Hunters Beware!

S

stoney

Active Member
Messages
504
This is an old on going problem but is getting worse everyday. That is the undue influence the western states' Wildlife Federations are perpetrating on the unsuspecting sportsmen and hunters of all the western states as well as across the nation.

These state organizations, while promoting their brand of conservation, are powered and financed substantially by the National Wildlife Federation and the huge grants they receive from the likes of the Turner Endangered Species Foundation, Pew Charitable Trust, Joyce Foundation and many others. They have almost unlimited funds to push their very green agenda.

The MTWF and the WYWF were two of the main movers and shakers to allow and perpetrate the Northern Rocky Mountains Wolf Recovery movement that has turned the Game Dept's of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming upside down. It has forever changed the landscape of the west. They have a mission and it is not to save the wolves, only to use them as a pawn to stop all consumptive uses on the public land ans well as private lands. The NMWF is doing the same for the Mexican Gray Wolf programs in NM & AZ.

Along with these green to the gills organizations they were aided and abetted by the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and Trout Unlimited among other radical environmental groups whom all operate under the guise of the North American Wildlife Conservation principles. They use the NAMWC as a cover for their mission.

These groups are no friend of the true and average sportsmen and conservationist.

These groups have duped the average joe hunter for many years, and continue to infect and poison true conservation efforts with their real mission to remove ranchers, hunters, loggers, miners and recreationist from the western landscape.
 
It is not so much anti-hunting as their green mind set towards being fine with the wolves because they think they have a place in the ecosystem. We are uncovering evidence these WF groups were and are directly promoting and working in lock step with the USFWS in the wolf endeavors. the USFWS brags at how the supposed largest sportsmen/hunter organization in the US the NWF and it's affiliates, is supporting their efforts.

They have a bias against non resident hunters in that they as residents feel entitled to the lions' share of the tags because of the NAMWC although the wording of the NAMWC is that the wildlife belong to all the public, plus the fact that the wildlife spend most of their time on private and federal managed lands so the non resident only gets the crumbs and pays through his or her teeth to get to hunt in that state.
 
ColoradoOak,

Thats the long way that stoney uses to not bring an facts to the table.

Seems to me like the MWF sure isnt pro wolf and "fine" with wolves...if only obviously.

MWF strongly supports the use of hunter conservationists utilizing fair chase hunting methods as the agents of wolf removal in this proposal. Not only does a using hunter conservationist reduce the cost of wolf removal, but it also provides for more hunter opportunity, and it gives the hunter conservationist a real and measured stake in wolf conservation as well as elk conservation. Hunter Conservationists have been the primary agent of Conservation funding for the last 100 years in Montana, and Nationwide. It is critical to maintain that valued and accepted role in working towards increasing the Elk Herd in EMU 250 back to its objective levels. Hunter Conservationists are the most effective agents of wildlife management when it comes to cost effectiveness, efficiency and ethical use of the wildlife resource. To include them in this proposal is to continue the most successful conservation model ever devised: The North American Model of Fish and Wildlife Conservation. We applaud Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks for their continued application of this model.

Read the entire article here:

http://www.montanawildlife.com/projectsissues/10JWolfHunt.htm
 
If it weren't for guys like you Buzz and your so called conservationist organizations we might not have had the wolves to begin with and now you brag about how conservationists are utilizing fair chase hunting methods which are minimal at best and only a part of trying to correct the tremendous damage done to the public and private resource by bringing in the wolves in the first place. You guys at the MWF did nothing in the initial stages to defend hunting and sat quiet for much of the time and now you act like you are so darn goody goody with your NAM conservation ethic. You hide behind it Buzz to make up for your twisted sense of the way the ecosystem should be managed. Mankind is but a small part of you and your so called conservationist do gooder baloney.

You and your cronies are either being duped or you are conscious of the true goals of the wolf proliferation, the spotted owl fiasco (they weren't ever and are never going to be extinct)and now the sage grouse and sand dune lizard movement to stop all oil drilling and livestock grazing on vast acreages of land in the western plains.

The Mexican Gray Wolf so called re-introduction is also being coddled by the NMWF so called conservationists. The program is succeeding and several ranchers have either quit or gone out of business because of the wolf collateral damage. You greenies are getting your wish. You hate public lands livestock grazers especially and barely like the private land rancher unless he has many sections of BLM and State land checkerboarded in their ranch, then you hate them because you don't have unfettered access to those scattered sections of land.

