Dall Sheep Poaching Trial

photos are photos and thats all they are and the photo in this case only shows that there is a big ram in a photo that presumably is in front of a mountain in the Yukon rather than BC where the ram was suppose to have been taken....SO WHAT....maybe the ram was killed in a brushy draw in BC strapped over a horse and photos taken on the way back to the truck (that may have been parked in the Yukon as the best place to stage the hunt from)The photo could have been taken exactly where the Crown claims it wa taken and it still doesnt mean the ram was shot there. The whole thing could be a big misunderstanding fabricated by Law Enforcement as a result of all the rumors that were started because of the photo.

IT could even be the witness or snitch in this case who was likely an accomplice if the ram was actually poached is getting a big fat paycheck in exchange for his testimony. Testimony that is more likely to untrue because of the legal witness tampering scheme the COs have made for themselves in the form of poaching rewards programs.
A presumption of innocence. Thats what Abe gets because it is proper the COs get a presumption of wrongdoing because thats what witness tampering is, even if its legal.
 
So your gonna put a whole ram dall sheep on a horse, travel 18+ kilometers from where u shot it, and take it off the horse for photos? Didn't kirk darner have a "favorite place" to photograph his kills so he hauled them to the same spot to photograph them? I own a string and would never put anything unnecessary on their backs! Caped and boned at the kill site! Go fish!
 
Tramer,
Can you please describe this so-called fat paycheck in exchange of testimony?? That might be the way it works in your neck of the woods but i have never heard of it in my neck of the woods.
 
Innocent till proven guilty, we can both agree on that trammer. But abes dug a pretty deep hole and it sounds like he's still diggin (he and his partner selling all their pics and mounts) U wanna help him take that damn shovel away from him!
 
Most Poaching cases here in the U.S. are built on the unreliable, many times false testimony of witness who are fishing for Cash and prizes via poaching rewards programs. Nearly every state and Proclamation has them. They are terrible. Because they put witness in collusion with Conservation Officers who many times make stuff up and present it as fact in a Courtroom.They destroy the integrity of the system.
Poaching rewards programs are wrong because witness tampering in general is wrong.So if the State can tamper with witness why cant the defendant? What fair is fair. They are also insulting to honest sportsmen. Think about it, if they work they are an indictment of and insulting to sportsmen in general.Because if they are effective you are forced to conclude that sportsmen wont police their own unless they are paid or bribed to do so.Then it becomes about getting a conviction rather than getting to the truth.
 
>Most Poaching cases here in the
>U.S. are built on the
>unreliable, many times false testimony
>of witness who are fishing
>for Cash and prizes via
>poaching rewards programs. Nearly every
>state and Proclamation has them.
>They are terrible. Because they
>put witness in collusion with
>Conservation Officers who many times
>make stuff up and present
>it as fact in a
>Courtroom.They destroy the integrity of
>the system.
> Poaching rewards programs
>are wrong because witness tampering
>in general is wrong.So if
>the State can tamper with
>witness why cant the defendant?
>What fair is fair. They
>are also insulting to honest
>sportsmen. Think about it, if
>they work they are an
>indictment of and insulting to
>sportsmen in general.Because if they
>are effective you are forced
>to conclude that sportsmen wont
>police their own unless they
>are paid or bribed to
>do so.Then it becomes about
>getting a conviction rather than
>getting to the truth.

Sooooo, how does that apply to this case? You do realize this case is in Canada?
 
Hey Trammer! Why don't you crawl back in your hole and take all your BS about dishonest LE Officials with you! Now you come on here and call other members cowards and poachers, as well as also saying anyone who testifies against a violator is in cahoots with LE to convict an innocent party. IMHO, anyone with your sorry track record of wildlife violations has no basis to be talking about how the court system works. One violation and maybe it's an error against you. Multiple violations like you've been convicted of speaks for itself and the message is that you come across about like Tri in your ramblings about poaching and other wildlife violations!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 03:17PM (MST)[p]Another interesting event has just occurred on this thread. BCboy proclaimed that the suspect is selling his mounts to hunting stores. Where do you get that gossip? Why would you broadcast it here if "you don't judge. And. It has done exactly what BCboy desired. Another member on the website has picked it up and is distributing it again on this thread as if it was fact and an actual logical evidence of guilt.

I think it is also funny how no one believes a man can get set up and ramrodded by LEO's. Do you guys watch the news? There are mountains of examples of LEO's misusing their authority for all kinds of reasons. Money,power, women, jealousy, all can come into play.

Look at what is happening right here right now. I come on here talking about it is silly for the government to spend time and money chasing this type of violation that is fifteen years old. And within 48 hours a "lawman" gets on here and starts accusing me of probably poaching. That's right an LEO will try and crap on a person with ZERO evidence just over a stupid Internet thread. The retired food cop on here has said people are going to come kick my ass because I exposed his malicious stupidity on here. Imagine what these people would do to a person that really stood in their way. Do you think they would care about your rights? Do you think they would worry about the truth? He'll no. They'll wreck you and leave you in their wake.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 04:00PM (MST)[p]Where did I get it from? Hmm, Abe's hunting partner told me. He is definitely another one that knows exactly what went on on that mountain because he was there and killed the second ram. Do you not read Tri ? As for keeping this thread alive and at the top of the list for all to see, you are the one that keeps it up there. If you hadn't of constantly posted here I bet this thread would have less than 20 posts. Hahaha! And please stop comparing your so-called stories of abuses by Fish Cops to this case. Again, Canada is way different. Our CO's have to have a very very strong case before they present it to Crown. Crown will not pursue a case unless they feel confident they have a good chance of winning. Cases like this one rarely ever come up because getting good evidence is so hard when it comes to Wildlife Act offences.
 
