Cougar and Harvest Objective

nebo12000 · Jan 28, 2014

I have been discussing this issue with a number of folks-- Wildlife professionals and big Game hunters-- The question is--
Should the split units, ones that have Limited Entry hunting to start then transition to Harvest Objective stay open to cougar harvest until or if, the harvest objective is met ? Currently on split units the HO portion of the season ends on a definite date whether or not the actual harvest meets the objective. Would you support leaving the season open until the harvest objective is met. What this could mean is that you could purchase an HO cougar tag when the LE season is over and might possibly be able to legally harvest a cougar while you were elk hunting or deer hunting in the fall because the harvest objective had not been met yet. Some of the units in the southern part of the state are HO units and basically stay open year round. do you think it would benefit survival and growth of mule deer numbers?

huntin50 · Jan 28, 2014

Keep the season open until the quota is filled year round.

Kevin D · Jan 28, 2014

I dunno, maybe they should keep deer and elk season open too until everybody fills their tag!

goofyelk · Jan 29, 2014

nebo12000,
While I tend to agree with most issues with you,
This is NOT one of them ...

IMO, mountain lions have been over harvested on many HO units.

Leaving HO units open into the fall or even year round will
do nothing to help deer herds .....

All you have to do is look at the Nebo and Nebo west face units,
Before HO hunting was oppened there, I'd say the deer hunting
was as good, if not better than now .....

And I have seen my share of Nebo cats hit the dirt !!
I was one of the ones cleaning cats off the west face the
first 4 years of HO hunting there ...

I have alot more I could say on this issue, but for now,
all I'll say is cats are NOT the main problem holding back
deer herds--------------HABITAT,HABITAT,HABITAT .....

nebo12000 · Jan 29, 2014

Is habitat the problem on the Nebo unit? I can see it on the northern end for sure. South of Santaquin because of I-15 cutting off some traditional winter range I would say it has had an affect. However, in a year like this, the bottom of the valleys stayed snow covered because of cold and the best forage was higher, so while there has been some habitat loss because of I-15 the winter range down to Nephi is probably 75% intact. South of Nephi it is basically the same as it was 100 years ago. Sure the wet/dry/snow etc cycles affect the survival rates, but the herd numbers since the ban of 1080 poison are at best 40%-50%. Unfortunately, even in the areas that extensive habitat work has been done, herds are not growing. I just received a report from the Mule Deer Working group(Western States big game/biologists professionals) In that report it states that intensive predator removal is only beneficial if the deer population is under the carrying capacity of the habitat. So, I guess we have to decide if the carrying capacity of the habitat is the limiting factor for growth or if the number of predator kills are the reason for stale or negative population growth. One report I saw said that some deer populations are in what they described as a "predator pit". The habitat could hold more deer but because of the number of predators, any increase each spring is basically nullified by all mortality factors, predators just happen to be one of the factors that we have some control over the number. If the habitat is fully utilized then killing more cougars will not help increase deer numbers. It may save a few bucks for the upcoming hunt by decreasing the predation though.

goofyelk · Jan 29, 2014

I've lived on the NW side of the Nebo unit for over 35 years now.

Spent 100's of days working lions with dogs on this unit ..
Watched the deer go from exceptionaly good hunting in the 70s/80s
deteriorate to the point it is today ....
The last 5-6 years, It's not hardly even worth deer hunting ...

And the lion numbers are at the lowest I've witnessed in my life.
That just my personall observasions--

goofyelk · Jan 30, 2014

Edit: Whoops, Should have typed.." NE side " ....

Gunnie3035 · Jan 31, 2014

So if not lions then what? It sure as he11 isn't coyotes.

goofyelk · Jan 31, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-14 AT 06:12AM (MST)[p]>So if not lions then what?
>It sure as he11 isn't
>coyotes.

Hard to discount the fact that somewere aroud 10,000
coyotes have been killed since the bounty began ...
(this number inclueds bounty, non-bounty sport, & aerial gunning)

That's one hell of ALOT of fawn killing dogs hitting the ground !!

gunning)

Gunnie3035 · Feb 1, 2014

Does anyone really believe the numbers? Hard to dispute the bounty paid out on actual numbers, but how do you get numbers on non-bounty sport and aerial gunning? And what percentage of bounties paid were non-Utah coyotes. Utah has the lowest numbers of coyotes in the western US. Utah don't have the huge tracts of private farm land to support great numbers of coyotes. People exaggerate or outright lie about the numbers. Anyone ever thought for a minute that the goverment or goverment funded activities might skew the numbers to justify more funding?? They don't necessarily lie. They just don't tell the whole truth. Which is the same as lying in my book. I feel the bounty program is a political farce pulled on sportsmen by nothing more than powerful lobbyist. The bounty does not and will not make a difference in deer numbers.