Now don't tell me this is a crock of chit Buzz because you know it isn't, but you would like to think the other average joe hunters will believe you. Believe you me, you won't win this argument on the MM site.

Your mother organization the National Wildlife Federation NWF is one of the top green so called conservationist organization in the US. "Most of your membership consists of the most inept,misguided environmentalistic,cowardly, gutless,indecisive hunters and fisherman I have every associated with" according to one poster on the MM whom was a former member of two WF state chapters. He and another member were referred to as the "hook and bullet boys" because they didn't conform to the green make up of the other board members. They were eventually railroaded out or quit when they found out the true modus operandi and mission of the WF.

If only the true conservationist hunters and fishermen would please stand up and tell you where to go Mr. Buzzy. I'm sure you could find a job with your mother organization NWF with your like minded vision of so called conservation.
 
Hey Buzz looks like Stoney has you pegged AGAIN!!!

I bet your buddy 4100fps is part of MWF too! His hate for other sportsman, ranchers and outfitters is endless...
 
Hey stoney...facts matter...and you've brought nothing. As per usual, the only thing you shoot is your mouth.

Please respond to ColoradoOaks post.

FACTS.

This time, when you post, try not to breath through your mouth so much.

Thanks.
 
I'm one of the most "wolf hunting" dudes you will find. I have filmed and aired the first ever televised Lower 48 wolf hunting TV episode. I've got piles of death wishes from the screwballs and wingnuts who don't like my televised and unapologetic support for wolf hunting and wolf trapping.

That being said, I find the GreenDecoy website, and lobbyist funding that has supported/created it, to be a kick in the crotch to hunters. One of the biggest piles of crap I have read in years.

One might want to investigate who is behind the GreenDecoy garbage. When you do, you will quickly realize it is big pile of thick-wallet DC lobbyists and their donors who have little use for hunters and anglers. A group of corporations who are not happy that there are hunters and anglers in America who actually care about wildlife, fishing, access, clean air and water, and are not a bunch of stoolies who can be spoon-fed idiocy in a manner these lobbying fronts are accustomed to serving in large doses to the uninformed.

A smart, active, and prepared cadre of hunters and anglers is more than they can stand. So, they have decided to hire some DC lobbying pros to do their hatchet work.

I am not a member of any Wildlife Federation, or TRCP, or TU, but the guys I see representing them at the meetings and hearings are some good guys- serious hunters and anglers. They are out there going to legislative hearings, advocating for wildlife management, doing the volunteer work. I know that, because I see them there with my own eyes.

Where are the guys who publish the GreenDecoy drivel? Sitting in DC, collecting some fat paychecks from their lobbyist friends who happen to be PO'd that they cannot have free reign of the western states they view as their colonial empires to be exploited. They expect us serfs out here in the west to shut up and stand in line, hoping to silence us on anything that might slow the cash fountains of their lobbying clients.

Don't take my word for it, Google "Richard Berman lobbyist" and see who is behind him and his lobbying empire. I can assure you it won't be any groups who have the future of hunting included in their Top 1,000 list of concerns.

Tell me one thing Backcountry Hunters and Anglers has done that is anti-hunting? Tell me something that TRCP has done that is anti-hunting. What has TU done, other than improve stream access and improve cold-water fisheries throughout the country?

Truth is, you won't be able to find such examples, because these guys are busy doing things for the benefit of hunting, hunters, wildlife and habitat. I may not agree with those groups all the time, but they do good work and anyone or any organization taking a big swipe at those groups needs to be looked at suspiciously.

This is nothing but an attempt to drive the issue of hunting and conservation into the same horsecrap political divisions they like to see in DC. If you want to hijack the mission of hunting and conservation and lead it down the same divisive inept path of political stupidity we see in DC, then Berman and Co. is the group to do it. I ain't buying what he and his cronies are selling.

Hunters have created the greatest conservation miracle ever, based on being leaders, not sucking up to hacks like Rick Berman, the paid hack who owns/runs the Center for Consumer Freedom and owns the GreenDecoys website.