Call me old fashioned but I take a man at his word till he gives me a reason not too. And I'm suspicious of those that dont, they generally turn out to be untrustworthy. The news stories u speak of involving Leo's gone bad are an incredibly small minority. Stop and think about exactly how many there are..local, state, homeland Se urity, fish and game, border patrol, armed forces, fbi, cia, and probably a dozen others I've left off. What fraction of 1% are we talkin about? Does it happen? Sure it does, but sooner or later they make the news and are punished and dismissed! Abe will have his day in court to plead his case and the truth will come out.And my point of my first post in this thread still stands....pics don't lie and ignorance is no excuse for the law!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 04:15PM (MST)[p]>Another interesting event has just occurred
>on this thread. BCboy
>proclaimed that the suspect is
>selling his mounts to hunting
>stores. Where do you
>get that gossip? Why
>would you broadcast it here
>if "you don't judge.
>And. It has done exactly
>what BCboy desired. Another
>member on the website has
>picked it up and is
>distributing it again on this
>thread as if it was
>fact and an actual logical
>evidence of guilt.
>
>I think it is also funny
>how no one believes a
>man can get set up
>and ramrodded by LEO's.
>Do you guys watch the
>news? There are mountains of
>examples of LEO's misusing their
>authority for all kinds of
>reasons. Money,power, women, jealousy,
>all can come into play.
>
>
>Look at what is happening right
>here right now. I
>come on here talking about
>it is silly for the
>government to spend time and
>money chasing this type of
>violation that is fifteen years
>old. And within 48
>hours a "lawman" gets on
>here and starts accusing me
>of probably poaching. That's
>right an LEO will try
>and crap on a person
>with ZERO evidence just over
>a stupid Internet thread.
>The retired food cop on
>here has said people are
>going to come kick my
>ass because I exposed his
>malicious stupidity on here.
> Imagine what these people
>would do to a person
>that really stood in their
>way. Do you think
>they would care about your
>rights? Do you think
>they would worry about the
>truth? He'll no.
>They'll wreck you and leave
>you in their wake.

You just keep flapping your gums with no real basis for what you post other than to keep yourself in the forefront, as always. What is "gossip" when it's easily proven that some top quality trophy mounts have been sold to Cabelas by Abe? When certain things are done for no apparent reason and an accomplice of Abe on that sheep hunt 15 years ago tells BCBOY that he and Abe are tired of hunting and selling their trophies when that's their whole life, it isn't gossip and don't you think that is sort of an alarm that something may be possibly amiss? With your continued arguments for why poaching charges shouldn't be filed on about every case that's discussed on this site it probably does make some members wonder what you're doing when you're out and about! Also, if you can argue your side with a bunch of reasons for the possible innocence of a person, why can't others argue as to their guilt? I don't believe anyone on here has said that all LEOs are perfect or that none may do as you describe either. There are rotten LEOs just like there are rotten taxidermists! This retired "food cop" BS is also getting old in that you don't want to see misrepresentations on these threads and yet continue to refer to me improperly after being told several times that I did not retire from that profession. The same thing goes with the lie you keep posting regarding "someone coming to kick your azz"! I can tell you one thing and that is in my 30+ year career the vast majority of people I dealt with were good, honest folks that I had no problem with because they tried their best to abide by all the laws and regulations I enforced for the citizens of MI. Then there was that certain small percentage that would cheat intentionally whenever they thought they could get away with it and they paid high penalties when caught.
 
BCboy, having a friend of a friend tell you a person is doing something is GOSSIP. That's why they don't let it in a trial. It doesn't help show guilt. Men who use logic don't disseminate GOSSIP. People with agendas talk GOSSIP. It's also good that you clarified that your cops are soooooooo much better than ours.

Flopgun, the truth sucks doesn't it? Weren't you the food cop? Aren't you retired? That's what I thought. If you don't like people letting the world know that you send threatening e-mails THEN DON'T SEND THEM. I tell you what send the same e-mail to Obama and see how long it takes to get a knock on your door. Go ahead send it I dare you boy.
 
>BCboy, having a friend of a
>friend tell you a person
>is doing something is GOSSIP.
> That's why they don't
>let it in a trial.
> It doesn't help show
>guilt. Men who use
>logic don't disseminate GOSSIP.
>People with agendas talk GOSSIP.
> It's also good that
>you clarified that your cops
>are soooooooo much better than
>ours.
>
>Flopgun, the truth sucks doesn't it?
> Weren't you the food
>cop? Aren't you retired?
> That's what I thought.
> If you don't like
>people letting the world know
>that you send threatening e-mails
>THEN DON'T SEND THEM.
>I tell you what send
>the same e-mail to Obama
>and see how long it
>takes to get a knock
>on your door. Go
>ahead send it I dare
>you boy.


