Fish lake Elk Early Rifle

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Sublime2471

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My wife drew the Fishlake Early Rifle tag this year. Anyone that hunted last year got information on the condition of the elk herd down there? It was a Hail Mary and she drew the tag. We drove down there last weekend and looked around and did some fishing. I’m sure we will be back a lot this summer. Thanks
 
I had that tag last year. in a nutshell you're going to have a good time and see bulls but don't set your sights on too high on quality. 5 day season makes it kind of tough.

I saw around 20 bulls, best one was around 320 probably. last day I took one at 735 yards a little less than that. best bull I know of taken was about 350 gross, average was about what I took. some guys ate their tag.

Seems like shot distances for me were either less than 100 yards or over 600 yards so chose your medicine. the terrain and cover where we found the elk doesn't lend itself to what I consider normal elk hunting. we found nothing much below Fish lake elevation, not sure if that's normal or not.

All the locals I talked to said it's not nearly what it used to be, I can't say because I'd never been there before. maybe you'll get lucky and find one of the good ones they say are still there, but if you don't it'll still be a great experience.
 
Yeah that’s kind of what I've been reading. I guess I’ll see what I can find up there. Is it true that the bulls go onto private with pressure?
 
Sublime2471 said:
Yeah that’s kind of what I've been reading. I guess I’ll see what I can find up there. Is it true that the bulls go onto private with pressure?
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Yes. A LARGE amount of the herd will rut on the CWMU's. Togwotee is correct with likely shot distances. 5 days will go quick if you're trying to figure the unit out. Before labor day get to know the unit and see the quality for the year. After labor day is when I'd focus on where the elk are at.

Enjoy the tag. Fishlake is a beautiful place to spend time in the outdoors. You may get a chance at a bigger bull, but if you have an opportunity at a 300-320 bull you may want to consider taking it.
 
I’m super stoked and am sure to have a good time. I just want to make sure that we know what to expect and can atleast get my wife a chance at a good bull.
 
And you don’t have to shoot at one at 6-800 yards. I was told the same thing: be ready to shoot out to 800 yards. And to everyone that said that, I replied I don’t shoot at an elk over 400. Passed on one at 600 and ended up making a 330 yd shot. There are guys/ gals that can consistently make those long shots, and power to them. But if your wife is not one of those ( as I am not) don’t feel like she has to stretch her comfort zone. The only thing worse than tag soup is a wounded bull you don’t recover.
 
I was able to chase bugles and get clear close shots at several bulls, the problem is you waste half the day in a 5 day season to see a raghorn. and there are areas so think you'd have to burn them out to see them.

If you don't have a solid long range set up I'd get one or borrow one and practice. you're going to find the majority of the elk are located and killed in a relatively small area. I wanted no part of that clown show until I wasted my time everywhere else failing to turn up any elk and returned. if you can't shoot the distance you're just a spectator. the crowds thinned out so it wasn't bad at the end of season.

That said tx is right, I saw a dipstic with too small of gun hit a bull I could have taken and last I heard they lost him. much better to chase bugles if you're sure she doesn't want involved in long range stuff.

PM me if you want to know what I can tell you. I don't know any secrets, but I can tell you a few things that may save you time.
 
A lot more people shoot at long range than are qualified to shoot at long range. “Stick to your guns” about letting a limit.
 
It’s a lot easier to do in September where you can locate them with bugles. After all, bowhunters kill some big ones! It’s true that 5 days goes fast. Which is why I would be there at least 3-4 days early and get some located. Know where to be opening morning and have 2nd and 3rd options lined out depending on pressure.
 
Your limit is really determined by how well you can shoot at 100 yards and the equipment you have. 1/2 MOA it 100 is still 1/2 MOA at 800 yards. that's a dead bull. this is with no wind of course, when it's blowing I back my range off considerably.

I wouldn't pressure anyone to take a shot they're not up to that would be unethical on everyone's part. but if you have a long range option and confidence in the ability to use it in your back pocket it might keep you from feeling like you showed up to a gun fight with a knife. I bet someone you know has a set up you could borrow, if I lived down there I'd loan you mine.
 
Sublime2471 said:
We have a limit of 350 to 400 yards depending on how much we get out to shoot. I’m hoping for much closer.
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I think that is great. I've always limited myself to that as well. And much closer is a possibility as my early bull was just over 200 yards and my brothers was 100 yards.

