Here are the 2023 proposed permit numbers.

JakeH

JakeH

Long Time Member
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30Hart said:
Only 1 mountain goat permit for Willard, what happened to the herd?
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Dude it's a mystery. I think the 2015ish population was probably too many goats for the area but when I volunteered for the RMGA survey that year there were 342 goats counted. Current counts are in the 30s.
There should either be 300 goats somewhere else or 300 deadheads on the mtn. But I've never heard of anything close to those numbers.
Aliens?
 
mtnrunner260 said:
Dude it's a mystery. I think the 2015ish population was probably too many goats for the area but when I volunteered for the RMGA survey that year there were 342 goats counted. Current counts are in the 30s.
There should either be 300 goats somewhere else or 300 deadheads on the mtn. But I've never heard of anything close to those numbers.
Aliens?
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Ya they took.a ton off there too transplant elsewhere...what a waste of a really good area.
 
What a joke!! 20 plus bulls died in northern/ north eastern Utah . In other post from fstop And no tags cut! Still unlimited for second any bull tags. Wow! Wait until may when everyone goes shed huntin. We will see how many people find winter kill.
They added like 300 limited elk tags.
Deer is another story.
 
elknr said:
What a joke!! 20 plus bulls died in northern/ north eastern Utah . In other post from fstop And no tags cut! Still unlimited for second any bull tags. Wow! Wait until may when everyone goes shed huntin. We will see how many people find winter kill.
They added like 300 limited elk tags.
Deer is another story.
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Like Middlefork stated, those are all CWMU bulls. I know of a few others found dead in NE Utah, but not near as many as found on the Henefer WMA.
 
Not saying there won't be. But specifically any bull units in the north/northeast are mostly effected by private property. Those areas that are not will be about the same piss poor hunting that they generally are.
 
Togwotee said:
Sucks to be a NR with 25 points. WAY too many hunts with only 1 tag I think I'm hosed.
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I see a ton of hunts with more that 1 nonresident license. I guess if you ate stuck on a early season hunt there are not as many but a ton of mid, and late season hunts with 2 or 3 tags.

I just counted and there are 54 different hunts with at least 2 non residents tags.
 
You're Too Young to Know BEAVIS!

But Opening Day On Strawberry used to Be Like A National F'N Holiday!

I Do Not Miss It!

One Of The Best Things They Ever Did!

However!

The Fishing Ain't Nothing Like It Used To Be!



berrysblaster said:
Pretty sure we should just go unlimited for a year since everything is already dead anyways.
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Yes there are that many tags, but not many I waited 26 years for.

It is what it is but I hoped it would make it easier rather than harder. now the early season guys that were knocking me out will apply for mid season hunts because the early ones are gone and the quality goes down as I wait my turn.

Knowing what I know now I would have burnt points in a lot of states years ago rather than chase the great white whale.
 
Deerlove said:
Dead is dead there will be lots of casualties in northern Utah gen areas as well.
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You're correct.

But there are a lot of elk that are out there that will live the sad thing is you still won't see elk on you're general elk hunt and it's not because they all died this winter it will be because 2 weeks before the season they all move on to private land..

Sadly most are general elk hunts border lots of private and over the years the elk have learned to move onto the private to get away from hunters.

The elk we are seeing on Henifer/Echo dieing are mostly Desert and surrounding cwmu's Bulls although many summer in the Henifer/Echo WMA they move off about 2 weeks before the general rifle hunt as seen with radio collared elk.

It's been a crazy winter where a area gets tons of snow and 40 miles away there was no snow but sadly this winter was not just a lot of snow but much colder for most areas up north. Feel lucky that there was a lot of breaks where the north slopes melted off but sadly in some areas there was not enough feed to keep animals alive.
 
200,000 plus deer tags was too many, so we cut them.

125,000 deer tags was too many, so we cut them.

100,000 deer tags was too many, so we cut them.

90,000 deer tags was too many, so we cut them.