This ain't no friend of a friend. This is the guy who was there. And I'm sure he will be having his day in court too as he killed the second ram. How many times do I need to say that? Can you read? Hahaha! I wonder how you manage to watch the News everyday. When a bad person is arrested and they interview the victims that say they hope justice is served and they hope the criminal rots in jail, you must jump on the internet and type up a storm regrading biased reporting. Hahaha!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 04:41PM (MST)[p]>BCboy, having a friend of a
>friend tell you a person
>is doing something is GOSSIP.
> That's why they don't
>let it in a trial.
> It doesn't help show
>guilt. Men who use
>logic don't disseminate GOSSIP.
>People with agendas talk GOSSIP.
> It's also good that
>you clarified that your cops
>are soooooooo much better than
>ours.
>
>Flopgun, the truth sucks doesn't it?
> Weren't you the food
>cop? Aren't you retired?
> That's what I thought.
> If you don't like
>people letting the world know
>that you send threatening e-mails
>THEN DON'T SEND THEM.
>I tell you what send
>the same e-mail to Obama
>and see how long it
>takes to get a knock
>on your door. Go
>ahead send it I dare
>you boy.


Hey big mouth! If what BCBOY stated is true and can be verified, then it is not gossip. The guy that told that to BCBOY was "directly" involved in the possible law violations now being tried in Court, as well as the sale of trophies. He was not a friend of a friend telling someone else what someone else was doing, as you stated. If I sent you a threatening email put it up here for everyone to see and read! I'm sure as smart as you think you are that you would have saved such an incriminating message IF it was sent! You continue to talk down to everyone on this site calling them "boy" etc., and I guarantee you wouldn't pull that crap on many people in person or you'd be gathering your teeth off the sidewalk! Why should people believe anything you post when 99% (%99 for you, LOL!) is BS trash you keep posting. You know exactly what was in that email I sent and there was no threat at all on my part and you know it. Again, if it was what you say, then post it up loudmouth! Yes, I was in LE involving the food industry for a time in the 70s at the beginning of my career. I did not retire in that profession and didn't have anything to do with it through the 80s until I retired in 2002. Therefore, I did not retire as a a food cop as you keep posting. Talk about taking a couple truths and stretching them into something that is totally false!
 
How was he "there"? Did he broker the deal for Cabelas? Did he deliver the animals? Did he take the payment? It's GOSSIP! Did he have receipts that he showed you?

Maybe one day you would like someone spreading gossip about you when you have some trouble and you are having to sell your posessions to keep going. There is something fundamentally wrong with a person, YOU, who thinks gossip about others business is first, a point of satisfaction, and second, evidence of wrong doing.
 
I said you were a retired food cop. You just verified it. Like I said send the same e-mail to Obama and see what happens to you. Quit talking and do it. Loose your nerve, boy? And I don't call everyone "boy". Just a sniveling lying twit like you and yes I will say it right to your face.
 
>How was he "there"? Did
>he broker the deal for
>Cabelas? Did he deliver
>the animals? Did he
>take the payment? It's
>GOSSIP! Did he have
>receipts that he showed you?
>
>
>Maybe one day you would like
>someone spreading gossip about you
>when you have some trouble
>and you are having to
>sell your posessions to keep
>going. There is something
>fundamentally wrong with a person,
>YOU, who thinks gossip about
>others business is first, a
>point of satisfaction, and second,
>evidence of wrong doing.

Tri, go back and read what I wrote. If you still don 't comprehend it, read it again. You really need some practice at reading, so better read it a third time just so it can sink on.
 
couple things I got out of this thread. trammer and tristate really portray themselves as real pieces of work and i would never want to be associated with either. I also hold suspect anybody who has so much hatred and distrust for government and law enforcement.
 
>I said you were a retired
>food cop. You just
>verified it. Like I
>said send the same e-mail
>to Obama and see what
>happens to you. Quit
>talking and do it.
>Loose your nerve, boy?
>And I don't call everyone
>"boy". Just a sniveling
>lying twit like you and
>yes I will say it
>right to your face.


Big talk from a real jerk! Like I said before, post it up or STFU!!!
 
>couple things I got out of
>this thread. trammer and tristate
>really portray themselves as real
>pieces of work and i
>would never want to be
>associated with either. I also
>hold suspect anybody who has
>so much hatred and distrust
>for government and law enforcement.
>


Ya think, LOL!
 
Accumark,

Like most on here you have jumped to a silly conclusion. Nowhere have I stated that I "hate" government or law enforcement. I realize they are flawed human beings no better or worse than most people. As a result anyone who states they can blindly trust any person who has a badge and uniform is foolish.
 
Why don't you post it. You have it right? Your not ashamed are you boy? I ain't gonna stfu. It bugs you that people use their right to speak doesn't it?
 
Hey Flopgun, BCboy just folded under cross examination. See this is what amazes me. You claim to know how to prosecute people but then you don't understand what hearsay or gossip is. Do you know why they don't allow gossip in a trial. It isn't to protect the defendant. No it's to keep uneducated gossipers from being ripped to bits by defense attorney and making the prosecution look like a bunch of dumb zealots that would rather ruin people's lives than work hard for facts.
 
>Was he part of the sale,
>yes or no, and what
>evidence does he have that
>he was? Answer the
>question.
Okay let me get this right. If I answer your Question I will be labeled by you as irresponsible again right? Hahaha. YES, he was part of the sale. He told me himself. Are you asking if I have evidence to proof he was telling me the truth? Well the heads are missing! I would assume all an investigator would have to do is contact Cabelas and figure out what store they went to as he told me cabelas was the company they were selling to.
 
