EXPO RIGGED

S

snowman22250

Active Member
Messages
324
Tell me something.
How is it, SFW employees draw a Ram tag Mr. Bair.
Ex Fish Cops, like Ted Gardner draw back to back quality archery bull tags.
other booth guys(sponsers) at the convention draw once in a lifetime tags????
Who is in charge of the "Software" that does this so called "random draw"??????

Any comments

Snowman
 
it does make me wonder what the odds are that somebody could some how draw a tag year after year . Makes me wonder .
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]Bob would you mind getting me some popcorn while your at it ill pay ya back with the money I saved not spending it on a ticket. lol

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Ohhhh yeah! Let the tag-pimping wars commence!!! I want to hear this answer. Great questions Snowman!
 
Those are good questions... At some point it does start to look suspicious.
 
Who cares if it's rigged. I'm just happy bobcat-on-wheels found the caplocks button so he isn't screaming anymore.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 07:33PM (MST)[p]can someone copy and paste the names from last year, and this year, lets pick it apart and identify everyone that drew a tag and majority have some kind of connection. seems to suspicious to me, I am going to get my popcorn now and watch the show.

Funny thing is before the results were out I told several co-workers that its rigged anyway, and I predicted that one san juan resident would draw a tag and that they would have had connections.

and I was right.....lol
 
I'm only gonna say one thing.
If my name was John Bair I'd be in Vegas right now,lol!
He's already mastered the Gambling in Utah.
 
Maybe someone hacked into their computer and planted a "virus"?

Computers are funny that way.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]the same guy drew the only dutton/pauns pronghorn tag this year and last year, and if u want a panguitch early rifle tag there no point in applying unless you have the last name Green. in the last two years a Green has got 3 out of 4 available tags. a family out of WA state sure has the draw gods on their side. coincedence?? luck??
 
I've been to tons of wildlife banquets/dinners/events. The drawings were always done outta a barrel, in public view. This isn't the case??????
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 08:51PM (MST)[p] Only in Utah... How about somebody ask for an audit??
Oh yeah there has never been one... Tags and cash... sounds like one hell of a deal to me!!! Where do I sign up?? Oh damn I forgot I have INTEGRITY!!!
 
could it possibly be as simply as the same guys buy buttloads of tickets every year and therefore have better odds and draw more often than those who spend $25 on tickets? If someone spends $500-$1,000 a year it may be probable that they draw more often.

Who is John Bair? Is he the guy that works for Christensen Arms?
 
You can't buy more tickets. You can pick and choose the hunts you put in for but everyone can only have 1 name in the hat and each hunt you put in for is $5 except this year some dall sheep hunts were $10 to apply.

John Bair is the SFW Chairman of the Board and former SFW President
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 09:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 09:19?PM (MST)

I sure hope it's not rigged, but why do these guys open themselves up for criticism? It seems like in any other contest I've ever heard of, employees and people involved with it aren't allowed to enter, just to make sure there isn't even any appearance of deception or fraud. I wonder why the expo doesn't follow suit. Just another in a long list of questions that these guys have to answer.

To quote Hawkeye from the other thread, in case you haven't seen it--

"I was reviewing some of the posts from last year and found this quote from John Bair in response to questions regarding his pronghorn tag: "Trust me if it was rigged I would be hunting sheep. I'm stoked to be hunting speed goats. Thanks to everyone that came out to the expo."
I certainly don't think SFW would rig the expo draw but that statement is pretty darn funny in hindsight. Here is the link:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...?az=show_thread&om=11534&forum=DCForumID5=yes "

Well, now he's hunting sheep. What does that mean?
 
I have never been to the expo, but I am curious now...

What is the drawing process and is it true you can only put your name in 1 time for each hunt? What are the chances of drawing difficult tags, say a sheep tag or premium elk tag?
 
John is a good guy and a guy people would generally pull for to draw tags like this but IMO, anyone in a position like that with MDF/SFW flat out shouldn't be in the draw. SFW manages the drawing with the DWR and to have the SFW chairman pull a coveted sheep tag or any tag potentially hurts the integrity of the drawing. Why do that?