Now we’re just over 70,000 and people are STILL asking for them to be cut…because that “management” practice has not worked at all for the last 40 years, but it’s bound to work this time! Bless some of your hearts…

I would strongly encourage anyone that has an opinion on the deer tags to actually watch the 30+ minute description of why they came to those numbers and the plans to continue monitoring the situation as well. I know it’s a lot to expect people to actually educate themselves before spouting off, but this one time it might be worth it.
 
Look at the trends.


Screenshot_2023-04-04-22-45-34-99_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
 
30Hart said:
Ya they took.a ton off there too transplant elsewhere...what a waste of a really good area.
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From my view it doesn't seem to be a priority for the state. Hope I'm wrong and efforts are made to bring goats back.
My guesses are disease or loss of quality habitat causes the decline but hard to tell.
 
Togwotee said:
Yes there are that many tags, but not many I waited 26 years for.

It is what it is but I hoped it would make it easier rather than harder. now the early season guys that were knocking me out will apply for mid season hunts because the early ones are gone and the quality goes down as I wait my turn.

Knowing what I know now I would have burnt points in a lot of states years ago rather than chase the great white whale.
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You're going to have to switch to archery or a mid season rifle hunt. With 25 points, you'll likely die before any guarantee of an early season rifle permit in one of the top 5-10 units. I'm in the same boat and thought I'd do a great archery hunt this year with 25 points, and then talked another guy has 2 more points with me who's got the same idea. At 25 points, and hoping for early rifle in a top unit you're not putting odds in your favor. There are going to be high point 25-27 point hunters throwing in for archery this year, for a lot of reasons.
 
SPAZ said:
You're going to have to switch to archery or a mid season rifle hunt. With 25 points, you'll likely die before any guarantee of an early season rifle permit in one of the top 5-10 units. I'm in the same boat and thought I'd do a great archery hunt this year with 25 points, and then talked another guy has 2 more points with me who's got the same idea. At 25 points, and hoping for early rifle in a top unit you're not putting odds in your favor. There are going to be high point 25-27 point hunters throwing in for archery this year, for a lot of reasons.
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I kind of agree with you, if I was chasing an early bull any weapon hunt. I think I'd take the 13-day mid-season over the early 5 day hunt. I also think you could have as much rut activity in the mid-season as the early archery. I'm basing, that off the rut in Idaho. With all the moister this year the elk will probably be more spread out and not so vulnerable around water sources. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out! Good Luck to you Guys!!
 
Yep, people that have been willing to sit and wait for a specific hunting experience really got hosed by the new elk plan. Such is life when you let loud minority groups take control of the public process and the silent majority stays silent.
 
The increase in Pine Valley doesn’t make any since unless the harvest last year was down. It’s good to hear the fawn survival rate was higher this year than last year. The Beaver unit probably ahead of the Pine about 1 year as far buck to doe ratio.
 
Mountain goat permits have plummeted. I've heard a lot of it is because of the amount of nannies getting taken. Sure wish they'd implement a $200 fine or something if you shoot a nanny. No loss of hunting privileges or anything like that, but just an incentive to make sure you take a billy.
 
quest said:
The increase in Pine Valley doesn’t make any since unless the harvest last year was down. It’s good to hear the fawn survival rate was higher this year than last year. The Beaver unit probably ahead of the Pine about 1 year as far buck to doe ratio.
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It wasn't too long ago where they were giving out close to 5,000 permits on the pine valley. I too wish they wouldn't have increased it that much, but just saying.
 
Vanilla said:
Yep, people that have been willing to sit and wait for a specific hunting experience really got hosed by the new elk plan. Such is life when you let loud minority groups take control of the public process and the silent majority stays silent.
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The silent majority is what drove the elk committees decision making processes. We tried to cut out the vocal minority.
 
lump, I assume you pulled that from the video. There is context here that is important, as was clearly stated in the video.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
Mountain goat permits have plummeted. I've heard a lot of it is because of the amount of nannies getting taken. Sure wish they'd implement a $200 fine or something if you shoot a nanny. No loss of hunting privileges or anything like that, but just an incentive to make sure you take a billy.
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There are years when a unit will have 50% nanny harvest. That's with self reporting and no physical check in. Could be even higher.
There are states that issue Billy only tags...
 
mtnrunner260 said:
There are years when a unit will have 50% nanny harvest. That's with self reporting and no physical check in. Could be even higher.
There are states that issue Billy only tags...
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Then there is Utah who offers nanny only tags!

