Haystack deer deaths
- Thread starter headbones
- Start date
kickerbuck
Active Member
- Messages
- 595
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but did they die from bloat after eating the hay or just the overall winter conditions? Either way the deer mortality all over the west is super sad this year! I have had about 14 all winter by my house on hill in Oregon and they are getting pretty skinny now. It has warmed to 45° the past few days which has helped melt some of the 2 feet of snow that has been here since November 
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Not in a negative way, notdonhunting just mentioned conservation groups and F&G agencies could be setting aside winter feed resources, every year, that could be accumulated……… to be used during bad years years like this year.
It’s what livestock growers do……. the good ones……… have contingency resource for both droughts and bad winters.
Soj51hopeful
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,264
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but did they die from bloat after eating the hay or just the overall winter conditions? Either way the deer mortality all over the west is super sad this year! I have had about 14 all winter by my house on hill in Oregon and they are getting pretty skinny now. It has warmed to 45° the past few days which has helped melt some of the 2 feet of snow that has been here since November
Sometimes the deer undermine the bottom bales and the stack comes down on top of them. That’s what it looks like to me in the 2nd picture.
antlerradar
Active Member
- Messages
- 746
Often deer just don't have the gut bacteria to digest quality alfalfa hay. When deer switch from native feed to alfalfa hay in a abrupt manner there is going to be issues.
headbones
Active Member
- Messages
- 182
There are about 150 deer that have been pushed down to this barn, which is the only hay barn on the bench along a four mile stretch along hills. Snow was deep, melted for about a week but now covered again. Does and fawns desperate for something to eat. Yes, part of the stack was undermined and fell. The deer just push all day long on the netting picking away, and pushing under. Persistent critters, I don't blame them. Fish and game brought more netting and talked about feeding pellets. Hay may have saved some of them, others it killed. These deer
are used to eating in the fields so I think some guts are accustomed to this type of feed, mostly alfalfa and oats. Most of these does have no experience with this deep of snow and didn't know what to do, but come down and raid the barns! Many bodies up above the barn in brush.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,951
DWR and dedicated hunter are doing night shifts hazing deer/elk trying to limit both loss to ranchers and deer
kickerbuck
Active Member
- Messages
- 595
No way around it, it's all just a sad scenario! It's always hard to see dead Deer laying everywhere no matter if it's from Winter, Hwys, ect. Hopefully Spring will show up soon. Looks like a month away where I live.
SS!
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,666
I’m sorry you get offended so easily.
280rem
Member
- Messages
- 52
Well, the banquets are their primary fund raising source for mule deer conservation.
No banquets= no funding for projects.
Eighty-nine percent of incoming funds for the MDF go directly to mule deer and blacktail deer conservation projects.
Secondly, supplemental feeding of mule deer (successfully) is next to impossible. They cannot survive on hay like elk can.
Mule deer struggle accessing food sources when the snow is so deep that they cannot negotiate travel to a source.
Your suggestions?
The MDF removes wildlife hazardous fencing and installs wildlife friendly fencing to the tune of hundreds of miles.
They mitigate or removed noxious weeds on tens of thousands of acres.
They plant mule deer friendly forage and improve migration corridors.
The MDF has twelve biologists on staff that study migration corridors, biomass availability, and wildlife disease. You are more than welcome to apply and institute your miraculous herd saving measures.
Get involved, attend meetings, volunteer for projects.
Last edited:
SS!
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,666
89%. I’m throwing the BS flag!Well, the banquets are their primary fund raising source for mule deer conservation.
No banquets= no funding for projects.
Eighty-nine percent of incoming funds for the MDF go directly to mule deer and blacktail deer conservation projects.
Secondly, supplemental feeding of mule deer (successfully) is next to impossible. They cannot survive on hay like elk can.
Mule deer struggle accessing food sources when the snow is so deep that they cannot negotiate travel to a source.
Your suggestions?
The MDF removes wildlife hazardous fencing and installs wildlife friendly fencing to the tune of hundreds of miles.
They mitigate or removed noxious weeds on tens of thousands of acres.
They plant mule deer friendly forage and improve migration corridors.
The MDF has twelve biologists on staff that study migration corridors, biomass availability, and wildlife disease. You are more than welcome to apply and institute your miraculous herd saving measures.
Get involved, attend meetings, volunteer for projects.