Hahaha ! You certainly like to pretend you are a good internet attorney don't ya? Keep on posting and this thread will remain at the top. You complain about the attention this accused poacher is getting but you are the one promoting that attention. Hook line and sinker. You certainly are easy to predict. I knew what you were going to do right from the start. Hahaha! Thanks for the entertainment Tri!
 
Tri, keep trying. Maybe one day you can pass the Bar and be a real defence attorney instead if playing one on the internet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 05:54PM (MST)[p]I got tired of reading all the back and forth stuff with Tristate, so this might have been mentioned, but I don't see how in the world any kind of decent guide (or even a decent hunter) could have been mistaken on where they were at.

The picture shows that he said he shot the sheep very near a big lake. The lake was over 20 miles south of where he shot the sheep. Almost guaranteed that they would have flown into the lake on a float plane. There are some very narrow lakes up near where he actually shot the sheep, it would be very easy to tell the difference if you had even bothered to look at a map before, during or after your hunt.

Maybe he was in such good shape he hiked 20+ miles north after getting dropped off and thought it was only 1/2 mile?

DOUGAN-MAP.jpg
 
Npaden,

That is where someone else says Abe says he killed the sheep. Also I have been flown into areas that were right on top of water bodies by planes with no floats.
 
I did look over some topo maps of the area and there are places where it looks like you could land a bush plane without using the water landing option. Also if someone is dropped off at a lake how do you realize just how big a lake is without circling the lake and or not having a boat. I am just saying its possible they were under the impression they were in the BC unit. I am also saying its possible they were in the Yukon and knew it. The point I am getting at is both are possible.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
So that looks like a 30km difference, that he packed that sheep whole on a horse? Really? Really?
 
Can we agree the 2 photos have the same background and appear to be shot from roughly the same spot?
 
>Quit dodging the question and answer.
> How was your friend
>"part of the sale"?

Where did I ever say he was my friend? Giver another tri, Tri. Who is jumping to conclusions? He actually is just a guy I have met a few times while hunting. Funny that he would tell me, just a random dude glassing the same hillside, about how he and Abe were selling their trophies to cabelas. He told me the prices and I was shocked how low they were. Considering the cost of a trip, airfare and taxidermy, IMO they weren't even breaking even. Like I said earlier, at the time he told me Abe and him had lost the passion for hunting that is why he said they were selling.
 
I totally agree that the two photos look exceptionally close. I would also like to state I am amazed how poor the quality is of the recent pic.
 
That's even better! So some random dude you met in the woods said he and Abe are selling mounts to Cabellas AND YOU DON'T CONSIDER THAT GOSSIP????? That's rich! Really, really rich.
 
Then my question is how and why did the sheep get moved 30km whole into the wrong area? U had a camera let's see the pics at the kill site.
 
Nope, because I knew the dude's name and he knew mine. This was in 2012. I had no reason to believe any wrong doing was being discussed as the first time I learned of the court case was reading the same news article I posted at the top of the thread. Now, I see that they may have been hiding evidence. And yup, that is a conclusion I am jumping to since the head in question is missing. Gossip? I don't think so since I was personally talking to one of the suspected poachers that was actually there.
 
DW,

Is that question for me? I never said the sheep got moved, but I guess if you wanted to move a sheep 30 clicks on that country you would use the helicopter that BCboy uses.
 
First of all if you want any credibility, and believe me this is a very very small amount, you have to produce a name. Second, just because you know a name doesn't mean he isn't some random dude. Third, selling a mount, ISN'T HOW YOU GET RID OF EVIDENCE! If you get busted for DWI and sell your car your not getting rid of evidence.
 
U didn't say the sheep got moved.....the evidence did. Or the evidence said the sheep was killed in the yukon.....it's 1 or the other!
 
>Why don't you post it.
>You have it right?
>Your not ashamed are you
>boy? I ain't gonna
>stfu. It bugs you
>that people use their right
>to speak doesn't it?


Nope, but it bugs me that you keep lying and you would have it if it was sent and caused you so much distress that you keep referring to it, LOL! I can't post it because I don't have any PMs I send, as the system doesn't save it on my computer. If I had it, I'd sure as heck post it to show exactly what was sent and that it wasn't any kind of a threat as you keeplying about.
 
1 scenario defies logic and common sense. The other proves guilt either negligent or blatant, but guilt non the less.
 
DW,

You along with others have totally ignored what I have been saying. I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED THIS PERSON TO BE INNOCENT or guilty. Go read my posts. My argument was whether law enforcement should be hunting fifteen year old wildlife violations of this level and second whether a person should lose their capability to provide for their family over what could be a simple mistake.

In the mean time I have proven that BCboy has his own childish agenda and desire to ruin this person altogether.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]>First of all if you want
>any credibility, and believe me
>this is a very very
>small amount, you have to
>produce a name. Second,
>just because you know a
>name doesn't mean he isn't
>some random dude. Third,
>selling a mount, ISN'T HOW
>YOU GET RID OF EVIDENCE!
> If you get busted
>for DWI and sell your
>car your not getting rid
>of evidence.


