.

By the way, state law requires 100% of a funds generated from the sale of the tags be deposited with G&F. Not one penny can go to any third party.

"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Word of warning... the information you get from the state will be carefully groomed data from a comptroller... and NOBODY can hide money, tracks and lies like a comptroller. You will only receive the number they choose to give. All the rest will be smoke and mirrors.


Just my experience



[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
NVbighorn, and in that lies even a bigger problem. For one a child can spot that the expense numbers the DWR publishes for projects is a complete fiction. Notice the nice round numbers, 3000 for this project 8000 for that project. That is not how any real accounts payable works. Are these just estimates? Actual invoices for work are rarely billed in round numbers...Also consider this...That no one may be getting paid by SFW. Everything SFW collects could all be posted as pure profit. All of the SFW cronys who draw salarys could actually be getting paid from the 60% or the 30% as Project Managers overseeing the various "projects" I suspect lots of the 60% and the 30% actually goes to either SFW staff of even DWR staff. It would not suprise me to learn that only pennys on the dollar actually hits the gound after DWR and their private sector gravey maker SFW gets done splitting up the loot.
 
Trammer, you are something else. In the project lists it is rounded off but in the actual audit it is down to the penny. But then again with a person who has lost his guiding and hunting rights I can understand why you hate the DWR.
 
Birdman, arent you a little off subject? I think everyone here on MM would like to know how much a professional poster like you gets paid? how much of the money makes it into your wallet? The subject of this post is where the money goes. Because money is going to you that should be going to wildlife conservation. Is your salary a wise use of our conservation dollars? Birdman will you take a few minutes and help us reconcile your claim that posted numbers by DWR are estimates and that the audit shows actual money spent. I would like to see you get credit for actually adding to a discussion rather than attacking and changing the subject...Because you think attacking is fair play as well as changing the subject. Here is a low blow back your way. Are you aware of the yet to be adjudicated Mountain Lion your boss Don Peay Poached?
 
Actually its not a low blow because its based on a real poaching. Birdan you should familiarize yourself with the Perjured Testimony and ethics violations of DWR Officer Chris Rehea and Tate Larsen and the dozen or so lies that were made under oath by the DWRs paid witness in my case. Then we can talk about my suspension.
 
So I am not going to get into the name calling or jabbing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that the SFW is corrupt and the DWR are sackless jerks. But that aside here is my question to any of you SFW supporters.
It seems that revenue is pretty constant, and that the show seems to help bring a considerable amount of revenue to the SFW, so why does the SFW need to submit and receive grants from the Utah State Tourism board to fund the show? which is taxpayer money???

And yes I did a foia request and it does show it.
 

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