Contact DWR, no more SFW tags. DO YOUR PART

hossblur

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,681
SFW told all of us we were conspiracy theorists. We were all just jealous. We were sitting on the sidelines. We all heard it. Then the heat was turned up to the point that SFW busted out a dog and pony show. It sounded good, it calmed the storm. They have done nothing!! There are no odds for their tags, their is no line item accounting for money. Their is no transparency. SOOOOOOOOO, I have contacted all of the RAC members about doing away with SFW tags. SFW wants public tags to sell, but doesn't want any accountability. TOO DAMN BAD!!!! Do your part. These are our tags that WE gave them with the promise of helping wildlife. If they don't want to tell us what they did with OUR tags, they can give them back. A list of the RAC members and wildlife members e-mails are on the DWR website. We don't need to be rude, just a simple "SFW has done nothing to justify OUR tags so they should no longer get them" is good. They are already advertising for the expo next year, let them do it without OUR TAGS!!!
 
Living near Chicago all my life, I have seen more than my share of corruption. The fastest way to end this SFW/UTDOW corruption is get the local media involved. Open the can of rotten worms to taxpayers and everyone else, not just hunters. These people will be in each other's pockets until the media exposes them. Then the rats will run for cover.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the biggest portion of the money from the tags sold at the auctions go to the Utah DWR, Like 90%. They are generally referred to as SFW tags but aren't MDF, and FNAWS also a part a huge benifactor of these permits.
Don't get me wrong accountablitiy has always been a huge problem in conservation organizations, still my personal opinion is even with problems that some conservation groups have they are still 50 times more effiecent that any govt agency.
I don't have a say in this at all as I'm not a resident of Utah but I do like attending the show when I can and as long as the money is going to a good cause I don't see a problem with the permits.
 
That's right Fedup. The vast majority of the money goes to conservation projects. Some are sponsored by the DWR and some are chosen by the different conservation organizations like SFW and MDF. While I respect hossblur's oppinion (and don't disagree with some of it as well) I have to wonder where the funding for all the projects will come from if we get rid of the conservation tags. Will hunters be willing to pay triple to sometimes quadruple the price for a Central Region deer tag? I highly doubt it. You want to hear some complaining, try to match the funds that those conservation tags generate with license price increases. You will see a full blown mutiny. That being said, I would like to see a reduction in the number of conservation tags but not take them away completely.

By the way hoss, what day did you say you were showing up in camp for that fully guided elk hunt? I can't remember what we agreed on.;-)


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-10 AT 02:49AM (MST)[p]"I have to wonder where the funding for all the projects will come from if we get rid of the conservation tags."

There are a hell of a lot of states that have better game management than Utah without the necessity of 500+ auction/raffle/wealth tags.

I don't think you need a specific example because no other state has even close to that number!
 
I just sent my email. I asked for less conservation permits. I also asked that all hunting license fee's be increased to atleast match what the non residents are paying. If the Non res will pay that then so will the residents. 163.00 dollars for a deer tag to hunt the Henry Mountains? ARE YOU KIDDING? It should be 2500.00 or more up front to put in for units like these! All once in a lifetime hunts should be 3000+. Also stated that the use of credit cards in the draw should be eliminated and all fees should be charged up front. We can build interest on this money and use it for habitat. I also would like to see a habitat fee imposed on all hunting. This fee should be 10% of any and all hunting and fishing permits you may purchase or be drawn for through out the year. Also if you apply for any hunts you should have to pay a 25 dollar wildlife transplant fee. This fee would go to pay for transplants of wildlife. There should also be a 10 dollar fee to access and hunt or fish on any rehabilitated lands or waters.(chainings,reseeds,prescribed burns and reseeds, hunting within a set distance to any guzzler or water source provided with funds from hunting, stream and river habitat improvements)
I ask that only one or two permits be sold a year and a couple employees hired with these funds to police all the new additional money. This should eliminate the need for conservation permits and wildlife groups. I know you'll all agree.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-10 AT 12:04PM (MST)[p]ramtagless,
It would actually be quicker to name the ones that have worse management than Utah! But if you really need some examples.......try Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and yes Illinois (check out the short gun rut seasons).
 
NUNYA you must have won the lottery? I know alot of people that put in for a central tag and didn't get one. Alot of those people would pay double just to hunt a genral unit! but when there is no deer to kill and next year's plan it's not getting any better even with all the big money tags. i cover alot of ground in the central region and in the last 8 years i have seen no improvment on any level. Ya they make sure they keep the duck hunter's happy and salem pond stocked with guppies but has any body anywhere seen anything to help the deer out? i would love to see it if you do.
 
Yep I have seen it hornkiller, nope didnt win the lottery. Hunting is my passion and I don't have a problem paying for it. You shouldnt either.
I figure not many will want to cough up any money of their own to support wildlife habitat and wildlife transplants. However there are many who feel they are getting robbed and should speak out against those who are doing something and or spending their own personal money on it.
With my plan the money generated would be looked after by a couple public employees and would go to further wildlife habitat and wildlife. Yep it is going to cost you to hunt but hey its worth it isn't it? Someone has got to pay and according to many on this site the conservation permits are not working for us. Right?
 
>That's right Fedup. The vast
>majority of the money goes
>to conservation projects. Some
>are sponsored by the DWR
>and some are chosen by
>the different conservation organizations like
>SFW and MDF. While
>I respect hossblur's oppinion (and
>don't disagree with some of
>it as well) I have
>to wonder where the funding
>for all the projects will
>come from if we get
>rid of the conservation tags.
> Will hunters be willing
>to pay triple to sometimes
>quadruple the price for a
>Central Region deer tag?
> I highly doubt it.
> You want to hear
>some complaining, try to match
>the funds that those conservation
>tags generate with license price
>increases. You will see
>a full blown mutiny.
>That being said, I would
>like to see a reduction
>in the number of conservation
>tags but not take them
>away completely.
>
>By the way hoss, what day
>did you say you were
>showing up in camp for
>that fully guided elk hunt?
> I can't remember what
>we agreed on.;-)
>
>
>It's always an adventure!!!


I believe we agreed you were throwing one in for the "big mouth on the internet charity", so anytime is good for me!!!

Why can't the state auction off tags just like the groups do? it would be easier with smaller regions but why not let the SOutheast region auction off so many tags(or raffle) and the money stays in the region and must be 100% habitat related, no trucks or whatever. By doing that we wouldn't be paying the DWR and there biologists, staff, etc., and then doing the same for each group that gets tags. Just with SFW, MDF, RMEF, we pay for three presidents, 3 boards, 3 staffs, 3 of everything. Seems like we could just do the same through the existing DWR framework, ANDDDDDDDDDDDD.........with the government we have a little Freedom of Information act that makes the DWR show a line item for each dollar, does anyone else?? The "I don't like SFW but...... argument" SUCKS. The money spend on multiple staffs and front offices would be better served going to habitat. No I am no fan of the DWR, BUTTTTTT, the nice brown shirted guy that checks me out in the swamp all fall isn't pulling down 6 figures and hunting with Karl Malone "over thirty times." He doesn't make that kind of change, Don Peay does, Myron Bateman does, etc., etc.. Just in those 2 salaries the DWR can build 100 or more guzzlers, chainsaw how much juniper? Hell for that matter buy 5 trucks. And again, the DWr HAS TO SHOW WHERE THE MONEY WENT, does SFW??? Apparently not, because if they did it would be public, not hidden. HEY DON its called a spread sheet, there is one on your desk, just scan it in on your computer, should take about ten minutes!!!
 
After reading the list last year and seeing all the opposition to SFW and Don Peay I decided to look into the matter best as I could. I went in and found out how much some of the paid members get for doing what they do. I also looked at where the money went and for what. I compared wages with that of MDF and RMEF and the offices that are used and decided my money should be for SFW. No offices, they work out of their houses except for a storage unit to store things, and the wages were not even close to what RMEF or MDF were getting. Did you know that RMEF was building new headquarters worth about $18 million? Lots of habitat fixing there. SFW did the chaining of the trees in Spanish Fork canyon, Beaver, and at Fish Lake as well as other places. They had the reseeding projects there. The transfer of the Buffalo to the Book Cliffs, According to congress of the United States there are two active hunting groups fighting for your hunting rights. SFW and SCI. National Rifle association is fighting to keep the guns. I also learned that some of the wages that SFW people are getting are coming from private donations. I think that some of the people out there have lots of sour grapes to push on SFW and Don Peay. I found out he is not perfect but I also decided he does what he does for the love of hunting. He is financially set from the sail of his business he had and is promoting hunting because he loves it and and he likes the challenge of getting something accomplished. Now blast away.
 