Tri, you are a Hypocrite! You call me out as irresponsible because of your so-called definition of gossip, that will damage the reputation of a suspected poacher, who is already on trial, and yet you then want me to disclose the name of his partner, who has yet to be put on trial. If you want his name, I'm sure you know how to use Google. Find it yourself you gossip loving hypocrite! Hahaha
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 07:58PM (MST)[p]>DW,
>
>You along with others have totally
>ignored what I have been
>saying. I HAVE NEVER
>CLAIMED THIS PERSON TO BE
>INNOCENT or guilty. Go
>read my posts. My
>argument was whether law enforcement
>should be hunting fifteen year
>old wildlife violations of this
>level and second whether a
>person should lose their capability
>to provide for their family
>over what could be a
>simple mistake.
>
>In the mean time I have
>proven that BCboy has his
>own childish agenda and desire
>to ruin this person altogether.
>


The only thing you've proven is that your friggin reading comprehension is at about the third grade level!!!
 
And the trail goes cold. When you realized you couldn't be credible you had to start calling me names. Hey BCboy when is the crown going to call you as a witness? I bet you're gonna be the star and blow this whole thing wide open

"I met a guy on a mountain that I can't say his name that told me a guy he knows is doing SOMETHING TOTALLY LEGAL but that must mean they are actually criminals. By the way this random dude may be being prosecuted for a crime but we should all believe him"

BCboy, if you don't even know what gossip is how can you call someone a hypocrite? Oh I forgot someone on the side of a mountain said so.
 
>DW,
>
>You along with others have totally
>ignored what I have been
>saying. I HAVE NEVER
>CLAIMED THIS PERSON TO BE
>INNOCENT or guilty. Go
>read my posts. My
>argument was whether law enforcement
>should be hunting fifteen year
>old wildlife violations of this
>level and second whether a
>person should lose their capability
>to provide for their family
>over what could be a
>simple mistake.
>
>In the mean time I have
>proven that BCboy has his
>own childish agenda and desire
>to ruin this person altogether.
>


Hahaha! All you have proven is you consistently argue the Devil's Advocate and take the side if the poacher every time a wildlife offence case is brought up on this site. You have done here what I predicted you would do. You have given this case the attention that it needed. Thank you!
 
You lay in the bed u make. This man stole from all of us, by the looks of things, then built a business based on that theft. My tool trailer has been broken into and cleaned out in the middle of the night 3 times, twice 16yrs ago. If you brought those theifs to me tomorrow I wouldn't say "let em go". I'd be beggin for 5 min alone with em! There's 3 types of people I don't tolerate the lier, the cheat, or the thief....abes shapein up to be all 3! If it was 15yrs ago or 15 minutes ago doesn't matter IMHO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]You too lazy to look for it yourself? Hypocrite because your desire the gossip that you so vocally condone. I am confident that the authorities know how to locate those heads without my testimony. You are the one pretending this discussion thread is the actual courthouse not me. You can call me a gossip all you want. You are the one looking for gossip. Abe's partner's name should be easy one to find. It is in the same Book that Abe wrote the story concerning this ram. Hell, even the organization that produce that book have a link on their Facebook page to the same news article I put up at the start of this thread. If you are worried about Abe's reputation as a guide, there are several sites that have much bigger discussions than this one. Oh my God, how will he ever get a fair trial?
 
He didn't steal anything and he hasn't been charged with stealing anything. Sorry to here about someone stealing your tools but you shouldn't be malicious toward a stranger because of it. I am totally in agreement that when you break the law then you have to pay. But should killing a sheep across a line that sheep don't recognize and you have authorization to kill a sheep, be a crime so horrible that we should take away your livelihood and effectively victimize a family and not just the lawbreaker?
 
Dude your busted. Call me whatever name you want. You posted this with an agenda to rip someone apart. I don't care who reads this because none of it has any credibility and now even less since this thread.
 
Yes he stole the opportunity for someone to legally harvest a terrific trophy! The train has left station, what's comin down the track for Abe can't be stopped. Stealing my tools took food from the mouths of my family as all thefts do! Hopefully when the verdict is made we can revisit this again with more details
 
And your original question was "was he knowingly in the yukon?" Not whether he should b persude.
 
>He didn't steal anything and he
>hasn't been charged with stealing
>anything. Sorry to here
>about someone stealing your tools
>but you shouldn't be malicious
>toward a stranger because of
>it. I am totally
>in agreement that when you
>break the law then you
>have to pay. But
>should killing a sheep across
>a line that sheep don't
>recognize and you have authorization
>to kill a sheep, be
>a crime so horrible that
>we should take away your
>livelihood and effectively victimize a
>family and not just the
>lawbreaker?

And there is your agenda. You don't think poachers are thieves and shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. You just showed your reason for posting here. Thank God you don't make the rules and internet discussions on MM don't influence a court in Kamloops BC. Here, poachers are considered thieves that steal from the people, hunter and non-hunter alike. Wildlife are owned by the Crown (the People).
 
Tristate, the illegal taking of a trophy grade animal is considered a very serious crime with every game and fish dept. that I know of. If a law enforcement officer is convicted of a serious crime he loses his job and is blacklisted from working in law enforcement. Why do you feel a licensed hunting guide should not be treated the same.

RELH
 
>Dude your busted. Call me
>whatever name you want.
>You posted this with an
>agenda to rip someone apart.
> I don't care
>who reads this because none
>of it has any credibility
>and now even less since
>this thread.

My credibility is just fine dude, yours on the other hand, is in the toilet. Do you think the masses of MM will respect you when you say poachers are not thieves and should not be held accountable for their actions?
 
