Honest Spike Elk Hunting Question

[Broadside_Shot]

This is in a Limited Entry Unit in Utah.

All these Bulls are Legal for Spike Harvest during the Archery Hunt

You have a Chance at All 4 Bulls. Which one gets shot First?

 

[Gunnihunter]

Don?t shoot spikes

 

[Shadow]

The first one dumb enough to turn broadside. Good eating right there.

 

[WhiskeyDog]

After seeing the destruction the spike hunt is causing, I'm hoping they all hide and I get a chance to chase them in 7-8 more years.

 

[elkassassin]

>After seeing the destruction the spike
>hunt is causing, I'm hoping
>they all hide and I
>get a chance to chase
>them in 7-8 more years.
>

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

Spike bull means a bull elk which has at least
one antler beam with no branching above the
ears. Branched means a projection on an antler
longer than one inch, measured from its base
to its tip.

Straight from the field regulations book.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

I posted this post as to hope and see if my thoughts were correct. They might not be.

I think the Spike Hunt has hurt Quality on the Limited Entry units because I feel that alot of Spikes are getting killed and not many are surviving.

So I wanted to see which ones are surviving.

Spike Hunting is legal in Utah and I am by no means telling someone to not hunt Spikes. I have killed my share. I like the Meat very much. I do think that too many are being killed though.

Im not sure about this but I speculate to think that the Taller Spikes and the one with the Brow Tines are better genetic bulls.

I feel that for many people given the chance will shoot the so called bigger Spike vs the Smaller. In turn with too many spike tags then the so called bigger bulls are getting targeted at one year old and then you target the so called bigger bulls on the Limited entry side and then you have it, burning your candle from both ends and Less Quality in your Elk Herd.

It doesn't happen over 1 year but I think over time it has taken its toll.

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

>I posted this post as to
>hope and see if my
>thoughts were correct. They
>might not be.
>
>I think the Spike Hunt has
>hurt Quality on the Limited
>Entry units because I feel
>that alot of Spikes are
>getting killed and not many
>are surviving.
>
>So I wanted to see which
>ones are surviving.
>
>Spike Hunting is legal in Utah
>and I am by no
>means telling someone to not
>hunt Spikes. I have
>killed my share. I
>like the Meat very much.
> I do think that
>too many are being killed
>though.
>
>Im not sure about this but
>I speculate to think that
>the Taller Spikes and the
>one with the Brow Tines
>are better genetic bulls.
>
>I feel that for many people
>given the chance will shoot
>the so called bigger Spike
>vs the Smaller. In
>turn with too many spike
>tags then the so called
>bigger bulls are getting targeted
>at one year old and
>then you target the so
>called bigger bulls on the
>Limited entry side and then
>you have it, burning your
>candle from both ends and
>Less Quality in your Elk
>Herd.
>
>It doesn't happen over 1 year
>but I think over time
>it has taken its toll.
>


Here is some food for thought also. Not saying that spike hunts help or hurt the quality of an elk unit or the quantity of bulls on any particular unit. But lets look at say the last 20 years arguably the quantity of big bulls has gone down depends on who you ask. Has technology of long range hunting improved? Absolutely. Does this encourage people to try farther shots? Absolutely. Has this possibly resulted in someone making a poor shot and losing bulls? I am sure it has. So that right there leads to less mature or big bulls on any particular unit.

The same argument can be had for muzzleloaders and even archery. The improvements we have seen in the past 20 years for our hunting equipment, optics and heck even off road vehicles to access farther back where people had to hike into prior. And with these improvements it should make hunters far more effective and it certainly has but it has also contributed to poor judgement on shots and losing who knows how many elk over those 20 years.

The main point is spike hunting is not the only reason to why there are less big bulls throughout the state but a factor non the less. As hunters WE are all responsible for helping biologists make decisions on tag numbers. Go help with collecting data don't be a key board warrior, go to rac meetings listen, ask biologists questions, read any publications that have been written about elk populations and management.

let the online biologists commenting begin.

 

[N_Corey]

I don't think killing spikes has a direct effect on quality of bulls in a specific unit. Killing spikes does however take away from the overall number of bulls a given unit can sustainably have harvested each year. Each unit has a sweet spot for number of bulls to be harvested whether they're spikes or giants. The tough part F&G departments have is balancing quality and opportunity.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

So why don't you think killing spikes has an effect on Quality other than just saying that.