If you look at there programs they do are on private land not public, look at the programs they have done and see how many are on private versus public they can have the expo tags as long as there are terms that they agree that every thing that is made on the expo goes into public not private. right now, they sfw are not transparent,with the money from expo.I was one those that thought the money went to public land projects!
 
Not a UT resident, so it is up to you guys what you do with SFW tags. None of my business.

BIRDMAN - Can you cite your source for this quote?

"Did you know that RMEF was building new headquarters worth about $18 million? Lots of habitat fixing there."

For making the case that you have done so much research about everything, I gotta ask:

Is it worth $18 million, or did it cost $18 million, or none of the above?

If it is now worth $18 million as you say, it was a great investment on their part, given what they paid for it. Would be good if you provided your source on such, as many of us would be interested to see what your source and data is.

Oh, and by the way, they are not "building it." It was completed a few years ago.

Have you ever been to the RMEF visitors center?

Do you know how they came in possession of the land that the facility sits on and makes up a large portion of the value?

Do you think the land was a donation with the requirement that it could only be used for a new visitor center, or maybe you think they went out and bought it?

Do you know where the money for the visitors center came from and what restrictions were placed on those donations?

Do you know RMEF is rated as one of the most effective charities in the country? Click here - I will help you out. http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4406

Do you know where SFW ranks on that list? Kind of figured so. And SCI is below RMEF on the list.

You sure you know about the entire amount of compensation paid to the SFW and SCI people from all their affiliated groups and covering all forms of compensation, such as wages, benefits, consulting fees, etc.?

Would like to see your numbers, rather than just your statement of such. I don't really care who gets paid whatever amount, as long as they are doing their job. I think if you looked at all the affiliated groups involved in SFW and all types of payments, you might change your numbers.

Not sure why you felt the need to kick the most effective western conservation organization we have, as your defense of questions people are asking about other unrelated groups, but your data seems to have some holes in it.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I know plenty of guys doing the dedicated hunter. there is not one that i have talked to that have done there true full hours! Most say they go for 3-4 hours then get marked down for 8-12 hours. last time i checked deer jump cattle fences with no trouble and with cattle on both sides of the fence how is that helping the deer? people taking a hour drive to deliver proclamations to walmart then marked down for 12 hours of service how is that helping are deer? dumping some gravel then put up some pine poles to make a parking lot for walk in access for duck hunters thats doing are deer herds very well! To tell you the truth the dedicated hunter is the biggest crock of s$@t out there! Shouldn't the service hours be for what there giving you the privledge of doing the DEER. so what makes you think more cash flow will do it? Every year i have been hunting prices go up with less deer to be seen so even with SFW,big money tags,raffle tags it isn't helping! No i don't need glasses i spend plenty of time in the feild and have only seen it get worse every year since i started hunting. The last ten years honestly have any of you seen genral units improve? Example last year a family member of mine killed a buck on the nebo unit 5 day rifle hunt they had check pionts on both ends the evening of the 4th day they went thru the stop point it was the fourth buck to come thru. I think all the big money tags and all the other lies have been spent very well don't you
 
I support RMEF, NWTF and NRA. SFW is a private club apprarently which is great and they can do what they want except when they take 200 tags from non-residents which is when they are over the line.
 
The conservation permits should not be in question. I was in the middle of those for about 10 years and it is pretty much legit. 90% goes back into projects in Utah and I am satisfied with that.

The HUGE problem is the expo tags. NONE of it is required to go back to wildlife. I know this for a fact because I created those tags with Don Peay.

That money can all be spent on salaries and bonus if they choose or ANYTHING else they want. Also that money has generated around $1,000,000 every year since its inception 5 years ago. Lots of bonuses and such paid out of that.

I was in the meeting that is was verbally agreed that a "significant" amount of that money would go back on the ground for wildlife. Seems that committment has been long forgotten.

Good luck on your fight. The transperancy has NEVER been there and probably NEVER will as long as certain people are in charge.

Track records have a funny way of telling the future.

Tony
 
There is just too much secrecy for me to be comfortable supporting SFW.

Birdman- I agree that you could let us know where you found your information, your numbers sound off to me from what I know about SFW.

And +1 Outdoors...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Just an FYI, SFW was already granted the tags for 5 more years, and they do a great job with what they have, seen more projects from them than any other group in the state of utah. They are the only ones present at RAC meeting as well.
 
You guys are still moaning about 500 wealth tags! Quit your freakin whining you bunch of bottle fed cry babies. Lets change states for a year. Lets see how you like NM!

Down here if you have 30 acres in the forest you are entitled to a unit wide elk tag for the hunting season of your choice. The more land you have the more tags you get. Heck, we give away 500 elk tags to landowners in one unit alone.

When you add up all the units we give thousands of your so called wealth tags every year. I would say our number is approaching 3 or 4 thousand!

So yeah you guys are spoiled and are gonna b!tch until you have no elk herds left.

You Utards take the cake! You think I moan and complain? Step back and look at all you whining brats for one day and see if it doesn't make your stomache turn.

What a joke, you have it good and you still belly ache!




ego participate in Monasteriense muleys proinde ego sum bardus (I participate on monstermuleys therefore I am stupid)
 
Stinky, I believe you are on the other side of the fence. Didn't you buy a "wealth" tag last year? Not that it's any of my business nor do I care I'm just sayin'
 
Utah gives out 110,000 deer tags. Plus 35,000 elk tags. Plus 5-8,000 draw permits (antlered/antlerless). Add in 50,000 upland game permits.

So we are at around 200,000 permits. Add $5 to each and earmark it for habitat (3.50 is already earmarked for habitat). That would generate $1,000,000 min. Then give one permit for each species per unit. That would be around 60-80 permits at $15,000 average = $780,000-$1,200,000. Then one Gov tag per species would be around 15 tags at $30,000 average = $450,000.

That reduces the Conservation tags from 350+ to less than 100. Money generated for wildlife is about equal. You save 10% from the overhead and would see an increase in price because supply decreased.

Now stop the Convention Permits or make them at least ear mark half of the proceeds for APPROVED projects.

Stinky-- Utah gives over 5,000 landowner permits every year. Then add in the 550+ tags given to Orgs and now you can look at the whole picture.

.
 
You are right. I went on the net and looked up the stuff that was public. I may not be perfect. Some of the info is for the year of 2008. Did RMEF have there building donated I can not say. I only know what it was classified in value. I have nothing agianst all the groups but I only know that SFW is the one everyone wants to pick on. As far as the pay scale that is paid to the leaders of these groups they all have multiple employees. Some are consultants. Different people for different things. RMEF head in 2008 was paid $194,187. SCI director was paid 122,415. NWFT was highest paid in 2008 with $360,765. MDF was paid $119,792. WSF CEO was paid $170,000. Dallas Safari Club $264,452. SFW Don Peay was paid $154,000. He gets no retirement or Benefits. I can not say on the others. Anyone can go and find out about these groups if they want to do the research as they are 501C3 organizations. It takes time but it is available to everyone. Every non profit organization is audited on a regular bases and if there is a problem they loose their non profit. Therefore all these groups are being honest with the way that they spend their money. All I am saying is that there seems to be lots of sour grapes out there agianst SFW. Look who is fighting the wolf war. Look how they are fighting it. Don Peay started the fight and since others have started in. RMEF new CEO has joined in with SFW in fighting it big time as have other groups. This will benefit all of us big time. It costs money to fight these things. So far things are getting done. Look at who is lobbying for the hunting and trying to get things done. I will shut up now but I have lots of respect for Don Peay and the war he is fighting and the hell that he catches from people. If anyone can do better go out and organize and make things happen for the better. If you are not attending the RAC meetings and putting in your two cents worth then you have no right to talk. I do hope that if people can do better I wish that they would. fishon has had lots of experience in these matters as he has said. He seems to know the ins and outs of the way these things work. Maybe he can do better. I am not trying to knock Tony but it seems there is lots of bitchin going on and no other people trying to make it better at the RAC ETC. If people out there can do better then they should and if they can I will jump on board and help them.
 