I personally don't feel it is a predator problem lion or otherwise. I feel it is an over hunting issue in most parts of the state. Hunters are simply more efficient in killing than they were 30 years ago. Better weapons, better optics, range finders, ATV's to transport hunters, longer seasons, and so forth. 30 years ago the 30-30 was a common gun, open sights were common to see, and if you were lucky ya had a 3x9 scope. In fact, the majority of households didn't even own a 4x4 pickup. Today you can't find a 2 wheel drive truck or a person who doesn't own a quad. With the technology today a 600 yard rifle shot is doable with an off the shelf rifle. A 75 yard archery shot or a 200 yard muzzleloader shot is common place.

To illustrate the common sense one only needs to look at LE units. The areas are tightly controlled in regards to permit numbers and the animals flourish. And it has zero to do with controlling lions or coyotes. I can't believe sportsmen drink this kool-aid year after year.

Wahweap · Feb 1, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-14 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]+ 1 on that goofyelk. 10,000 dogs that won't be chewing up fawns truly cannot be discounted. +1 to you as well gunnie we are very efficient today.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBKSvgf4CMA

ELKOHOLIC · Feb 1, 2014

Gunnie, I think your a little confused. What limited entry units are flourishing?? And to the anti coyote bounty crowd, it surprises me that as a hunter you guys won't give this a chanch. I think it has to do more with who came up with the idea than the actual plan. I have already heard them making excuses about why the deer numbers will be higher in the near future. We are truly a divided bunch! Coyotes kill fawns. They also kill mature deer. I have seen it myself. You can look it up on youtube. It happens more than people think. Now as for lions, I have 11 points and can't draw a tag!

Gunnie3035 · Feb 2, 2014

Predators kill prey and there is nothing you can do to stop it except remove the predators. Only problem with this plan is the four legged predator problem is overstated. Ever ask yourself why the deer harvest percentage has remained unchanged for the last two decades despite a dwindling resource and obesity running rampant. Hunters don't have to work as hard to harvest deer. The most efficient predator out there is us. With today's technology your going to need to cut the permit numbers or take other human impact measures to lessen the harvest rate. Don't underestimate the lobbying power of private entities who make their living from the resource. Kool-aid my friend kool-aid.

nebo12000 · Feb 3, 2014

I think it is important to remember that hunters only kill male deer for the most part. Very few doe permits are issued and filled. The deer population is low because of other factors, not hunting. The overall harvest percentage is only about 20-25%. There is/are other factors causing the decline of deer herds in the state. Also, before the Henry's became a limited entry unit it had critically low deer numbers. The DWR closed it to hunting and then did intensive and massive predator removal on the unit for several years. Does that give you a clue to what might be the problem in other units where the habitat is not the problem? I think we just need to determine where the habitat can support more deer numbers and then concentrate on predator removal.

goofyelk · Feb 3, 2014

I spent ALOT, and I MEAN ALOT of time on the Henry's
in the 80's and 90's hunting deer.....
And I WAS there when deer hunting closed in the late 90's
into the early 2000's killing lions .....

Your " massive preditor removal" is a little over exagerated!
YES- there were goverment trappers removing coyote's ....

AND YES, there was a fair amount of lions ...
AND I'm resonsible foe removing several of them from the
north side of Ellan to the Star spings camp ground ..
Hell, I felt like I was living at the Wispering sands hotel!

Deer hunting was ASWESOME on the Henrys when it was 4 point
or better! Dopped off with 3 point or better ...
When antler restric were removed--It was an invation!
Every two point plus on the range dam near shot!

One of the biggest problems I witnessed was archery tags
were either sex the last few years it was general season ..
That was hard on the herd after AR's were removed.

nebo12000 · Feb 3, 2014

Good points. I just know that I was told by a biologist that they did aerial gunning every year while it was closed as well as trapping etc. You probably know better than me. thanks

WhiskeyDog · Feb 5, 2014

Lions are not the problem with Utah's deer herd, period, end of story. The sooner Utards start looking in the mirror and quit blaming everything but themselves the sooner we have a chance at actually fixing deer numbers. Every dead deer on the mountain was not killed by a lion. The lion population is worse than the deer population. So to answer the original question; no, that's a horrible idea. Like Kevin said, why don't we just leave the deer and elk hunts open until everyone fills their tag? Hell let's give all the once in a lifetime hunters the same option?

nebo12000 · Feb 6, 2014

LIke I said before-- big game hunters in the state are not the reason for deer population declines. There are other factors causing it. Remember also-- 80% of the DWR budget comes from Big Game license sales. Its probably a good idea to take care of the ones that pay the bill.