I haven't looked to see how many early tags they give now. Back when I hunted it there were around 70 tags given. You couldn't find a bull without anyone else already on it. I would think with less tags given during that season would allow you to find one and try to get closer. You'll find that with the terrain and trees, it's going to be hard to spot one and then see again when you get closer.

I think last year was just different all around. During the muzzy hunt there were areas, to my surprise, not holding elk numbers like years past. Seems like a lot of elk had made their way into the cedars.
 
Togwotee said:
Your limit is really determined by how well you can shoot at 100 yards and the equipment you have. 1/2 MOA it 100 is still 1/2 MOA at 800 yards. that's a dead bull. this is with no wind of course, when it's blowing I back my range off considerably.

I wouldn't pressure anyone to take a shot they're not up to that would be unethical on everyone's part. but if you have a long range option and confidence in the ability to use it in your back pocket it might keep you from feeling like you showed up to a gun fight with a knife. I bet someone you know has a set up you could borrow, if I lived down there I'd loan you mine.
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“Your limit is really determined by how well you can shoot at 100 yards and the equipment you have. 1/2 MOA it 100 is still 1/2 MOA at 800 yards.”

So very true and seen it done more than a few times. And……… numerous of those times have been with women. So your wife is as likely to be able to do it as any man is. Tog’s advice would be well considered, if you have access to a 800 yard set up. Just my opinion of course.
 
GLEDEASY said:
I think that is great. I've always limited myself to that as well. And much closer is a possibility as my early bull was just over 200 yards and my brothers was 100 yards.

I haven't looked to see how many early tags they give now. Back when I hunted it there were around 70 tags given. You couldn't find a bull without anyone else already on it. I would think with less tags given during that season would allow you to find one and try to get closer. You'll find that with the terrain and trees, it's going to be hard to spot one and then see again when you get closer.

I think last year was just different all around. During the muzzy hunt there were areas, to my surprise, not holding elk numbers like years past. Seems like a lot of elk had made their way into the cedars.
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Other than around the popular spots in the first part of the season hunter pressure was no issue. the issue was very few elk in the bulk of the unit and smaller bulls if you found any. the rut peaked in the muzzleloader season. the reason some areas didn't have as many elk is because there aren't as many elk the local rancher running the allotment told me.

It's a quality experience for sure, but if you don't go into it with the right equipment and mindset it'll be less of a quality experience for most guys.
 
Togwotee said:
I had that tag last year. in a nutshell you're going to have a good time and see bulls but don't set your sights on too high on quality. 5 day season makes it kind of tough.

I saw around 20 bulls, best one was around 320 probably. last day I took one at 735 yards a little less than that. best bull I know of taken was about 350 gross, average was about what I took. some guys ate their tag.

Seems like shot distances for me were either less than 100 yards or over 600 yards so chose your medicine. the terrain and cover where we found the elk doesn't lend itself to what I consider normal elk hunting. we found nothing much below Fish lake elevation, not sure if that's normal or not.

All the locals I talked to said it's not nearly what it used to be, I can't say because I'd never been there before. maybe you'll get lucky and find one of the good ones they say are still there, but if you don't it'll still be a great experience.
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Adding the distance of the shot is a big plus. Thanks. mtmuley
 
I respectfully disagree. Yes. A 1/2 MOA rifle shoots 4” groups at 800 yards. But just a one MOA flinch (not that hard to do) means 1” at 100 (no big deal) but 8” at 800. And that’s before you factor in walking at altitude and what that does to your breathing and heart rate, factoring in the wind, the angle of shot, and “bull fever”. Don't give into outside pressure to shoot at distances beyond her comfort zone. Could be the “dipstic” that wounded that bull saw posts like this, went out to the range a few times and did ok, so he tried a longer shot that didn’t go well. It takes a lot more than a 1/2 MOA rifle to make long range kills.

And to say you are going in with one hand tied behind your back unless you shoot 800 yards……. Again respectfully disagree.

Most of all, it doesn’t matter what internet warriors like me or anyone else says. To thy own self be true.
 
If you knew where most of the bulls are killed on that hunt you'd understand.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to shoot beyond their limitations, but I would encourage someone with this tag to expand their limitations. but if you can shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 it's still 1/2 MOA at any range so there's really no debate on that, the wind is the variable I have been trained on but still don't feel like I want to take that chance if it's a factor on long shots.