>He didn't steal anything and he
>hasn't been charged with stealing
>anything. Sorry to here
>about someone stealing your tools
>but you shouldn't be malicious
>toward a stranger because of
>it. I am totally
>in agreement that when you
>break the law then you
>have to pay. But
>should killing a sheep across
>a line that sheep don't
>recognize and you have authorization
>to kill a sheep, be
>a crime so horrible that
>we should take away your
>livelihood and effectively victimize a
>family and not just the
>lawbreaker?


What does the good book say...."an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"? U said u were a christian. I too believe in the book!
 
Tristate,

Are you serious?

I am totally in agreement that when you break the law then you have to pay. But should killing a sheep across a line that sheep don't recognize and you have authorization to kill a sheep, be a crime so horrible that we should take away your livelihood and effectively victimize a family and not just the lawbreaker?

Yes, I do think that his livelihood should be taken away, and here is why.

When you choose to make your living as a hunting guide, you are held to a higher standard, and rightfully so. As a guide/outfitter it is imperative that you understand the laws, regulations, and the fuggin' boundaries of where you are taking paying clients. Further, even when an outfitter is hunting for his/her self, you have to follow the letter of the law to a "T". Your reputation as a hunter, is a big part of what can make, or break, your outfitting business. I would never book a hunt with an outfitter that had a history of poaching...whether on his own hunt, or while guiding a client.

While I agree that there are gray areas in some cases, this is clearly not one of them.

It would be one thing if the guy was 100 yards from the boundary...but come on, the evidence is pretty clear-cut that he is wayyyy beyond a reasonable doubt.

I've hunted unlimited sheep on the Yellowstone NP Border, and I can tell you that I made damn sure that I knew exactly where the line was at all times, no exceptions. I also didnt have a GPS when I hunted there, reading maps isnt that tough. If, for some reason, I wasnt sure where the park boundary was, I wouldnt have just shot a sheep and hoped for the best.

In the case being discussed here, he flat should have known where the Yukon line was, period. If he didnt know where he was, he shouldnt have shot the sheep.

Actions have consequences....
 
So the elk in unit 10 do not see the line in Colorado so can I go kill one with my otc tag in unit 10
 
>So the elk in unit 10
>do not see the line
>in Colorado so can I
>go kill one with my
>otc tag in unit 10
>


I wouldn't recommend it. We now have the Sampson law that's how serious Coloradans take poaching (stealing). Large fine for large critter! (And I know u were makin a point)
 
I love the response of he "stole an opportunity" from someone else. Can you show me in law anywhere where stolen opportunity is recognized as a crime????? How do you measure opportunity? Can you fight for opportunity community property in a divorce? Boy I would love to see that.

I get it we have had this argument before. Yall believe poaching is stealing. You have read and drank the propaganda punch for the last 3 decades that poaching is "stealing". Never mind the fact that when you are brought to trial the word "stealing" never once comes up except for maybe in a closing argument. So I pose this question to yall poor victimized wildlife owners. Go shoot someone's bull in their pasture. Turn yourselves into the law. See what you get charged with and the penalties. Do you think you get charged anywhere near what you get charged if you go shoot "someone's opportunity"? I'll give you a tip here, it ain't even close. While we are at it when we decide to call poachers thieves why don't we call pot smokers murderers. After all their drug habit finances Mexican drug cartels that have been fighting a bloody civil war. Yeah life in prison or the needle for pot smokers. Or we can prosecute DWI offenders more heavily since they are "stealing your opportunity" to have a car without scratches and dings. And then lets come out with a Federal statute to show that if you speed across a state line its now a federal felony. After all you "own" the highways. Yeah that makes since. Lets start modeling all our laws off of the jacked up wildlife system.

Rehl, How serious of a crime do you have to commit before you are stripped of your badge? Speeding ticket, DWI, misdemeanor drug possession????????? Also do you know why you are held to a higher standard? It is because you are given authority to subvert laws under conditions which deem it. Yes you actually get to be above the law that others have to live under, under designated circumstance which you are required to use good judgment as needed. The stiffer penalties are set in place to deter you from abusing such authority. ABE HAD NO AUTHORITY OVER ANYONE. HE DOESN"T EVER GET TO SUBVERT THE LAW FOR ANY REASON. That is the difference between your job and his job.
 
I guess if u don't think wildlife are a renewable resource that belong to all of us then we just have to agree to disagree. Maybe u don't want to agree it's stealing cause that was 1 of the top ten he gave to moses that day on the mountain. I thought there were stories all the time about cops gone bad on the news? They get fired! They're not above the law! That's how that news story ends everytime. And I'm just a dumb carpenter but "a stolen opportunity" isn't a crime it's part of an argument used to convict a thief.
 
"I guess if u don't think wildlife are a renewable resource that belong to all of us then we just have to agree to disagree."

I do think its a renewable resource and that is the problem. Yall act like its a shattered diamond that can never be replaced and therefore we must ruin entire bloodlines that abuse the sacred herd.

" Maybe u don't want to agree it's stealing cause that was 1 of the top ten he gave to moses that day on the mountain."

"Thou shalt not whack game over the border". Where on the tablets was that. God never decided you "own" the wildlife so don't get self righteous.

" I thought there were stories all the time about cops gone bad on the news? They get fired! They're not above the law! That's how that news story ends everytime."

They are above the law which you and I live under. That is my point. Can you speed at will? Can you run red lights at will? Can you assault men while screaming stop resisting? Can you Detain anyone you please for questioning? No you can't you get charged with a crime when you do all of that. Don't kid yourself and think cops or politicians are on the same level of law as you and me.