Legit or not, I think you got it right. Usually people in that position are ineligible. It's like going to Vegas and watching the casino president walk down, pull the slot machine and hit millions of dollars.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-10 AT 09:29PM (MST)[p]Wow......just for the record i drew a late plateau tag 2 years ago. Kinda funny that I mentioned huntin sheep and then 2 years later i get a monster tag.
Lets see if it works again.
" If it was rigged I would get a henry's deer, san juan elk, bison tag, dirty devil desert sheep, and another antelope, maybe the san rafael this time."
I have nothin to do with the draw, or the expo other than the auctioneering and a few announcements. It was a great show this year. Better than expected. Hope you all have a good year. John Bair
 
10r,

You are a brave soul to poke your head around in here. Congrats on a tag and next year will you touch my money before I put in??
 
Hey Jon, good luck on your hunt and congrats.

Next year maybe we can have a special monstermuleys entry booth, maybe in a back room somewhere, and you could hook us all up? I'd even pay double. That would be great, and we'd all really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
 
Good luck John you dirty dog! That should be a great hunt! We pulled a deer tag this year. Our 3rd tag in 4 years.

I don't think the expo is rigged guys or we would have never drawn a tag! We fought this thing tooth and nail through the RAC process. Good luck to all those who drew! Make the best of it!
 
You boys have had some serious luck at the expo. My wife looks at the 400$ I put down every year and wonders where the luck comes in. I feel very fortunate to have a tag like the Rattlesnake. I never thought I'd get to hunt sheep in my home state. I'm still in shock. Good luck to everyone that drew a tag. I'm sure I have used a lifetime of luck on this one. Good luck with the deer hunt Chad.
 
I could be wrong and I probably am, but I was of the understanding that the same company that does the utah LE and General draw also does the expo.?
The reality of it is that you have like a 1 in 1000's chance of drawing any of these tags. Actual odds depend on how many people buy a chance for that particular hunt. Your odds of drawing a tag don't change because you drew a tag last year or even if you draw more than one tag in one year (ie. the guy who drew henrys deer and Pahvant late elk last year) It boils down to luck, everytime the computer picks a number.
As for not letting SFW guys be eligable, that is not very fair. Especially if an independent company is doing the drawing. Not only that, put yourself in their position. They are in SFW because they are passionate about hunting and want to make a differance, and now you are going to tell them that they can't have a chance at a great tag because of that passion? A lot of these guys deserve these tags more than lazy fat complainers like myself.....I say good for them. Good luck Blair.
 
John, buddy, ole' pal, we go way back.....I'd sure like a great tag next year. How about it....good buddy. LOL

Good for you John. Have fun with it.

If things are the same as they were originally setup, Ryan Foutz is the only person involved who isn't allowed to apply for tags. I don't know how it is anymore, but I don't believe based on John getting lucky a couple times that it is "rigged". HOWEVER, if John happens to pull those tags listed above over the next few years.....well.....???

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
These are the standard the rules of eligibility for most draws or contests. Apparently SFW plays by their own rules. Any one that believes that Sportsman for the Wealthy has the interest of the average hunter in their agenda probably still believes in the tooth fairy also. As wileywapity said "WAKE THE HELL UP FOLKS"

Eligibility: Open to legal residents of the 48 continental U.S. & D.C. who are 18 years of age and older as of date of entry. Employees of The XXXXX Company (?Sponsor?), XXXXXX Associates, Inc., XXX Inc., their respective parent companies, subsidiaries, affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agencies, any of their respective partners, prize suppliers (collectively ?Sweepstakes Entities?) and any of the members of their immediate family (defined as spouse, mother, father, in-laws, grandmother, grandfather, brother, sister, children and grandchildren) or same household of each are not eligible to participate or win. The Sweepstakes is void where prohibited or restricted by law, and is subject to all applicable federal, state and local laws.

I have a few questions concerning this draw.
#1. Does anyone know how this draw is processed?
#2. Is it a computerized draw or do they draw names from a barrel?
#3. Who conducts the draw?
#4. Have the actual draw odds ever been disclosed?
Nevada and Utah both used System Consultants to conduct their respective draws for big game hunts. I've seen this drawing in action and it is pretty impressive. I don't think a system like theirs could be rigged. But I question anything that SFW has a hand in.
Wes
 
YOU GUYS REALLY NEED TO GROW THE @#$% UP.
JOHN WORKS HIS A@@ DAY AFTER DAY, WHILE THE MAJORITY OF YOU GUYS JUST SIT AND WATCH.

