Dall Sheep Poaching Trial

BCBOY

Long Time Member
Messages
5,100
Thought some on here might like to read this article concerning the BC #2 Dall Sheep that was killed by a well-known sheep guide, Abe Dougan. Authorities allege the sheep was actually killed (poached) in the Yukon. The kill photo has been examined and through 3D imaging they have found the actual place of the photo is in the Yukon. Here is a link to the Kamloops article.
http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poachingtrial/
 
If all Illegal Kills were removed from the Book?

What would the Book look like?










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Wow crazy after all these years. Interesting read thanks for sharing.
 
>If all Illegal Kills were removed
>from the Book?
>
>What would the Book look like?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red
>Hot Barrel & My Dead
>Cold Hands I Shall go
>down Fighting for American Pride
>& Rights!
>I Know I'm Out Numbered by
>Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll
>Throw Their Hands in the
>air & I know I
>can't Lick the U.S. Military
>by Myself when they Turn
>on us but I'll make
>
>you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a
>Situation where I Hope to
>Hell All Americans become True
>Americans once again & Stand
>up for their Rights!


I fear it might be a bit thinner!
 
I wonder what the statute of limitations is? Wow, that seems odd to me. 15 years later? I guess that's what the guy gets. His ego got the best of him. Just had to get that almighty "grip and grin" photo to show how big a man he is. LOL!

Eel
 
I also wanted to point out that the investigators nor did the prosecutors go to the location of the alleged kill. Now don't get me wrong this site looks like the kill site 100% but at the same time who is to say that the other site doesn't look the same? I know its a off shot and chances are this guy was out of the boundary but still if you were the prosecutor would you really want to leave any doubt?

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
I've got no problem with this guy at this point. Strip his name out of the book for this animal and let him go. They already spent more money and time than the damn thing is worth with computers and helicopter rides for a fifteen year old possible crime. The officials are looking more like the fish Nazis than he is looking like the face of poaching.

My question is was he knowingly in Yukon? If you have a limited entry permit for a great area why leave it? I have a limited entry tag for this season coming. If I end up over the border I guarantee it won't be on purpose and that isn't because the law.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-14 AT 07:04AM (MST)[p]>I've got no problem with this
>guy at this point.
>Strip his name out of
>the book for this animal
>and let him go.
>They already spent more money
>and time than the damn
>thing is worth with computers
>and helicopter rides for a
>fifteen year old possible crime.
> The officials are looking
>more like the fish Nazis
>than he is looking like
>the face of poaching.
>
>My question is was he knowingly
>in Yukon? If you
>have a limited entry permit
>for a great area why
>leave it? I have
>a limited entry tag for
>this season coming. If
>I end up over the
>border I guarantee it won't
>be on purpose and that
>isn't because the law.


Seems as every post you put up regarding poaching condones it in one way or the other!!! PS: You're supposed to know where you are and what you're allowed to take on any game tag, so your conjecture about maybe he didn't know where he was at is beside the point. If he's such a well known great guide up there, I would imagine he knows right where he is at all times!
 
>I've got no problem with this
>guy at this point.
>Strip his name out of
>the book for this animal
>and let him go.

Shocker. Mr. " I could be friends with a murderer" has no issues with a poacher. Why do you even specify the "at this point?" It would have been easier and a whole lot more accurate just to say you've got no problem with him PERIOD. Your pockets must get lined by some shady characters.
 
I am not saying you shouldn't know where you are when hunting. Can you quote me where I said that? Where did I say I condone "Poaching". I don't consider a person who misread a map a poacher. Maybe you do but I am not a zealot. I was stating with my post that spending thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars of STATE MONEY to investigate a boundary infringement from 15 YEARS AGO is silly. If in an investigator wants to do that it should be on his time and his dollar not ours. You show me one time where an investigation has been started on car theft from fifteen years ago and I'll quit preaching about the stupidity of detectives wasting OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. For Pete's sake they could have put forth this much time and money into locating one kidnapped child and made a difference before throwing it away over a dumb dead animal.

It has nothing to do with how right or wrong this guy is. It has everything to do with actually doing a good job now and these fish cops ain't.
 
"Shocker. Mr. " I could be friends with a murderer" has no issues with a poacher."

That's right I am still a Christian. Why would you have a problem with that?

" Why do you even specify the "at this point?" It would have been easier and a whole lot more accurate just to say you've got no problem with him PERIOD."

You're right. I don't have any issue with him period. He doesn't effect my life whatsoever. I didn't know anything about him yesterday and he isn't going to effect my tomorrow. EXACTLY LIKE YOU.


"Your pockets must get lined by some shady characters."

I have no idea. I don't spend all my spare time digging up dirt on people so I don't know. Once again we are back to being a Christian. You might like to try it sometime.
 
So he got ratted out, nothing new there, poachers are like fish they only get caught if they open their mouths...

I would like to see something other than a "depiction" of the background or I would not convict if twer me. Way too much hocus pocus with all this tech stuff, and just as much criminality with badges as on the other side. Both sides feeding off the same herd in the middle.
 
"In July 2011, a team of three investigators, including Gustafson, flew by helicopter to the site, 18 kilometres north of the B.C./Yukon border."

I hardly think that is misreading your map, especially for a licensed guide.

Eel
 
crazy that this is has been brought up and they use technology to determine where he actually took the picture (kill site).

I understand what tri-state is saying, 15 years ago for a guy that shot an animal, 1 mile out of the boundary hundreds and hundreds of miles from any sort of civilization. Before GPS, I have got turned around reading maps when terrain is similar all around and can see how people get out of an area. He should have known where he was at though at all times.
I can see the other side though where game wardens are making a point with this guy, basically warning any poachers that "hey we have technology now too, better watch your back"...
I am on the fence with this specific case.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
18 kilometers is over 11 miles. This has been a problem since the 1980's so they posted signs along the border and along lakes stating that they area was the Yukon and not B.C. As a guide, he knew where he was and he was after that particular ram. If someone poached a Boone and Crocket Bull or Deer on a unit that for my LE tag, I would be pissed.
 
>"In July 2011, a team of
>three investigators, including Gustafson, flew
>by helicopter to the site,
>18 kilometres north of the
>B.C./Yukon border."
>
>I hardly think that is misreading
>your map, especially for a
>licensed guide.
>
>Eel

missed the 18 km remark, that is a long ways and done on purpose. however it is still 15 years ago, nice to see him getting caught but 15 years ago?



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
So at what point should authorities give up on a crime Tri? Six months? A year? Just not even worry about it? When this act was committed, the technology didn't even exist to go after the criminal. I suppose DNA should be inadmissible in cold cases too? Because a criminal gets away with his crime for 15 years, he doesn't deserve a high five and a pass. You pull the Christian card the way others pull the race card. You aren't turning the cheek....you're turning a blind eye.
 