Hunters and anglers have rejected the notion that our issues are "R" or "D," left or right, lib or cons. In doing so, we have done more than any group you can name. If hunting and fishing are going to have any chance in the future, letting the lobbyists and their paid fools lead us there is sure way to a quick end.

Look at the people Berman is associated with, the huge donations he sucks in and from whom, the millions he doles out to his parasitic political friends. Do that, then tell me who is going to have a negative impact on the future of hunting; him and his serpents, or the groups his lobbying clients are upset with and they have attacked with their GreenDecoy sniveling. I can assure you it will be an easy answer.

Surprised hunters would fall for that pile of junk and start down that path of illogic spewed by Berman and his welfare kings. Once people learn more of what this lobbyist-lead effort is, I think they will realize these folks do not have our interest at heart.

I spent 15 years involved in the wolf delisting circus and the guys I saw fighting for our cause included a lot of the guys Berman's lobbying clients seem to hate. If you are a supporter of Berman and his spew, don't bother stopping in at my camp.

When I go out wolf hunting for the next week or so, I suspect I won't see any Berman-types out there. I won't see his other pals out there. They will be in DC, getting fatter and richer, laughing that some hunters fell for the line of BS Berman and Co. were paid handsomely to conjure up.

Carryon ......

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
BigFin,

Do you think Buzz H is a green/decoy??? Or what is he??? cause it sure does not seem like he is on the hunters side of the wolf issue... I think he confuses some hunters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-14 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]Wolfhunter,

I've told you numerous times, my stance on wolves has never changed since wayyyy prior to reintroduction.

Keep them as close as possible to the minimum numbers required to keep them off the list.

Do that via State Management plans...by hunting, trapping, and any other methods outlined in the State Plans.

Its not complicated.

Because I dont choose to be a mouth-breathing arsehole, running around screaming "SSS every wolf in sight", you "think" I'm on the wrong side of the issue. I've purchased wolf tags in Wyoming every year they've been for sale. I also purchase bear and lion tags as well. I dont have the time to trap anymore, but I trapped every species of furbearer in Montana (except wolverine), including one of the last legal lynx ever taken in the lower-48.

I can assure you, nobody, and I mean NOBODY wanted wolves off the list more than I did. NOBODY wants grizzlies off the list more than I do. NOBODY wants to be more proactive in Sage Grouse Management (to keep them OFF the list), than I do.

I'm just inclined to work within the State Regulations and control wolves, elk, deer, etc. legally instead of sounding like an uneducated, drunk, hillbilly, poaching redneck...who's caught up in a little-red riding hood story...saying, "kill-em all!".

I can also assure you, the wolves get relisted because their numbers drop below the required levels...we'll all be up chit creek without a paddle. Then you'll have something to cry about.

If you cant savvy that...go find some sand to pound.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-14 AT 08:35PM (MST)[p]Buzz,

You have some deep seated issues you need to work out with yourself dude....

On second thought maybe your just a false flag operator!
 
Wolfhunter,

You just need to educate yourself and quit believing saveelk.org and lobowatch.

Once you get past that, you'll find the truth.
 
Buzz, dude! By chance, as a young fella, did you happen to shoot the family pet dog because the SOB killed the family and neighbors flock of sheep.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-14 AT 10:20PM (MST)[p]>BigFin,
>
>Do you think Buzz H is
>a green/decoy??? Or what
>is he??? cause it sure
>does not seem like he
>is on the hunters side
>of the wolf issue...
>I think he confuses some
>hunters.

No, I don't think Buzz is a GreenDecoy. Not even close. I suspect if one was in his sights and he had a tag, there would be a dead wolf. I might be wrong, but I suspect I am correct.

What has Buzz provided in his facts (not his delivery) that is incorrect as it relates to wolves, the history or the reintroduction, and the facts of how delisting happened and was delayed?

His personal opinions are his, but when he cites facts, I think they are correct. I have read his posts on wolf topics. I have not seen anything in them that would be incorrect, based on the information and experience I have gained from being involved in this topic since it started, both publicly involved and politically involved.

Buzz is not going to gain any fans with his delivery style. But, I am more interested in facts and historical truth than I am delivery and style.

I think Buzz shares my intolerance for falsehoods, rumors, and barstool BS on topics that are as important as these. The GreenDecoy thing is even lower than barstool BS.