Keep in mind they took over 130 nannies with nanny only tags in a decade. That doesn't include the ones taken with hunter choice tags.
 
elkassassin said:
WE CAN'T STOCKPILE DEER FOREVER!

UN-F'N-BELIEVABLE!
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You are not looking at it correctly..

There just ain't enough winter range to ever have big numbers of deer as ever so often you will get a winter like this and the deer herd will drop off from starvation.

You can't put 2 cups of water in a one cup container.
 
But there is more than enough range for the deer numbers we have now so why aren’t we trying to grow the herd. If we can’t save a few let’s just open the state up and get it over with. Let everyone have an opportunity, hell we don’t want to stockpile any, that might mean a mature buck or two might survive.
 
If nobody ever killed another deer they still would not recover back to historic highs.

If you really think about it, if there were more deer on the landscape this past fall, wouldn't that indicate more winter kill this winter?
 
I expected 15k in tag cuts. I never thought it would be just above a thousand. I figured the DNR was going to pull way back on numbers.
 
wstrntines said:
I expected 15k in tag cuts. I never thought it would be just above a thousand. I figured the DNR was going to pull way back on numbers.
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What is the reason for 15k less tags in Utah? Yes I realize there are some areas that are hurting but most areas are the same or better then last fall.

Cutting buck deer tags is not going to make much impact on deer Herd numbers it can even cause more deer to die in a bad winter!

I guess I can only explained it by explaining that cattle ranchers do not jeep bulls they sale there steers off and then keep just enough bulls to breed the cows.

Reason is they only have so much winter area to keep cattle in the winter and there's only so much feed for the winter to keep there herd healthy so they keep cows that have been breed and will sale off there cows that do not give birth.

I do wish DNR could start holding feed foe the w I ter a n d start feeding sooner so that areas could hold more deer but I don't think that will happen...
 
notrace said:
What is the reason for 15k less tags in Utah? Yes I realize there are some areas that are hurting but most areas are the same or better then last fall.

Cutting buck deer tags is not going to make much impact on deer Herd numbers it can even cause more deer to die in a bad winter!

I guess I can only explained it by explaining that cattle ranchers do not jeep bulls they sale there steers off and then keep just enough bulls to breed the cows.

Reason is they only have so much winter area to keep cattle in the winter and there's only so much feed for the winter to keep there herd healthy so they keep cows that have been breed and will sale off there cows that do not give birth.

I do wish DNR could start holding feed foe the w I ter a n d start feeding sooner so that areas could hold more deer but I don't think that will happen...
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I get what your saying in the cattle comparison. I figured that they would increase elk tags heavier and severely cut deer tags. It’s my understanding that the DNR has encouraged ranches like deseret and other CWMU’s to kill more elk to help balance out feed on the winter range and that elk are over objective.
 
wstrntines said:
I expected 15k in tag cuts. I never thought it would be just above a thousand. I figured the DNR was going to pull way back on numbers.
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I was thinking the exact same thing maybe a 20 to 30% decrease shocked they're only dumping a thousand
 
notrace said:
You are not looking at it correctly..

There just ain't enough winter range to ever have big numbers of deer as ever so often you will get a winter like this and the deer herd will drop off from starvation.

You can't put 2 cups of water in a one cup container.
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I think we do have enough winter range in most of the southern region. I think there is some truth that we can't stockpile bucks, but for heck sakes don't just drastically increase tags when a unit improves a bit. Ease into it.

I feel like the management on the mountain goats could greatly improve!!!! Quit given out either sex tags and nanny tags, for crying out loud. I don't understand what is so hard about that!!
 
Hey shg!

The KING Niller Should CHIME In Soon!

schoolhousegrizz said:
I think we do have enough winter range in most of the southern region. I think there is some truth that we can't stockpile bucks, but for heck sakes don't just drastically increase tags when a unit improves a bit. Ease into it.