"So at what point should authorities give up on a crime Tri? Six months? A year?"

Actually that is why there is a "statute of limitations" associated with most crime. There are specific time frames in which the authorities have to convict criminals and it is there for specific reasons. The time varies from crime to crime and from state to state. Trust me there are way worse crimes that have a shorter statute of limitations than whacking a dumb animal over a boundary.

" Just not even worry about it? When this act was committed, the technology didn't even exist to go after the criminal."

THAT IS NOT AN ARGUEMENT. I could argue that GPS technology wasn't available to the hunter at this time. But that would be just as irrelevant to what we are talking about.

"I suppose DNA should be inadmissible in cold cases too?"

Now you sound like a woman.

" Because a criminal gets away with his crime for 15 years, he doesn't deserve a high five and a pass."

Did I say he did. Go back and read what I stated. How about this slick, what if through some form of calculus and technology the state is able to calculate how many times you broke the law speeding??? What if they send you a bill suddenly for FIFTEEN YEARS worth of speeding tickets. Who would be praying for a "pass and a high five" then. MY POINT IS JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO CHASE OLD CRIME DOESN"T MEAN YOU SHOULD! I know that is very hard for you to process but remember all the crimes you committed for the last fifteen years and think about it.

" You pull the Christian card the way others pull the race card. You aren't turning the cheek....you're turning a blind eye."

I am not turning cheeks or blind eyes. I AM NOT THROWING STONES! Get it strait.
 
Mntman said "missed the 18 km remark, that is a long ways and done on purpose. however it is still 15 years ago, nice to see him getting caught but 15 years ago?"

Exactly. I guess Canada is different, but I know from personal experience that the statute of limitations on child molestation here in Kali is 10 years. Something is out of whack.

Eel
 
Why would 18 clicks be on purpose? If you pay a bush pilot to take you somewhere and you aren't running the maps going in you are assuming he dropped you where you thought you were being dropped. You also wouldn't see all the Yukon territory signs along the border. If he packed in from at least ten miles with full gear then he is one tough son of a gun. This gets back to my question of why knowingly leave a limited entry area for another place? I am not saying the guy didn't do it on purpose but I can tell you this if a pilot dropped me in the wrong area and I don't have GPS I may not know any better and I think the same could be said for many hunters.
 
You and your hypotheticals. Still not as classic as the day you were crying about how drones being banned could lead to you losing your Big Gulp Coke...but you're closing the gap fast.
 
Hypotheticals are part of the real world. Fifteen years ago there was no way to snag this guy for a crime. One day a warden and some technology guy started talking about the hypotheticals of using satellite mapping to catch a criminal, and bam look what is happening now. If people are going to use hypothetical thinking to solve crime then men will use hypothetical thinking to keep from being convicted. By the way Chewy, I can see your all out of argument. Care to pay your fines for the last fifteen years?
 
Some of you guys may be forgetting this did not happen in the states and our laws DO NOT APPLY. This incident happen in Canada and their laws are the ones in force. The authorities there feel it is important enough to pursue charges. If you do not like that, do not get caught in Canada shooting a game animal out of your hunting zone that you have a tag for. Very simple, you play there, you play by their rules, not yours, or you can stay home in protest to their rules.

RELH
 
I know where it happened and I understand it is their rules. When I travel there I have to live by their laws. Still doesn't mean I can't tell them their rules, and prosecution of certain laws, is stupid. If they can't live with that they can conquer the USA and change my rule of free speech. :D
 
Well that sucks! If I ever fell into money, Abe WOULD (past tense) have been the first person I called. He has a phenomenal record as a sheep guide throughout Canada. It looks like greed may have taken another man down though.
I don't see what the hubbub is about 15 years, they just got the tip in 2011 and this obviously would take a couple years to build a case.
This case could be hard to prove in court but if it was, Abe has made a successful reputation and career in the last 15 years, and partly because of his book sheep. You don't get over 10 miles off unless you have a specific animal in mind. He should have the book thrown at him.
 
Tri, I'm not really worried about your hypothetical story coming to fruition. You're running circles again....which could probably do you some good. Keep slinging ridiculous scenarios and maybe you'll convince yourself.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-14
>AT 07:04?AM (MST)

> If he's
>such a well known great
>guide up there, I would
>imagine he knows right where
>he is at all times!
>

+1

Tallbuck1
 
Allright chewyman, since you don't like hypotheticals except in cases that promote your agendas I want you to find something out for us all here. What was the status of Dall Sheep tags in the Yukon in 1999. How hard would it have been to get a sheep tag in the Yukon then where this sheep got killed?
 
So first you think maybe he was lost. Then a guy isn't Christian if he questions a poacher's motives, then it cost too much and maybe we could have found a lost child with the money spent, then it's just a dumb animal that got whacked, then maybe the pilot was lost and the poacher didn't check his coordinates, and then it's hypothetical speeding tickets. Then the gears change and maybe he broke a law but the prosecution of a stupid law is stupid too. Now you want to see if a Yukon tag is over the counter...as if it makes a difference. I'm not doing you're research for you chunk.
 
What are you scared of slick? You realize pretty much absolutely nothing you just stated was accurate and you hope is just a distraction so no one will notice you don't have the balls to actually look at your target before you start trying to throw your stones.
 
I agree with chewy you sound like an idiot!




hornkiller.jpg
 
Hornkiller, why do you want to join chewy and make the thread about me? Why not stick to the topic? What are yall scared of?
 
For hell sakes Ben----

You always put yourself in this position with nothing to gain from it....no 'I am there' factual knowledge--nothing...period...WTF??

Why on earth a good guy like you would do this-- ALWAYS--most any thread---is way beyond my logic.

Relax my friend... ya know??

You have way to much Positive input to Blow-Hard/Toy with this crap -----topics....

Robb
 
Tristate,

Enlighten me how hard was a Yukon tag to get back in 1999? I ask because hell I was still in pampers back then, lol okay well not quite but I sure didn't hunt. I am in no way arguing one way or another, I am just wanting info. It would be interesting if the Yukon tag was easier to get if so why not buy the Yukon tag. If the Yukon tag was easier maybe the man was in fact lost. Who knows, I do know it doesn't sit well with me when the prosecutors refuse to look for exculpatory evidence. Or maybe they have exculpatory evidence but are hiding it.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-14 AT 08:22PM (MST)[p]It is well known that the unit in BC that he held a tag for does not have the same size of rams as just North of the unit in the Yukon. BC doesn't have a lot of dall sheep and certainly not the caliber that the Yukon has. Being a seasoned guide, Abe knew this. And nope, he couldn't just get a Yukon sheep tag. You have to be a resident of the Yukon for over a year to hold a valid Yukon hunting licence, or else you need to hire a guide/outfitter and hunt within their territory. Being a seasoned guide, Abe knew this as well. As for being lost, how can a seasoned mountain guide not know where he was? Just to stay alive in that country, you need to have expert map and compass skills, preGPS.
As for the comments regarding the time of the charges after the kill, Crown would never have pressed those charges if there was a time limitation and the Judge would have thrown it out in the first 5 mins if there was a time limit. This has been a week long trial with more to come in the fall.
One should also note that these are BC charges for importation of dead wildlife, providing false statement to a CO and possession of dead wildlife. You can assume that the illegal killing of wildlife charges will be laid by the Yukon government.