"And I'm just a dumb carpenter but "a stolen opportunity" isn't a crime it's part of an argument used to convict a thief."

That is never part of an argument to convict a thief. It can't be quantified or proven therefore it holds no place in the chain of logic for a proof. It can be allowed in a closing argument which is nothing but the final emotional throws of a trial.
 
Holy shisnitz this thread is ridiculous! Leave for a day or two and it blows up into useless non-sense. 1 million words typed and you guys are still poking the angry mouse. Must be a very very slow weekend for scouting ;)

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
>"I guess if u don't think
>wildlife are a renewable resource
>that belong to all of
>us then we just have
>to agree to disagree."
>
>I do think its a renewable
>resource and that is the
>problem. Yall act like
>its a shattered diamond that
>can never be replaced and
>therefore we must ruin entire
>bloodlines that abuse the sacred
>herd.
>
>" Maybe u don't want to
>agree it's stealing cause that
>was 1 of the top
>ten he gave to moses
>that day on the mountain."
>
>
>"Thou shalt not whack game over
>the border". Where on
>the tablets was that.
>God never decided you "own"
>the wildlife so don't get
>self righteous.
>
>" I thought there were stories
>all the time about cops
>gone bad on the news?
>They get fired! They're not
>above the law! That's how
>that news story ends everytime."
>
>
>They are above the law which
>you and I live under.
> That is my point.
> Can you speed at
>will? Can you run
>red lights at will?
>Can you assault men while
>screaming stop resisting? Can
>you Detain anyone you please
>for questioning? No you
>can't you get charged with
>a crime when you do
>all of that. Don't
>kid yourself and think cops
>or politicians are on the
>same level of law as
>you and me.
>
> "And I'm just a dumb
>carpenter but "a stolen opportunity"
>isn't a crime it's part
>of an argument used to
>convict a thief."
>
>That is never part of an
>argument to convict a thief.
> It can't be quantified
>or proven therefore it holds
>no place in the chain
>of logic for a proof.
> It can be allowed
>in a closing argument which
>is nothing but the final
>emotional throws of a trial.
>

Ok point by point
u say "can never be replaced" when I said "renewable"
U say "Thou shall not whack game over the border" when I was referring to "Thou shall not steal"
U say "they are above the law" when I say the story ends with them being fired and aren't above the law
U say " it's never part of an argument then it is part of the closing argument when I said "stolen opportunity is used as an arguement"
If you want to disagree then disagree with my points not tangents in your mind. Alot of what u say makes no sense and it's beginning to bore the hell out of me!
 
I think Tri needs to read both the BC Wildlife Act and the Yukon Wildlife Act . Google is your friend Tri. They are big documents with lots of words. I know your reading comprehension is poor.
 
Bcboy,

I think you need to quit finding satisfaction in the destruction of other people's lives.

DW,

I think next time you are out hunting and suspect someone is or has poached then you should tie restrain them with force if necessary and then when the police show up you should tell them to charge him with "stealing". You should finally get two lessons you should have received long ago.
 
>Bcboy,
>
>I think you need to quit
>finding satisfaction in the destruction
>of other people's lives.
>
>DW,
>
>I think next time you are
>out hunting and suspect someone
>is or has poached then
>you should tie restrain them
>with force if necessary and
>then when the police show
>up you should tell them
>to charge him with "stealing".
> You should finally get
>two lessons you should have
>received long ago.

Ok I'll play, humor me lesson giver
 
>Bcboy,
>
>I think you need to quit
>finding satisfaction in the destruction
>of other people's lives.
>
>DW,
>
>I think next time you are
>out hunting and suspect someone
>is or has poached then
>you should tie restrain them
>with force if necessary and
>then when the police show
>up you should tell them
>to charge him with "stealing".
> You should finally get
>two lessons you should have
>received long ago.


I see your ignoring the facts of my last post
 
"I see your ignoring the facts of my last post"

Facts :D Rrrrrrrrrrriiight. No I am ignoring silliness from a person who thinks he speaks for God.

As for whether I am going to teach you a lesson there is absolutely nothing I can do of the sort. The criminal justice system will teach you the lesson if you try the experiment.
 
>"I see your ignoring the facts
>of my last post"
>
>Facts :D Rrrrrrrrrrriiight. No
>I am ignoring silliness from
>a person who thinks he
>speaks for God.
>
>As for whether I am going
>to teach you a lesson
>there is absolutely nothing I
>can do of the sort.
> The criminal justice system
>will teach you the lesson
>if you try the experiment.
>

Is that how they pretend to win discussions where u come from? When presented with facts deflect and change the conversation? Out here we call that a war of wits with the unarmed!
 
"Is that how they pretend to win discussions where u come from? When presented with facts deflect and change the conversation?"

You fail to understand what a "fact" is. Until you learn this why continue with the discussion? You fail to even understand what a discussion is. You really believe you "win" discussions???? How old are you boy? At what point did your education cease to matter?

" Out here we call that a war of wits with the unarmed!"

Out here we call it pistol whipping blind kids.
 
And there u go.....when u can't win the argument resort to name calling! Is that very Christian tri?
 
What did you get called? Where on your version of the ten commandments does it say I can't say that? Come on keep speaking for God. You haven't stopped yet.

By the way even if I did call you a name its very Christian to do so.
 
>What did you get called?
>Where on your version of
>the ten commandments does it
>say I can't say that?
> Come on keep speaking
>for God. You haven't
>stopped yet.
>
>By the way even if I
>did call you a name
>its very Christian to do
>so.