I've taken several long distance courses with top instructors where no bench rests are allowed. and I've seen guys that were totally clueless hit the gong at 1 mile on their 1st shot after instruction and with proper equipment. so I know most people can do an 800 yard shot if they want to learn how.

But I won't argue that nobody should take the shot if they're not up to it. tag soup is much better than a crippled animal .
 

Here are 3 guys who supposedly know what they are doing. But under hunting conditions were not close to 100%

Yep, on a clear day, at the range, with no wind, using sandbags, pretty much anyone can hit inconsistently at a distance. Under hunting conditions, IMO, not so much.

And I heard the same thing: SO many hunters. If you dont shoot when you first see a bull, someone else will. You need to stretch your comfort zone.

Hunted the Manti mid season. Set a hard limit at 400 on the first shot. Had a dope sheet out to 600 in case I needed a follow up shot. Passed at 600 on a nice bull. Shot my bull at 330 yds
My hunt started in Oct 7 and they were bugling and staying with their cows. Would do the same thing again if I ever got the chance

We are never going to agree on this. I stated my case and you have too. He can make up his own mind
 
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Had the archery tag last year. I was astounded with how many elk were on the CWMU and knew EXACTLY where the boundaries were. I got schooled for sure.
 
I took a 382 bull in Panguitch about 20 years ago. I passed on multiple bulls and never had a shot opportunity over 200 yards. that ain't Fish Lake. and we're talking about Fish Lake.

I'm done arguing about it too. I'm just saying if you possess the ability reach out there it's a huge asset on this hunt. believe me now or believe me later.
 
Tackdriver said:
Plenty of guys can shoot 1/2moa on the bench. In the field during a hunting situation, that turns into a 2moa pretty fast. Too many variables. 400 yds is even too far for most guys.
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You may be right, but with the equipment today almost anyone can learn to do it. I consider anything under 600 yards a chip shot, 1000 yards I can hit the gong 100% of the time. 1400 yards I hit 90% of the time . no wind , all prone from a bipod. I don't consider myself that talented but you guys are giving me a big head.

My personal limit is 800 yards, not because I can't hit farther but just because of bullet energy. but seeing what the bullet did at 735 yards makes me think I can move out to 900. I had a shot at a little bigger bull than I took the day before at 900, but I passed.

But I doubt I'll even shoot at 735 again, how and where I usually hunt it's just not necessary.
 
And that's why I wouldn't shoot at an animal that far. but I'm very confident I could hit the vitals at that range.

Anyone that's skeptical should take a good shooting school. it'll open your eyes to what's possible, and more importantly what 's not.
 
Don't forget, you will hopefully be hunting the rut... and while locating a bull by bugling is nice, if you really practice and learn how to call them in closer, or call so you can move in close without suspicion, it will be all that much sweeter.!!
 
Togwotee said:
And that's why I wouldn't shoot at an animal that far. but I'm very confident I could hit the vitals at that range.

Anyone that's skeptical should take a good shooting school. it'll open your eyes to what's possible, and more importantly what 's not.
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How far of a shot would you be able to confidently take if your scope was 9x or less?

What about the B & C principle of fair chase and an animals ability to sense and evade danger?

Not trying to derail the thread or start a debate YET but just your personal thoughts in a brief summary. Thanks
 
You can buy a scope with more than 9x magnification. and a rifle with a better trajectory than a 30-30. so I don't get your point.

B&C has no rules on maximum yardage. long range hunting gets more push back than road hunting does. I can only assume it's because anyone can road hunt but not everyone can hit at long range. jealousy.

I agree long range hunting is a different style of hunting, and I am not particularly fond of it. it is not and never will be my first choice, but it is and will be a tool in my kit. had I not had the ability to shoot at that range I would have eaten a tag I spent 24 years to draw. I spent the entire season up to the last day trying to hunt the way I preferred to and I did have multiple opportunities at dink bulls in your 30-30 range. Is it less sporting to take a 6 point at 735 than a dink at 45?

I'm not saying long range is for everyone. and if you're not equipped or don't wish to gain the skills I would not encourage you to try it. but don't knock someone just because they can do something you can't.
 