I have heard that the head and all other photos have gone missing. I know that both Abe and his partner were busy selling a lot of heads to Cabelas in 2012. Abe's partner told me they had both lost the desire to hunt. I thought that was BS and I assumed they were just experiencing some financial difficulties. I was shocked how low the price they were getting. Not even the cost of airfare and taxidermy would have been recouped. Now seeing this court case, looks like they were getting rid of all suspect trophies. I can assume Abe's partner will be facing charges as well as 2 rams were killed together on that hunt.

Here is another Abe Dougan case.
http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...ukon/2012/10/31/r-v-dougan-2012-yksc-88.shtml
 
>Why would 18 clicks be on
>purpose? If you pay
>a bush pilot to take
>you somewhere and you aren't
>running the maps going in
>you are assuming he dropped
>you where you thought you
>were being dropped. You
>also wouldn't see all the
>Yukon territory signs along the
>border. If he packed
>in from at least ten
>miles with full gear then
>he is one tough son
>of a gun. This
>gets back to my question
>of why knowingly leave a
>limited entry area for another
>place? I am not
>saying the guy didn't do
>it on purpose but I
>can tell you this if
>a pilot dropped me in
>the wrong area and I
>don't have GPS I may
>not know any better and
>I think the same could
>be said for many hunters.
>

For the average guy, no we wouldn't know flying in. Hell I could be off by 100 miles and not know. However, this guy was a guide in the area for many years. He knew.



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
The problem with cases like this is we all tend to default into believing what is claimed by the Fish Cops rather than what was claimed by the defendant.
The truth is, the Fish Cops are more likely to be lying about evidence than the Sheep Guide. Because the Fish Cops will not be held accountable for their lies. Today it is simply easier for Law Enforcement to manufacture or fabricate evidence than it is discover it and accurately present it. I for one dont believe a phony technologically produced photo of the background mountain any more than the guide could have photos shopped the image of himself and his ram into the foreground of any mountain scene.Similarly, when the Fish Pigs said they flew a helicopter to the sight and it was 18 kilometers from the border...just as likely the helicopter took off from 18 kilometers from the border and the ram was killed 18 meters from the border. My experience is that if the Fish Cops are talking they are usually lying... I am not saying that the guy didnt poach the ram.The lying bastards make it hard to tell.
More effort should be made by by BC and the Yukon to establish interstate hunting units when large swaths of habitat, mountains or ridgelines are disected by boundary lines.
 
To BC I guess your right, never once has there been a case tried when the statue has ran. For instance there was a teacher in Utah (basin area), the teacher had a few court dates before it was dismissed if I remember correctly. The same could be the case here. I am just saying even judges get it wrong sometimes thats why there is the appeals process in most countries.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
Sorry guys I had a date last night and I am just now catching up. Thankyou BCBoy for your post. It did raise a couple of questions that I am hoping you can clarify. Mainly are you stating that no one in 1999 could hunt sheep except a resident of the Yukon? Also was this man a guide in 1999 and was the BC limited entry zone an area that he guided in?
 
Tri, in 1999 only Yukon residents could hunt dall sheep unless you were hunting with a guide/outfitter within their territory. As for your other questions regarding Abe, I can't answer them as I do not know Abe personally. I know people who know him, I worked with his sister years ago doing forestry work, and I have met Abe's hunting partner who was with him on that illFated trip. I have not been in the courthouse to hear the testimony on this case. While some like to think themselves as budding lawyers on the internet, I do not. I'll let the qualified do their jobs and see what the result is in the fall. I do find it very fascinating to see how far mapping technology has come to be able to pinpoint a mountain's location from a photo. I work with a lot of mapping technology in forestry so those thing interest me. I also know that mountains are like fingerprints. No two are alike. There are too many features in that photo for me to deny the fact he was right where the CO says he was. I do not mistrust CO's and do not think they are out to get everyone. I believe they are indeed doing a great job. I don't think this case is a waste of money. Their job is to catch poachers, and from the looks of things, they have done just that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-14 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]deerslayer, why would his lawyer not then bring it up within the first 5mins of the trial? Do you think all these people don't know how to do their jobs but someone on the internet like you, know all there is to know about BC wildlife laws, and therefore this case is just going to be thrown out.??? Heck, even judges get it wrong eh, but you don't???? hahaha. I am not a lawyer nor a judge. I will let them do their jobs and see what the outcome is in the fall when the trial continues.
 
>Sounds like Trammer is still pissed
>off about the last time
>he was busted by those
>dirty fish cop pigs.


Yep! He should go team up with this Abe guy, as it sounds like they would make a good team. Then they could take their poached trophies to Tri since he doesn't seem to have much of a problem every time poaching come up on these Forums!
 
BC,

From the sounds of your comment it sounds like you contradict yourself (between your comment to myself and tristate). You first stated you have not heard testimony nor have you been to the trial, then you ask me why the lawyer had not brought up the statute issue if there was one in the first five minutes? I do have a answer for you FYI, if his lawyers did not bring it up and the statute was not tolled then the lawyer committed malpractice, and if the lawyer brought it up and it is in fact applicable there would be a good argument for an appeal.

For your second comment your on the internet too friend. I also have access to multiple specialized search engines like google but they are specialized for legal searches. If I must quote Canadian Law for you I will, but I think it might be unneeded. Back on topic I never stated the case would be thrown out, I simple stated if the statue of limitations had become time barred then the case can be tossed out of court. There are many things that toll statue of limitations, for instance hiding the facts can do just that in many legal systems. If the judge ruled that the statue of limitations be tolled it would stop running and never become time barred the prosecutors could have done just that in this case.

The comment about the judges won't be addressed because the simple fact I never stated I don't get stuff wrong. I do view that question as a indication of the writers roots and we will let it lay.

Lastly you should learn to question things, just because your a lawyer does not make your smart. I can tell you from experience some attorneys are very incompetent, and moronic. Just because someone passes a test does not make them smart (disclaimer I am not calling all lawyers morons very few are but they are out there).