The entire wolf topic is based on so much BS it is hard to have a rational discussion on the topic. Too many take the BS as fact and history, as it might strengthen their opinion. I have no use for that; the topic is too important and challenges ahead are too great to base decisions on bad information and rumors.

I understand Stoney's concern about what is going on in his area. I have hunted the Gila five times for elk. It is an amazing area. I hope it stays that way.

The abuse that was put to hunters in MT/ID/WY in their attempts to gain state control is something that is worth noting, especially with a wolf reintroduction taking place in his area. I think Stoney looks at what happened to MT/ID/WY once we jumped through every hoop, and a lot of hoops we never agreed to, and he is justified in his concern and worry.

Given how the courts, not the USFWS, continually changed the goal line, it is important to hold people and groups accountable to the agreements that are made. It is imperative to stay as involved as possible to make sure agreements are kept and the objectives do not creep/leep.

I wish Stoney nothing but good luck in the effort to keep the NM/AZ issue confined to what was agreed to. I would gladly help, where I can.

Given what happened here, I can assure you that in MT we feel so abused that we will never again agree to a reintroduction of a species that will result in wingnut groups using the courts to circumvent the agreed-upon rules.

In our area, the states agreed to the reintroduction based on agreed-upon criteria. When we met the delisting criteria, the USFWS reviewed our state plans and issued a delisting ruling, only to be sued by the screwball wingnut groups (Center for Biological Diversity, EarthJustice, Alliance for the Wild Rockies and many others). Unfortunately, and not unexpectedly, the groups who were on our side fighting for state control of wolves are the groups Berman and his pals attacked in the GreenDecoy drivel.

Like I said, I am not a member of the Wildlife Federations at either a state of national level. I work with some of their state groups on some important wildlife and access topics.

Here is an example of how things get lost in the effort to corner everyone into a "with us" or "against us" camp. I was at a public hearing where Tom France, an attorney for the National Wildlife Federation, gave a scathing warning to the serial litigants about their continued lawsuits. I have plenty of issues where I might not agree with NWF, but I give them credit for standing up and supporting the state control of wolves once the USFWS approved the plans, even though they got a lot of flack for doing so. They probably have a different perspective on state wolf management tools than I do, but they kept to the word of what was agreed to. Attacking them by citing wrong info and omitting supportive facts, just to fulfill the conspiracy theories promoted by some, is the wrong path for hunters to take and erodes credibility on the topics.

But, such facts and examples do not feed the hyperbole of the GreenDecoy sharks, so that kind of stuff will never be mentioned. Rather the false BS will be promoted against these groups, hurting the bigger cause.

This is just my personal opinion and maybe a suggestion for the NM/AZ guys in the wolf issue. I think Stoney loses credibility when he goes out of his way to regurgitate the kind of crap in that GreenDecoy farce. I feel the same about any other group who uses the GreenDecoy junk without looking at the facts/history and questioning the people/motives involved in the smear campaign it represents.

I would suggest the effort would be better served if it was focused on the screwball/wingnut groups who are against common sense; against those who want to change the original goal lines via friendly Federal courts. I would suggest not wasting energy on attacking groups who supported state control of wolves, as did the groups being hammered in the GreenDecoy report. The battle will be long and difficult; not made any easier by creating enemies among those dedicated hunters who could be your allies.

Carry on ....

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-14 AT 09:28PM (MST)[p]BigFin,

Those are 2 great replies, you have a lot of patience when surrounded by the uninformed. I'm sure a majority of your posts will sail right over many heads.

I find it truly amazing, and quite disheartening at the same time, that anyone would fall for the wolf lies of lobowatch, biggameforever, saveelk.org, etc. Even more so with the greendecoys lies. It gets old, and I lack patience.

If supposed "hunters" can believe that stuff, I also fear for the future of Wildlife and hunting. More to fear from that than any wolf...and by a landslide.

On the positive side, the right people are in the arena...and at the end of the day, thats really all that matters.
 
Buzz,

I too find rather disheartening to read your constant attacks on fellow hunters and sportsmen... Your right about collectively "us" being in trouble... Especially with your style of helping the cause!!!!!!!!!
 
Wolfhunter,

I agree, I constantly attack you and stoney with facts.

Its hardly fair.

If you think your SSS every wolf because wolves ate all the elk "cause" is something I want to help...you're sadly mistaken.