I feel like the management on the mountain goats could greatly improve!!!! Quit given out either sex tags and nanny tags, for crying out loud. I don't understand what is so hard about that!!
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ElmerFudd said:
Mountain goats are not native to Utah. Just be happy they let the herds stay constant!
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The problem is, they are not trying to get rid of them, so quit getting rid of them! They are trying to manage them, they are just not doing a great job. They are a valuable resource to hunters and the DWR.
When I think the dwr is doing a good job I say so. I think they've done a good job lately on a lot of different things, but not mountain goat.
 
Last year they increased tags on the Cache. A unit that historically has struggled to reach objective. How many of those bucks that were harvested last fall would have died this winter? Are they going to die one way or another?

As for the goat tags it wasn't many years ago that they were found in increasing numbers south of Ben Lomond with many sightings south of I84. I don't know what changed other than transplants.
 
I Was Glad To See Them Make The Mountain Goat Tags Either Sex!

Before That There Was Several Animals Wasted After Joe Blow Walked Up & Said:

I Just Shot a Nanny!

Wasted It & Moved On & Killed Another Goat!

But A Nanny Only Hunt?

JUDAS!
 
What stopped guys from killing a billy on a nanny hunt and walking away? Can’t have it both ways. I think a Billy only hunt would be a good idea. If nanny hunters were expected to tell the difference then billy hunters could as well.

I think it’s hilarious that elkass is cool with killin nanny’s on either sex tags when the goat numbers are down but HELL EEFIN NO when talkin mule deer. Judas Priest!
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
I think we do have enough winter range in most of the southern region. I think there is some truth that we can't stockpile bucks, but for heck sakes don't just drastically increase tags when a unit improves a bit. Ease into it.
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elkassassin said:
Hey shg!

The KING Niller Should CHIME In Soon!
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Bessy, you're starting to catch on! You had to know I'd show up with some actual data instead of just internet pizzing and moaning. You're learning. Who said you can't teach old dogs new tricks?

Schoolhousegrizz, here is the issue I have with the statement above...I assume you are referring to the Pine Valley unit. Here are the total tag allocations, according to the harvest data published by the Division, each year for the Pine Valley.

2019- 4,614
2020- 4,673
2021- 4,184
2022- 1,890

So from 2019-2021 we averaged 4,490 permits. In 2022 they cut tags 58%. FIFTY EIGHT PERCENT! The proposed increase on the Pine Valley this year would still only take the unit to 60% of the tags that unit had just 3 years ago. So...I would argue this very much is "easing into it." You've still got 2,000 more tags before it's back to levels just 2-3 years ago. I won't even go back a decade and compare those numbers, because I think you get the point.

Of course, this is just factual and objective data and not just internet banter and whining, so I'm not sure it's actually worth anything to anyone here. I still thought it was worth sharing. Perspective is important in these conversations.
 
You Need To Read Before Making Your Own Thing Out Of It!

Average Joe Blow Hunter Looking at a Herd Of Goats!

What's Average Joe Blow Looking for?

He's looking For What Looks To Be The Biggest Set Of Horns!

BOOM!

Walks Up & Nanny Down!

Good Thing It's An Either Sex Tag,At Least He Can Legally Tag it!

Believe Me,.It Happens!

If you Don't Believe Me Contact The DWR & Ask Them Why They Changed it!

It's Not a Guarantee to make Everything Perfect,But an Ethical Hunter Might Say:

Oops,I Just Shot a Nanny,Gonna Have To Tag It!

I'm Sure There's Still Goats Wasted,But I Think This Helps!

But I See The KING Was Quick To Give You A Thumbs Up Before Thinking It Out As Well!

Am I For Killing Females In Any Species?

I Don't F'N Think So!


Airborne said:
What stopped guys from killing a billy on a nanny hunt and walking away? Can’t have it both ways. I think a Billy only hunt would be a good idea. If nanny hunters were expected to tell the difference then billy hunters could as well.

I think it’s hilarious that elkass is cool with killin nanny’s on either sex tags when the goat numbers are down but HELL EEFIN NO when talkin mule deer. Judas Priest!
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Vanilla said:
Bessy, you're starting to catch on! You had to know I'd show up with some actual data instead of just internet pizzing and moaning. You're learning. Who said you can't teach old dogs new tricks?

