Elk gun recommendations?

[3blade]

hey guys, this is an old bowhunter here considering taking up muzzleloaders to extend my hunting seasons. I'm not new to muzzys, had a couple rifles yrs ago and still have 2 1858 Army pistols.

What I'm looking at is this, I want an elk gun in the hawken style capable of 120 yd kills. Considering the Lyman Trade rifle or the Great plains but man the gpr is 9 pounds so that could get real old when your trudging through the hills. I know there are others out there but these two seem to be the best deal for the price, especially the Trade rifle. Was thinking about 54 caliber and shooting a round ball, any thoughts on that?

I have heard stories of sabots and conicals turning when hitting elk and wounding the animals or only taking out one lung for the same reason. Another post in another forum said he had seen them turn 90 degrees. Is that possible or has anyone else heard that?

Or am I better off possibly going with a 50 cal and shooting a conical?

I could also get a Green mtn barrel for the trade rifle in 1/28 twist so I could be as accurate as possible if conicals are the better way to go.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Idahoron]

Go back and read some of the threads I have posted about TC Renegads and 1-28 twist barrels. Green Mountain barrels will shoot very well. Ron

 

[txhunter58]

Can you kill an elk cleanly with a round ball? Absolutely. Is it as effective as conicals, not in my opinion. If I wanted to be confident out to 120 yards, I personally would shoot a conical.

The reason to consider a 50 caliber is that is what most people shoot, so bullets, etc are easier to find. I have a T/C renegade that I have an original 54 caliber barrel for and recently got a GMB in 50 caliber, so that I can shoot the same bullets as my Omega. If you cast your own bullets, then the caliber is not as big of an issue.

Store bought conicals choices? There are lots out there. Of pure lead conicals, you would be hard pressed to find a better one than the No Excuse 460 grain. Usually accurate and really packs a wallop. I have also used the 370 grain maxiball (not maxihunter) with good results.

There are many other choices, but I personally have started using the new Hornady FPB conical. it is a lead alloy that holds together better than pure lead conicals. It did great on a big cow elk last fall in Colorado.

Of course, you can also use powerbelts. With them for elk, bigger is better, and DO NOT push them very hard. 80 to 100 grains of black powder equivalent is plenty. Pushed harder, they tend to come apart. I have used the 405 aerotip, but the 338 platinum is also a good choice, although very pricey.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Rem308]

I have a 54 Renegade and love shooting it,but 54 cal. bullets are about impossible for me to find locally,I have to order them. I would stay with a 50 cal and forget hunting elk with a round ball.Something in the 350 grain bullet as a minimum.

 

[APBT]

I took my elk out with my .54 patch round ball shooter with 80gr pyrodex RS and a 140 yard double lung shot. She only went 60 yards with a good blood trail.

www.ThePowerbeltForum.Powerguild.net

 

[3blade]

thanks guys. So I could put a 50 cal green mtn barrel on a 54 cal lyman trade rifle? I can't seem to find any info if both barrels are the same width or not? Any body know?

 

[txhunter58]

Cabelas has them and it says they work for the Lyman trade rifle. However, they are offered in 15/16 or 1 inch.

I bet the customer service will know what size to get.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[3blade]

>Go back and read some of
>the threads I have posted
>about TC Renegads and 1-28
>twist barrels. Green Mountain barrels
>will shoot very well.
> Ron

Ok, I have done that and I have to say your rifles are some tack drivers. I wanted to ask you though, hows the recoil on those 50 cal loads? About like a 12 gauge shotgun maybe?

 

[Sagebrush1]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-09 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]the trades rifle comes with a 1-48 twist it will shoot conicals and round balls. it is better to have a 1-70 twist for round balls.
I have two trades rifles, bought an extra barrel which is a 1-70 twist that is made by green mountain barrel. I bought it from
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gqn11abtf1dsif55wb15yg45))/index.aspx
they have some good prices for barrels
and will shoot round balls pretty darn good. I can get them touching at 50 yards and a 3" group at 100 yards.