If you want to have a sane discussion about proper game management, without you trashing biologists, Game and Fish Departments, blaming predators for everything, etc.

I'll discuss that anytime...
 
7129pictures.jpg


left to right: Scott Christie-Trout Unlimited, Josh Coursey-Muley Fanatics Foundation, Steve Kilpatrick-Wyoming Wildlife Federation, Governor Matt Mead, Matthew Copeland-National Wildlife Federation, Neil Thagard-Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, Buzz Hettick-Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Mike Porter-Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation, not pictured Kim Floyd-Wyoming Federation Of Union Sportsmen, Steve Martin-Bowhunters of Wyoming, Colton Sasser-Hunting with Heroes.

You can't put me into the SSS camp Mr. Buzz.

Big Fin Randy,

I have been deeply involved in this arena for many more years than I care to think about and am still very actively involved in the fight.

I take exception to your throwing me into the green monster bus or whatever you were referring to. I do my own thinking and my own research and have never heard of Lobo Watch or the many supposed racial groups on the right that Buzz keeps referring to.

What I do know is fact Buzz and Randy, is that the NWF while being more involved in wildlife conservation issues and are not nearly as left wing radical as the Biological Diversity Center and Wild Earth Guardians, they are still a very left green leaning organization . I have fought the NMWF folks for years over many issues and now those old school WF members are mostly gone and have been replaced by a professional staff of 6 full time employees whom are very professional and paid well and this just happened probably less than 10 years ago. Where did they suddenly get all of this money to support a full time staff of six lobbying for their mostly radical ideas. You may have guessed, Grant Money from the likes of the Ted Turner Endangered Species fund, Pew Charitable and a few other giant radical environmental behemoths that we all are fighting. The Ted Turner Endangered Species funding is the primary source of revenues for the implementation of all of the wolf restoration projects in the west.

It is a well know fact that the founder of the TRWC was from the Turner monster.

Trout Unlimited, it is a given fact they are no longer and haven't been for many many years a grassroots of average fishermen. They have morphed into another left wing radical environmental organization.

Randy if you want to figure out whom the major player is just look no further than the Ted Turner Foundation and their money and lobbying efforts.

Let me be very plain, I do think the state WF's and like minded organizations contribute tremendously to our cause and I applaud them for that, but they don't need to try and make us think they haven't been instrumental in backing and supporting much of what has come down the pike in the many radical environmental issues that are effecting our goal of good wildlife and fishery management.

Randy and Buzz I did not fall off the turnup truck yesterday. I have been in the trenches and fighting for what is fair and right for all sportsmen and wildlife conservationists for most of my almost 70 years. I spend 3 months in a sleeping bag out in the wilderness areas of the SW every year and have a keen sense of observation in the out of doors, but lest you think I haven't been in the environmental and political issues just as much, think again. I will swap my credentials with either of you two gentlemen any day of the week.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-14 AT 07:49AM (MST)[p]Big Fin and BuzzH---It appears to be an absolute waste of time to state facts when you're dealing with these people, one of whom is of the obvious SSS mentality when it comes to wolves and anyone, who like myself or the two of you, that don't go along with his agenda are considered anti-hunters, pro wolf activists, etc. Posting up facts as you two do in either one of your two different styles, but saying the same essential things, is obviously not being listened to or absorbed when WF just keeps coming back with the same old posts. As BuzzH mentioned, when a logical discussion is attempted all you get from WH is attacks and "everything is screwed up because of biologists and all the other "gubment" employees who don't do or know squat". When you have a person with that attitude and a closed mind to anything that contradicts their philosophies, there isn't much you can say or do that isn't just a waste of your time. Now the next post we'll read will probably be another one attacking me with his "lapdog" comments because I happen to agree with facts that BuzzH and you state all the time, rather than a bunch of baloney that he spews avery time he makes a post!

PS: BuzzH--Nice picture he posted there in the Governor's Office with you and a lot of others who are trying to make a real difference for habitat and critters throughout the North American continent---thanks for all of your time and efforts spent in the behalf of all sportspersons.

PPS: If the poster hasn't heard of that looney "Lobo Watch" bunch, I wonder just how much he's really been involved in the wolf issue over the years, but who knows!
 
Stoney, not sure where you thought I was throwing you under any bus. Many of your quotes, example provided below, make it seem you want more enemies and fewer allies. Go for it, it that is your strategy.