CALL IT KARMA. GOOD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE.


jealousy is such a silly thing.

congrats John Boy.
 
Rigged? Maybe. Inexcusable lack of the appearance of integrity? Absolutely.

There are great organizations out there raising money for habitat that are open and above suspicion. If yu are giving up on SFW, don't give up on habitat.

SFW's stonewalling on odds and cash raised and cash spent has created the environment where even the pro-SFWers have to be scratching their heads over this year's Expo draw odds. Add in that one of the early vocal critics of the SFW landed a sweet tag last year (think his wife did).

You simply can not let your employees or vendors or suppliers or their families participate in anything that is a contest. To not have this control in place PLUS not hold the drawing publicly is very, very unusual for a contest that involves $100,000s raised using 100% public tags.

As I said weeks ago, good luck in the Expo draw. Maybe luck was not the correct word.

Too bad for Joe Sixpack hunter if this was not a 100% square deal.
 
So do some of you guys go home and kick your dog when you find out you did not win a raffle where your odds are less than one in a hundred??

For crissakes its like you expected to win. With raffles, lotteries, and tag applications strange things happen. Get over it.




***********************************

Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money."


"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything he doesn't own." - Unknown
 
So, if odds are 1 in 100 for a primo tag (not the turkey after all), then what are the odds of 2 years in a row? 1 in 10,000. Still feel lady luck is the only person reaching for the ping pong balls in the Expo hopper? Why should there be any room for question? Even churches have 2 folks count the cash. Just saying.
 
what are the odds of drawing a premium elk tag and a great deer tag in the same expo? a billion to one?

yet last year when a guy did just that, no one cried about that............

is it rigged when i don't draw an elk tag with 14 points and there are guys that have draw twice in that same time?

it is all luck, when it is your time to get lucky , i will be the first to buy ya a beer!

get over yourselves already.
 
If anyone wants to know how the expo draw works, read the list of folks that run the draw. They are listed before the results list at huntexpo.com. I'm sure that any one of them could tell you how it works. Thanks, John Bair
 
you want to see a rigged system just put your name in one of those barrel drawings. I have seen the BS over and over. the guys running them will always put their names in last. they will then put all of their tags in a ball in the middle somewhere. when they spin it the middle wont get mixed up. they then have someone reach in and usually the person goes to the middle on the ends. well guess who is statically going to draw. I wont put my name in one of those type anymore.


SFW would be wise to use a separate party to do the drawings for all I know this is how it is done. this would limit all the accusations.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
On February 16th 2010 the drawing for the 200 permits for the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo was conducted at the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources in Salt Lake City, Utah. Start time of the draw was 12:11pm and finished at 1:06pm on February 16th, 2010. Those in attendance and witnessed the drawing procedure included: Greg Evans, IT Supervisor-DWR ? Kirk Poulson, Database Analyst-DWR ? Kenneth Johnson, Business Analyst-DWR ? Steve Harward, Systems Analyst-DWR ? Lindy Varney, Account Tech-DWR ? Ryan Foutz, WHCE Drawing Coordinator ? Justin Lucast, Software Consultant ? Rob Gray, Graysky Technologies.

Are you calling the people identified in this list liars, cheats, or crooks? If not, what exactly you calling them? If you have the Snickers to call the drawing rigged, do you have the courage to say or infer these folks are guilty of fraud? I drew a tag last year and you damn well better be careful what kind of brush you paint the winners with. If you got proof, you better get it out here, if you don't.....................who's integrity is in question?

DC
 
Not sure I follow the roomful of cheats angle.

Who checked the software code? Having a room full of people staring at a PC is not the same thing as if they observed names being pulled from a hat.

Only takes one dishonest person to rig software and most of us would have no clue even if we inspected the program software. Anyone here ever had a virus get on their PC? Does having a virus on your PC make you dishonest or does it make the person who made the virus dishonest.

I assume most or all of the folks at the drawing did not have the skill to audit the software code line by line.
 