2_Point · Feb 6, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-14 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]Biologists say that unit Y can support the killing of X number of cats. So why should it matter if a dude shoots the cat while it has been chased for hours by a pack of hounds or if it was shot by some dude who sees it sneaking across the sidehill during the elk hunt? Long as the quotas are not exceeded, there should be unlimited hunting. Just limit the killing through quotas.

Predators are just a part of the problem and killing every cat won't do much in the long run. The real issues extend beyond our control, but we should do what we can within our ability.

goofyelk · Feb 6, 2014

Many of utah hunters DONT realize there are 16 lion units
that are open to HO hunting year round ALREADY !!

Pick one of those units if you want to hunt elk and lions at the same time Mr. 2_point....

WhiskeyDog · Feb 6, 2014

So you're buying into the idea that we should let money decide what we do with our wildlife? Pretty sure that's one of the major factors that's got us into this problem. Also the numbers set by biologists are extremely out of whack. The biologists don't have a clue how many cats an area has or can hold. They have no way of knowing in most areas nor do they even try. You ought to know that by looking at how they manage the deer herd.

2_Point · Feb 6, 2014

"Should the split units, ones that have Limited Entry hunting to start then transition to Harvest Objective stay open to cougar harvest until or if, the harvest objective is met?" They should stay open until the harvest objective is met. Could not careless if there are already 16 HO units. If a unit hasn't met its quota then let hunters go in after the LE hunt it after the LE until the quota is met.

Goofyelk, You call me out because my opinion doesn't line up with yours? Are you in 5th grade? Such a negative world where you live. Thanks for the laugh internet hero.

goofyelk · Feb 6, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-14 AT 06:39PM (MST)[p]Edit

ouble post

goofyelk · Feb 6, 2014

Whiskeydog is 100% right !

HO numbers on most units are pure BS.

On many units in Utah, The HO number is set higher than
the number of legal lions even on the unit !

Piss poor managment to say the least.

JakeH · Feb 7, 2014

Goofyelk said:
"I've lived on the NW side of the Nebo unit for over 35 years now.

Spent 100's of days working lions with dogs on this unit ..
Watched the deer go from exceptionaly good hunting in the 70s/80s
deteriorate to the point it is today ....
The last 5-6 years, It's not hardly even worth deer hunting ...

And the lion numbers are at the lowest I've witnessed in my life.
That just my personall observasions--"

Goofy, of course the lion numbers are low, you cant have a high population of preditors if there is no prey.

Sounds to me like the Lions killed off all your deer.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

goofyelk · Feb 8, 2014

>Sounds to me like the Lions
>killed off all your deer.

Re-freak'in diculas !!!

Jake, cheat grass, cedar tree, and pinion pine invasion
has had more impact on Nebo, and most other units, than
"lions killing off all the deer"--------HABITAT!

Really Jake?

JakeH · Feb 8, 2014

LOL, I was knda tounge in cheeck about what killed off the deer as Ive never been on the Nebo, but there is a coralation between the low number of deer, and the low number of cats, that I assure you.

So that being said, for as long as you have low deer numbers you WILL NOT have higher cat numbers, I dont blame everything on lions, but with the herds are in the shape they are in can we really afford to have a higher population of lions?

All you houndsman need to see that as long as we have below avarage deer numbers you will not have as good of lion hunting.

No Deer means No Lions.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

elkun · Feb 9, 2014

no lions. means more deer,,,,,,,

goofyelk · Feb 9, 2014

A large majority of the mountain lions I've chased the
last 10 or so years are living on elk.....Not deer.

JakeH · Feb 9, 2014

Goofy, you say that like its a good thing?

I read an artical within the last couple years where it said that one thing that is keeping deer numbers down from preditors was the fact that Lions have a secondary prey option, Deer are a Lions main prey you cant despute that, so when the deer numbers get low they turn to elk, but just because they are now eating elk dont mean they stop eating deer when they find them.

So what happens is there is no down cycle with the Lions that the deer are currently going through, or at least not as severe of one.

Im not desputeing you that Habitat plays a big role in the decline of deer around the west, but Preditors of all kinds slow down the rebound.

Thats just my opionon.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!