280rem
Member
- Messages
- 52
Well, non-profits are required to make their annual budgets public. It is no secret. Just do a little research in lieu of throwing out undocumented accusations.
89% year in and year out. That is their budget structure.
Try going to a fund raiser or banquet and speaking with them... or call them.
Or you can PM me and I can send you a copy of the budget but it is obvious you have a biased opinion based on unfounded presumptions... meaning it would make no difference.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Well MDF does have an international, nation wild banquet fund raise effort, and I’ve not have checked into the records/data that you have but on just empirical data, I tend to support SS! on the 89% figure.Well, the banquets are their primary fund raising source for mule deer conservation.
No banquets= no funding for projects.
Eighty-nine percent of incoming funds for the MDF go directly to mule deer and blacktail deer conservation projects.
Secondly, supplemental feeding of mule deer (successfully) is next to impossible. They cannot survive on hay like elk can.
Mule deer struggle accessing food sources when the snow is so deep that they cannot negotiate travel to a source.
Your suggestions?
The MDF removes wildlife hazardous fencing and installs wildlife friendly fencing to the tune of hundreds of miles.
They mitigate or removed noxious weeds on tens of thousands of acres.
They plant mule deer friendly forage and improve migration corridors.
The MDF has twelve biologists on staff that study migration corridors, biomass availability, and wildlife disease. You are more than welcome to apply and institute your miraculous herd saving measures.
Get involved, attend meetings, volunteer for projects.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Well…….. ole Mother Natural always wins, in the end but by hell People do change the landscape for a while, ya got to admit that too.
SS!
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,666
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Huh…….. I have absolutely no questions nor problems with $341,000 for Executive compensation but who is that $1,751,288 in Other salaries and wages going to?
Not that I care nor do I find that unreasonable or inappropriate, but totally transparent? Okay, if the Gate Keeps have no problem with it, I don’t either.
Not that I care nor do I find that unreasonable or inappropriate, but totally transparent? Okay, if the Gate Keeps have no problem with it, I don’t either.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,951
SS!
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,666
That’s an assumption.
middlefork
Active Member
- Messages
- 742
Utah cattle ranchers losing calves to winter conditions
Many cattle ranchers have lost calves due to the deep snow and cold weather.
www.ksl.com
Deer can live fat and happy all winter on alfalfa I've lost many a ton to them and elk. the problem comes when they get in such poor condition before they get it, they can't digest it.
You can see in the picture they've been getting a little off the side but not a lot, and the bales can fall on them but in this case they haven't those are 3x3x8 bales and the stack is straight.
They simply died with their gut full, fawns die the worst.
You can see in the picture they've been getting a little off the side but not a lot, and the bales can fall on them but in this case they haven't those are 3x3x8 bales and the stack is straight.
They simply died with their gut full, fawns die the worst.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Don’t doubt your experience nor knowledge regarding starving deer dying with a belly full of alfalfa. I’d like you observations and opinion:
Could it be, as some have suggested, it’s not so much the abrupt change in diet that killed them but rather they are suddenly going from days, weeks, with little of anything to eat and regardless of whether it’s alfalfa or any other plant/corn/grain/or any dry feed, that they gorge themselves on……. will also kill them?
Example, if starving deer breaking into a corn silage pit and load up on corn silage, would that kill them just as likely as alfalfa. What about a granary of dry corn/oats/barley.
Is it really the alfalfa that kills them or is it their bodies health prior to filling their belly with a full load of otherwise nutritious food?
I’ve read where if people starve too long, they actually destroy their organs, and their other body functions deteriorate, to the degree they could very easily die, even after they have access to food.
As you’ve watched the deer on your place, have you ever see starving deer die with a belly full of something other than alfalfa?
Wiszard
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,306
I live in Cali and $176K is pretty good $$ depending on where you live. My guess is that in Utah, this is a REALLY good salary. Props to the CEO and COO for getting what they can. It's a non-profit so if donors don't like the salary structure, they won't donate. Simple. Someone has to run the non-profit, but no one likes seeing a HUGE salary to the CEO. For example, check out what the Red Cross CEO brings in.
SS!
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,666
Honestly I think the CEO is underpaid. FFS they just fleeced us out of 65 million of our taxpayers dollars
Lumpy, Basically yes to most everything you said.
