Frustrated with Utah General Season Deer

[BeDawg]

Is this just a rant, but I am seriously pessimistic about Utah General Season deer in the area I drew. Yes I am going to get out and give it my all as I have a tag for unit 18. I have hunted this unit in the past with rifles and bows and have previously seen many more older age class bucks while scouting. This year, I have looked over as many deer as I have in the past in different locations and was unable to see anything that got me excited. I talked to a friend who informed me that last year, they upped the number of days rifle hunter could hunt from 5 to 9. With the extra time, the deer got pounded; especially the older age class bucks. I do remember seeing an unusually amount of large rifle buck kills from last year on this unit. Is this just a rant or has any other people who scout pre-season experienced this same problem on their units as a perceived derivative of the lengthened rifle season?

 

[mtnrunner260]

At least the last two seasons have been 9 days but may have been 5 before that. Could be any number of reasons why you aren't seeing bigger bucks. Hopefully its just they are waiting until you have a weapon in hand to show themselves.

 

[hornkiller]

I am sure one of the 1000's of guys that didn't draw a tag would take yours. tThen you can piss and moan you didn't even draw!

 

[BeDawg]

I would rather be one if those thousands of guys who didn't draw if that meant a more quality hunt and older class bucks. But I want to turn the direction from this rant from me and ask other peoples opinions about deer age class. We're you seeing a higher age class when the rifle hunt was 5 days vs 9 days? On unit 18 that is definitely the case from what I have seen. What about the other units?

 

[mtnrunner260]

I haven't noticed that phenomenon where I hunt. I see more mature bucks harvested when we get snow during the season.
Do you know how many years your unit was a 5 day hunt? Does the DWR do a check station anywhere on it? If so maybe they would share the data for a couple years before, during the 5 day hunt and couple years after.

 

[Stonefly]

I tried to get ahold of my brother in law, he showed me some pics of 2 great bucks last sunday, he isnt hunting 18 this year he just likes to hike the ridges south of Hell Hole near faust canyon

 

[watts]

BeDawg I can feel your pain but it sure is not on unit 18.
I am a new guy to unit 18. I made the move from unit 17 in 2010.
For just the same reason that you are frustrated. And have never looked back. It took me two years to find the spot. I have had five scouting trips so far
and I have never seen as many heavy horned deep tined bucks as I have found this year. Nothing stud worthy but 25 to 27 wide some with a few extras. 160 to 175 and one that may go 180. I still have a few basins that I have not looked in as well. I just wished I would have found this unit years a go. Because at 52 my years on this unit will be short lived. Because that mountain range is no place for old men!!!

 

[BeDawg]

So-far Watts is the only response I have garnered that has seen it pre/post 5 day rifle hunting and can actually make a comparison. I want to hear what has happened to other units and not just this one since they switched it from a 5 day to a 9 day rifle hunt. Quality has definitely been decreased in all of my honey holes. I used to get excited about the bucks here and now feel they don't grow much older than 3.5 years. The biggest buck I have seen was the closest one I saw to the road.

 

[Deerlove]

The dwr insist that the amount of bucks killed are about the same on a 9 day vs 5 day hunt. I never agreed with that.

 

[rockroller]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-14 AT 07:17PM (MST)[p]I hunt this unit every year. I really haven't had time to scout much this year ,but if I recall I think we was down to 3 days on the rifle hunt for a couple years. It did get hammered last year and more tags this year.

 

[jray]

My dad will gladly take your tag. He hasn't drawn the last two years now.

I'll turn your rant into mine. To me it is total BS that people with zero points can draw a general tag over someone with points.

As far as the deer numbers and quality, it's just common sense. I don't care what the dwr says, if you lengthen the hunt back to 9 days from 5, more deer are going to get killed unless you cut tag numbers. I would venture to guess the majority of hunters are weekend warriors. So how does giving them two weekends to hunt instead of one keep harvest percentage the same? In my opinion the 5 day hunt was the best thing the dwr has ever done for our deer. Hopefully they will go back to the 5 day hunt sometime soon, or I believe numbers and quality will drop to where they were before the hunts were shortened.