I am really looking for someone to show me that the little tiny spike that survives can be a 380 class bull.

I have just seen quality slipping, and I mean that I just don't see as many high end bulls as I used before the Spike hunt. There has to be a reason for it I would think.

I have some experience with watching and talking to a guy who had an elk farm. he said the bigger the antlers were on their first year was a good indication that he was going to be the bigger Bull at maturity.

 

[deerkiller]

I would imagine the better genetic bulls are gonna be a 2x2, 2x3, etc.... their first year. I get pics of many bulls every year that are 2 points or better their first year. They have a much greater trophy potential than you 6? spike. Kind of like deer. A decent buck is going to be better than a spike his first year, generally speaking. It's comical to see so many people against spike elk hunting, yet slam the first 2 point buck they see every year. Coincidentally, these are also the same guys bitching about Utah?s trophy animal quality and that there aren't any big animals left.

Let's be honest, most of us won't ever get a tag in Utah to hunt 380 bulls. So let's just be happy with the bull hunts we can participate in every year. If you don't agree with it, don't shoot them. I'll shoot every one I get an chance at

 

[Broadside_Shot]

I have participated in the Spike hunt on Limited Entry Units and between Myself, Dad and Uncle in 2 years we took 3 "Spike Bulls" with Archery that all had 2 points on 1 side and a Spike on the other and were probably 24" long or better.

It was then that we started to think that maybe we were cleaning out the genetics from the bottom up because when my uncle shot his spike there were 2 legal bulls that came to water at the same time and he shot the taller 2 x 1 instead of the 10" Spike that was with him.

I also shot my 2 x 1 while there were 3 other Spikes with him. I actually didn't target him intentionally but he was the biggest one of the 4.

It just has made me wonder if Killing Spikes has effected the Genetics.

Sounds like People Say No Effect so Whack Away!!!

 

[mulecreek]

Wasn't the implementation of the spike only seasons in the early 90's the reason that bull elk hunting in Utah went from nothing to amazing in the 2000's?

Its been awhile and I might have my facts wrong but as a high schooler growing up in Utah I seem to remember that some time around 1990 or 1991 Utah went from General Elk hunting for any bull and a few LQ areas to making just about all the gen areas spike only. Then fast forward a few years and they started making the spike only gen areas also have a LQ hunt with the number of tags offered being based on a desired high end age classification. By 2002 Utah was seeing multiple 400" bulls taken. Fast forward a few more years and people are screaming like mashed cats that it takes too long to draw a LQ tag in Utah so the State decreased the bull age expectations and started issuing more LQ tags at the request of many hunters.

I seem to remember hunting above Scofield reservoir in 1990 under a gen tag and that I could have taken any bull but then in 1991 it was switched to spike only. It's been a while so I could be wrong. I seem to remember that in general hunters thought the spike only tags were going to wipe out the bulls but within a few years people were seeing an improvement in age class of bulls and a corresponding increase in antler size.

At the time elk hunting in Utah was not as popular as it is today. Deer was the absolute king. Its possible that the spike hunts have gotten out of hand as the popularity has increased but I think if done correctly spike hunts can really be a boost for the overall age of a herd along with providing opportunity.

Any old timers like me but better memories know if I am correct?

 

[notdonhunting]

Muleycreek you are right it was around 1990 that spike hunting bacame a reality on most units in the state and the DWR has tried and control the numbers of spike hunters by having a cap on rifle/muzzy hunters.
Now some hunters think some units are over hunted and I am not going to get into an argument on that issue I do not know enough about all the units in the state whether that is true or not. I personally do not fill the quality of bulls we are taking is all that bad, you still can get a impressive bull for most people standards if you scout and hunt hard on most Limited Entry Elk units.
My question to the ones saying spike hunting is diminishing the quality of bulls, could it be we are hunting large bulls during the rut that could be causing quality of bulls to diminish?

 

[mulecreek]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-19 AT 12:57PM (MST)[p]To me the simple answer to why the OP is not seeing as many 380" bulls as he used to is because hunters are killing too many 350" bulls and that it has almost nothing to do with quality of a spike.

Reduce the number of LQ tags and the number of top end bulls will increase accordingly. Genetics are a tricky thing to manage on free range wild herd. A fools errand in my mind.