Like all ruminants deer need time to adjust to a new diet, and normally they do. but when you go from eating nothing to gorging on something like alfalfa their rumens can't adapt that fast and even if they did the hemorrhagic ulcers from the impaction will kill them.
I've fought with the game commission on this for years. if you start feeding before they're dying they'll adjust and do just fine. but typically by the time feeding starts it's too late and they die so they claim that's proof it doesn't work. they know more than I do they're just looking for an excuse not to spend any money.
Yes it's not just alfalfa they can die on, that's just usually what they get. I've seen lots of animals starve in the non ag areas but they never do down here around the ranches. even in the worst years they steal enough to survive , and I'm okay with it.
Like all ruminants deer need time to adjust to a new diet, and normally they do. but when you go from eating nothing to gorging on something like alfalfa their rumens can't adapt that fast and even if they did the hemorrhagic ulcers from the impaction will kill them.
I've fought with the game commission on this for years. if you start feeding before they're dying they'll adjust and do just fine. but typically by the time feeding starts it's too late and they die so they claim that's proof it doesn't work. they know more than I do they're just looking for an excuse not to spend any money.
Yes it's not just alfalfa they can die on, that's just usually what they get. I've seen lots of animals starve in the non ag areas but they never do down here around the ranches. even in the worst years they steal enough to survive , and I'm okay with it.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
I don’t believe MDF has a requirement that their CEO lives in Utah. The last one did but not all previous ones have. Not sure where the current one sleeps at night.
These orgs, that are nation wide programs, have to pay nation wide salaries if they expect to hire the best folks. There’s a ton of expectations put on these CEO types. If he’s puttin $16,000,000 in the coffers, he’s earning his pay, imo
These orgs, that are nation wide programs, have to pay nation wide salaries if they expect to hire the best folks. There’s a ton of expectations put on these CEO types. If he’s puttin $16,000,000 in the coffers, he’s earning his pay, imo
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Thanks Tog, and I agree with absolutely every point you made. These agencies are so damn good at telling half truths to justify their behaviors. They had it so good for so many years, back in 40/50/60’s and got such little pressure from hunters as the mule population slowly spiraled down during the 70/80/90 through 2010, that the lastest generation of big game biologists, who now….. are trying to deal with what is no longer a disputable overwhelming mule deer decline,, and who have been educated with half truths, not by their college professors but by their bureaucratic supervisors, for over 40 years, don’t know what to do. And…… they don’t know what to do because far too much of what they believe is only half true.
I don’t believe they know what’s fact and what’s half fact and historic bull sh!t. And that’s why they can’t figure out what to do, because what they believe isn’t true.
Per feeding…… early winter feed conditioning has some how got to become a normal mule deer management procedure, in every northern western State are we are going to loose a n entire viable hunting species.
Man, it pisses me off because it’s so damn unnecessary.
Last edited:
Wiszard
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,306
I suppose any CEO of a non-profit is worth what they can bring into the company....they are all lobbyists when you break it all down. The question would be....what percentage of the profits SHOULD the CEO earn. Non-profit=capitalism no matter how you slice it and regardless if you help 1 or a million needy people.
dillonhoyt
Active Member
- Messages
- 100
It's not over yet...
I’m going to have to tell all the deer I see in alfalfa fields all year that they are starving.
As stated above it’s the abrupt change ( even worse when already starving) and perhaps mule deer are more sensitive to an abrupt change, but all ruminants and horses can have problems with rapid changes in diet. Take some cattle from a southern utah desert rangeland and put them on alfalfa and grain overnight and let me know how that works out.
Mule deer shift their diet preferences throughout the year based on availability and quality. During “normal” years this happens gradually and there are no problems. And I guarantee you if there are alfalfa fields available there will be mule deer getting fat off of them.
Hawkeye
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,933
…. Let’s hope so because the DWR and WB rarely choose to address the difficult issues.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
I don’t know how to respond to that…… but I am impressed with your progress. I’m beginning to believe you may still have possibilities………. Let’s hope so because the DWR and WB rarely choose to address the difficult issues.
deadibob
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,896
Didn't kick his shed into the ditch but they did kick sand and gravel into his Va JJ
Only kidding, somebody had to say it so I figured what the hell
notdonhunting
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,712
After reading all these posts of heavy mortality lost of deer this winter has got me wondering.
What kind of affect will this have on Chronic Wasting, Blue Tong and any other of these diseases that has had pretty big impacts on the deer and elk?