>Where do I get my 200
>non-resident Utah tags to jumpstart
>my organization?

Dang it. Just hold on one minute there, Outdoors! My organization needs NR tags to raffle too. I want the 200 first. Is there an online application or something to put down a reservation?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-10 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]Birdman:

Those are only some of the numbers. SFW (i.e. Don Peay) promised the numbers from the expo so that people could see where the (reportedly) almost one million dollars a year goes. The money from the expo has not been open to public scrutiny. Why? The numbers were promised and have not been delivered. The RMEF pulled out of the expo (as explained to me by people in the know) from the expo because the groups pushing for the expo (MDF and SFW) would not guarantee any money to wildlife. There is a lot of money that is not accounted for. SFW (i.e. Don Peay) promised the numbers in about a month, about four to five months ago. If you are from Utah please take a look at the number of tags and money that aren't accounted for! Where is the money, where are the tags?

I will be the first to say that conservation groups have done a lot for Utah, but I also have always lived by the ideal of "trust but verify". SFW is the head of the conservation groups in Utah. Therefore they take a lot of heat. Don Peay has always been the first to brag about what SFW and he himself have done for Utah, but he WILL NOT provide the information reguested and promised! Why? The numbers you posted do not include the expo. Why would that be? Ask the hard questions and see what you get as an answer. I would be willing to bet my Wyoming antelope tag that the answer from Don Peay will be... Last year XXXX dollars went to this and XXXX dollars went to that (very important to note that SFW will not state how much money they directly contributed to the listed projects just the total money spent on the projects). When SFW started there were X number of tags in Utah, now there are X number more of tags (again, SFW takes credit for this). The expo is a great opportunity for the hunters of Utah, and SFW fought to get the non-residents more OIL tags (only if they are willing to travel to the expo). Again, the simple question is why not open the records for the public to see if the money is being spent wisely? After a lot of time it appears more and more like where there is smoke, there is fire. Don Peay has the information that will stop all the questions, he has promised to release the information, but he keeps it internal within SFW! Again, why? Why don't you ask Don Peay how much money he has paid for his participation in the expo... the silence will be astounding.

I was at the RAC when the expo was first discussed. Were you? The biggest bunch of BS was when the RAC was sold on the idea that the expo would be good for Utah. Because of that RAC, I have never and will never go back to Fish Tech in SLC. The owner of Fish Tech was part of the RAC and I felt he traded Utah wildlife in an attempt to drum up business for himself.

I have had a long standing fight for the average hunter in Utah. I have moved out of state and am sick to see what has happened and what is happening to wildlife in Utah. The tail is wagging the dog. If you don't see that, I am sorry. If you refuse to see that, I am sorry. All I would ask is that you take a real look at the hunting in Utah and ask yourself if it is for the best of the general hunter or the rich. Then decide if Utah is heading in the right direction.

To say that Don Peay is leading the fight against wolves is a joke; the battle against the re-introduction of wolves has been fought for many years. And for SFW to claim that responsibility is inappropriate and a slap in the face to those who are really working towards this.

Good luck in your hunt, and remember to keep the wind in your face and enjoy everyday you get.
 
Let's ask then. HEY DON WHERE ARE THESE NUMBERS YOU PROMISED? Can we also get a list of every expo tag and the person that drew it? I would bet any amount of money alot of tags go to people involved with the expo look at john how many tags has he got one a year since it started right i know alot of people buy the hole package every year including me we never draw why? It just seem a little to lucky if you ask me but hey when when your neck deep in it you just say they earned it right. So when can i get a top spot in sfw i need to kill something it's killeing me i can't even pull a general tag!
 
I know that John Bair has drawn two tags at expo's. As far as I can find out not every year. Also no one else involved in the leadership of SFW has drawn a tag. They do not publish the tags anymore as with the State draws not being published. The outfitters decided to take the list and hammer those that drew tags trying to get business. That is why it is no longer posted with the expo as well as those that are successful with the DWR draws.
 
As far as the draw system used to draw tags at the expo, SFW did do a very good job having the entire process explained.

They had the independant guy there to explain the process. Seemed pretty straight forward.

Now, on the other hand, SFW did promise to have the numbers available for everyone to see and they have not followed through on their promise.

Whenever asked about the money from the expo the standard response was something along the lines of "Do you know how much it takes to put on an expo?". Seems to be one of Don's standard ways to answer a question. That is with another question.

The other thing that really sticks in my craw about Don is the fact that he feels HE deserves these tags for all of the good HE has done for wildlife in Utah.

I was one that was trying to support SFW but so many others have a bad taste in their mouth about the organization.

So, I went to the meeting and gave them a fair shake. They have dissapointed on many fronts.

As stated on here before many times. If they would be up front and transparent with the way they are spending the money most would probably support them in their efforts.

The fact that they choose to not make them transparent has to make you think a little.
 
Hope Idaho is paying attention. AK, AZ, NM...all have foot soldiers carrying on a battle they feel is good for their states based on being told UT hunters love SFW.
 
When do the RACS decide on the renewing of the 200 convention tags that dont go to help wildlife?? Repeat, SFW said 0 dollars of the convention tags goes to help wildlife.
 
nunya your an idiot! 2500 -3000 for limited entry tags. screw that. thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. if you wanna pay that than go ahead and start buyin cwmu tags. people cant afford that! i love hunting but i dont have the money for that! i would bet ya anyhthing if tag prices were that high the poaching numbers would sky rockeyt.
dont be trying to make this even more of a rich mans sport.

othere states dont do stupid stuff like that but seem to manage pretty well!

maybe utah should pay attention to other states failures and success. but i guess that would make to much sense huh
 
Could care less either way Russ. I'm just tired of the welfare crowd whining for their hand out's. If you clowns what to get rid of conservation permits do something about it besides cry on monster muley's. How on earth do you think Don came by all the permits? He got off his ass, influenced the right people, risked it all, went to the capitol unitl someone would talk to him and stood on the DWR door step until he got what he wanted. Doubt he spent his days trolling through an internet chat room whishing things where different. I have seen much good come from the conservation permits. Do I agree with everything Don does? HELL NO! But on the same hand I have seen nothing good come from the joe blow that drew and paid $163 for his henry permit. So when someone pays 100k for a permit and I see SFW results on the Henry mountains or another sheep unit opend up I don't really care if one or two of the welfare crowd does not get their hand out tag. And yes I am in line for a Henry Mountain welfare permit so I don't need to hear your comments.
If you want to get rid of conservation permits then buck up and pay the bill OX. If you can't afford it Ox get a better job. Or are you an idiot?
 
Until we have something better (read: someone better) I'll back SFW and Don for the same reasons that I always have. Don gets things done (when others can't)that make a positive difference for ALL sportsmen.
I agree that if we don't want SFW tags or conservation tags because WE can't afford them or can't draw them (Whiners) then plan on paying a TON more for your tags and permits! Good luck with that program.
I see it all the time. It's called jealousy. It's human nature to whine when others have a toy that we don't!
I can hardly bring myself to read all the dribble but it's like a train wreck. I CAN'T LOOK AWAY!
Zeke
 
Gentlemen

Just because someone or some group has done some good things, and in some cases a lot of good things, it does not mean we must turn a blind eye to things that appear to be wrong or misleading.

It was promised that a "significant amount" of the expo tag revenue would go on the ground for wildlife. I know that for a fact because I made that deal with Don and Ray and the wildlife board when I ran the Mule Deer FOoundation.

I do not believe a significant amount of the roughly $5,000,000 raised by those permits over the last 5 years has been put on the ground for wildlife.

I am asking for SFW or MDF to prove me wrong and silence their critics.

I am not asking for anything that was not agreed to or that should not be expected.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
In my opinion lets not cut all the conservation tags out. Lets reduce then to noncorruption levels, and then hold MDF and SWF accountable. If they aren't transparent, give them to an organization that is. How hard is that ???? So what is the problem??????
T
 
Why dont the Utah boys & SFW just lobby the State Governemnt to get the "Colorado Landowner Voucher" system that they say is so great going in Utah?