The roads are better now than they were a hundred years ago, the vehicles are better, the drivers are better, a trained driver is better yet, but would you expect people to still drive 40 miles an hour?

Should drivers, regardless of their skill and/or training, self restrict to 40 miles an hour?

When the people (government) decide what is an acceptable speed, they put a post on the side of the road with a sign on it. That sign tells the driver what maximum speed is allowed. If it’s 25, we drive no more than 25, if it’s 80, we drive no more than 80. We are ticketed if we are caught exceeding the posted sign limit. If there is no sign, what speed do drivers go……… they go at any speed they feel comfortable, some go ahead and test their skill by going faster than they feel comfortable.

Image that! Human nature. Imagine that…… people exploring previous limits, when they are allowed to.

There are currently no distance regulations regarding big game hunting…. shooting distances, for a myriad reasons.

One of the ways they try to regulate shooting distance is regulate your equipment. One obvious example is limiting your weapon to a shoot gun, or a muzzleloader (black powder, round ball, scope regulations), modern rifle scope magnification, etc. they could be regulated even more by limiting range finder capabilities, possibly even bullet/cartridge, powder, etc.

Tog’s point and I agree with him…. after hunting the unit for nearly 50 years is, you have a better chance to kill the elk you want at a longer distance because of the environment, both the natural and the human. He is saying increase the odds on the Fish Lake any weapon hunts with a long range shot. Seems like perfect common sense to me.

There is no regulation that tells you not to, therefore, if you choose to, you may kill a bull at any distance……… if you can. And just like it is at 50 yards, you may also wound and loose it.

Until something changes you will increase your odds on the Fish Lake if you can shoot accurately at long range……. what ever the hell long range means, at this time and place.
 
I am not knocking anyone for being able to do something that I can’t. In fact I admire someone for being able to hit a target at longer ranges. That is why I am asking you for your expertise in longer range shooting. You didn’t answer my question btw.

I will answer yours. Yes it is less sporting to shoot an animal at 735 instead of 45 whatever the size animal in my opinion. Here is why. Beyond around 400 or 500 yards the animal doesn’t have near the ability to detect and escape danger. As technology keeps improving and our advantages increase the big game does not have the ability to improve their hearing, eyesight, smell or expand their habitat or escape cover.

I sense Teddy Roosevelt stirring and getting ready to roll over in his grave.

BTW congratulations on your fish lake bull. You worked hard and did it legally.
 
Betterluckythangood said:
How far of a shot would you be able to confidently take if your scope was 9x or less?

What about the B & C principle of fair chase and an animals ability to sense and evade danger?

Not trying to derail the thread or start a debate YET but just your personal thoughts in a brief summary. Thanks
Click to expand...
This question isn’t directed at me but I’ll share my answer….. for what it’s worth.
 
I had a long diatribe all fat fingered in and just as I went to it to Save, I hit the “cut” button and erased it all…….. and I too lazy to redo it.

It a nut shell, it’s an impossible question to answer because no one knows what an average hunter can do. Lots of guys can hit a 10” gong at 400 yards, with open iron sights, other guys have trouble at 300 yards with a 9x scope and their range finder. Wouldn’t you agree?

As long range shooting is done by more people/hunters…….. more will be come skilled at it. Just like 40 mph was average once, now 75 is.

Tog’s recommendation, as I recall, was to find a setup and learn how to do it. It will improve the Mrs. odds at killing the bull she wants to kill.

His remarks were simple as that.

Now days, for many different reasons, killing a larger antlered bull on the Fish Lake is going to be difficult unless your lucky or you have the equipment and skill to shoot longer distances.

It’s not a matter of B&C, or Teddy R. The old timers used the best equipment they could get their hands on……. read their books if you don’t believe they did.

Now, if we the people, make different regulations, then we the people will be required to live by them. Until then, don’t fault people who drive 80…… if that’s the posted limit. If you find it distasteful, you drive 70 and let them do what the regulations allow……. or ask “the people”to change the rules.

Again……I see no fault at all in Tog’s suggestion/advice. In fact, I completely agree with him, on this issue.
 
If someone posses the skill to make long range shots, more power to them. I do think however, many people posses the capable weapon but lack the skill.
I also think over the past few years, that the animals are getting wise to the fact that they CAN be touched from a half mile away.
 