Will this slow the spread, or will this increase the mortality because of the weakened state they have became?
I would like to hear some opinions.
Facts would be welcomed too but this is Monster Muleys so really who listens to facts.
What kind of affect will this have on Chronic Wasting, Blue Tong and any other of these diseases that has had pretty big impacts on the deer and elk?
Will this slow the spread, or will this increase the mortality because of the weakened state they have became?
I would like to hear some opinions.
Facts would be welcomed too but this is Monster Muleys so really who listens to facts.
Short term it could increase the problem due to the close proximity of all the animals but long term starting after this summer it would probably drop off significantly due to numbers dropping already to low numbers.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
I understand proximity issues, proximity is and always has been normal for both animals and humans. Having said that, human crowd together year round. Until Covid showed up, in the free world, humans have gathered in large groups daily, during sickness and health. In recent decades at schools, athletic events, in businesses offices, on trains, planes and buses, etc. Huge crowds, ever where, everyday.
So do animals, for sure mule deer and elk. Elk for example live nose to butt, in the hundreds, all over the west, from last fall, to early summer. Even in midsummer, elk still live in smaller groups, with their new calves. Mule deer, granted not as much as elk, but still, from early November until March/April, naturally group up, in large numbers (where populations still exist). In our day and age they pour into alfalfa fields, next to large groups of cattle, and sheep, even in some places next to large feed lots. Bad winter or mild winter. Deer break up in the spring, when they begin migrating and following the grass feed to higher elevations, but, from mid November through mid March, bad winter or not mule deer are bunched up together, whether we put out feed for them or not..
Anyone that has spent anytime out at all during the winter, during the early more or late afternoon, where significant populations of elk and mule deer live, knows how large groups of these animals live within an arms length or closer of each other…… for months every year.
Nobody in the wildlife bureaucracy seems the least bit concerned about these animals natural herding characteristics during normal winters. Then, when…… we have a brutal heavy snow winter and they start starving to death or are trending toward starvation/death. Then, and only then, do we hear the “can’t feed them because feeding locations will draw them together and it creates too high a risk of disease transmission.
I used to believe that………. I don’t buy it anymore, I believe it’s another wildlife bureaucracy convenience myth. I think it’s a carry over from a time 50-60 years ago, when there were so many mule deer, loosing a year or even two years, back to back, having all the fawns and a bunch of older animals die off…….. there were so many deer and so few hunters, nobody even noticed the loss, nor did they care. If some crazy expressed a concern, they just said, “nothing we can do….., winter feeding brings them all together and we risk proximity disease transmission.
The current generations of bureaucracy biologists have been indoctrinated and just repeat the misinformation, like the previous biologists have.
Could pneumonia or worse…… sweep through a group of mule deer that are being fed, …..certainly…… but so too could it sweep through a nature herd of wintering mule deer.
How hard would it be to spread mule deer pellets or alfalfa across a half mile, to keep them spread out, in heavy snow pack or a normal year. Not so hard!
But, you can never, ever……….
Bad winters like thismake it much more worse for animals to herd together especially deer from different areas.
Bucks especially mature bucks do not like to be around does but when it gets bad there all together but also deer herds get mixed together and that causes other problems like you're talking about to spread across several different herds.
I see a lot more elk mengaling with deer this year in the same areas when they normally do not like to be so close together for long periods of time.
As for spreading more alfalfa or pellets I see you're point but unless they do it way sooner like in November then it's really just a waste in most cases.
From what I've seen this year the feeding was just a feel good thing but was a little way to late for both Deer and Elk.
I don't really know what the true answer would be other then starting feeding much earlier in areas we want the animals to stay at and see how the winter progression goes.
If it gets worse then keep feeding but if it looks like it's going to be easy then slow the feeding but if it's going to be bad up the feeding.
The reason for earlier feeding would be to get the deer accustom to the pellets and alfalfa so they can process it into energy as muledeer have a extremely hard time switching foods.
This winter feeding did not happen until deer and elk where slready past the point of no return not to say it did not help some but it did not help the majority of animals!!
Bucks especially mature bucks do not like to be around does but when it gets bad there all together but also deer herds get mixed together and that causes other problems like you're talking about to spread across several different herds.
I see a lot more elk mengaling with deer this year in the same areas when they normally do not like to be so close together for long periods of time.