I put a Lyman 57 peep sight on this rifle and you can not go wrong this set up. I also cast my own balls and conicals (real lee bullet mold) look under reloading tools.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gqn11abtf1dsif55wb15yg45))/categories/partList.aspx?catID=18&subID=126&styleID=980

if you really have a lot of questions go to this site it is only for traditional muzzle loaders only
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/f...446ab1312d0ac08896aea5751af1bb/fbb_uid/16205/

do not listen to people telling you not to buy a 54 because of it is hard to find ammo, that is B.S.

I have been shooting a 54 cal for 15 years and have yet to have any problems finding ammo for it.

 

[Rem308]

>
>I took my elk out with
>my .54 patch round ball
>shooter with 80gr pyrodex RS
>and a 140 yard double
>lung shot. She only went
>60 yards with a good
>blood trail.
>
>www.ThePowerbeltForum.Powerguild.net


Congradulations on your elk. Every elk is a good elk!

I have only took deer with the round ball but am not confident enough that I could use the round ball for elk.The elk I have taken took alot to bring down,even with a 30-06 they may run for aways before expirering.. Elk are tuff animals.

 

[Frontier]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 11:47?AM (MST)

My hats go off to those who hunt with a round ball for elk and limits the distance their shooting to 60yds and under. There is absolutely no question a good flying conical has more energy than a round ball, and the heavier the better when shooting conicals. If I were hunting with a round ball, it would be in 54 cal.

For the problem of conicals turning, it is a real problem if you are not shooting a twist fast enough. If you have a 1/48" twist then you absolutely should not shoot over a 350 grain conical in 50 caliber. The longer the conical the faster the twist needs to be. The 1/24" to 1/32" are your best conical shooters. The next critical problem you have is to match your load so you're not deforming the bullet or getting blow by. If you over load, here again you could start your conical to tumble, and of course accuracy goes out the window.

I think the Great Plains rifle is a value that cannot be beat. Green Mountain barrels are great, I have two of them. You can also buy either barrel, slow twist or the hunter barrel from lyman, or one of their distributers.

I splurged 1 and half years ago and bought a Perdersoli Missouri River Hawken, 1/24" twist. I got a really good deal on it, but they are worth the $800 price tag they carry however. It really shoots wonderful. Perfectly balanced and the barrel is as good of quality I have seen in any muzzleloader.

Good luck, great to see another in the ranks. From one old bowhunter to another.

 

[Idahoron]

3blade,
Recoil is going to get stiffer as the bullet weight goes up. Any time you are pushing a 400 plus bullet with 80 grains of powder or more you are going to have recoil. A 12 gage would be a fair comparison in some ways. Even though you have about the same size projectile and the speed is about the same, the two different powders burn different and so the recoil is a bit different.
There are two different camps. The guys that say a PRB is more than enough to handle any animal at any range at any angle, and foot pounds of energy is a myth.
Then there are guys that like conicals, and they do believe in foot pounds of energy. I like conicals, I am not going to say a PRB is not going to kill an elk. It has been proven time and time again. I am in the camp that does believe in foot pounds of energy. I went with conicals because I just don't care for PRB?s and that was my choice.
For one of my rifles I use the 460 gr 500 S&W bullet paper patched. That bullet likes 80 gr of pyrodex P in my gun. If a guy believes in FPE, that load has it big time. With 1737 FPE at the muzzle and 1281 at 150 yards I like this load. I have used some other conicals including the Hornady great plains 410 gr, which is a great bullet but is no longer made, The No Excuses bullets in different sizes, and many others. The 500 S&W bullets paper patched beat them all for accuracy in my gun. I have never used this bullet on an elk, but with that kind of foot pounds of energy I don't think they would bounce off.
Frontier, I have seen those Perdersoli Missouri River Hawken?s in magazines. I would love to shoot one of those rifles with my paper patched bullets. I have read they are a great rifle. Ron

 

[3blade]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-09 AT 02:37PM (MST)[p]Ron,

I have seen your posts all over the internet and came across one where you show how you wrap the paper patched bullet. You explained the process very well but can you elaborate on what the length of the paper patch should be? I understand the width but I'm not clear on the length? I assume its a certain distance based upon the circumference of the bullet like 2 or 3 x the circumference maybe?