Then they could really auction off some serious tag numbers instead of the few hundred they get now

Not such a great system when its in your State is it now LOL!
 
I thought that a hugh amount of the money raised for those convention tags, Like 90% goes back to the Fish and Game. I did not think that there was 5 million being made at the expo. That is if you take away the money going back to the agencies that are donating the tags. Colorado, Arizona, California, Wyoming, and so forth. I know that the auctions are not bringing in 5 million dollars as I went to the auctions and kept track. I think that the last auction of the expo raised the most. I think it was 1.3 million or around that. That was the one with all the Governors tags including the big tag from Arizona, Nevada and Colorado.
Tony, You seem to know so much as you have worked for both SFW and MDF so why don't you start a group. You have run both of them and know what is going on. I belong to all of them but if a better group comes along I would support that group.
 
This thread is interesting to say the least...and also sad at the same time.

IsayNunya...I think you need to rethink this comment, which I find to be possibly one of, if not THE most riduculous and insulting comments I've ever read:

Isaynunya said, But on the same hand I have seen nothing good come from the joe blow that drew and paid $163 for his henry permit.

Long before SFW and the conservation permits/expo permits "joe blow" hunters were supporting the North American Model of wildlife management. The "joe blows" literally brought back many game species from near extinction. They set hunting seasons, got regulations passed, and did everything that is currently being done...and they did it without SFW and conservation permits or an expo.

Instead of you bad-mouthing the "joe blows" you, as well as Don Peay and every other hunter in every state should be thanking them endlessly for what we all have today. The abundance of game today came from the efforts of "joe blows" and there is no question or debate about that. The difference between the "joe blows" and SFW is...they didnt ask for anything special for their efforts. They didnt ask for 200 permits for an expo, they didnt ask for conservation permits that allow the wealthiest of their group to shoot elk in August or Mule deer in a$$ deep snow in December. They hunted right along with everyone else...with the same permits that everyone else had...during the same seasons as everyone else. The game they managed wasnt for sale to the highest bidder...their integrity wasnt for sale either. The wildlife they conserved and protected was meant to be a public resource...a resource enjoyed equally by all citizens.

SFW may be doing some good on habitat improvement...but they are also doing some serious harm to the sport. There is no denying that. They are literally tearing apart a long history of hunting tradition and creating a division amoung hunters. YOUR comments are a prime example, as well as an insult to not only the "joe blow" hunters of today...as well as the past, but also to the North American Model of wildlife management.

I'm not picking on you...just pointing out the attitude that SFW has created...an attitude of if you arent rich and paying 10K for your permit and going on a high dollar guided hunt...your efforts in wildlife management dont mean $hit.

The thing that SFW better start considering is that the "joe blows" out-number them and their wealthy hunters big-time. I also believe that SFW is on the brink of waking the sleeping giant that is the "joe blow" hunter. I think the time is long past due to get this train wreck back on track...and that starts with the "joe blows" retaking control of the publics wildlife. Time to kick SFW to the curb, time to end the conservation permits, time to end the expo tags. Time to bring back the tradition and the values that are good about hunting. Things like hunting with family and friends where ALL hunters have an equal voice in conservation and equal access to the resource.
 
The best way to clean out the private tags is to push for a ballot measure. Gets rid of all of the political connections and the majority of non-hunters will vote to keep the big game tags public. Kind of hard for SFW to campaign for private free tags with no financial disclosure.
 
Nunya it's one thing to take 5 percent of the tags sell them and give 90 percent back in projects, BUT to take 200 more expo tags and give ZERO $ back is BULLSh!T. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THAT IS OK???? They want 200 expo tags, 90 percent of profit should go back to HELP wildlife, not bonuses.
 
Good gawd BUZZY. Wake up! Most wildlife was brought to almost non existent numbers because there where no game laws and market meat hunting. Of course we all know that in the late 1800's to early 1900's wildlife became regulated. Organized sportsmen and groups like B&C club rallied to stop market hunting. Wildlife made a rebound. Sorry BUZZ but times have changed. Joe Blow's tag fees pay for DWR pickup trucks. VERY little if any gets back to conservation. That 163.00 joe blow paid for a henry tag gets dropped into the general fund. Lets open that book up and see how much money went to habitat.

Conservation permit money pays for transplants of turkeys,bison, sheep, and yes even the elk you believe magically appeared. It pays for guzzlers and solar powered wells, reseeding and chainings, buys winter range and fights to keep wolves out of our state and to reduce their numbers in others states. I have said it many times. Do I agree with all that Don and SFW does? HELL NO, HELL NO, HELL NO!! But hey look around. Nobody else is fighting for us. Do you really think the average politician gives a rats about joe blow on MM with his 163 permit? Umm no. When that politician sees guys paying millions for hunting permits it gets attention. Attention that helps all of us. Its not about being a "richmans sport". It takes money to get things done and you clowns who can't even support one group with a $30 a year donation sure as hell are not going to pay it! What is ridiculous and insulting is that people like you cut down and drag through the dirt those who are fighting for what you claim to love. Buzz you are one of those who feel "entitled". You should not have to pay for anything. Just sit back and let the government hand out what is rightfully yours.
No SFW does not do everything right but at least they are doing something.
Tony(fishon) I doubt the reason you no longer work for MDF and SFW is because you could not handle all the corruption. With your high morals,impeccable ethics and spotless standards you just had to leave. Yeah right! You sit back and when the fire dies a little on these SFW cross burning's you throw a cup of gas on it. You claim to be in the know and have had your hands in it. Start a better conservation group. Hey I'll be the first to send you my 30 dollar annual membership.
 
There are approximately 10,000 applicants for the 200 or so "convention tags". On average those 10,000 applicatns spend $100 a year on the drawing that equals $1,000,000 per year. If you times that by the 5 years that is where you get $5,000,000 over 5 years.

Yes there are some expenses to run it and if my memory serves me right it was about $85,000 the 1st year. So the expo tags netted about $900,000.

Again those numbers are not exact but they are fairly accurate.

And right now the groups will not give us an accounting of that money, yet it was agreed that a "significant" amount would go back on the ground.

This I know cause I made the deal.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
I never once said it was ok Dlove. Not once! However you and I can both apply to get those tags so I realy don't have much heart burn about it. I see your point, I'm not against you on it. I have called Don out myself on a tag issue that I think is pure bull #####.
All I am saying is I believe 5% of the tags for conservation is great! I also think if people are against that They are greedy and self centered. I think the expo is great and it takes money to put it together. I think Don and those who are fighting for what we love should make a good wage doing it. I don't have a problem with that as long as I am still seeing things happen. Don't agree with everything never will. You cannot keep everyone happy. We all have to agree to disagree, compromise and get in the same fight for anything to really work.
 
Isaynunya,

I say you may be wise to choose your responses more carefully.

There are more than a few conservation organizations out there that operate and do great work...more work...than SFW without the welfare known as expo and conservation permits. I happen to belong to a bunch of them in MT and WY as well as national organizations. I'd drop them in 2 seconds flat if they supported the same crap that SFW does...in particular the boot-legging of the publics hunting permits on the scale that SFW seems comfortable with. Maybe you dont want to believe it, but there are still organizations that operate under the North American Model of wildlife management. Its also intuitively obvious that a majority of the hunting public believes the same...and the peddling of the publics wildlife and opportunities are not going to be accepted by a vast majority. Why do you suppose SFW is being questioned? Because nobody cares? Because the average guy feels SFW is doing the right thing? Because they TRUST SFW? When money issues are distorted, when organizations wont open the books, there will be questions...and rightfully so.

Good luck getting everyone in the same fight when a majority of those you're trying to "unite" are getting the shaft from SFW...and even worse, getting lied to regarding "trasparency".



Also, yes I do believe that the "average guy" can make a difference on the national level of politics. I've seen it happen first hand...and you dont need over-paid lobbiests to make it happen.

Just a few short weeks ago, myself and 17 of my collegues lobbied the hill via 106 meetings with Senators, Congressmen, and their staffers. We got attention...and changes are happening...fast.

You grossly under-estimate the power of the individual and also the power that the hook-and-bullet crowd have the potential to wield on the hill. Its not as hard to do, nor nearly as expensive as you make it sound...and it doesnt take conservation and expo permits to accomplish.