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
Before I forget the case I was referring to in Utah, that statute issue was addressed at the first court date, well 6 months later the day of trial the case was dismissed so yes it does happen even when attorneys bring up the statute issue.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
BC,

From the sounds of your comment it sounds like you contradict yourself (between your comment to myself and tristate). You first stated you have not heard testimony nor have you been to the trial, then you ask me why the lawyer had not brought up the statute issue if there was one in the first five minutes? I do have a answer for you FYI, if his lawyers did not bring it up and the statute was not tolled then the lawyer committed malpractice, and if the lawyer brought it up and it is in fact applicable there would be a good argument for an appeal.

For your second comment your on the internet too friend. I also have access to multiple specialized search engines like google but they are specialized for legal searches. If I must quote Canadian Law for you I will, but I think it might be unneeded. Back on topic I never stated the case would be thrown out, I simple stated if the statute of limitations had become time barred then the case can be tossed out of court. There are many things that toll statute of limitations, for instance hiding the facts can do just that in many legal systems. If the judge ruled that the statute of limitations be tolled it would stop running and never become time barred the prosecutors could have done just that in this case.

The comment about the judges won't be addressed because the simple fact I never stated I don't get stuff wrong. I do view that question as a indication of the writers roots and we will let it lay.

Lastly you should learn to question things, just because your a lawyer does not make your smart. I can tell you from experience some attorneys are very incompetent, and moronic. Just because someone passes a test does not make them smart (disclaimer I am not calling all lawyers morons very few are but they are out there).

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
I am going by the news report and you would think the reporters dropped the ball too if they forgot to mention the defence argument of a statue of limits?? hahaha. But I ain't going to have an internet argument about a week long trail whether it has merit or not based on a preconceived notion that every internet hack here thinks they know better than the Crown prosecutors, the defense and the judge combined. As we have seen how those dead horses are beat silly on this site every time a thread about a poaching case comes up on this site. Same guys spew the same arguments, as if we are the jury and they try to persuade us to either convict and hang the bastard by his balls, or let him go free because everyone is innocent except for those Damn Fish Cops. Hahaha!
 
I didn't read the story and personally have no opinion other than IF he's guilty he should pay for his wrong doing. What gets me is how so many can "convict" a person from reading a simple news story. What kind of an idiot would not question whether or not there is REASONABLE DOUBT. Why, when someone brings it up, is that person a poacher or somehow approves of poaching. You all shouldn't ever be on a jury that's for sure. BCBOY had it right when he said he will decide when the trial is done.
 
Once again thank you BCBoy for answering my questions. I guess my problem here is I can see both sides of the coin while some here just see one. Could this person have knowingly traveled into another area and poached a sheep? You bet. Could he have been dropped in an area he thought was his area to hunt? You bet. I look at things logically. Does Yukon have a better sheep population of trophy sheep? You bet. But Arizona has better mule deer than New Mexico, and I don't know anyone who says they want to go poach in Arizona and stick their Jicarilla tag on it. It doesn't make since logically. I've hunted in vast wild places that you are dropped into by plane with no fancy GPS machines. I know if a pilot drops me somewhere I am trusting him that it is the area he says it is. Would I bounce around for a few days trying to get my bearings? Probably. Could an animal get killed before I figured out I wasn't where I was supposed to be? You bet. I guess my problem with the thread and the article is the fact that a bunch of people get excited to hang someone for something that can happen to them FROM FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. I hear lots of people here talk about "the kings deer" and how in Europe before we came up with the NACM that poachers were treated so cruelly by the crown. LOOK HOW YOU WANT THESE PEOPLE TREATED! You want them hunted years after the fact like you are the Mossad hunting hid out Nazis. Then you want them to loose their jobs and go to prison. THEY FEED THEIR KIDS WITH THOSE JOBS! Many here think a dead wild animal is worth altering the fate of entire families. I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THAT. Our wildlife officials used to have a grip on the balance between a citizen and an animal but most of them along with many on these threads have lost it totally. It is easier to be an uncaring zealot than a person who has to use wisdom to judge.
 
Its pretty apparent you have a bleeding heart for criminals. I think the message is clear: if you're stupid enough to do the crime then you damn well better be ready to do the time. Guys that bust their butts and wait their turn under the system (a system which you have made clear you despise), tend to get pissed off when someone cheats that system. I'm not sure how that's such a difficult concept to grasp. Their are consequences to breaking laws. Life is not all grey area.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-14 AT 02:18PM (MST)[p]"Guys that bust their butts and wait their turn under the system (a system which you have made clear you despise), tend to get pissed off when someone cheats that system."


Can you explain to me where you learned putting your name in a hat and hoping its your lucky year is "busting your butt". By the way go back and read the article, it looks like this guy "busted his butt" by your definition. Maybe Showanda and you think yall "bust your butts" walking to the mailbox every month.

Also you want to talk about do the time if you do the crime and that touches on my point about YOU MAY NOT KNOW WHEN YOU DO THE CRIME. Are you ready to wake up one morning and find out you UNKNOWLINGLY broke the law and now you will loose your job, your kids won't go to college now and maybe your wife leaves you. But hey if you can't do the time, right???????
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-14 AT 02:57PM (MST)[p]Tristate,

Just a quick question...If I were to accidentally wander onto your family's ranch in Texas and legitimatley not know I was on somebody else's ranch, then should I be held accountable for tresspassing and shooting a deer on that property? What if I honestley thought I was on a neighboring ranch and was just turned around. What if I hired a guide to take me hunting and he took me to a beutiful piece of property and I shot a great deer only to later learn I had tresspassed and shot a deer on your family land. Shoud I get a pass?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-14 AT 03:21PM (MST)[p]Utah400elk, I have caught several people on the ranch over the years trespassing. Some of them even knew they were trespassing. All but two have been warned and let go. Two were turned into the authorities and convicted of felonies. I can also tell you this, if someone came and told me that you had poached a deer off of the ranch fifteen years ago I wouldn't even pick up the phone to call the warden.

That being said if you think a little Texas ranch with fences roads and buildings is anything like the wilds of BC or the Yukon you are grossly mistaken.
 
I never even suggested that a texas ranch and the BC/Yukon were anything alike. Just wondering what your take was on an texas tresspass/hunting violation. Did the people who were convicted of felonies know they were tresppassing? Did they people who were convicted of felonies kill animals? Did the people you warned kill animals?

Best of luck to you this season.
 
"I never even suggested that a texas ranch and the BC/Yukon were anything alike."

Then why compare poaching on my place to this case at all. You know what you were saying and its apples and oranges.

" Just wondering what your take was on an texas tresspass/hunting violation."

Case by case basis. That's my take. You know JUDGEMENT.

" Did the people who were convicted of felonies know they were tresppassing?"

Yep. We didn't go after them legaly because they were trespassing though.

"Did they people who were convicted of felonies kill animals?"

Yep. 2 deer.

"Did the people you warned kill animals?"

Some did some did not. I have even caught kids sneaking on the place to fish.
 