>On February 16th 2010 the drawing
>for the 200 permits for
>the Western Hunting & Conservation
>Expo was conducted at the
>Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
>in Salt Lake City, Utah.
>Start time of the draw
>was 12:11pm and finished at
>1:06pm on February 16th, 2010.
>Those in attendance and witnessed
>the drawing procedure included: Greg
>Evans, IT Supervisor-DWR ? Kirk
>Poulson, Database Analyst-DWR ? Kenneth
>Johnson, Business Analyst-DWR ? Steve
>Harward, Systems Analyst-DWR ? Lindy
>Varney, Account Tech-DWR ? Ryan
>Foutz, WHCE Drawing Coordinator ?
>Justin Lucast, Software Consultant ?
>Rob Gray, Graysky Technologies.
>
>Are you calling the people identified
>in this list liars, cheats,
>or crooks? If not,
>what exactly you calling them?
> If you have the
>Snickers to call the drawing
>rigged, do you have the
>courage to say or infer
>these folks are guilty of
>fraud? I drew a
>tag last year and you
>damn well better be careful
>what kind of brush you
>paint the winners with.
>If you got proof, you
>better get it out here,
>if you don't.....................who's integrity is
>in question?
>



+1
great post
 
>On February 16th 2010 the drawing
>for the 200 permits for
>the Western Hunting & Conservation
>Expo was conducted at the
>Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
>in Salt Lake City, Utah.
>Start time of the draw
>was 12:11pm and finished at
>1:06pm on February 16th, 2010.
>Those in attendance and witnessed
>the drawing procedure included: Greg
>Evans, IT Supervisor-DWR ? Kirk
>Poulson, Database Analyst-DWR ? Kenneth
>Johnson, Business Analyst-DWR ? Steve
>Harward, Systems Analyst-DWR ? Lindy
>Varney, Account Tech-DWR ? Ryan
>Foutz, WHCE Drawing Coordinator ?
>Justin Lucast, Software Consultant ?
>Rob Gray, Graysky Technologies.
>
>Are you calling the people identified
>in this list liars, cheats,
>or crooks? If not,
>what exactly you calling them?
> If you have the
>Snickers to call the drawing
>rigged, do you have the
>courage to say or infer
>these folks are guilty of
>fraud? I drew a
>tag last year and you
>damn well better be careful
>what kind of brush you
>paint the winners with.
>If you got proof, you
>better get it out here,
>if you don't.....................who's integrity is
>in question?
>
>DC


I for one did not call anyone who drew a tag in this drawing a cheat.

I am however just responding to your post. You forgot one thing. The division has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar once before and that is why the drawing is now held in Nevada.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Kinda funny.
I keep hearing: "They should put all the tickets in a Barrel"
Do you realize how big that Barrel would have to be? (I don't believe most people know?)
Well it's John Bairs turn to be in trouble,lol!
 
The people running it shouldn't be in the draw?????????. please try and make things better so I'm the only one who benefits from it. WTF That ME thing is what is killing this country and our way of life.
They do a lot of work to help wildlife and now you don't want them to be able to try and draw a tag. WHY

So lets put a spin on this The money you put in for a tag last year helped widlife so that means you shouldn't be able try and draw a tag for the next 3 years, Man now wouldn't that open up the draws for the first 3 years.
I don't believe it rigged, But you believe what you want to.




"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I believe it is usually standard practice that any body associated with the organization (employees, family, ext.) are not eligible for contests, or drawings.
 
I think it is standard practice that anybody associated with a organization ( employee?s, family, ext.) are not eligible for contests or drawings.
 
I propose one of two things to avoid this kind of talk in the future. More than likely everything is legit, but these steps would remove all doubt-

1. IF employees, sponsors, and family directly related to the show can apply to the drawing, THEN the drawing should be conducted by a registered third party (NOT the DWR), in a transparent manner.

2. Nobody associated with the show in any way should be able to apply.

The logical choice is #1. Everyone would be able to apply, and everyone would have faith in the results. SFW already had questions and controversy swirling around it. Accountability is foggy at best and people are bound to ask questions.

Just like this year, people in the top spots are going to get lucky sometimes. Why leave room for discussion?

It reminds me of the McDonalds Monopoly hoax a few years back. Friends of employees kept coming away with the big prizes, and the FBI had to come in and make it right. McDonalds didn't know about it, but it was the guys in between that were doing the sly stuff.

I'm not pointing fingers, merely suggesting a way to improve the drawing in the future, and give us all a little more faith in the system.
 