I can hook u up with a good heating and air guy? I'm thinkin that shop of yours has a ventilation problem.
 
Rather sure you guys are getting him pizzed cause when people start calling someone else "boy" that is a sign their blood is rising in temp :)
I have seen at least twice now, maybe 3 times.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
>Rather sure you guys are getting
>him pizzed cause when people
>start calling someone else "boy"
>that is a sign their
>blood is rising in temp
>:)
>I have seen at least twice
>now, maybe 3 times.
>
>Mntman
>
>"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
>
>
>
>Let me guess, you drive a
>1 ton with oak trees
>for smoke stacks, 12" lift
>kit and 40" tires to
>pull a single place lawn
>mower trailer?


Think he's turnin green?
 
Ha Ha, I thought I was the only one dumb enough
To argue with Parry Mason (TRITIP)

Carry on

Tritip you are wrong as usual.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
SO Wiley you want law enforcement to have the right to prosecute you for every crime you have ever committed for how far back?
 
Guess that would depend on the crime.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
But see Wiley that's my point. Its out of your hands. You don't get to decide which crimes.

Lets say you have to turn over copies of all your hunting photos and they dig up every single story you have ever put on the internet about hunting and they get to use every bit of that to bring charges against you for something that might have happened over a decade ago. How secure does that make you feel about the future of hunting and criminal justice? What if they find something you didn't even know about and its going to cost you your job?

Look at the Wasatch elk situation going on right now. I'll go ahead and confess right now I don't know if the antelope I killed last year was tagged correctly. I spoke to two outfitters, a game warden, and the general info line for the state and nobody knew what the new rules were with the new tags. Fifteen years from now will I be brought up on charges?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-14 AT 02:36PM (MST)[p]There is a huge difference between minor wildlife offences like a improperly canceled tag and a major offence like poaching a critter like a thinhorn sheep, that is very sensitive to overharvest, One results in a minor fine or perhaps even just a warning, and the other results in a court case with hefty fines, a loss of hunting privileges and even the risk or jail time. To put this into terms you might understand. If you drive 5-10 kms/hr over the speed limit you could get a speeding ticket or just a warning. Drive 20 kms/hr over the limit and you will receive a hefty fine and your vehicle will be impounded at your cost for a week. Drive 40kms/hr over and cause an accident, you will be facing lost driving privileges, huge fines, forfeiture of your vehicle and even jail time. Kill someone in an accident due to excessive speeding and you could end up in a trial for manslaughter. The excessive speeder will have his live changed. He may loose his job too. He made a choice and so did the poacher. The courts will decide on both men's fate. If they acted within the accordance of the law, they wouldn't be facing a life altering court decision.
 
BCboy,
I am not talking about the difference in severity. I am talking about the amount of time they have to prosecute you, and no matter how severe it is sounds like you just have the state of mind of suck it up. You did the crime now do the time. If they want to send you a bill for a speeding ticket from fifteen years ago no problem right. Well how about All fifteen years of speeding. How about this. Do you get hit for what the penalty was 15 years ago when you committed the crime or do they just go ahead and ram you for what the penalty would be if you did it now. You know that isn't even close to the same thing. That could be the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. How about the crime you do right now. How do you know in fifteen years it won't be a felony then. Are you starting to see the magnitude of the slippery slope that you are happy to push someone else down?
 
The reality u continue to ignore is Abe didn't shoot a doe to feed his family 15yrs ago.......He stole a world class sheep!
 
I would hope that I'm safe from being prosecuted
For drinking beer before I turned 21.

Conversely I hope all rapists, killers and poachers
Are eventually brought to justice eventually.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Using the example of the excessive speeder, if the speeder killed someone in a hit and run and gets away but then 15 years later new evidence is found that the Crown thinks is enough to lead to a conviction, Yup, they will pursue charges. Severity of the crime has everything to do with it.
 
If you think a hit and run speeder is in the same boat as a guy that whacks a sheep illegally you have serious mental issues.

Second if you are buying into this speciest attitude that this sheep was better than all other animals and that is why we must hang this guy then you are no better than and giving credit to the anti-hunting community.
 
"I would hope that I'm safe from being prosecuted
For drinking beer before I turned 21. "

And in that lies the problem. Do you hope they never find a wildlife violation on you that you didn't even know about?
 
>If you think a hit and
>run speeder is in the
>same boat as a guy
>that whacks a sheep illegally
>you have serious mental issues.
>
>
>Second if you are buying into
>this speciest attitude that this
>sheep was better than all
>other animals and that is
>why we must hang this
>guy then you are no
>better than and giving credit
>to the anti-hunting community.

I can sure see why you started a taxidermy business of your own instead of using your biologist degree you got from A&M to do good for wildlife, as it seems from the BS you spout that you don't give a damn about animals unless they are brought to your shop to fatten your wallet!
 
Actually Flopgun I "give a damn" about ALL animals and I am not going to sit here and pretend that one is better than all others.
 
>Actually Flopgun I "give a damn"
>about ALL animals and I
>am not going to sit
>here and pretend that one
>is better than all others.
>


Colorado has a law called the Sampson law that says just that! After a certain size the fine gets dramatically higher!
 
>"whacking a dumb animal over a
>boundary." Sure you care big
>guy. You getting winded from
>running circles yet?


He enjoys bein the pivot man!
 

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