Tristate,

Believe it or not, I really didn't ask questions to argue with you. When I asked the question you had just posted:

"Are you ready to wake up one morning and find out you UNKNOWLINGLY broke the law and now you will lose your job, your kids won't go to college now and maybe your wife leaves you."

I was simply asking if your views would be the same for your own land. I believe by your answers that they are. I don't have a dog in this fight but I do generally believe that people should be held accountable for their actions. Again, I simply wanted to know what your thoughts were with your own land.

If you found people who knew they were trespassing on your land that had killed 2 deer. Then I believe they deserved what they got. If you let people off with a warning who had killed deer while inadvertently being on your land then I believe they should have been very grateful to you for your understanding. I am a simple man. I would not try to read too deep into my questions. I was never implying there is any similarities to the BC/Yukon and you Texas Ranch.

Good luck this season.
 
Now we are back to this hypothetical Man in the Iron Mask scenario where one day I wake up and am losing all that's dear to me? You've bounced from missing children to "stupid laws" to speeding tickets. Lost hunters, lost pilots, and how hard the tag was to pull. Now you're playing the fiddle for the poor torn families of poachers. Keep em coming. Is the real reason you coddle poachers due to your longing for the abolishment of the current system?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-14 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]Tri,
It is my understanding that there is a distinct geographical difference between the BC side and the Yukon side. The boundary was not put there just for $hits and giggles. it actually makes some sense geographically. The mountains on the BC side are very rough and jagged whereas the Yukon side is more rolling and flat tops. To those that have been there, they say the boundary is pretty easy to discern. As for landing on the wrong lake due to pilot error, I believe all pilots have a log in which they have to document their landing locations. And I believe by 99 they should have GPS navigation on all bush planes as I was using GPS for forestry applications as early as 94.
 
BCboy, the boundary isn't there for $hits and giggles but it has nothing to do with different topography. You can look at the map and see there isn't much of a geography change from the northern portion of BC and the southern portion of Yukon. Also if the pilot logged in his landing and thought he landed in BC or did land in BC it will show that and therefore not tell us that he was actually in Yukon. Also it might not have been a lake landing anyway. I know many planes then were starting to get GPS. Not all. Plus most of the bush pilots I know who are doing short jumps never even look at a gps even though they have them. Back then there was a lot of paranoid views about getting dependant on GPS for flying. The private pilots knew that the federal government controlled all the GPS satelites and if an act of war occurred the military could lock everyone else out in an instant.
 
Tri,
I am taking about the Management Unit he was suposedly hunting in BC for Dalls. The discussion boards here in BC have a lot of guys with experience that have hunted that unit say that it is pretty easy to discern the BC Yukon border due to the geography.
All things are possible when it comes to pilots but you don't fly in that country if you get lost easily. You'll end up drying in a crash. Tundra tires aren't used in that terrain very often, it is normally a float. I flew a lot in the 90's in choppers for forestry work, all had GPS navigation. I flew is some pretty insane weather, sometimes daily for months. Never once did the pilots drop me in the wrong place, and i was getting dropped off in small openings like swamps or talus. I don't think it is very likely that the fixed wing bush pilots up north couldn't figure out where they were when landing on big lakes.
I understand you like pulling for the underdogs, but when it looks like a duck, sounds like a ducks, acts like duck and smells like a duck, it probably is a duck. You mentioned the King's deer, well here it is the people's deer. You get caught stealing, you should pay the penaliity. If we didn't have CO's out there doing their jobs, then we wouldn't have any critters to hunt. Part of conservation is to have someone out there enforcing the rules. No enforcement and there will be chaos.
The fact of life there are people out there that do go out of their way to break the law. Some might even be nice guys too. But that doesn't change the fact that if you do wrong and get caught, you will have to pay for it.
 
You think I am rooting for an underdog but that couldn't be further from the truth. I just want people to start using their brains before they decide to ruin a mans life.

First the geography doesn't decide the border between BC and Yukon. Its an invisible line. On one side of the line the geography is the same as the other. A huge corporation hasn't come in and cut a perfect line on the border and then leveled everything south of it. Look at the provided map in the article. It will show you. Plus if the plane dropped him close to where he says the sheep was killed then he packed into the Yukon close to twenty miles and then came twenty miles back out. Brother that is hard core. There are very few men on this earth that are going to do that to poach a sheep especially if you already have a limited entry tag sitting in your pocket already. SO that tells me SOMEONE delivered him into the Yukon. Whether that someone was flying a helicopter, plane with tires, or a plane with floats. And because of that someone, this guy has a defense. Maybe you hate that scenario but just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not real. As for doing wrong and getting caught I will tell you the same thing I have told others here. Unless you want the government to find new ways to convict you for all the wrong you have done for the past two decades and decide to make you pay you may want to think about how much you support this mentality of hammering people no matter the time or money.
 
Tristate was there not mentioned that particular guide made his name by taking that #2 B.C. ram and it increased his guiding business by a great margin. That in itself would be enough to entice some persons to commit the crime for financial gain.

As for the someone that delivered him into the Yukon, we do not know if that someone was the person that tipped the game officials off do we. The information given is that they started to investigate it after being tipped off on a possible violation. If it was not the person that took him in, then there is the possibility he shot his mouth off bragging about what he did and told the wrong person.

let the courts decide it and if found guilty strip him of his guide license, and the right to hunt for the next 10 years. If found innocent, he walks out of that court a free man to carry on as usual in his business.

RELH
 
Look I want to put this in a logical perspective. To me this is almost the same as a man who walks into a convenience store and buys a lottery ticket. He scratches it and discovers that he won $20,000. He immediately walks out of the convenience store and robs the bank across the street. The easy connection is it makes no since to rob the bank. But it is equally illogical to buy the lottery ticket!

Why would a man put in year after year for a limited entry tag if he knows he is going somewhere else to poach a sheep? He could just go poach the sheep anyway and state it was from some other unit. Why when he finally draws a dream tag would he knowingly leave the unit to go poach? A man that has the strength and discipline to pack in twenty miles and pack gear and a sheep back out twenty miles and has the frame of mind to be a law breaker NEVER NEEDS TO WAIT FOR A LIMITED ENTRY TAG!
 
"Tristate was there not mentioned that particular guide made his name by taking that #2 B.C. ram and it increased his guiding business by a great margin. That in itself would be enough to entice some persons to commit the crime for financial gain."

That can't be proven. First off he claimed it was taken in a limited entry unit. All the sheep guides and outfits I know don't grow big successful businesses off of killing one big sheep out of a limited entry unit. They grow their businesses in areas that OTC hunters can consistently kill big sheep year after year and trust me sheep customers are some of the smartest most well financed hunters there are. They don't pick a sheep guide on a picture of him with a great sheep out of a unit they aren't going to get to hunt.

"As for the someone that delivered him into the Yukon, we do not know if that someone was the person that tipped the game officials off do we. The information given is that they started to investigate it after being tipped off on a possible violation. If it was not the person that took him in, then there is the possibility he shot his mouth off bragging about what he did and told the wrong person."