 

[JLBird]

The problem with Unit 18 is that most the property on the south/east end is private and unless you know someone who knows someone, you won't be able to get in unless you cross private property. But then that is a problem in a lot of units.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-14 AT 03:27PM (MST)[p]>My dad will gladly take your
>tag. He hasn't drawn the
>last two years now.
>
>I'll turn your rant into mine.
>To me it is total
>BS that people with zero
>points can draw a general
>tag over someone with points.
>
>
>As far as the deer numbers
>and quality, it's just common
>sense. I don't care what
>the dwr says, if you
>lengthen the hunt back to
>9 days from 5, more
>deer are going to get
>killed unless you cut tag
>numbers. I would venture to
>guess the majority of hunters
>are weekend warriors. So how
>does giving them two weekends
>to hunt instead of one
>keep harvest percentage the same?
> In my opinion
>the 5 day hunt was
>the best thing the dwr
>has ever done for our
>deer. Hopefully they will go
>back to the 5 day
>hunt sometime soon, or I
>believe numbers and quality will
>drop to where they were
>before the hunts were shortened.
>

Hmmm, let me see of I have this straight. Since you don't believe the DWR numbers and you want to see more bigger antlered bucks, you want those weekend warriors who already hunt one less day then you hunt, to hunt THREE fewer days than you hunt. What a deal! How could we object?

Edited: Also, FWIW, Greg Sheehan told us in the day-long Mule Deer Committee meeting Thursday, at least a half dozen times (I didn't count) with emphasis the we no longer have general units, they are ALL limited entry. It's just a matter of the buck to doe ratio that they are managed for.

 

[jray]

Not sure where you're coming up with your math? I never said anything about wanting to see more big bucks. And no, I don't believe the dwr when they say the same amount of bucks get killed in a shortened hunt versus a full hunt. What was the purpose of shortening the hunts for a couple years if it doesn't cut harvest rates on a depleted herd? Let's see, if I go hunting 5 days instead of 9, am I going to have as many opportunities to kill a buck? Apparently I am. Or if I only can get out and hunt on weekends, one weekend is more productive than two, right? I guess I should just plan on hunting a couple days from now on because it's just as productive.

 

[travishunter3006]

You see JRAY..... what they are trying to explain to you is that some guys will hold off on shooting the first buck they see in hopes of getting out and hunting another day or the second weekend.

Many guys have 'hopes' of getting back out but end up not being able to and therefore their tags go unfilled. Now on a 5 day hunt, knowing full well they will only be able to hunt the one weekend, etc... they will shoot the first buck they see.


I don't think shortened seasons are the answer.

Utah needs to do an Antler point restriction. The number of shot bucks left to wither away and rot will be far less than the number of bucks not killed by having the restriction in place.

Wyoming does it and you can see a direct correlation from year to year as its in place. It would work if you did it for 3-5 years at a time and then lifted the restriction.

 

[jray]

I agree with nearly everything you're saying. In my opinion, once people make it to the last weekend on a 9 day hunt, they lower their standards (if they even had any) and shoot the first buck they see as if it was the first weekend on a shortened hunt. I can see a small percentage not making it back out the last weekend like you say, but those would mostly be the percentage of hunters that don't care if they go hunting anyway. Your fair weather hunters etc.

I wouldn't mind the antler restriction but it has it's downfalls also. All the big 2 points live and eventually the genetic majority are big 2s. Same goes for 3 points if it's a 4 point or better rule.

I just wish the dwr could put in place and enforce a 2 year old restriction. Let the yearlings at least make it to 2 years old. That would probably never work and a lot of guys don't care about size anyway, as long as they're killing, they're happy.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-14 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]>Not sure where you're coming up
>with your math? I never
>said anything about wanting to
>see more big bucks. And
>no, I don't believe the
>dwr when they say the
>same amount of bucks get
>killed in a shortened hunt
>versus a full hunt. What
>was the purpose of shortening
>the hunts for a couple
>years if it doesn't cut
>harvest rates on a depleted
>herd? Let's see, if I
>go hunting 5 days instead
>of 9, am I going
>to have as many opportunities
>to kill a buck? Apparently
>I am. Or if I
>only can get out and
>hunt on weekends, one weekend
>is more productive than two,
>right? I guess I should
>just plan on hunting a
>couple days from now on
>because it's just as productive.

Sorry, I'll back off on the big buck assumption, but that's usually the ulterior motive for pushing shortened seasons because killing more bucks, even if we were doing it on the longer seasons, does not biologically deplete the herd as long as the buck to doe ratio is above that needed for reproduction That's why the buck to doe ratios are set at the numbers they are. In fact, some are more than double the number needed for reproduction.