"Trout Unlimited, it is a given fact they are no longer and haven't been for many many years a grassroots of average fishermen. They have morphed into another left wing radical environmental organization."

Evidently you don't travel to some of the same public meetings I do and see their grassroots guys driving 250 miles to provide comment on fishing regulations, to support public access, to improve water quality, etc. In my state, TU has a local fundrasing banquet in every town that can support such. They spend a lot of those funds protecting stream access for the average guy to take his kids fishing.

Feel free to lump TU, and others, into your vision of vast conspirators. That is your right.

Some may take your word as "given facts" or "it is a well known fact" to support the conclusions you draw on groups, people, and issues. When someone says "given fact" or "well known fact," experience shows me they have no facts readily available and such conclusion it is usually an opinion supported by little or no facts.

My point of interjecting in this thread was; some seem hell-bent on making a very difficult challenge even more difficult by attacking many who have supported state control of wolves. If the battle ahead is not daunting enough, I guess it is the right of anyone to go and create more adversaries to their efforts.

You live and hunt in an amazing part of the world. I hope we can still say that 20 years from now. I wish you the best of luck in the challenge you face.

Carry on ........

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Topgun,

I have been involved heavily in the SW Mexican Wolf fiasco. We do observe how ever what was and is taking place up to the north.

The idea of posting the picture is to prove that what most state WF's deny time after time is that they are different then their parent organization. They are just a generic do gooder conservation organization that doesn't follow the NWF. Wrong! If you will notice the picture of Matthew Copeland of the National Wildlife Federation. Why do they deny their involvement with the parent green to the gills organization.

I'm sorry to inform you Topgun but the NWF is pro wolf and they cover it by saying well it is part of the NAMWC mission to have all predators and all species on equal value as a cat, a rat, a dog a snail or a human being.

I'm even more sorry to announce to you that humans are the #1 predator and since the European settlement and with more and more people moving into the habitat in the west and everywhere else you have too much human presence to bring back the wolves into much of the west unless you go the route of the Wildlands Project and move the people back out of the rural areas so that they can attain their goal of no humans allowed in the Sky Island wilderness areas and only limited human use in the connecting corridor. The Gila Wilderness and surrounding Aldo Leopold Wilderness and surrounding Gila/Apache National forest is their primary objective to undo our custom, culture and economy.

Whom do you think are now chanting the same rhetoric about corridor areas and connectivity? It is not only the Biological Diversity Center and Wild Earth Guardians it is coming more and more from these supposed innocent sounding in name conservation organizations whom have been vitally involved in bringing the wolves back to the lower western US.

I have been very involved over the years opposing the WF's here in NM and they are worse than ever in their green agenda. What a bunch of knotheads.

Again I applaud all the good work the WF's are doing and admire them for that but that doesn't make their base core philosophy any easier to accept.
 
It's important to vet any conservation organization you're thinking of supporting. As an example, when I was heavily into backpacking, back in the 60's-70's (I still am actually), I joined the Sierra Club thinking we shared the same interests and ideas about keeping our Wilderness areas. I think we did in the beginning, as I thought it was a backpacking club.

After I joined they became more radical every year. They became concerned with (what they thought) was too much human traffic in the Wilderness. Some of the upper echelon members were appalled to actually see human boot tracks when they visited. Their idea for Wilderness leaned toward very little or no human activity.

I dropped them like a hot rock. I don't know whatever became of them, or even if they exist today, but if they do, I don't think we have the same vision.

Eel
 
Randy,

I had a lengthy reply to respond to your comments and lost it. I will try to reformulate it later today. Thanks for your moderating this discussion. I am far from through on the issue though.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-14
>AT 08:29?PM (MST)
>
>
>Keep them as close as possible
>to the minimum numbers required
>to keep them off the
>list.
>
>Do that via State Management plans...by
>hunting, trapping, and any other
>methods outlined in the State
>Plans.

Who disagrees with this plan?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-14 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]Big Fin,

You of all people should realize or be more aware of what is going on in the big picture (scheme) of things with the wolf propagation both the Rocky Mountain and Mexican gray wolves.

The United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is required to propagate the species under The Endangered Species Act. They have a mission as well as a goal to do so. The wolves are a surrogate species , while glamorous, enchanting, and were in few numbers in the lower 48 states, they were never endangered. Pretty much the opposite.