I think it is a very high probability that the person that alerted authorities is whoever dropped him. But that is point. The minute you find out someone else is involved in dropping him in there then suddenly whether the pilot did it on purpose or accidentally becomes a lot more important to this case because LOCATION is the foundation of the violation.

"let the courts decide it and if found guilty strip him of his guide license, and the right to hunt for the next 10 years. If found innocent, he walks out of that court a free man to carry on as usual in his business."

That's easy to say when your livelihood isn't the one hanging on this. Look I here a lot of people say if you can't do the time don't do the crime. In the vast majority of crimes that fits. But the simple fact is damn near every single person on these threads has broken wildlife laws. Many didn't even know it. SO what ends up happening for us as hunters is the saying gets changed to "If you can't do the time, don't be a hunter".

Look at what's happening right now on these forums. There is a thread right now about harvest changes on the Wasatch for elk. And there are many people who are in the know that didn't realize these changes have happened. Who is going to walk out of the Wasatch this year with a bull with a tag on it thinking it is totally great only to get locked up by the game wardens and told hey "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Those are HONEST men trying to stay honest and you would be willing to let the courts decide the financial future of their families because of a wildlife system that is so complex and dynamic YOU CAN"T KEEP TRACK OF IT.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]You are assuming this was a hard draw to pull. Not the case, especially in the 90's. A lot of remote access draws in this province are very very easy to pull year after year. The hard physical demanding terrain, the cost of flying in and the very low odds of success limit the number of hunters that have the fortitude and drive to put in for this draw. So to knowingly put in knowing of big rams across the border with very little chance of getting caught, it is very plausable Abe and his partner planned this well in advance. Being well versed in the mountains, it is also very plausable that the were dropped off on the BC side, hiked into the Yukon side, killed the rams, and hiked back to BC for pick up. Keep in mind a lot of the hardcore DIY sheep nuts in this province hunt out of their backpacks for 14 days or more. I have friends that have covered a 100 kms in a 14 day hunt from drop to pick up. I'm sure Abe is capable of doing the same. Hell, not uncommon from me to do 20 kms a day for an entire week hunting muleys and I am no superman.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 02:14PM (MST)[p]Also, Tri, did you not read the other link I put up regarding another court case Abe is involved in. Waton waste of meat. If you only care about cape and horns, the pack weight is probably very doable.It should also be noted that Abe's guide licence has been pulled for this year due to several ethical concerns. I'm not here to be his judge and jury, that is what the court process is for. I have heard rumours for years concerning Abe. Had even heard that this ram was rumoured to be a Yukon ram numerous years ago. I did not make any judgement in my mind and thought that it was the classic jealous sour grapes. I actually held Abe up with high regard because he was a hard core hunter and consistantly killed big critters, being rams, muleys, lions or bears. But seeing these latest court cases against him, it is looking like the thing that looked like a duck is probably a duck. In my mind it brings into question all his other trophies. Very similiar to the Deerking story here on MM from a few years back.
 
"You are assuming this was a hard draw to pull. Not the case, especially in the 90's. A lot of remote access draws in this province are very very easy to pull year after year."

Not according to the article you posted. But hey if you wanna play it both ways to hang someone I expect nothing less from a person with your attachment to the government.

" The hard physical demanding terrain, the cost of flying in and the very low odds of success limit the number of hunters that have the fortitude and drive to put in for this draw."

Wait a minute isn't the terrain there much different than the terrain 18 clicks north according to your previous post? What changed. Again do you just want to play it both ways?

" So to knowingly put in knowing of big rams across the border with very little chance of getting caught,"

Why aren't there any big rams in the limited entry area that I guarantee you has the exact same genetics as rams 10 miles away plus no one wants to hunt it because it is too tough?????????????????

" it is very plausable Abe and his partner planned this well in advance. Being well versed in the mountains, it is also very plausable that the were dropped off on the BC side, hiked into the Yukon side, killed the rams, and hiked back to BC for pick up."

Plausible but ILLOGICAL. This is my point. It is plausible that Vladimir Putin was with them and used satellites to locate this ram and then they let him poach it but that doesn't make any since now does it. Where I come from we don't wreck lives over what is "plausible".

" Keep in mind a lot of the hardcore DIY sheep nuts in this province hunt out of their backpacks for 14 days or more. I have friends that have covered a 100 kms in a 14 day hunt from drop to pick up. I'm sure Abe is capable of doing the same. Hell, not uncommon from me to do 20 kms a day for an entire week hunting muleys and I am no superman."

I know exactly what a sheep hunter can do and that is what I am telling you. I am talking TWENTY MILES STRAIGHT. Not wondering around 8 clicks a day hunting for sheep. That's four days hard packing with no hunting. I know a lot of very fit sheep hunters
and I really don't know of one that is going to do that. If you are that hard core you can go kill a big sheep where you got the limited entry tag in the hard mountains you just described. You don't have to go poach one.
 
"Also, Tri, did you not read the other link I put up regarding another court case Abe is involved in. Waton waste of meat. If you only care about cape and horns, the pack weight is probably very doable.It should also be noted that Abe's guide licence has been pulled for this year due to several ethical concerns."

I bet that made your day.

" I'm not here to be his judge and jury, that is what the court process is for."

But you wish you were. That's why you post this stuff. If you wanted us to make up our own minds you would just post the link and not sit here and not mention what is "plausible" or "rumours" you have heard.

" I have heard rumours for years concerning Abe. Had even heard that this ram was rumoured to be a Yukon ram numerous years ago. I did not make any judgement in my mind and thought that it was the classic jealous sour grapes."

If you aren't judging there is no point in writing those three sentences. You are arguing for the purpose of influencing people to support the conviction of this person. I will not believe anything else you say now because you can not be honest about your goals here.

" I actually held Abe up with high regard because he was a hard core hunter and consistantly killed big critters, being rams, muleys, lions or bears. But seeing these latest court cases against him, it is looking like the thing that looked like a duck is probably a duck. In my mind it brings into question all his other trophies. Very similiar to the Deerking story here on MM from a few years back."