Schoolhousegrizz, here is the issue I have with the statement above...I assume you are referring to the Pine Valley unit. Here are the total tag allocations, according to the harvest data published by the Division, each year for the Pine Valley.

2019- 4,614
2020- 4,673
2021- 4,184
2022- 1,890

So from 2019-2021 we averaged 4,490 permits. In 2022 they cut tags 58%. FIFTY EIGHT PERCENT! The proposed increase on the Pine Valley this year would still only take the unit to 60% of the tags that unit had just 3 years ago. So...I would argue this very much is "easing into it." You've still got 2,000 more tags before it's back to levels just 2-3 years ago. I won't even go back a decade and compare those numbers, because I think you get the point.

Of course, this is just factual and objective data and not just internet banter and whining, so I'm not sure it's actually worth anything to anyone here. I still thought it was worth sharing. Perspective is important in these conversations.
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Yes, I said earlier that it wasn't too long ago they were giving around 5000 tags. They cut it down a huge amount, which shows they were giving out way too many tags for. While 2800 tags is quite low, it is a big increase from 1700. I see your point and I guess time will tell. I would have like to have seen a smaller increase. It seems to me like years of over hunting can't be fixed in 1 year. 2800 could be closer to where the max number should be. They have the numbers and
the expertise, but their numbers sure seem off sometimes. I know they're trying so I give them credit for that. They have done a lot of good things lately.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
Yes, I said earlier that it wasn't too long ago they were giving around 5000 tags. They cut it down a huge amount, which shows they were giving out way too many tags for. While 2800 tags is quite low, it is a big increase from 1700. I see your point and I guess time will tell. I would have like to have seen a smaller increase. It seems to me like years of over hunting can't be fixed in 1 year. 2800 could be closer to where the max number should be. They have the numbers and
the expertise, but their numbers sure seem off sometimes. I know they're trying so I give them credit for that. They have done a lot of good things lately.
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I think I can help answer the "why" part of their increase.

And I don't totally buy into this logic but this is what they believe.

A good chunk of the adult deer that die of something other than hunters each year are the yearlings, both doe and buck they have found they just don't make it as much as the other older deer. So their logic is if a lot of these younger bucks are going to die anyway and people are happy to kill them (which a lot of people are) then why not let the hunters have a wack at them.

Again while I do understand the logic, I don't totally agree with it. But the vast majority of general season hunters are happy killing the first buck they see.

Personally I feel if we ever want to have a better quality general season hunt we need to change the thinking of the general season hunters.

Make them see that it's OK to go home without a deer and you don't need to kill the little guys. I think that shift is happening especially as tags get harder to draw people are at least holding out a little longer before they dump a yearling.

I know I have seen a shift in my own extended family in this direction.
 
elkassassin said:
You Need To Read Before Making Your Own Thing Out Of It!

Average Joe Blow Hunter Looking at a Herd Of Goats!

What's Average Joe Blow Looking for?

He's looking For What Looks To Be The Biggest Set Of Horns!

BOOM!

Walks Up & Nanny Down!

Good Thing It's An Either Sex Tag,At Least He Can Legally Tag it!

Believe Me,.It Happens!

If you Don't Believe Me Contact The DWR & Ask Them Why They Changed it!

It's Not a Guarantee to make Everything Perfect,But an Ethical Hunter Might Say:

Oops,I Just Shot a Nanny,Gonna Have To Tag It!

I'm Sure There's Still Goats Wasted,But I Think This Helps!

But I See The KING Was Quick To Give You A Thumbs Up Before Thinking It Out As Well!

Am I For Killing Females In Any Species?

I Don't F'N Think So!
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Let's see if I can put this in a way you will understand

Average Joe Blow Nanny Hunter had to make sure it was a NANNY before BANGing AWAY

WHY THEM NANNY HUNTERS HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT A BILLY ONLY HUNT IS JUST TOO HARD?

HELL EFFIN RIGHT IT IS! JUDAS...

Saw a BILLY get WHACKED on the Willard NANNY hunt back in 2011, GUY turned HIMSELF IN!

WHY--because he knew he done WRONG!