Even Mcdonald employees cant play Mcdonald games, funny isn't it ,cheatin to win a big mac. Nobody would cheat for a sheep tag. BH1
 
YOU GUYS THAT COMPLAIN ARE A BUNCH OF WHINING NINNIES!
RIGGING THAT DRAW WOULD BE LIKE SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT FOR SFW! THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DRAW LIKE ANYONE ELSE.
COME ON AND GROW UP!
 
I wouldn't take the pathetic whining serious. It happens every
year.

My family has drawn 2 tags in the four years. Yeah, I am
sure someone from the DWR was really worried about us
drawing.

No need to change the drawing procedure. I guarantee you
the same people, would be doing the same complaining, if
they were drawing from a "barrel".

2Lumpy said it best!!!!
 
oooohhhhhh,,,,,

NOW, Fish and Game is do the drawing....
NOW...Ted Gardner is a Retired Fish Cop, draws back to back bull tags......??????
Now it's even more rigged then I thought.....

Snowman
 
This is how it happens!!!! right from the hunt expo web site.



A confirmation letter will be sent to all hunt winner's from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources by March 1st. On February 16th 2010 the drawing for the 200 permits for the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo was conducted at the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources in Salt Lake City, Utah. Start time of the draw was 12:11pm and finished at 1:06pm on February 16th, 2010. Those in attendance and witnessed the drawing procedure included: Greg Evans, IT Supervisor-DWR ? Kirk Poulson, Database Analyst-DWR ? Kenneth Johnson, Business Analyst-DWR ? Steve Harward, Systems Analyst-DWR ? Lindy Varney, Account Tech-DWR ? Ryan Foutz, WHCE Drawing Coordinator ? Justin Lucast, Software Consultant ? Rob Gray, Graysky Technologies. If you are one of the winners, you will be sent a voucher which you must submit to the state of Utah Fish and Game along with the appropriate information and resident or non-resident license fee. A list of the permit fees can be found on the DWR website.
 
Im not sure how this drawing takes place. Can you just put in for one hunt for each animal? Would people who conduct the draw have an advantage since they do know the odds? For example if they knew which bull hunts have the best odds of being drawn they dump their tickets in that one.
 
Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to get to know John Bair from him comming into my restaurant and talking to him at banquets. I dont think there is a nicer guy than John Bair. Yes I think its crazy with the comments he made last year and how prophetic it became. But John is a GOOD GUY.

Good Luck on your hunt.

While luck is on your side, I have 4 deer points, What unit can/will I draw this year: Pauns Archery deer or should I try for something else Like Henry's Rifle Deer?

Landon
 
He is a great guy and he does deserve it. What's your point? Are you putting him in the same class as "those" guy?
Thats what I cant stand.
 
Good for you John!!

Congrats to everyone who drew tag..

And to all of you who think it was rigged, get a life...

You are all acting like a bunch of little girls, I cant believe grow adults will act like this. Someone has to draw the tags, I wish it was me. My little bro took 2 bison in 2 years so the draw must have been rigged. I won 5 guns in 3 years at banquets so that must have been rigged. Big freaking deal....

I will probably never draw a tag like that in my life, but I work hard and in a few years maybe I will buy a tag. If all you do in life is worry about stupid ##### like this then what a waste of a life.

My Dad works the SFW booth at the expo eery year and helps at the Banquets alot, I cant remember him ever winning anything. He never complains about it and he keeps putting in his money. I hope he draws a hunt or wins gun sometime, becouse the work he and many other people put in for the good of everyone is very unapreciated by most.

Thanks to all of you who donate their time in hopes to preserve the wildlife and my ability to hunt in the future.
 
Even the 1950's game show 'Twenty One' thinks this smells suspicious. The Expo probably has more rigging than a sailing ship.
 
Wow!
Just got word & it sounds like John Bair is going to return the Tag in hopes of the cry babies shutting their mouth's!
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]Hell on Wheels

It's a long story. Happened many years ago.
All in all, after hiring a attorney, and fighting for my rights(which you don't have when in the presents of Gardner) ALL charges were dropped.
Ted deserves pain and suffering, just like he unrightfully caused me.