In all reality, if you want more 380" bulls you need to be prepared to see some bulls die of old age rather than a bullet or arrow. How often does that happen in most elk units across the west?

 

[Shadow]

Mulecreek, you are right, it was around 91 when the Wasatch, Manti and Fishlake went to spike only. Now, I'd just like someone to show me a big bull taken from any of those three units before they went spike only. If there were, they were dang few. I know of one, my dad killed him in 65 I believe it was. Ephraim canyon. 340 bull. Point is, there were very very few big bulls killed before units went to spike only and a five point raghorn was to be paraded around town on the hood of the Jeep. This spike discussion resurfaces about once a year and it's really quite comical. Are there units affected by spike hunting? Sure, the smaller population units do show some effect, but I think it's just as much sheer number of tags, increased pressure, better equipment, trail cams, guides, spotters, social media and rifle rut hunting just as much as it is the spike hunting. And talking about the size of spike horns dictating future trophy quality, that's just hog wash. That's like saying if a baby isn't born at 12 pounds, he'll never exceed 6? tall. Then there's the topic of smaller bulls breeding the cows. If I had gotten my wife pregnant when I was 16 years old, 5?3? tall and weighed 130 pounds, would my kids be midgets? Genetics come from blood, not antlers. I think some units are better because spike hunting, some are worse but that's why we have the option of choosing which unit to apply and how long we want to wait for a tag. In the meantime, I'll shoot a tasty legal spike if I get the chance.

 

[mulecreek]

The research on whitetails and mule deer shows a direct correlation to mature buck antler size and the fat content of his mother when he was in the womb. The higher the fat content of the mom the winter he was growing the bigger his antlers will be at full maturity. If he is born to a boney mom, it doesn't matter what happens from birth to full maturity, he will never achieve as large a set of antlers had his mom been a fatty.

Not sure how it works on elk but I think it is reasonable to assume a similar outcome.

 

[notdonhunting]

Yes shadow you are right about the quality before the late 1990 I know of 4 bulls shot in the late 1960s and 70s on the Manti the 4 bulls range from 340 to 370 but the Manti was a draw for elk until the late 1970s. I grew up on the Manti, high school years during the 1980s and you looked long and hard to find a bull over a rag horn. I personally did not see a bull over a rag horn get killed through out the 1980s and the funny thing is we did not kill out the genetics back then.

 

[slamdunk]

A spike is a spike is a spike.....best opportunity for a shot you get, take it.

 

[justr_86]

Let's make spikes illegal to shoot on the general units, brows 4 inches or better to be a legal bull.

Big bulls for everyone!

 

[slamdunk]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-19 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]>Let's make spikes illegal to shoot
>on the general units, brows
>4 inches or better to
>be a legal bull.
>
>Big bulls for everyone!
>
Most general spike units are LE units.....C'mon Kenny, you know that!
If you had 15-18 points for the Pahvant and they decided to open it up to "branch antler only" would you be happy about it?

 

[N_Corey]

My statement about not having an effect on quality was just from what I've seen in several areas that have general season spike hunts. These units still produce bulls over 400? so I don't think it has an effect on quality. I think a lot of other factors have more effect on quality than killing spikes. Could those spikes turn into giants? I'd say yes but I don't think you can really tell their potential when they're that young. I've also never shot a spiky because I've never had a desire to so this is just my opinion and observations.

 

[justr_86]

>LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-19
>AT 06:50?PM (MST)
>
>>Let's make spikes illegal to shoot
>>on the general units, brows
>>4 inches or better to
>>be a legal bull.
>>
>>Big bulls for everyone!
>>
>Most general spike units are LE
>units.....C'mon Kenny, you know that!
>
>If you had 15-18 points for
>the Pahvant and they decided
>to open it up to
>"branch antler only" would you
>be happy about it?

There is a method to their madness on the spike hunts... carrying capacity and cattle grazing. If there's bulls all over, there's less room for cows and an overall unhealthy herd... it does a good job of it and also opens opportunity.

The over harvest of cows that was going on for a few years is really why numbers and quality dropped. The bulls were fighting harder and killing each other for a herd of 3-5 cows with 10 satellite bulls following them... they cut that back and left spike hunts there and herds are recovering...