YEEHAA HELLS RIGHT, BANG BANG!

If'in a NANNY hunter can do it a BILLY hunter could too

JUDAS...you think you can kill all them FEMALES and have a HERD!!! Well YA CAN'T!!! BOOM!

Something... something... F'N RIGHT, NOBODY HUNTS BUT ME!!

There ya go elkass, hope-un my basin lingo can find a landing zone in your noggin! ;)
 
JakeH said:
I think I can help answer the "why" part of their increase.

And I don't totally buy into this logic but this is what they believe.

A good chunk of the adult deer that die of something other than hunters each year are the yearlings, both doe and buck they have found they just don't make it as much as the other older deer. So their logic is if a lot of these younger bucks are going to die anyway and people are happy to kill them (which a lot of people are) then why not let the hunters have a wack at them.

Again while I do understand the logic, I don't totally agree with it. But the vast majority of general season hunters are happy killing the first buck they see.

Personally I feel if we ever want to have a better quality general season hunt we need to change the thinking of the general season hunters.

Make them see that it's OK to go home without a deer and you don't need to kill the little guys. I think that shift is happening especially as tags get harder to draw people are at least holding out a little longer before they dump a yearling.

I know I have seen a shift in my own extended family in this direction.
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One way we could make sure people don’t shoot the first buck they see is to make an antler restriction. Let’s say 3 point or better on one side unless you’re a youth.
 
JakeH said:
Personally I feel if we ever want to have a better quality general season hunt we need to change the thinking of the general season hunters.
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Here is where this gets sticky: Who gets to decide what the definition of "quality" is?

Because I'm almost positive my definition of a "quality hunt" is not the same as many that post on this forum. So which one of us gets to be right when we start legislating "quality?"
 
Vanilla said:
Here is where this gets sticky: Who gets to decide what the definition of "quality" is?

Because I'm almost positive my definition of a "quality hunt" is not the same as many that post on this forum. So which one of us gets to be right when we start legislating "quality?"
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I agree with Jake and you Vanilla. It would be nice to change the thinking but I don't think that will ever happen on a large scale. People get a tag every couple years, they're going to make sure they go home with something, especially up and coming hunters.
 
I could see the rational behind your logic Jake, if I believed those yearling deer died anyway. I don’t. My logic is, if they survived the predators from June until November, (in a well managed unit) if they put enough fat on to survive their first winter, December thru May…… they have just as much chance at surviving their second winter and beyond.

If your theory is what they actually believe, I believe it is a theory they have “talked themselves into”, to justify their hunter management/recreational/maximum opportunity management plan.

35 years ago, at these RAC type meeting the DWR biologist would preach that “you can’t kill to many deer, they’re like flies”, now they are preaching, “deer are going to die anyway, we owe it to the hunters to kill them first”.

Pure and simple, I do not trust the UDWR….. when it comes to mule deer management. You shouldn’t either.
 
2lumpy said:
I could see the rational behind your logic Jake, if I believed those yearling deer died anyway. I don’t. My logic is, if they survived the predators from June until November, (in a well managed unit) if they put enough fat on to survive their first winter, December thru May…… they have just as much chance at surviving their second winter and beyond.

If your theory is what they actually believe, I believe it is a theory they have “talked themselves into”, to justify their hunter management/recreational/maximum opportunity management plan.

35 years ago, at these RAC type meeting the DWR biologist would preach that “you can’t kill to many deer, they’re like flies”, now they are preaching, “deer are going to die anyway, we owe it to the hunters to kill them first”.

Pure and simple, I do not trust the UDWR….. when it comes to mule deer management. You shouldn’t either.
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Not my logic lumpy, as I said I'm not totally sold on the theory.

They have done studys with GPS collard animals that have shown that the yearlings don't survive as well as the older deer, I won't dispute the study, but they are also fairly new studys as the technology that they have been using hasn't been around long enough. So how much of those younger deer that died, would have lived under different circumstances. I think it has been fairly well proven that the drought conditions from the last 10 years has had a much more substantial impact on the deer herds than previously thought due to decreased range conditions and what not.