Snowman
 
>Good for you John!!
>
>Congrats to everyone who drew tag..
>
>
>And to all of you who
>think it was rigged, get
>a life...
>
>You are all acting like a
>bunch of little girls, I
>cant believe grow adults will
>act like this. Someone
>has to draw the tags,
>I wish it was me.
> My little bro took
>2 bison in 2 years
>so the draw must have
>been rigged. I won
>5 guns in 3 years
>at banquets so that must
>have been rigged. Big freaking
>deal....
>
>I will probably never draw a
>tag like that in my
>life, but I work hard
>and in a few years
>maybe I will buy a
>tag. If all you
>do in life is worry
>about stupid ##### like this
>then what a waste of
>a life.
>
>My Dad works the SFW booth
>at the expo eery year
>and helps at the Banquets
>alot, I cant remember him
>ever winning anything. He
>never complains about it and
>he keeps putting in his
>money. I hope he
>draws a hunt or wins
>gun sometime, becouse the work
>he and many other people
>put in for the good
>of everyone is very unapreciated
>by most.
>
>Thanks to all of you who
>donate their time in hopes
>to preserve the wildlife and
>my ability to hunt in
>the future.

How interesting that you and your brother both have had great luck with tags and guns and have ties to a SFW member. If you look at statistics alone, your family is quite an anomaly. I wonder how a mathematician would respond to your luck.
 
LMAO!!! Jealousy and and envy will never die! Some people are just lucky!! good luck with the tag!!
 
Some are lucky and some aren't.Deal with it.Not everything in life is a conspiracy.Same people draw tags every year.Same people don't.Quit yer bawlin'!!!
 
Not bawling at all. Ive been lucky in state drawings, or at least I feel like it. If I thought it was a total rig job, I wouldnt already be wondering how much money Im gonna toss in next year. But even the most mathematically challenged people have enough evidence to at least wonder about the integrity of the show. Not enough to point fingers or make accusations, but definitely enough to raise an eyebrow.
 
Can anybody give me ONE reason the entire process could not be more public. Also if the entire SFW organization is on the up and up why not open the books. If they want all the accolades and credit show the public that it's all legitimate. Personally I think the Utah DWR and SFW have become way to chummy on all the policy decision that are being made for state (public) animals.
One more question while everybody is reading this stuff. Why can't Utah go to the preference point system instead of bonus points? Seems to be the fairest of all the systems I've seen.
 
You want the ONE reason it's not public? Easy. They don't want the public to know.

The expo tags generate millions of dollars. Where does the money go? To SFW and the MDF. What do they do with it then? Whatever they want. For all we know, 95% of our fees are going toward overhead and salaries, when we are lead to believe the money is "hitting the ground".

Sure, we hear about the wolf projects and injured soldiers and the good things they do. That's great. But, could it be more? A lot more? Most of the great non-profit organizations in this country will tell you exactly where their money goes, and will quickly open their accounting books to boast of the good they are doing.

It really is one of the great rackets of our time. Get tags out of the public pool (for free), raffle them to the public, and nobody asks any questions about where the money is going, and they don't have to tell anyone.

And, sadly, I'm as guilty as anyone. I've put in for those tags every year, as my love for hunting and the glimmer of hope for a shot at a tag overrides my distaste for the organization.

We owe it to ourselves and the wildlife to find out what it is exactly we are supporting and where the money is going. No more fog and mystery. Let's see accountability, transparency and honesty.
 
Just so you Guy's know?
I'll be putting in as a dual application with John Bair in next years Expo Draw,I should have a 50% chance,lol!
 
That's exactly what I'm thinking. If they could show me these things I would support them 100% of the time. I can think of only one reason to hide everything.
I too play the game trying to get a tag. What other choice is there? They have complete control of any process by which I can legally get a tag, what else am I supposed to do. I shouldn't have to spend tons of money on top of the fees I already pay in order to simply hunt. I still pay and go along with the crap because I want to hunt all I can. I don't expect a trophy tag every year. I'd be happy with one every 10 years in order to hunt a trophy animal.
 
"I'd be happy with one every 10 years in order to hunt a trophy animal."

Well so would the rest of us,but think about it!
If everybody was guaranteed a tropy tag every ten years the average size Bucks & Bulls would be way down from where they are now!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 05:29PM (MST)[p]lots of tuff talk here. internet superheros!

snowman . WOW putting john on that list takes BALLS you must be one bad a$$ s.o.b........