I am assuming your making the 500 S&W bullet yourself, where did you get the mold? I also see where you size the bullet then wrap it and size it again so where do you get the S&W sizing dies?

I did a search to buy lead and didn't come up with anything so is there a place you buy lead?

Lots of questions I know but as a bowhunter I make all my own stuff, and knowing how I am, when I find the appropriate load for the .54 Trade Rifle I bought in a patched round ball I will make these two. Round ball molds are easy to come by but I will also experiment with conicals. If I cannot get acceptable accuracy either way a .50 Green mtn barrel will be headed to my door and more experimenting will be happening. One way or the other I'll end up with a tack diver at 100 to 125 yds or so.

 

[Idahoron]

#1- You are right. The length is based on two wraps of the paper on the bullet, and the diameter of the bullet. I make my own paper templates out of heavy cardboard.
#2- I am using the Lee C-501-440-RF mould. This mould casts a bullet that is 440 gr with Lyman #2 lead. With pure soft lead this mould will throw a bullet that is 460 gr. The sizing die I use is a Lee .501 diameter. I got the mould and sizer die from Midway.
#3- There is a lot of places to get lead. Some guys scroung lead and use what ever they find. I only use pure lead that is 5 to 7 BHN hardness. I have a Cabin tree tester thanks to getting screwed several times on lead. If I do buy lead locally I will not give a dime until I get to test it.
I get my pure lead from Rotometal on the web. They are a little more money but they have GREAT pure lead and they always are under 5 BHN. I add 500 gr of lead shot into 5 pounds of lead. This gives me my target of about 6 to 7BHN. The lead shot seems to help the bullets fill out better and make them a bit harder to keep them from slumping too much.
When I pour my bullets I target 460 gr and only keep bullets that are withing +-.3 grains of the target. After I have them all weighed, I sort by looks, and I only keep the very best.
Ron

 

[Sagebrush1]

If you want to shoot round balls with your trades rifle I would suggest getting a 1-70 twist barrel. this is what I did with mine At first I used Pyrodex RS and it shot ok, went with the 1-70 twist and goex FFG powder, By doing this my groups tightened up like I said earlier I can make the shots touch at 50 yards with a .535 round ball.

As I cast my own balls and weigh them out taking only the best looking and and keep the balls within +/- 1/2 grain of each other.

for patching material I use a felt wad (over the powder wad) and .018 pillow ticking patch. punch out my own wads also.
the felt wad helps in keeping the gases from escaping down the sides.

 

[3blade]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-09 AT 05:10PM (MST)[p]couple more questions. I think stainless steel is harder than the standard steel that Gr Mtn uses for barrels? If this is true it would make for a stiffer barrel that did not have as much flex. So which barrel do you think is more accurate? the stainless or standard? Or which barrel is stiffer?

I've been told by one guy this is why they aren't making as many stainless barrels anymore, its because they don't flex so they are not as accurate...maybe I have that backwards? Anybody have any ideas on that?

And then if the stiffness thing was true, a 50 cal barrel that was 1" across would be stiffer than one that is 15/16" across. Kind of like the bull barrels you find on target or varmint rifles. So then this should matter too shouldn't it?

Of course it probably depends upon the maker of the barrel and what rockwell strength they made it?

Maybe I'm thinking to much??

thanks

 

[Rem308]

I ave owned and shot several Knight Muzzleloders, arround 25 or so.About half of these rifles were Stainless and half were blue.I could never see a difference in accuracy.With there Green Montain barrels they all were good shooters.
I used to make a custom stocks for these rifles to sell,even tried glass bedding the action and barrel and could not tell where it improved the accuracy.A muzzleloader does not have the barrel whip that you get from center fire rifles.The rifles I am talking about were the MK85 and LK93. Great shooting rifles yet today.

 

[Frontier]

Barrels do vibrate, some more than others, less is better. When reloading modern ammunition or loading muzzleloaders to a lesser extent, is part of the reason for trying different loads. It's kind of like tuning a bow, or anything else, find the sweet spot as some say.