Heres a photo of myself and a collegue right after a meeting with AK Senator Mark Begich...I had personal meetings with all my representatives from Wyoming as well as a few others...lots of meetings with staffers too.

IMG_3550.JPG


You ever lobbied the hill...or you just have your lips stuck to the Dons a$$?

Dont answer...Its more than obvious you let others do your thinking and heavy lifting for you.
 
Fishon you are great at trying to tear things apart. SFW said earlier that they did bring in around 800,000 from the draws before expenses. You know that your leaving SFW was a mutual agreement between you and them. Not sure about the MDF. You have clamed before that you could end SFW because of the things that you know and Troy ask you to bring it on. You did not. There is no question that you have bitter feelings against SFW and Don Peay. If you have something that can put them under do it. If not then you are just trying to dig up a hornets nest to cause trouble. There is no question that SFW has done great things in the state of Utah as well as other states. He goes to the places that get things done. To the elected officials. They are the ones that change things. To do things life fences, bridges, clearings, transplants, and other things going on it takes money. For those of you who want some questions answered go on SFW page and look at where some of the money goes. It is there. Yes I am a SFW member, MDF member and a member of the elk foundation. Not a member of the turkey foundation because of past things. Not a turkey hunter. I support all and help when I can. There is a lot of people on this sight who look for all the bad that they can find. Most are jealous of those that are getting things done. I would wish that all would go to a RAC meeting. I do. Not many show up but they can complain about the outcome. If you got a gripe take it to the RAC or whatever. Get involved and not on the back burner doing nothing but complaining.
 
nunya i dont really care about the cons permits. ya there a little outta hand. i think they should be cut, and i would bet people would pay more per tag if the tags numbers were cut. supply and demand!

i'm saying payin 3k for a tag is a little ridiculous, ok a lot! if you wanna pay that there are cwmu's that you can pay that on.
 
What have these "more than a few conservation Org's" who don't peddle permits done Buzz? I'm talking about direct results where I hunt!
Your saying its ok to sell a permit for 163 bucks and get nothing in return. But if you sell a permit for 83k install 3 guzzlers,a solar power well, lop several thousand acres of PJ, reseed and transplant 20 bison with that money then its wrong? Your a dip ##### buzz.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-10 AT 05:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-10 AT 05:38?PM (MST)

Isaynunya,

Who says you're getting nothing for your $163...YOU?

So, you're now saying that the UTDWR doesnt manage wildlife? They dont complete any projects? They dont conduct studies, they dont stock fish, they dont provide enforcement, etc. etc. etc....all that is completed and 100% funded by SFW and the comissioner/expo tags...glad you could clarify. Once again you do a fantastic job of disregarding the importance of the average hunter. The average hunter in your eyes is worthless...even though they currently pay and have paid millions upon millions of their hard earned dollars to support wildlife for the last 100 years. You really are unbelievable.

I'd say if you got 3 guzzlers, a solar powered well, 20 bison, and cut a few thousand acres of PJ for the $5,000,000 that the expo tags have raised...you've been bent over.

Wouldnt it be nice if an itemized list of projects were provided by SFW along with the costs...and precisely how much SFW spent on each project via expo funds.

Thats the problem though, they arent providing any of that. They're relying on idiots like you to just "believe" that they are spending the money appropriately. I'm more than confident that the lack of SFW's transparency regarding the expo is not by chance. When an organization fails to open the books...theres a reason. The day that SFW took a permit from the public, is also the exact day they should have been smart enough to realize that the same public would be requiring accountability. The day of reckoning is here, the public is tired of funding an organization via public permits and getting nothing but the run-around by SFW in return. I dont blame the outdoorsmen in Utah for being upset! They should be furious at this point. I'm just shocked its taken this long to reach the boiling point.

The telling part of this entire deal is that the solution for SFW is a simple one. Just open the books, show where the money is being spent. However that wont be happening, because if it did, SFW would likely fail to exist in the very near future.
 
>
>Heres a photo of myself and
>a collegue right after a
>meeting with AK Senator Mark
>Begich...I had personal meetings with
>all my representatives from Wyoming
>as well as a few
>others...lots of meetings with staffers
>too.
>
>
IMG_3550.JPG

>


Buzz, that black dress makes your a$$ look huge.

Sorry, just trying to lighten things up. :)
 
+100 times buzz i would rather pay you to fight for are rights than the sfw crew! There just to busy out hunting because you all know if you got your hand in it's endless tag for you guys.
 
Ken

I am not throwing gas on the fire. A post was started by someone else and I clarified some things for them. That is what this fourm is for.

I am not going to get into the SFW thing and why I am not there, I have no need and you blind follwers don't hear what people say anyways.

You simply take what they say as face value. Where here is face value and facts,

The Expo tag revenue is not being used as was agreed. I know what was agreed because Don and myself were the 2 main guys behind the expo and the permits. I along with Don agreed as representitives of SFW ( he was there consultant) MDf ( I was there General Manager/President) that a significant amount of those funds would go on the ground for wildlife, and an accounting of that monety would be made available.

That is an undispiutable fact that I know 1st hand because unlike you or anyone else but Don I was there.

What bitterness I may of had was gone years ago when I joined up with MDF and helped make them relevant again.

SFW means nothing to me and I dont EVER think about them until I read a post of another sportsman that is unpleased with how misleading and secretuve and alusive they are when it comes to money,

All that has to be done is they do what was agreed upon. Be transparent on the expo tags that I help take from the public draw and let all the sportsman know where the money is going and how much was raised,

The reason you have not seen these numbers in my opinion is because very little if any goes on the ground and most if it goes for salaries, bonuses, business trips and lunch appointments.

All they have to do is put up and then everyone will shut up.

But like I have said 100 times they will not put up and they will always skirt it, so people will not shut up;

I have not done anything but let you know what was expected and agreed upon by MDf, SFW, and FNAWS.

On another note I have been to countless Racs and Wildlife board meetings, Probably more then any other member of the public except Don, I have participated and been heard and help change things for the better and in some cases the worse.

Don't lecture me and accuse me of things you really know nothing about. I have moved on from sfw nearly 7 years ago and have NEVER regretted it nor would I want to go back.

I had information that is FACTUAL for this post so I posted it. Any person that really wants the truth and for things to run right would beg for FACTS instead of runmors.

FACTS are always FACTS and the fact is SFW and MDF are not fullfilling their commitments on the EXPO tags.

Anything else you would like me to bring to your attention?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Sheep go baaaaaaa.

Amazing Utah residents and especially hunters are not furious that SFW resembles a Union slush fund from the 1970s. Money goes in. Money goes out. How much goes in and from where? Not sure. How much leaves and for what? Not sure. Any money shifting back and forth to related parties? Perhaps. Government requirements such as deadlines being ignored for reporting finances? Appears so. Penalty imposed by government? None. Attention span of the masses? A few days of uproar then fades.

Is a great gig to play with ssomeone else's moeny if can ride it out. Check out Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition organization. There was all sorts of money that could not be accounted for and several related party deals. If you questioned him on finances then you were a whiner, a loser and a racist. Go start your own organization was the response. Turns out Jesse had a mistress on the payroll and all sorts of stuff. He did some great things with the money. Just ask Jesse.
 
+100 Buzz H & fishon

I'll tell you what. I am a nonresident way out here in Illinois, and there are way more folks like me than there are Utah SFW members. If someone in Utah took the initiative to rub out SFW & wealth tags I would gladly contribute annual dues to be a member, and I'd bet there are thousands of others who would join in. We are guys who have been buying points for years and now see those point being cheapened by these SFW political scammers. I inspect post office facilities for USPS and just got done doing Jesse Jackson's and all the other crooks in the hood. I know how their games are played.

We are blue collar joe blows who are angry enough to support such an effort. At this point if I were a UT resident I would gladly participate in forming such a group. I've been a part of some major wildlife initiatives here in the midwest. I seriously hope someone out there takes action soon. Entitlements are next to impossible to get rid of once they take a foot hold.
 