What is the question that is brought? I want to know what that question is? Quit hiding behind some PR stunt of "you don't judge" and be man enough to ask the question.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 02:57PM (MST)[p]What happens in Limited Entry units when a big critter is killed and publically talked about and even appears in The BC Record Book? The draw odds go up!!! Keep in mind BC's system is a lottery draw. No points! You have the same odds as everyone else each and every year. The odds go up the more people put in. So the article is not wrong, currently the draw odds are quite a bit higher than what it was in the 90's when everyone thought it produced small rams with very poor success rates. Keep in mind, 2 rams were killed on that illfated trip. 2 exceptional rams at that. And Abe wrote up the story in a very popular book for BC residents. Of course, the gutpile chasers are going to put in and giver a go.
As I mentioned, the unit is pretty tuff ground but the Yukon side of the border is a lot easier. You forget I said that? A plan to put in for a low odds hunt with incredibly tuff hunting and then walk out of the tuff ground into much easier ground is very easy to comprehend on a 14 day trip. It is also easy to comprehend that Abe probably knew exactly where this ram was by either scouting before the season by foot or from the air. Planes are used by summer hikers and tourists with no need to watch MU boundaries. Also, Abe had a lot of guiding experience for mulitiple Northern outfiiters. I don't know all the outfits he worked for or when, but I do know he has guided all over BC and the NWT. It is a good guess he guided in the Yukon too. With that guiding experience, there is a good chance he could have seen these rams then. That is only speculation on my part, but Tri you are doing your utmost to speculate his innocence. There are gobs of reasons why he could have been doing what he did. All I know he looks to be paying the piper and it really doesn't matter what you or I have to say about it. It is what it is. He is in court and we will see an outcome in the fall. We might not personally agree with the outcome but there is nothing we can say on the internet that will change that outcome. Seeing your constant fight for the supposed innocent reminds me of a quote from a movie. I think it may have The Shawshank Redemption. It was something along the lines of "everyone in prison is innocent." meaning, regardless the criminal, they all have some story about how they didn't do it.
 
You are dodging. You stated it brings into question. So what is your question?

Second I have NEVER stated this man is innocent so why you went off on that tangent is beyond me.

I always like a post where someone will claim he doesn't judge and then states "it's a good guess". I have little respect for men who will present "good guesses" into a public forum when a man's livelihood could be in play. THAT IS GROSELY IRRESPONSIBLE.
 
>"Also, Tri, did you not read
>the other link I put
>up regarding another court case
>Abe is involved in. Waton
>waste of meat. If you
>only care about cape and
>horns, the pack weight is
>probably very doable.It should also
>be noted that Abe's guide
>licence has been pulled for
>this year due to several
>ethical concerns."
>
>I bet that made your day.
>
>
>" I'm not here to be
>his judge and jury, that
>is what the court process
>is for."
>
>But you wish you were.
>That's why you post this
>stuff. If you wanted
>us to make up our
>own minds you would just
>post the link and not
>sit here and not mention
>what is "plausible" or "rumours"
>you have heard.
>
>" I have heard rumours for
>years concerning Abe. Had even
>heard that this ram was
>rumoured to be a Yukon
>ram numerous years ago. I
>did not make any judgement
>in my mind and thought
>that it was the classic
>jealous sour grapes."
>
>If you aren't judging there is
>no point in writing those
>three sentences. You are
>arguing for the purpose of
>influencing people to support the
>conviction of this person.
>I will not believe anything
>else you say now because
>you can not be honest
>about your goals here.
>
>" I actually held Abe up
>with high regard because he
>was a hard core hunter
>and consistantly killed big critters,
>being rams, muleys, lions or
>bears. But seeing these latest
>court cases against him, it
>is looking like the thing
>that looked like a duck
>is probably a duck. In
>my mind it brings into
>question all his other trophies.
>Very similiar to the Deerking
>story here on MM from
>a few years back."
>
>What is the question that is
>brought? I want to
>know what that question is?
> Quit hiding behind
>some PR stunt of "you
>don't judge" and be man
>enough to ask the question.
>

I have only been responding because YOU are asking questions and I am answering them. You have been the one beating the drum of innocence and keep on making up reasons for his innocence. Your ideas are indeed plausible but in my mind highly unlikely. Sure a pilot could have dropped him off on the wrong lake. Highly unlikely but plausible. I'm sure the defence will have excuses you haven't even thought up yet. Too me, the picture is very damning. It looks like a given he was where he didn't have authorization to hunt. From my perspective, he'll need a damn good lawyer to get out of this with nothing but a tarnished reputation.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 03:49PM (MST)[p]BCBOY---By now you should have realized that no matter what evidence may have been presented in past cases where a person was convicted of poaching or other wildlife crimes it is usually the opinion of Tri that the guy was innocent or got shafted, etc. with a bunch of goofy reasons. Major crimes, regardless of when they were supposedly committed, are the ones that normally get reported and if they are being prosecuted it's normally because there is a preponderence of evidence to have instigated the prosecution of the person in the headlines. Tri really needs to stick with his taxidermy business and quit coming up with all these cockamamy excuses and reasons where in his mind most are never guilty of a crime that they are accused of or the government is spending too much money prosecuting a case. I'm also really surprised that his buddy Trammer hasn't been back on the thread a few more times telling us how all fish cops are as crooked as a dog's hind leg and are only out there to prosecute and harrass legal sportspersons like himself, LOL!!!
 
You have been having Good Guesses on this entire thread. Hahaha. You can have them, but I can't? You know nothing of the area nor the man and yet your guesses are better than mine? hahaha. I answer you questions with honest answers and I am grossly irresponsible? Why did you ask them if you didn't want the answers? hahaha. You are entertaining to say the least. You get under many people's skin here with your constant defence of the 'innocent' poacher. I find it comical. If your goal was to get under my skin, you have not acheived that. Good try though. And yup I will answer the question. If Abe willingly hiked in to kill that ram years ago, then how many of his other trophies taken since then are legit? If the court decides the duck is actually a swan because one of your Good Guesses was presented in a believable manner, then I will have no problems in my mind with his other trophies.
 
Flopgun, you stated it now go back and show me where I said this person was "innocent". I find it funny two ex government employees are sticking together to run a man's name in the dirt.
 
Excellent. Now we can get to the heart of why you started and are keeping this thread going. It all circles around whether you have a "problem" with his trophies. Obviously we can all see why you are annoyed by my logic. This is an emotional issue for you. You have "problems" with other people's property and success. I can't help but think how much easier and cheaper hunting would be if people could set aside the competitive side, and problems, and just hunted for their own pleasure and challenges.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]>Flopgun, you stated it now go
>back and show me where
>I said this person was
>"innocent". I find it
>funny two ex government employees
>are sticking together to run
>a man's name in the
>dirt.


I stated past crimes, so read what I write and don't assume anything, as I didn't say you were saying the guy is innocent, just a bunch of silly reasons why he might be! I'm sure authorities have their bases covered on your various conjectures and have their ducks in a row to rule those out if his attorney comes up with the same BS as you have. I also find it funny that a taxi is always so up on everything to post what you do when you've never prosecuted a case compared to someone who had a couple hundred under his belt and never lost before he retired! Stick with your taxi work pardner!!! PS: That's a real good one that you are accusing BCBOY of keeping this thread alive when you have 1/3 of the 80 posts on it, LOL!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 04:21PM (MST)[p]>Excellent. Now we can get
>to the heart of why
>you started and are keeping
>this thread going. It
>all circles around whether you
>have a "problem" with his
>trophies. Obviously we
>can all see why you
>are annoyed by my logic.
> This is an emotional
>issue for you.
>You have "problems" with other
>people's property and success.
>I can't help but think
>how much easier and cheaper
> hunting would be if
>people could set aside the
>competitive side, and problems,
>and just hunted for their
>own pleasure and challenges.