PAID employees of organizations are usually not allowed to play the game , correct.

last I checked the SFW was not a paying gig.

rigged. my hell it is 3rd party just like the state drawing, you guys have in your little heads that the SFW goes through them in closed room.
after the "faked draw" do they all start chanting and sacrificing virgins? killing goats and drinking their blood in some fantastic orgy that you made up?

where the hell does it stop for you little girls?
is the SFW behind the 9-11 attack?
did they kill Kenedy?

next you will force us to believe the SFW faked to moon landing!

FREEMASONS
STONE CUTTERS
NAZIS
SFW.............OH THE EVIL SFW..............RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!


My odds should go way up next year, because all of you crying little girls better not put in for any of the tags!
 
I'd be happy with one every 10 years too, point is I haven't drawn for over 20. You don't see anything wrong with that type of system. We are all supposed to sit back and take it while we are fed all this crap. I'm still waiting for only ONE reason not to open everything up to a public process. I doubt you can come up with One reason not to have it that way. Think real hard and spin away.
 
Oh I see things wrong with it!
But if you think every Tard in the state can hunt strictly trophies every 10 years you are very blind.
 
Still waiting rifle666. Anybody have a reason we can't see where every dollar of OUR money goes to fund public wildlife and hunting.
 
Lottery's posts odds of every prize. Why cant the SFW post odds on every tag????? It is a public lottery/draw.
 
I am not going to weigh in on weather the draw is rigged or not.

But I do agree that I would like to see more accountability. I see no reason a not for profit organization can't specify where it's donated funds are going to. I also see no reason why they couldn't change a few things with the draw and eliminate the suspicion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]rifle666

"last I checked the SFW was not a paying gig."

Sorry, but you're incorrect on that statement - they have paid positions, most non-profit orgs do, so it is a paying gig for some. Search the web for SFW/SFH tax returns (they are public domain and can be found) and you will see you're incorrect.

I don't think it was rigged, but personally just feel that people who have been paid in those types of positions with the organizations involved shouldn't be eligible. Just my personal opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 06:37PM (MST)[p]Anyone who thinks Don Peay and the upper tier of SFW aren't lining their pockets by whoring Utah's wildlife better pull their heads out of the sand!
 
See this is how it goes. You ask one reasonable question and wait and wait. If you even hint that you disagree with Don Peay and the boys you get nothing but the same crap, we are all jealous and whiny. We are all supposed to follow them like a bunch of sheep, opening our wallets to support whatever cause they have. I agree with some of the things they do, especially the new crusade of killing any wolf around, but they get way too much credit for every stinking thing that goes down.
Still waiting for an explanation Rifle666, call the boys and see what you need to type. I'm sure they have an argument lined up.
 
I've spent a lot of time with "Mr. Bair", and if there is anybody that deserves to win a "rigged drawing" it's him.
John DONATES more time, energy, and effort to the sport you whiners claim to love than most people put forth in their PAYING jobs. I'm glad to see him get it.

Chan
 
Well in Oregon a few years it was learned Fish and Wildlife employees had inside information to get there first choice hunt.At the spring meeting when tag numbers were to be decided ODF&W employees with few points would apply for hunts they knew where to be cancelled. If your first hunt was cancelled you would draw your second choice. Most the fuss came over a few muzzleloader elk tags, not premium tags.There was an investigation and such. The guys apoligized and that was just fine with me, I think a few people may have lost their jobs or gone else where, I know one is on here.

The investigation did say a disproportionate number of ODF&W empoyees drew sheep and antelope tags, third party draw, but nothing other than that..

Not trying to fuel a conspiracy, just what happened here.
 
rifle666 wrote..."YOU GUYS REALLY NEED TO GROW THE @#$% UP.
JOHN WORKS HIS A@@ DAY AFTER DAY, WHILE THE MAJORITY OF YOU GUYS JUST SIT AND WATCH.

CALL IT KARMA. GOOD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE."


So, are you saying the harder you work for SFW the luckier you are in the drawing?:)

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
Never_catch thanks for proving my point again. Name call and deflect the point of everybody's posts. I'm still waiting for a reason the process can't be more public. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't think every tag is hand picked by these guys, I do believe some of the tags are pushed to certain people though.
Also still wondering why Utah can't do a preference point system instead of bonus system. The rules of the game have changed mid game before. If it was like this the ones who have put in the most time and diligence would be rewarded. The same amount of hunters would put in to build up their chances.
 