>Ken
>
>I am not throwing gas on
> the fire. A post
>was started by someone else
>and I clarified some things
>for them. That is what
>this fourm is for.
>
>I am not going to get
>into the SFW thing and
>why I am not there,
>I have no need and
>you blind follwers don't hear
>what people say anyways.
>
>You simply take what they say
>as face value. Where here
>is face value and facts,
>
>
>The Expo tag revenue is not
>being used as was agreed.
>I know what was agreed
>because Don and myself were
>the 2 main guys behind
>the expo and the permits.
>I along with Don agreed
>as representitives of SFW (
>he was there consultant) MDf
>( I was there General
>Manager/President) that a significant amount
>of those funds would go
>on the ground for wildlife,
>and an accounting of that
>monety would be made available.
>
>
>That is an undispiutable fact that
>I know 1st hand because
>unlike you or anyone else
>but Don I was there.
>
>
>What bitterness I may of had
>was gone years ago when
>I joined up with MDF
>and helped make them relevant
>again.
>
>SFW means nothing to me and
>I dont EVER think about
>them until I read a
>post of another sportsman that
>is unpleased with how misleading
>and secretuve and alusive they
>are when it comes to
>money,
>
>All that has to be done
>is they do what was
>agreed upon. Be transparent on
>the expo tags that I
>help take from the public
>draw and let all the
>sportsman know where the money
>is going and how much
>was raised,
>
>The reason you have not seen
>these numbers in my opinion
>is because very little if
>any goes on the ground
>and most if it goes
>for salaries, bonuses, business trips
>and lunch appointments.
>
>All they have to do is
>put up and then everyone
>will shut up.
>
>But like I have said 100
>times they will not put
>up and they will always
>skirt it, so people will
>not shut up;
>
>I have not done anything but
>let you know what was
>expected and agreed upon by
>MDf, SFW, and FNAWS.
>
>On another note I have been
>to countless Racs and Wildlife
>board meetings, Probably more then
>any other member of the
>public except Don, I have
>participated and been heard and
>help change things for the
>better and in some cases
>the worse.
>
>Don't lecture me and accuse me
>of things you really know
>nothing about. I have moved
>on from sfw nearly 7
>years ago and have NEVER
>regretted it nor would I
>want to go back.
>
>I had information that is FACTUAL
>for this post so I
>posted it. Any person that
>really wants the truth and
>for things to run right
>would beg for FACTS instead
>of runmors.
>
>FACTS are always FACTS and the
>fact is SFW and MDF
>are not fullfilling their commitments
>on the EXPO tags.
>
>Anything else you would like me
>to bring to your attention?
>
>
>Tony Abbott
>www.myfreehunts.com


Tony, I started it and mis typed I meant Expo tags. Dude whether people think you have some ax to grind with SFW or not is meaningless. Simple fact, SFW promised to open the books on tag money, and odds, etc. and they have not. It is not because of Tony. Its not because MDF or RMEF spend more in salaries. It is because they are not honest, PERIOD. SFW has an accountant or accounting service, guaranteed. Said accoutant or service has the ammount of money taken in vs. the ammount going out on a spread sheet, if SFW wanted to be honest brokers they would simply post that. They don't want to be honest, meaning in short they are liars. Why they are liars, or if so and so are bigger liars is irrelevant. I don't remember MDF or whoever else calling a meeting and blowing smoke up our skirts to cool off the heat on them, SFW did. So it is simple they said they would do certain things, they have not, they lied, they are dishonest, they are not living up to what THEY said they would do. Its not Tony who blew the smoke, wasn't me, wasn't you it was SFW. If you like to give money to people who tell you all the great things they do, FINE, I choose to give it to people who PROVE they have done great things. TRUST BUT VERIFY!!! Don Peay lied to everyone who gave him money. If he lies to you why do you think he would then turn around and fight for you? Next time I am walking a stream bed fishing I will ponder this, oh yeah old Don fought for us on this one too didn't he!! Lastly, DON, KSL had a report about all the wolves killed in Utah. Thought you were leading the fight to keep them out, guess you failed? Tony, I don't know you personally, we have talked on your show from time to time, and we have discussed matters in here. You seem to me to be on the up and up. DON, can't get a hold of you, won't return e-mail, don't answer phone calls, makes me wonder how important I have to be for you to respond.
 
Just out of curiosity . . . how many of you that gripe about the SFW expo tags went to the expo and signed up for a chance at one. Of the people that have posted on this thread so far, I know of 2. Now that's a little bit hypocritical don't you think?


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-10 AT 06:21AM (MST)[p]Why on earth would anyone that was 100% against the ethics and philosophy of an organization support them by actually participating in the unethical raffle!!!???

That would only encourage the activity.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you are from Utah because the only folks that support it are looking at their own personal benefit, not the future of hunting.
 
I did not apply and will not apply. Infact I didn't even attend the expo this year. My only gripe is NO accountability. If they would do what was agreed on you would not hear from me on this subject.

So I guess I am not a hypocrite.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Hey Zim! Just wondering why you apply for hunts in any state. I guess by your statement it's for the benefit of wildlife not your own personal gain, right? Now that made me laugh.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
SFW does NOT issue Audited Financials

The 2008 year was the first time they actually had a CPA firm prepare their 990 (which is PUBLIC information).

"Every non profit organization is audited on a regular bases and if there is a problem they loose their non profit. Therefore all these groups are being honest with the way that they spend their money."

Wow, do you really believe the above statement? Unless an organization is receiving substantial government funding, chances are slim to none that they have an audit performed.

I think a good argument can be made that since SFW is receiving substantial revenue from a state government source (TAGS!!!!), they should be REQUIRED to submit ANNUAL AUDITED financial statements every year.

SFW has NEVER prepared Audited financial statements. The 2009 990 was due May 15 2010, so it should be on SFW's website (as previously promised), but it is not yet. Why?
 
Did not apply.

Had in past before learned more about SFW. Yep, bought an airline ticket, rented a car, paid for hotel room, ate at the Olive Garden...every year until this year.

Is a slick tactic to continue to focus on the integrity of the questioner rather than the integrity of the questions.

If a known cheat and liar says your house is on fire, are you going to spend time asking if he has lied before or will you focus on the truth that your house is actually on fire?

Why does SFW get a pass when is overdue on supplying promised financial info that is also required by Utah as part of the charter for a non-profit? If a nonprofit is sloppy with its bookkeeping, how efficient does it do everything else?
 
"Is a slick tactic to continue to focus on the integrity of the questioner rather than the integrity of the questions."

Am I missing something here or is that pointed at me? Help me out Outdoors.

I'm not saying that hossblur doesn't have a valid point. All I am saying is that I find it very interesting that people come on here and do all the bad mouthing yet open their wallet when it comes time to get a chance at "their piece of the pie". It doesn't just happen on MM. I have friends that are the same way. Bottom line, your oppinion is only valid in my eyes if you do things that support it not "buy" in to the problem.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I apply for the same reasons as everyone else. Same reason that you do. What is your point???

We are all nonresidents in 49 states.

As you can see, all of us who are against the dishonest practices of SFW do not apply for the convention tags. If we did, we indeed would be hypocrites by funding DP's salary. What exactly do you not understand about that?

I think we nonresidents do more than our part for Utah wildlife considering we fund 80% of the UTDOW for about 8% of the tags.
 
The nature of internet forums is there is a lot of noise to sift through. We all care about Utah wildlife and hunting opportunities. The messengers on forums are a mixed bunch, of course, and that is part of the fun of dropping by to catch up on what is a hot button.

SFW has been a hot button for a long time.

The Expo awards 200 mostly top-notch tags from non-residents. The State of Utah handed over those tags to the Expo. Those State-issued tags are as good as cash. Over $100,000s a year are generated from the 200 tags. That is not chump change to most of us. Should be some stringent accountability of whoever touches that money. SFW seems to be the lead non-profit rather than MDF. SFW takes the heat.

SFW has some very sharp, dedicated leadership that understands the importance of building relationships and getting things done. SFW does not keep a pile of cash in an unlocked room. Controls exist. Checks are written. Bank statements exist. Accounting software tracks the money in and money out.

Assuming the accountant involved with SFW has some prior non-profit experience, there will be line items to classify transactions for not only salaries but for major expenditures such as land bought or SFW pledged money to a specific habitat project.