Hahaha! Good one! Good twist of the words! Something you accuse others of doing to you all the time! If you have ever paid attention to my posts here on MM the last dozen or more year, you would find that I am very supportive of other hunter's successes. I go out of my way to congratulate hunters all the time. The only competition I am concerned about is between me and the critter I am hunting. But twist my words all you want. I will state it once again, if Abe willingly poached this ram, then it brings into question his other trophies as to if they are legit or not. I am not alone in this thought process. If he is convicted of poaching this ram, it will not be his only trophy that will be stripped from the Books. If you poached once, good chance you have done it more than once.
 
It is not Flopgun it is TOPGUN and Mike is very passionate in his compassion for hunting into the future for all of us.

Thanks for your input Mike and to BCBoy for this heads-up thread..

Robb
 
>Flopgun, you stated it now go
>back and show me where
>I said this person was
>"innocent". I find it
>funny two ex government employees
>are sticking together to run
>a man's name in the
>dirt.

I hope you are not referring to me. I have never been a government employee. Hahaha!
 
My personal opinion is that I am beginning to suspect Tristates' hunting ethics due to his insane defense of a possible poacher. He has gone so far overboard to defend the guy with "what if's" that it does appear he does not agree with certain hunting laws. I also wonder if he would disregard those laws while hunting due to not agreeing with them. Just my personal opinion but based on prior experience of others who have done this.

RELH
 
Just curious. So if I'm to buy the theory that the pilot who flew them in, may not of known where they were exactly, an to even imagine the hunter(Abe) an his companion had no idea they got out of their hunting unit so to speak. Then just who's the informant that let the cat outta the bag that knew they were in the Yukon? How did he know? I think we can wipe our asses with any of the above theories. One of the three listed above knew it, an they used bad judgement thinking it would be kept secret. Oh well. NEXT!
 
Flopgun,

Don't start craw fishing now. I have never described this person or any of the other people accused on these forums of poaching as being "innocent". Once again you have resorted to lying because you are too stupid to defend your stance.
 
Robb,

Your boy Mike, Flopgun, is a retired food inspector who will lie and belittle you in the blink of an eye if you disagree with him. If you hold your ground he will send you e-mails saying to leave him alone or "people are driving to your house to kick your ass". If you think this is my first run in with him you are mistaken. Your defense of him has fallen on deaf ears.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:58PM (MST)[p]Relh,

Why don't you look up my criminal history? I am sure at the age 38 I would have had a run in with the law by now if my "ethics" are in question. Why don't you get Topgun to look it up for you. I am sure he has already done it. Go ahead and find out what my criminal past is. I tell you what why don't you post it right here on these forums and do me a favor. POST YOUR CRIMINAL HISTORY RIGHT NEXT TO IT.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14
>AT 06:58?PM (MST)

>
>Relh,
>
>Why don't you look up my
>criminal history? I am
>sure at the age 38
>I would have had a
>run in with the law
>by now if my "ethics"
>are in question. Why
>don't you get Topgun to
>look it up for you.
> I am sure he
>has already done it.
>Go ahead and find out
>what my criminal past is.
> I tell you what
>why don't you post it
>right here on these forums
>and do me a favor.
> POST YOUR CRIMINAL HISTORY
>RIGHT NEXT TO IT.


You really have lost what few marbles you have in your noggin if you think I'd waste my valuable time or spend any money looking up anything to do with your sorry azz, LOL! The only thing you're good at is trolling and ruining evey thread you post on with loads of BS!
 
>Robb,
>
>Your boy Mike, Flopgun, is a
>retired food inspector who will
>lie and belittle you in
>the blink of an eye
>if you disagree with him.
> If you hold your
>ground he will send you
>e-mails saying to leave him
>alone or "people are driving
>to your house to kick
>your ass". If you
>think this is my first
>run in with him you
>are mistaken. Your defense
>of him has fallen on
>deaf ears.

Sorry, but you're wrong again as always, as that's not what I retired from, but I did spend the first few years of a 30+ year career in that! You also refer to an email where all I did was advise that there are a lot of crazies that you might pizz off with your incessant BS that may come looking for you, so sue me! You've also had "runins" with just about everyone on this website and that seems to keep you going and make you happy, so go for it. I'm also a big boy and don't need anyone to defend me from the likes of you, LOL!
 
>Flopgun,
>
>Don't start craw fishing now.
>I have never described this
>person or any of the
>other people accused on these
>forums of poaching as being
>"innocent". Once again you
>have resorted to lying because
>you are too stupid to
>defend your stance.


Your reading comprehension still really sucks, as I stated that you try to come up with all kinds of scenarios as to why people in various poaching threads might be innocent, not that they actually are! You should have been a lawyer on the side the way you can come up with so many stupid possibilites as to why someone may not be guilty.
 
Tristate I am willing to bet my history is far cleaner then yours. I spent 30 years arresting and putting in prison criminals and a few of them were poachers that I caught working my rural hill beat. No I was not a game warden, worked for a sheriff's dept. They were poaching for the money, not making a simple mistake.
I still feel that you show too much sympathy to poachers which is a red flag to any law enforcement officer. Your criminal history or lack of criminal history may not reflect your true feelings about poaching laws. Some poachers are very hard to catch. Just look at the one we are talking about. Took them 15 years to put a case together.
I hope you are not worried about something you may have done a few years back and now must look over your shoulders for the long arm of the law coming for you.

RELH
 
Your still talking. If you're in law enforcement you can check my record and then you don't have to worry about stripping yourself of your professionalism. One thing I have noticed over the years is people in law enforcement don't know how to handle it when a FREE MAN disagrees with either existing laws or how zealots decide to use laws to feed their own agendas. It's easier to start accusing men as a lawbreaker than it is to have an actual logical discussion with that person.

Listen to me now Rehl, I am not afraid of your unprofessional actions on here. The less I am ashamed of myself the more you are willing to shame yourself and law enforcement in general.
 
Topgun-

Just get some popcorn and sit back for awhile this is getting good.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
"It is not Flopgun it is TOPGUN and Mike is very passionate in his compassion for hunting into the future for all of us.

Thanks for your input Mike and to BCBoy for this heads-up thread.."



LMMFAO!

The furthest thing from the truth that I have EVER read! PM in 3... 2... 1...
 
Back to the thread boys IMHO pictures don't lie and ignorance is no excuse for the law. From my seat in the bleachers old Abe don't look so honest!
 

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