My quit killing spikes on general units was half smart ass half truth as it was proposed a few years ago. Honestly I don't really see that being a bad thing though...

 

[slamdunk]

>The over harvest of cows that
>was going on for a
>few years is really why
>numbers and quality dropped. The
>bulls were fighting harder and
>killing each other for a
>herd of 3-5 cows with
>10 satellite bulls following them...


I couldn't agree more!?

 

[Broadside_Shot]

I Love the Interesting Perspectives and Thanks from All that Commented. I really have wondered what the thoughts were on the Spike issues and have thought some more about it.

I would say that obviously there are Alot of Factors that contribute to the Overall Health of the Herd and if one of those issues are out of Whack it can effect certain things.

So if in one case their are 0 Spikes then it will have its effect and if there are 0 cows then it has its effect and 0 Big Bulls then it has its effect and you get my point.

In a nutshell, when the Spike Hunt was introduced it was to allow a Bull that survived his yearling year to have better odds of making it too maturity and then have a better balance of a healthy elk herd.

Before he would have to survive every hunting season from hunters and there were just too many chances for him to get killed and the odds were much lower for him to reach maturity and therefore your Raghorns were controlling the herds but not like a real mature bull would and therefore not healthy for the elk herd.

The genetics are still there weather they are young or old so when they breed shouldn't matter. Obviously you can shoot a Spike that has the Genes if he survived to be a Huge Bull but really no way to know it.

So in summary I think you have to have to Strive for the Best Balance possible of all the scenarios. Right amount of Cows, Spikes, Raghorns, and Mature Bulls. And obviously this is the challenge.

Hunting is the best way to manage this so hopefully we can Regulate to where we don't take too Much from one Part of the Pie

 

[Vanilla]

I noticed someone state above that the quality of bulls is down from before when the state started allowing spike only hunts on LE units.

Do we all know when spike elk hunting started and what the state of Utah elk hunting was at the time?

 

[txhunter58]

Are spike tags for these units OTC or limited?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Deerlove]

limited

 

[txhunter58]

What if they allowed those limited tags to take raghorns, but not spikes. In other words give those spikes another year to grow and then decimate them. Anything 2-4 points are legal, just not spikes and not 5 point or better? Most hunters would be happier with a raghorn instead of a spike, wouldn't they? And the same number of young bulls get killed.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[DBG3285]

I have seen this topic come and go and so forth for years.

As a life long resident and hunter of the Wasatch unit, I think I can weigh in a bit.

I remember when my family used to hunt on the ?east? side of the unit and it was open bull, I also remember when the moved the North west side of the unit from open to limited and spike only.

The unit has had huge ups and downs, but quality and quantity wise for bulls. The spike only has made this unit way better than it ever was.

Numbers have been hurt by the cow hunts. Quality has been hurt by them getting hunted for 5 months and a large increase in big bull tags. If they took the rut rifle hunt away, I think the quality would come back (even though it was great last year).

 

[JakeH]

Tx, the Spike bull tags are general tags that are good for almost all the limited entry units in the state. They sell 15,000 tags over the counter for rifle and muzzy, and also an unlimited number of archery permits that are good for both the general any bull areas, and the spike only Limited entry units.

Personally I am not a fan of the spike hunts, but if they are going to keep doing them I feel they need to set a quota for each unit, a set number of tags for each LE unit not the free for all that is in place now.



Jake H.

 

[Shadow]

I totally agree Jake, it's been proven over the last 30 years that large units like the Wasatch, Fishlake and Manti can survive spike harvest with little impact on the number of big bulls but the San Juan, Books, Monroe and smaller units not so much. I like your idea of spike harvest being limited on those units to match tag numbers to the actual population. Or maybe allow only muzz and archery like they did on Monroe? Did I hear correctly that the Monroe will have the rifle spike hunt returning this year? Or did I just dream that one up?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Shadow you are correct,they opened it back up this year.

I totally agree Jake, it's been proven over the last 30 years that large units like the Wasatch, Fishlake and Manti can survive spike harvest with little impact on the number of big bulls but the San Juan, Books, Monroe and smaller units not so much. I like your idea of spike harvest being limited on those units to match tag numbers to the actual population. Or maybe allow only muzz and archery like they did on Monroe?

I totally agree with all this +1