Another report details what percent of money went to overhead. You can push numbers around a bit between overhead vs. projects since are a lot of judgement calls since greay areas exist that honest folks can disagree on. No shame in having overhead but is important to measure.

An outside review of SFW's 2009 year might take 5 days if records are complete within a few days of the year ending which is the norm for companies and non-profits. Add some management comments about related-party transactions and by February the information can be confidently released to the public.

I imagine once SFW gets into the groove of disclosing how money is used then there will be debates over whether Project X was more deserving that something that did not get funded. That debate will be refreshing in comparison,
 
AWHOLELOTTA, I buy a combination lic. every year as well as a muzzl. deer tag and put in for an antelope and moose this year. I also don't think the DWR in utah is doing a very good job. Does that make me a hypocrite? Again, I didn't call a meeting and promise openess then not deliver, SFW did. Calling them out doesn't make me a hypocrite, just means I have a memory and think folks should do what they say. Trying to find or point to personal gain in this subject is just stupid. I mean I would assume that guides love the expo tags because winners would be more apt to hire you, so is that why you support SFW and the expo tags? SFW is well aware of the criticism of them. THEY called a meeting to take heat of of them. The biggest problem we had with them was where the money was going. THEY had a meeting, THEY made promises, THEY have not done what they said they would do, WHY?? You either say you'll do something and do it(character), or you say you do somenthing then not(lie). This is a simple, black or white issue. Numbers on a piece of paper don't have a grey area, only black or white.
 
I think you (Zim, hossblur, & Outdoors) misunderstand me. Outdoors is right, sifting through the crud on here is sometimes a little difficult. I am in now way accusing you guys of being hypocrits. However, there are some on this site, this post, and other posts about SFW, that continue to ##### about the expo tags yet apply for them every year. That is all I am saying. You guys are obviously passionate about hunting and doing it your way. I admire that. However, I think that because I'm an "outfitter" that Zim automatically puts me in the "I support SFW to pad my own pocket" group. Have I guided expo tag hunters? Not a single one. Have I guided conservation tag bidders? A couple of them. Do they make or break my business? Absolutely not. My business revolves around CWMU tags. The conservation tags are a vital part of the future or our wildlife and I whole heartedly support that. Is that in my best interest? You bet your ass it is. It's also in your best interest and the interest of our kids. I have always said that I think we have gone way overboard with the number of tags but you will not find an organization out there that has done more in the state I live in, pay taxes in, and hunt in, than SFW. Not RMEF. Not NWTF (although they have done a ton). Not SCI.

hoss, I admire your passion and respect your oppinion. You and I have had our differences in the past but that's OK.

Zim, I have one question for you, how many years have you bought a hunting license in Utah? Just curious about your NR motivation on this subject.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-10 AT 09:28AM (MST)[p]"I think that because I'm an "outfitter" that Zim automatically puts me in the "I support SFW to pad my own pocket" group."

Wholebull,
I don't know you, or what you do. I didn't classify you as anything because I didn't know were are an outfitter. But if that is the case you cannot argue there's no incentive because there just plain is. SFW has attempted to buy the support of every UT resident with their 200 tag transfer. It is what it is. All politics. I can smell it wafting over the plains all the way here to Chicago. Exact same smell as Jesse's politics. Not even returning it to wildlife should be illegal. Lying on transparency is just outright inexusable.

As a board member of a REAL non-profit organization here, Lake County Game & Fish Protective Assoc., we lobbied and won restoration of the largest wetlands in the United States, the Grand Kankakee Marsh. We did this without a penny of taxpayer's money, nor auction tags, nor conservation tags, nor tags stolen from nonresidents after selling them points. All volunteer time and money from local sportsmen, our club members. None are salaried. This project was just one of many. Our books are open.

So anybody that argues politics & wealth tags are the only way to do this is uneducated, has another agenda, or falls for smoke & mirrors.

I am not an outfitter, but I am not against them. I do not approve of outfitter welfare though. SFW doing "some" good is not good enough for me. I am a passionate sportsman who is about as far from selfish as you can get. Although I was integral in the wetlands legislation, I don't even waterfowl hunt! Never have! I don't even live in the state where the marsh exists!

I have bought licenses in UT off and on for 14 years. I have contributed funds to UTDOW every one of those years, adding to the 80% of your state funding.
 
My problem with this jim like most people was that we were under the assumption that these tags were going to public land projects and it not its to pays saleries and any study impact programs that they may do.now that I know the facts I will do 2 things attend racs to either delete the tags if they do not want to put the money to public land projects or support a group that would get those tags and do the things that I have stated above, One thing about Nwtf is that if they sell a tag that money goes to enhance turkey populations,expo tags go to someones pocket.
 
I think SFW & DWR should pay attention how NWTF is doing thing's there are ten times the turkeys in our mts. than deer!
 
Zim,
Are there really any "REAL" non profit organizations in Chicago? I think that's what organized crime calls themselves isn't it? I'm totally kidding but couldn't resist with the recent administration's history in Chicago. To each his own. You choose to save waterfowl that migrate to other areas and I choose to help save the elk and deer populations that live in my backyard year around. I think it's safe to say that managing a huntable population of elk, deer, buffalo, rocky mountain sheep, desert bighorn sheep, Rocky mountain goats, bear, mountain lion, etc. is a much bigger task. I'm not trying to sell you short on your accomplishments but to compare a wetland restoration with a states entire wildlife population seems a little silly. I'm not a waterfowl hunter. Used to be but not anymore. However I do understand the need for conservation in that area as well. As for your supporting 80% of our DWR, unless you drew tags every year, up until 4 or 5 years ago it was pretty much a free ride. And I highly doubt that your $65 + $10 per specie exceeds what most residents pay every year to hunt in Utah. If I buy an over the counter elk tag, deer tag and turkey tag, I've spent well over what your application fees bring in but thanks for helping us out. I wish I could return the favor but as of right now, I can't think of a think I would like to hunt in Illinois that I can't hunt anywhere else in the country.

Brian,
you know me bud, I have been a yearly supporter and donater to the NWTF for over 15 years now. Great organization and run well mainly by volunteers. I will say this, aside from the "expo tags", when another group surfaces that puts as much money and time in as SFW in Utah I will get behind them. But for now, they are really the only ones really doing anything. We all saw what happens if our wildlife is left to the DWR to manage by themselves. I don't think we can really afford to play that game again. You and I are waaaaaaay too old to start that process over. And with as much as our kids love to hunt, we would have to be insane not to support conservation efforts wherever possible.

Fella's, I'm not angry. I'm not really frustrated. I think we all belong in the fight. However, I do think there is a happy medium that can be achieved here and I would support any initiative or group that would get something like that done.

It's always an adventure!!!
 
"I'm not trying to sell you short on your accomplishments but to compare a wetland restoration with a state's entire wildlife population seems a little silly."

Wetlands are the most bio-diverse of any habitat on the planet, and 99% of them have been drained out in favor of farming. The area we restored is larger than any wetlands in the state of Utah or any other state in the country. Last I checked SFW has made little difference in either the game population or quality in the state of Utah in their illustrious history. If anything the mule deer population declined under their rule. One reason I am stuck sitting on 13 points. So your use of the word "silly" is in fact completely opposite.

Comparing the gross damage SFW damage has done and is still doing to our national hunting heritage falls far short of LCFGPA's accomplishments, on any scale. Not only that, but if everyone else ponied up and took the initiative there is absolutely no need for 500+ wealth tags to do it. We used zero. Many other western states use zero to ten conservation tags to get the job done far better than Utah.
 
For a so called "educated person" you sure don't have a clue do you. This statement alone proves that point.

" Last I checked SFW has made little difference in either the game population or quality in the state of Utah in their illustrious history."