The USFWS was being coached and advised by The Conservation Breeding Specialist Group/International Union for Conservation of Nature. (SSC/IUCN. this a very huge conglomeration of conservationists world wide. With their vision for world wide species recovery or proliferation either real or imagined and in the case of the Lower 48 of the US it was a matter of returning this majestic creature to a place of recognition and prominence in the western US in particular and not so much in the northern tier where the wolves were already increasing in annual numbers.

This world wide group has participated in the USFWS efforts from day one. Now enter the Ted Turner Endangered Species fund along with their main man Mike Phillips, CBSG Team member/scientific reviewer or short for Ted Turners main wolf biologist. Now also enter Dr. Paul Pacquet, CBSG team member and professor at a Canadian University. ( He has a vry sordid reputation)

The initial ground work for the Mexican Gray wolf population segment and the original Environmental Impact Studies were done and the BRWRA was established with the primary recovery zone in Eastern Arizona and the secondary recovery area in the Gila in western New Mexico.

Before this undertaking the Rocky Mountain Wolf proliferation project was put into play and the resulting importation of Canadian wolves into Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. This program got off to a flying start and the imported Canadian wolf population exploded with the resulting clash with the ungulates and livestock taking initial and continuing huge hits.

Put the two together and you have the above huge movement pushing and promoting these time changing events.

Now comes the necessary support besides the ever present Biological Diversity Center and The Wild Earth Guardian and those rabid litigious extremist groups forcing the USFWS's hand at every turn, with lawsuit after lawsuit.

The USFWS then was in so deep and the program was losing steam so the USFWS used the conservation groups such as the Wildlife Federation groups and the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership group among other conservation group to more or less be cheer leaders and boots on the ground to try to soften the blow to the affected rural areas and their economies. Through out the early days and after the huge declines in some of the elk herds in the wolf areas the program was rapidly gaining steam and wolf numbers skyrocketed. Enter the States rights issue and the promise to turn wolf management back to the individual state Game Dept.'s. The state WF's and the NWF were the prime movers and shakers involved to make the wolf program more compatible with the affected citizens and were actually and admittedly pro wolf and they used the North American Wildlife Conservation ethic to backup their pro wolf stance as they claimed and maybe rightfully so, wolves needed a place back in the natural order of things.

These groups and especially the WF folks were at the table to gain the wolf removal from the Endangered Species Act. They then worked hard to assure the state's got the right to manage the wolves by establishing hunting and trapping seasons to try to control the exploding population of wolves.

Now back to Dr. Paul Pacquet and Mike Phillips. These two presumed wildlife/wolf experts had a very intimate hand in the wolf proliferation all the way through both wolf programs. These individuals were very pro wolf and very biased. Together these scientists along with the CBSG directing or advising the USFWS and along with the cheerleaders for wolves were the state WF's and the NWF. The USFWS used the WF folks to help them implement the success of the programs.

Now enter the other moderate to radical conservatists like TU and TRWCP among others and you now have a tremendous resource of man power and money to do the moving and shaking necessary to make the proliferation a success.

Through out the process the Wildlife Federation folks helped and supported the wolf proliferation.

Now for you to try and pooh poo their involvement and give BuzzH a pass and a pat on the back, maybe Buzz should explain why he supports and supported the WF in their pro wolf stance and actions that have caused such a tremendous upheaval of the western way of life.

Also Fin why do you try to castigate me in trying to bring out the whole story and not just , well we were in the battle for States Rights. That is the two words that come out of Buzz's mouth in heaping and copious amounts. State's rights were needed and the eventual control back to the state wildlife agencies but the fox in the hen house was the WF and Mr Buzzy himself and he keeps rubber arming until his back must surely be bloody and in fact he either knowingly or unintentionally wanted wolves all along.

I still maintain and can provide facts but it is really pretty obvious that the radical conservationist actions the Wildlife Federation people promote are the cause of much misery and consternation to most consumptive users of the public lands and other lands.

They promote their radical brand of conservationism into the average public hunter and with their propaganda machine have swayed many into their radical movement for some purposes at least.

We have fought long and hard against their radical agenda in New Mexico and have witnessed it in several of the states north of us. These people are not very popular at the Game Dept. meetings here and never have been,and for very good reasons, too numerous to mention now.