My hope is that the cycle has started to change and hopefully we are getting out of those conditions with the wet falls, and winters we have been having the last few years.

So how will those yearlings do when conditions are better for their survival. I don't think the studys have proven the case 100% and it will be interesting to see how things progress the next few years.
 
Vanilla said:
Here is where this gets sticky: Who gets to decide what the definition of "quality" is?

Because I'm almost positive my definition of a "quality hunt" is not the same as many that post on this forum. So which one of us gets to be right when we start legislating "quality?"
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Ohh for sure Vanilla quality is very subjective, hell my own definition has shifted over the years.

But personally I think most people would like to see lots of deer with availability of more than just yearling bucks.

I think if you could get the majority of people to hold out for even the next age class of deer the "quality" would increase across the board for everyone involved.
 
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I agree. 3 point or better could help solve some of the problem. I know some will say it will not work, people will shoot a 2 point and walk away, but I think there are still plenty of honest hunters for this to work. It is sure worth a try, even if they just try it in selected units.
 
southernutahhunter said:
I agree. 3 point or better could help solve some of the problem. I know some will say it will not work, people will shoot a 2 point and walk away, but I think there are still plenty of honest hunters for this to work. It is sure worth a try, even if they just try it in selected units.
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Except for the states that have already tried it and it didn't work...
 
I agree it’s all about the hunter choice. I don’t know why we can’t have both. In Pine Valley the majority of the harvest is small bucks Fish lake the same way. It started looking good when the buck/doe ratio got up to 22/100.
 
Vanilla said:
Antler point restrictions? I'll just leave this right here:


And this:

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I read both of these, they said a negative is it puts the pressure on the older bucks and only older bucks are being harvested resulting in fewer mature deer. I disagree, it is instead giving the younger bucks a chance to reach maturity.
 
Elkslayer1125 said:
I disagree, it is instead giving the younger bucks a chance to reach maturity.
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We are all free to agree and disagree with anything we choose. However, these studies have actual observations and data from previous attempts to implement APRs to back them up. So I would respectfully ask, do you?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about that. This is just our reality. We can all dispute anything we want and have any opinion we want. That is the beauty of America, and this is still America! But policies, especially policies impacting public resources, should be based upon facts and data, not opinions and feelings.
 
I value herd health over inches 100% of the time, because if you don't have herd health, you eventually won't have the inches.

But that's just me. Like I said above, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on things.
 
Vanilla said:
I value herd health over inches 100% of the time, because if you don't have herd health, you eventually won't have the inches.

But that's just me. Like I said above, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on things.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with you on that, but it doesn’t seem like whatever we’re doing now is working. They may say herds are fine and numbers are up but I just don’t see it, we need more accurate population counts and accurate harvest numbers, make harvest reporting mandatory.
 
Vanilla said:
I value herd health over inches 100% of the time, because if you don't have herd health, you eventually won't have the inches.

But that's just me. Like I said above, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on things.
Click to expand...
I do as well, but I don't feel that having a majority of the bucks being yearlings is part of a healthy herd.

I wish they would adjust their management plan of so man bucks per 100 does to include a sub set of x amount of those bucks should be older than yearlings. That should be easily attainable as the difference from 1 to 2+ is usually fairly significant.

So if they manage for 20 :100 then 10 of those 20 should be older than yearlings.

If I could make a change that is one I would like to entertain, something like that.
 
There’s definitely a problem when you see nothing but small bucks. There needs to be overall age class.
 
quest said:
There’s definitely a problem when you see nothing but small bucks. There needs to be overall age class.
Click to expand...


Not to be rude but that is the nature of bigger mature deer in general. Also each year there will be less and less mature deer do to all of the different things they need to go through.

There's almost always going to be more younger deer then older deer plus younger deer just are not all that smart the first couple years but after a few incounters with cougars, hunters, cars, and old mother nature they get wister in there ways.
 
quest said:
There’s definitely a problem when you see nothing but small bucks.
Click to expand...

And sometimes the problem is us.

Lots of mature bucks getting killed by Utah hunters on general areas every year. Lots, and lots of mature bucks.