Even those that hate SFW know that's not the case. This is not about what they have done. It's never been about what they have done. The issue that hossblur brings out is the things that they haven't done. Last you looked? Really? You better look again sunshine. I don't agree with everything SFW does. For that matter, I really don't care if they get rid of the expo tags. I go to the expo to associate with friends that I don't get to see but once a year. I go to admire the industry and see how friends businesses have done well. I attend SFW banquets and donate time and money. I enjoy those nights out with my wife and girls in the name of conservation. I really don't care what you do in Chicago, but thanks for doing your part to restore some wetlands. You're trying to plead that case with a guy that could care less about our fine feathered friends. In recent years our local DU club had the chance to auction off a couple of great elk tags. Tags that normally sell for and average of $13,00-15,000. They couldn't get their membership to pony up even $9000.00 for them. And you wonder why other groups have to step in. Utah is a very unique place when it comes to parting with money. People will give 10% of their earnings to their church but ##### when license prices go up. I don't know how your DWR is funded in Illinois but the majority of our DWR's funding comes from license sales. We used to have 120,000 hunters in the field on opening day of deer season. Now I think it's somewhere around 97,000. The DWR took a big hit when that happened. We've seen our resident licenses increased as well as fees for NR to apply increased. Our DWR doesn't have the kind of money to support the needed conservation projects without help from "big money" conservation groups. Somebody above mentioned our explosive turkey population thanks in no small part to the efforts of our local NWTF chapters. They have been auctioning off turkey tags for years now and nobody says anything about that. Even when it took 6 years to draw a turkey tag. You didn't hear anybody whining about that. I was at banquets when people paid in excess of $1500 for a turkey tag. It takes money. In the Chicago area you may have a group of sportsman with the financial ability to make that happen on their own. I can promise you one thing, if you think those good ol boys around you didn't do that for their own benefit, then you've been drinking that same koolaid that has been apparently been flowing out of that area for quite some time now. This is my last argument with you. You obviously have your own oppinions. I'm just really curious how much time you have actually spent in Utah to form your oppinions. It's really easy to form oppinions on places that you don't live in. Kind of like mine on your illustrious state. One of the most corrupt states in the union IMO. But I've never been there. We apparently just have to agree to disagree.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
The hypocrisy argument is funny to me. Apparently if I apply for an expo tag I am supporting the cause of SFW and can therefore not be opposed to its dishonest and gluttonous practices. I apply for expo tags because I want the tags, not because I morally support SFW. It does piss me off quite a bit that they are stealing those proceeds for their own use though. Kind of the same way I don't like paying $4 for a hot dog at the game, but its still a hot dog and I still want to eat it. Just because I buy a hot dog doesn't mean I support the gross inflation of food prices at private venues. The hypocrisy argument is weak. SFW is hiding its books from the public. It even created a different "non-profit organization" to administer the expo drawing, no doubt in an effort to conceal the appropriation of that million bucks a year. Where there's money and power there is always corruption, its really no surprise.
 
Jim the sfw might have done some great things in years past but my focus is on expo tags when they take those tags and not one dime is spent to public projects,I have a problems with those who take from dwr.Ive never heard the nwtf take a tag and pay someone with that money.And when are deer heard is hurting like ours,that money could help.my kids are frustrated when you hike on top the world see 70 head of deer and no bucks that sad.sfw needs to put expo money to public projects.
 
I live in ut and havent seen sfw do s@%t with are deer herd so what are you talking about wholelattablowsmoke up are ass i bet there are more people that would say the same thing unless you have your hands in the SFW COOKIE JAR you say they paid 1500 for a turkey tag now you can buy them over the counter i would say they did one hell of a job on there part NWTF that is there are turkeys everywhere look at sfw now people cant even draw a general tag and when you do good luck to find a 2 piont and you can set there and say all you want just take a drive up a canyon or go set at game checking stations come the end of oct then mybe you will pull your head out
 
Just the title of this thread makes me laugh. "Contact DWR"...LOL
Heck, they (and the state of Utah) enjoy the benefits of conservation and expo tags more than anyone else. You can show up to all the RAC's and board meetings you want, but IMO, those tags are not going away.
Some of you might someday accomplish your goal of not letting SFW benefit, but someone will. Whether it's MDF or some new group, someone will be marketing those tags.....sweet talking those high rollers into forking over boatloads of cash for a tag is the purpose of SFW, MDF and the other groups. In addition, that Hunting Expo is HUGE for helping to get people excited to hunt in Utah. Aren't deer tags selling out quicker each year? I doubt it's because of all the big bucks running the hills!!!!

I personally like SFW, Don, John, Troy and all the guys. I think they do have what's best for wildlife in their minds. As for the transparency......I don't know. I've had my disagreements with Don and Troy over the Antelope Island stuff, but......I like most of what they do.

The fact is, SFW is a political group. If all the money they raise goes towards buying dinner for wealthy people....well, that I already expect. They're not an MDF who throws $200 here or there for planting bushes. They are a group who pays Don Peay lots of money to make things happen in the political arena. He wines, dines, and takes care of important people. My only complaint is that sometimes I think he has more interest in helping the DNR more so than SFW members.
(DNR uses Don to get things from the state, because Don helps those who run the state get into office)

Everyone wants to see what SFW has done with the money. What projects they have done, etc. Just take it like this.....it's probably all used to pay Don and the other people, to take Karl Malone on a $10,000 hunt so that he then turns around and gives them $200,000 in free promotion and gets Don into meetings with powerful people who, in the end, might make even more difference.

Anyway, just remember, UDWR and the DNR enjoy all those conservation tags and expo tags as much, if not more, than SFW or any other group. Complaining to them probably won't get you far, but I guess it's the thought and effort that really counts..................

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Hey there hornkiller. Nice to meet you. My name is Jim. Good now that that's over with you can proceed with the personal attacks. Too bad you have to take a descent debate and ruin it. I don't disagree with yours and bigthree's assessment on the deer herd. Why do you think I apply in Colorado and Wyoming every year. NO DEER HERE! While that argument is very true, simply stating that SFW hasn't done anything in Utah is flat out wrong. By the way, I don't have to "take a drive up the canyon" or "set at a game checking station" to know there aren't any deer. I actually get out of the truck and hike. If you can read (you obviously have a hard time typing), I did say that I don't agree with everything SFW does. Deer management is on the top of that list. But thanks for pointing out the obvious. Now back to the original post "EXPO TAGS" and "transparency". You seemed to have gotten a little side tracked.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Founder said, "sweet talking those high rollers into forking over boatloads of cash for a tag is the purpose of SFW, MDF and the other groups.

Strange...all I can find in their mission statements regarding their purpose is:

SFW: The mission of SFW is to promote the protection and enhancement of wildlife habitat, assist in providing quality wildlife management programs, educating the public about the role hunters play in wildlife conservation, and perpetuating the family tradition of hunting and fishing.

MDF:

?To restore, improve and protect mule deer habitat (including land and easement acquisitions) resulting in self-sustaining, healthy, free ranging and huntable deer populations;
?To encourage and support responsible wildlife management with government agencies, private organizations and landowners;
?To promote public education and scientific research related to mule deer and wildlife management;
?To support and encourage responsible and ethical behavior and awareness of issues among those whose actions affect mule deer;
?Acknowledge regulated hunting as a viable component of mule and black-tailed deer conservation.

Couldnt find anything about high rollers. Perhaps thats the problem...maybe these groups need to get back to the basics of their mission statements.

Sad.
 
Again, I think we should post our ages on this site. I am 36. Being an adult I am well aware that it takes money to make money. Having said that, this fact doesn't affect SFW and their ability to be transparent.

$250,000 to grease:

Orrin Hatch
Bob Bennett
Rob Bishop
Etc. ETc.

First, we deserve to know how much it takes for one of the states largest industries(hunting) to get access to OUR "public servants". Second the idea of posting how much it cost to get this access could be used as a bargaining chip. "you can either give me a half hour of your time, or I will make a campaign donation and then publish the ammount on my website so that all the individuals who gave us money via the expo or donations know"

As for whole lotta,
I agree, SFW does a lot for wildlife, won't argue that. They do a lot more for the wildlife that is coveted by the deep pockets(Antelope Island Hunt), but they do for wildlife. My point of contention with SFW is, and will continue to be the cloak and dagger crap. DON, put on your website who you need to talk to, how much it will cost, etc. I have a phone, obviously I have internet, and I can write letters. However, don't give all of us the "give me a bunch of money and then trust me because I and only I can save hunting" BS. One man IS NOT THAT POWERFUL, and if he is then how damn scary is that??? But like I said, I am an adult, feel free to publish your accountants spread sheet and you can even have a line titled "buying political influence" and I will be content. By doing nothing, especially after YOU said you will, you prove to be every bit as big a liar as we all think.
 

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