The numbers came from your statement that weekend warriors are the majority of hunters. A weekend consists of 2 days and on a 9 day hunt that's 2 weekends (4 days of hunting for them), but on a 5 day hunt, that's only 1 weekend (2 days of hunting for them). So they're already hunting 1 day less than a 5 day hunt.

As for the 5 day hunt success rate, if I only have a couple of days to hunt, then I hunt differently. I do more scouting. I'm less fussy about the size of the antlers and I'm more likely to take the first legal animal I see that's in range, especially on the second day. I stay out all day. I hunt where there are more deer. I don't hunt alone. I pack a lunch and water and I glass a lot more. Also we know that the vast majority of deer are taken on opening day, no matter how long the season is 'cause that's when they are most at ease and it gets harder as the season goes on. Additionally, a 5 day hunt puts the same number of people on the mountain in a shorter period of time and that keeps the deer moving more often. Lastly, many of the weekend warriors don't even go the second weekend even of they haven't taken a deer, especially if their tag is for an area that's further away. But whatever the reasons, statistically, the records going as far back as the 50's and 60's show that the success rates are pretty much the same for the 5 day hunts and the 9 day hunts. And the differences have more to do with the weather than the number of days.

Bottom line, 5 day hunts save very few bucks, if any and they certainly don't rescue the herds.

 

[jray]

Must just be a total coincidence then that I seen a huge jump in not only the number of bucks, but the quality of bucks after the shortened hunt was in place a couple years. Who knows?

 

[BeDawg]

The number of bucks has not changed. I am still seeing the same amount. Just far less quality. I used to find the older age class deer and now they are far and few between. I have seen 4 points but they haven't been very impressive. The longer rifle season has made the people more selective and it has been to the detriment of older class bucks. I don't know about you, but I would rather hunt a unit with even representation from all age classes of bucks and not just 2-3 year olds. I have a feeling I won't be seeing many pics of big bucks from this unit this year. Don't know if this is good for the overall health of the herd.

 

[Darkcloud]

Elk from above hit it on the head......I hunt an area that was a 5 day hunt for years, it was packed with hunters all 5 days. Now that it's a 9 day hunt, the second weekend feels like a limited entry. We pass 50-60 vehicles a day for the first weekend on one dirt road, the same dirt road the second weekend..............we pass 5-10. I know they dropped the tag numbers from what it was, but not that much.
Good luck to everyone this year, can't wait until October.

 

[Gator]

Local meat lockers will tell that a 9 day hunt and 5 day hunt they get about the same amount of deer brought in year. So I believe that it doesn't make much different, it just gives two weekends for the weekend only guys to be in the field.
If we don't keep the number of hunters up nation wide, in the long run we will just get voted out hunting period.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[mickeyelk]

I don't hunt rifle season anymore due to the nunber of hunters afield, but during the muzzy season the past 5 years I've seen a large decline in the number of 20-25 in 4X4's in the area I hunt. But one thing I can tell you is that the number of hunters has constantly gone down since then also. I have taken a number of bucks in the above dimensions (last year a 23 inch) but the number a bucks available is not there. In the past, the area I hunt, will hold 5-7 bucks that I will hunt extensively. Now not so good. The overall deer numbers have been going down also. I believe the drought has the biggest impact to date. I din;t draw this year so hunt hard and dig out all the trophys.

 

[DeerHunter1953]

Does anyone hunt unit 25 and know if it is the same situation there as here. They say that Fishlake area is on the upswing does that mean more 2 points of more deer I would be interested to see if it is that same in other units as well as Unit 18, and 25

 

[hossblur]

This post amuses me. I am pizzed I didn't draw, but I want to kill big deer, but we have to many guys killing deer, but I want to draw every year, but I want to kill big deer, but......,

Cats aren't particular, neither are cars and they kill more deer every year than anyone else. Perhaps we should never hunt deer again and they would magically rebound? NO, cats and cars would still kill them off. Simple math, more prey equals more predators.

Lastly, if you decide to not kill anything other than a 4x4 or a three year old deer, 5 days, 10 days, 3 months doesn't matter, you wait. Having 15 mature bucks in your buck to doe ratio is meaningless if you only have 5 does. WE DON"T HAVE ENOUGH DEER, all we do with buck to doe ratios is rearrange deck chairs on a sinking ship. We are 100,000 deer short of where we should be, and until those numbers rise, ratios are useless, season length is more useless. Short of deer living in the city, we should not kill one single doe, ANYWHERE. NO DOES, NO BUCKS, unless someone can show me the buck with a fawn in its belly.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"