Shadow said:
If someone posses the skill to make long range shots, more power to them. I do think however, many people posses the capable weapon but lack the skill.
I also think over the past few years, that the animals are getting wise to the fact that they CAN be touched from a half mile away.
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As is the case when any advancement to anything more technical comes to market……. I think. I’m guessing in another generation a 800 yard shot will be as common as a 300 yarder today. I doubt Jeremiah Johnson was too happy to see Teddy R. the rich kid from New York, come to Wyoming to kill buffalo with his fancy new Sharps 45-90 rifle either…… but Teddy did it anyway. (Damn long range shooters.)

Listen guys, I don’t like what’s happening either but it’s the damn law, either do something about it, that Roosevelt didn’t do, or leave folks alone if they choose to.

I never have said it shouldn’t be addressed but don’t punch someone in the virtual face, if there is no law against it. And……. there are more ways than one to reduce the effects of long range shooting on big game populations.
 
Some Of Them Might!

But Alot Of them Are hit Before They Hear Or See Anything!

It's Past time To Start Yanking High End Optics Off Long Range Weapons!

Whoever Wants To BAWL!

Go Ahead & BAWL!

Somebody Get A Committee Rounded Up!

Since You F'ED With The SmokePolers Make It Even Across The Board!

Take Em Down To A Maximum Of A Fixed 4x Scope!

Like I Said!

Go Ahead & BAWL!

Shadow said:
If someone posses the skill to make long range shots, more power to them. I do think however, many people posses the capable weapon but lack the skill.
I also think over the past few years, that the animals are getting wise to the fact that they CAN be touched from a half mile away.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Some Of Them Might!

But Alot Of them Are hit Before They Hear Or See Anything!

It's Past time To Start Yanking High End Optics Off Long Range Weapons!

Whoever Wants To BAWL!

Go Ahead & BAWL!

Somebody Get A Committee Rounded Up!

Since You F'ED With The SmokePolers Make It Even Across The Board!

Take Em Down To A Maximum Of A Fixed 4x Scope!

Like I Said!

Go Ahead & BAWL!
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Precisely……. Could not agree more.,
 
An ethical long range hunter will not lose very many animals. mine was a 1 shot kill through the shoulder. I witnessed 2 other bulls taken earlier in season at the same spot taken with 2 shots each. one idiot emptied his Walmart rifle 3 times and never scared the bull. he wasn't a long range hunter, he was a frustrated idiot. so enough with the ethics crap.

if you know anything about this game you know many animals you see you'll never fire a shot at. at that range everything has to be right , can you get prone or find a suitable rest? is the animal going to give you a broadside shot and stop in the clear? I will not shoot if the wind is questionable. it. I have a Kestrel and I know how to use it, but I shoot enough to know when to say no and at what range.

I'll say it again, take a good long-range school. you don't just grab a parachute and jump out of a plane. there's no shame in admitting you aren't a self-trained Chris Kyle.
 
Betterluckythangood said:
I am not knocking anyone for being able to do something that I can’t. In fact I admire someone for being able to hit a target at longer ranges. That is why I am asking you for your expertise in longer range shooting. You didn’t answer my question btw.

I will answer yours. Yes it is less sporting to shoot an animal at 735 instead of 45 whatever the size animal in my opinion. Here is why. Beyond around 400 or 500 yards the animal doesn’t have near the ability to detect and escape danger. As technology keeps improving and our advantages increase the big game does not have the ability to improve their hearing, eyesight, smell or expand their habitat or escape cover.

I sense Teddy Roosevelt stirring and getting ready to roll over in his grave.

BTW congratulations on your fish lake bull. You worked hard and did it legally.
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I'll call BS on that. I had numerous chances on dinks bugling in the rut. one I probably could have killed with a spear. you have to be Danial Boone to do that? hunt this unit, see what quality and quantity of bulls are there, and where they are. 5 days just isn't enough time to be stupid. of course you can get lucky, but that's not me, I have to make my luck.
 
Togwotee said:
I'll call BS on that. I had numerous chances on dinks bugling in the rut. one I probably could have killed with a spear. you have to be Danial Boone to do that? hunt this unit, see what quality and quantity of bulls are there, and where they are. 5 days just isn't enough time to be stupid. of course you can get lucky, but that's not me, I have to make my luck.
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Maybe there was one big bull on the unit you couldn’t quite outwit or out hunt and didn’t bugle to let you know where he was?
 