Once I flipped a quarter 10 times, and it landed on heads 8 of the 10 times. Tell me that's random! After reading this post, I have concluded that it must have been an SFW/DWR quarter!

The Nard Dogg
 
I'm not going to say it is a rigged draw, unless proof is brought to light. But, from a PR standpoint this is a nightmare for SFW. A group already under the spotlight should be a bit wiser when it comes to image, as most often perception carries more weight than reality.

This, the elk proposal to reduce tags to the public, and now a request made by Mr. Peay to pull ANOTHER 100+ tags from the public pool to 'bribe' landowners, the smell bell is starting to ring louder by the minute.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]>I'm not going to say it
>is a rigged draw, unless
>proof is brought to light.
>But, from a PR standpoint
>this is a nightmare for
>SFW. A group already under
>the spotlight should be a
>bit wiser when it comes
>to image, as most often
>perception carries more weight than
>reality.
>
>This, the elk proposal to reduce
>tags to the public, and
>now a request made by
>Mr. Peay to pull ANOTHER
>100+ tags from the public
>pool to 'bribe' landowners, the
>smell bell is starting to
>ring louder by the minute.
>


What's the old saying about you can't un-ring a bell? Well, that bell rang a long, long time ago!
 
Which one of you fellers work for free?

Any government employees here, if so, please post your expenditures, you take my tax money home to your children, what exactly are you spending your government earnings on?

What's a government employee? Are you a contractor that has ever done work for the State or the Feds. Maybe your a Doctor that get Medicare reimbursements? Do government agencies ever buy products from your company or your employer? Are you an accountant that audits State entities, or non-profits? Are your savings in a Bank that guarantees your savings up to $250,000? Are you in or have you ever been in the military? Did you or your father, mother, or your children ever get a subsidized student loan? Has your company or your employer's company every borrowed money that was secured by the government. An SBA loan? Are you in agriculture and receive reduced government loans or reduced lease rights? Do your kids qualify for free or reduced school lunch?

Come on folks if you've ever earned or benefited from a dime of government money, directly or indirectly your taking my tax money. I want to see where you spend my tax money so we can all decide if your eating too well, or your travel is justified, is your vacation too long, is your health care too expensive, is your house too big, your pickup to new, if you spend a dime on a fishing or hunting trips. Do you think the way I do? Do I agree with your life style and the people you hang out with. Are any of your friends rich? Are your friends on welfare? Are we paying you too much? I'm thinking maybe we are paying you too much, why aren't you working two or three jobs? How come you have time to worry about what someone else is spending their government subsidized income on?

It's our tax money, you owe us full discloser and transparency. And you need to do it when ever I ask for it, every time I ask for it or whenever anyone else asks for it. We got a right to know!

How is that for spin? It's as good as yours, I'm saying.

DC
 
I'd say just as expected spin, spun right off the subject. That's still not a reason as to why the expo process, or any SFW function, isn't more transparent. Still waiting for ONE good reason.
Must be hiding something, prove me wrong.
 
2lumpy, your post is a perfect example of why more and more hunters are turning against SFW. Arrogance and excuses for lacking transparency will not gain you fans nor loyalty.

I always adhere to two rules when deciding if things pass the smell test: 1)Do the numbers add up 2)Follow the money trail.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]hmm interesting! well heres my luck i drew a moose tag for wasatch 08 with 1 pt! odds were pretty bad! the following year 2009 i drew a limited entry archery elk tag... granted it was arcehry and 8-9 pts will draw you this tag i drew it with 5. now this i thought to be extremly lucky to draw two tags in a row! i dont know a soul that has anything to do with any of the draws. but the odds of pulling this off are much better than pulling two expo tags like this...can it happen? sure! thats why even the people that drew a tag this year are going to put in again and again and again. is it likely no! sounds a bit fishy..yes! maybe a little look into this stuff would be wise.... but till then congrats john bair and sure hope your conscience is clear!it will make your hunt much better! if it was rigged may you have karma bite you in the a%%

?It takes a genius to whine appealingly.?
Mr.Whiny
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]If the expo is rigged then I'm going to have to start entering for more hunts... CUZ I WON!!! I have NO affiliation with any of these organizations and here I am- Gettinng ready to start scounting for an awsome hunt this fall!! I LOVE THE EXPO (And you would too if you won).
 

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