My best day hunting last year was a day it was just me and my daughter and we saw over 130 deer that we counted, but only small bucks. I decided to not pull the trigger and we just enjoyed an awesome day in the mountains together. I didn’t see that day as a problem at all. It was closer to perfect than it was to being a problem, actually.

I think we’ve completely lost our way as hunters if we define our success in inches. I’ll keep saying that over and over again.
 
First things first………. grow a decent population of mule deer……. then and only then should you start managing for age class………. Then I’ll support an age class discussion.

I pushed bucks per 100 does in the 1980s. I pushed 4 point or better, and won 3 point or better for five years on the Fish Lake, Parker, Pahvant, and Monroe.

Right now all we should be focused on is fawn per 100 doe survival. I agree with elkassassin 100% when he say’s buck/ doe ratio management is a horrible way to manage deer and I can’t support antler management because it is putting the focus on killing deer rather than the focus on growing more deer.

in today’s environment, socially/economically/politically, if your going to use a ratio besides fawn/doe survival it would be some type of caring capacity to deer population.

But, I had my turn at trying to keep mule deer viable, it’s the next generation’s task, if they want it, now.
 
LOL!

You're Part Way There!



Airborne said:
Let's see if I can put this in a way you will understand

Average Joe Blow Nanny Hunter had to make sure it was a NANNY before BANGing AWAY

WHY THEM NANNY HUNTERS HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT A BILLY ONLY HUNT IS JUST TOO HARD?
Click to expand...
Too Hard For Some I Guess,That's Why The DWR Changed It,Not My Way But Works For Some That Can't Tell The Difference!

Airborne said:
HELL EFFIN RIGHT IT IS! JUDAS...
Click to expand...

LOL!
Airborne said:
Saw a BILLY get WHACKED on the Willard NANNY hunt back in 2011, GUY turned HIMSELF IN!
Click to expand...
You Mean There Is An Honest Goat Hunter in DRATville?


Airborne said:
WHY--because he knew he done WRONG!
Click to expand...
You Sure He Didn't Want A Billy More Than a NANNY?:D
Airborne said:
YEEHAA HELLS RIGHT, BANG BANG!
Click to expand...
Ya That's It For Most,BANG Away!
Airborne said:
If'in a NANNY hunter can do it a BILLY hunter could too
Click to expand...
Yes Sir!
Airborne said:
JUDAS...you think you can kill all them FEMALES and have a HERD!!! Well YA CAN'T!!! BOOM!
Click to expand...
Totally Agree!
Airborne said:
Something... something... F'N RIGHT, NOBODY HUNTS BUT ME!!

There ya go elkass, hope-un my basin lingo can find a landing zone in your noggin! ;)
Click to expand...
Your GRAMMAR SUCKS!

But At Least You've Got Some CAPS Going!:D
 
They Tried That In The Book Cliffs Several Years Ago!

I Can't Tell You How Many Medium/Fairly Big 2 Points Me & My Friend Found While Hunting The Later Muzz Hunt Wasted after They Walked Up & Said: It's Just A 2 Point, F'It!

I Don't Know If A Fine For Shooting a Smaller Buck in an Antler Size Restricted Hunt is in HELL-F'N-RIGHT or not But If It Ain't It Should Be!







southernutahhunter said:
At least they make it to maturity with antler restrictions. The way it is now, it is not happening.
Click to expand...
 
Set Up a Simulator with a 20" 2-3 Point Running away & 97% of DRATS Are Blazin away!

It's A BIG SOB!

Ya,Right!
 
elkassassin said:
Set Up a Simulator with a 20" 2-3 Point Running away & 97% of DRATS Are Blazin away!

It's A BIG SOB!

Ya,Right!
Click to expand...
I used to agree 100% with you elk I think or I hope with Optics now being a little bit more prevalent people might know what they're shooting at
 
They need To Start a Few 4 Point or Better/Minimum 30" Wide Units Up & Let Us Gamble!

But It'd Never Work!

The F'N Opportunists Would BAWL!
 
3 point or better was on the wellsville in the 80s I loved it.
There was a lot of deer on there then.
A few were left but you see that on that mountain anyway they get excited boom then realize they got to pack it off that steep potlicker and keep walking
 

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