As for spreading more alfalfa or pellets I see you're point but unless they do it way sooner like in November then it's really just a waste in most cases.
From what I've seen this year the feeding was just a feel good thing but was a little way to late for both Deer and Elk.
I don't really know what the true answer would be other then starting feeding much earlier in areas we want the animals to stay at and see how the winter progression goes.
If it gets worse then keep feeding but if it looks like it's going to be easy then slow the feeding but if it's going to be bad up the feeding.
The reason for earlier feeding would be to get the deer accustom to the pellets and alfalfa so they can process it into energy as muledeer have a extremely hard time switching foods.
This winter feeding did not happen until deer and elk where slready past the point of no return not to say it did not help some but it did not help the majority of animals!!
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,645
Excellent response!
Early feeding, backing off if winter stays mild. Tog had the same suggestion and it’s a great one.
Expense? Yes?
Worth it, absolutely until herd populations are once again large enough to tolerate a year or two, back to back winter loss, with out a rapid recover.
How to cover the added expense? Raise the price of deer tags…. appropriately?
Not publicly acceptable? Tough ..it.
Do you want to keep a viable herd of mule deer or dont you, if you don’t, golf is nice when it cools off a little in the fall! So is watching leaf change color and birds migrate, if you find golf too uppity.
It’s not that complicated, if you give a sh!t.
Vanilla
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
Isn't this why we hand out multi-millions of dollars each year to "conservation" organizations...to do just this thing? We give them extremely valuable permits to auction and even allow two of them to take 200 tags and bring in tens of thousands of people to apply for them at $5 a pop for "conservation" purposes. This seems like a worthy way to spend that money provided to them on the welfare teet, don't you?
Deer will just die in the winter when they get into hay!!
Alfalfa is just as bad as
celery lettuce and about anything else you could think of feeding a deer even corn.
Muledeer are not grazers like elk and there digestive system is really complex they are browsers and eat sticks and stems mostly but winters like this and the numbers of elk on the winter range in most areas have made it hard for a muledeer to make it.
Elk unlike muledeer can change from grazing to browsing with very little problems but when they switch to browsing they eat everything from the dirt to 9 feet up and the deer are left with nothing..
So the truthful answer is start the deer on pellet feed sooner and feed the elk in a different area so there not in competition for food.
Most if not all biologists know that if you infact start feeding muledeer before there's a emergency that they can infact do extremely good on pellets but if you wait until that emergency happens or until people start yelling at them it's almost useless! That's how complicated it is!!
So when you hear that the deer pellets are not going to save deer that's not the whole story!! It would save them every time if it was implemented at the right time!!
Expensive Hell yes but I know of one deer tag that sold for $500000 ya that money might stay on that island but there's plenty of conservation tags selling for 40k 50k and even 60k let alone the cheap
20k deer tags.
They know what would have saved the big game herds in northern Utah!!
Hell every year Deseret Land and Livestock Feeds a lot of elk on there dime and hopefully it saves quite a few this year as rumors have it there feeding 2250 elk right now!!
Alfalfa is just as bad as
celery lettuce and about anything else you could think of feeding a deer even corn.Muledeer are not grazers like elk and there digestive system is really complex they are browsers and eat sticks and stems mostly but winters like this and the numbers of elk on the winter range in most areas have made it hard for a muledeer to make it.
Elk unlike muledeer can change from grazing to browsing with very little problems but when they switch to browsing they eat everything from the dirt to 9 feet up and the deer are left with nothing..
So the truthful answer is start the deer on pellet feed sooner and feed the elk in a different area so there not in competition for food.
Most if not all biologists know that if you infact start feeding muledeer before there's a emergency that they can infact do extremely good on pellets but if you wait until that emergency happens or until people start yelling at them it's almost useless! That's how complicated it is!!
So when you hear that the deer pellets are not going to save deer that's not the whole story!! It would save them every time if it was implemented at the right time!!
Expensive Hell yes but I know of one deer tag that sold for $500000 ya that money might stay on that island but there's plenty of conservation tags selling for 40k 50k and even 60k let alone the cheap
20k deer tags.They know what would have saved the big game herds in northern Utah!!
Hell every year Deseret Land and Livestock Feeds a lot of elk on there dime and hopefully it saves quite a few this year as rumors have it there feeding 2250 elk right now!!