Hmm, it’s getting harder to find a trophy on Fish lake? So I need to be ready to shoot out to 800 yards or someone else will shoot the bull right out from under me? Just a shot the dark here, but maybe long range shooter kills (I didn’t say recovered/ harvested) is why there are less trophy bulls within 400 yards?

You can talk all you want about the terrain that makes long range shots a “necessity” but bulls will be killed with a bow and muzzleloder every year. And they were killed before everyone had a 4x25 turret scope. Sometimes I think: “we have found the enemy, and he is us” rings true.

And I agree with 2Lumpy, if it’s legal, go for it IF YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH. But we have to realize that making it easier to kill at distance does increase kills, and in the long run, lowers tags available and/ or trophy potential

I say this as an observer, not a participant. I have already drawn my once in a lifetime elk hunt. Can’t apply again til I am 71. Not likely to ever get an elk tag again.

PS: I’m also glad they took scopes off muzzleloaders! Still looking forward to hunting deer some day with my muzzy
 
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I didn't say shooting long range was required. I said it's a hell of an advantage on this hunt more than most. of course, any idiot can get closer in the brush and if you're really lucky they might be worth shooting. and if you had weeks to wade through all the dinks that might just happen. you don't.
 
Togwotee said:
I consider anything under 600 yards a chip shot, 1000 yards I can hit the gong 100% of the time. 1400 yards I hit 90% of the time . no wind , all prone from a bipod.
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What size gong?

And wouldn't it be a wonderful world if we could take all of our shots at game from the prone, off of a bipod, in no wind, on a level firing line, and without our hearts pounding and gasping for air?

(FWIW, I used to compete at 600 and 1000 yards, with a sling, no bipod, so I know a bit about what's involved. 😉)
 
ColdBore said:
What size gong?

And wouldn't it be a wonderful world if we could take all of our shots at game from the prone, off of a bipod, in no wind, on a level firing line, and without our hearts pounding and gasping for air?

(FWIW, I used to compete at 600 and 1000 yards, with a sling, no bipod, so I know a bit about what's involved. 😉)
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Have you shot off a Bog Death Grip? Not much involved if the wind isn’t blowing. These devices have allowed a lot of folks to shoot more accurately than they would otherwise. They are significantly more stable in a setting position. Prone, even more so. Women, still more again. Nothing proven by science, just my personal observation over the last 5 or 6 years.
 
2x2 gong

It makes no difference what you couldn't do without proper equipment. I can do it. lots of people can do it .

Yes it is tougher under field conditions. I can do it lots of people can do it. if I don't think I can do it under the conditions on that shot I don't shoot. pretty simple.

On one of the classes I took every student hits a 4x4 plate at one mile at the end of the class . if their gun won't do it they use a school gun. obviously nobody is implying that's anything you'd try on an animal, but it proves what's possible by average people with the right equipment and training. don't judge other people by your inabilities.
 
Togwotee said:
2x2 gong

don't judge other people by your inabilities.
Click to expand...

A 24" gong? Hardly impressive. That's roughly 2.5 MOA.

You toss around " .5 MOA", and then shoot something five times that size? Put a 5" gong out there at 1000 yards, and see what your hit percentage is with your " .5 MOA" stuff.

And my "inabilities"?

As I said, I used to compete at 600 and 1000 yards, without a bipod or a scope. I know what I'm capable of. 😉
 
Watched and helped on a lot of elk hunts on the Fish Lake. The ability to reach out past 600 and make kill shots out to 800 makes its a completely different hunt. Not some hunters cup up tea not in some hunters ability or gear ability. But it is a factor on that unit for sure.

Good luck on your hunt hope you and the Mrs have an amazing hunt and make many fun memories!!!
 
"Togwotee said:
2x2 gong

don't judge other people by your inabilities."

9 shots at 1,000, and I suck

12-10-2023 1000 cci.jpg
 
2' is 24", and I said 1400 yards. a gong has to be round or it doesn't count ?

Did I say I hit the corners? what a bunch of clowns. I say it can be done and you argue it can't then claim you're Quigly.

I shoot prone off a bipod, generally I hit the center 1' but not always. I hit my bull last year 2" to the left of where I aimed at 735, if that's not good enough GFYS .
 
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