I don't want to divide the support we need from everybody involved in defending against the animal rightists but many of us have drawn a big line in the sand and the Wildlife Federation is on the other side of the line. So be!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-14 AT 09:50PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

Those are what you call "facts". Providing some kind, any kind, of fact would be the first one you've ever brought to the wolf discussion.

You sound like a lobbyist for Biggame forever or lobowatch, not like someone that was actually involved with wolf reintroduction.

I suggest you bow out of this one big-boy...you're wayyy over your head.
 
Stoney, I'm plenty informed on most things related to wolves in the Northern Rockies and the history of how we got there. But, feel free to lecture me where you feel I am lacking.

I didn't "castigate" you in my posts and if you got that impression, that was not the purpose. I pointed out some facts to counter what was posted, then gave some suggestions that I thought would help, based on my experience here in the Northern Rockies. If you find those facts and that suggestion as castigation, not much I can do about that.

I am plenty versed in the Northern Rockies wolf issue. I have only watched the Mexican Gray Wolf issue from afar, reading what I can of that situation, and talking to some hunters/biologist/agencies involved in Arizona, so I am not informed enough to comment on the history of that effort. I will leave that to guys like you who are living there and involved up to your eye balls.

You seem to feel fully informed about the history and facts related to the Northern Rockies wolf discussion. Maybe you were here in those discussions for the last 20 years and I never got a chance to meet you. I doubt that is the case, but I guess it could be so.

I can tell you that most of what you posted here about the history of the Northern Rockies wolf reintroduction is laughable to any person who has been heavily involved from the start. I could pick it apart, point by point, but I will spare the folks here, as they have read about wolf issues for the last many years. I have read some of your past posts in other threads about your supposed knowledge of what happened in the Northern Rockies and most of those are equally askew with the history of what really transpired.

I hope the information you are getting/using to formulate strategy about the Mexican Wolf issue is more accurate and reliable information than what you have been provided in regards to the Northern Rockies wolf history.

Again, I wish you the best of luck. I hope you and others can keep the Mexican Wolf reintroduction within the boundaries and numbers that were agreed to in the original reintroduction.

Carry on.....

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
wolfhunter said: " Buzz,

I too find rather disheartening to read your constant attacks on fellow hunters and sportsmen... Your right about collectively "us" being in trouble... Especially with your style of helping the cause!!!!!!!!! "

Are you for real dude? See post #7 above and tell me if that's not the pot calling the kettle black.

Here don't bother I brought it down: wolfhunter said:" Hey Buzz looks like Stoney has you pegged AGAIN!!!

I bet your buddy 4100fps is part of MWF too! His hate for other sportsman, ranchers and outfitters is endless...above and tell me if that's not the pot calling the kettle black.

Feel free to post up anywhere on the net were I said I hate sportsman, or ranchers. I'll save you the time, you can't and you won't. Didn't happen.

Is there anything you understand?

We get it, you can't find game so you hate wolves, and point fingers at those of us who still find an elk in wolf country.

Your a real uniter of sportsman.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Big Fin and BuzzH,

I make no apologies for what I have stated and maybe I'm not up on all of the nuances of the Northern Rockies wolf proliferation but let me tell you this, I have a lot of connections and people in the hunting world up there who keep me informed.

I have several clients and friend from the wolf areas whom have been vitally affected. Two of my good clients are retired USFWS Jackson Elk Refuge Managers whom have hunted with me a few times. One of those fellows served with me judging the World Elk Bugling Championship for several years at the RMEF and Ronn Dube whom was moderator for this annual event is a friend and I knew his operation pretty well and Colby Gines and his lovely wife, daughter of Jake Clark whom took over Ron's operation. I personally know many outfitters in the three state region up there whom tell me what is going on.

We had Ken Sinay owner of the largest wolf eco tourism business in Yellowstone and a rancher from up there came down and talk to us about the wolf program up there. Ken informed me on a personal e-mail that the eco revenues will never replace his lost hunting revenues, although it looks like he has really expanded his eco business and is probably doing alright.

I'm almost 70 years young and spend 90 nights in a sleeping bag out in one or the other of the wilderness areas down here in NM and AZ and am pretty observant and learn everyday from the environment out there. I also have been in the natural resource area for many years and have observed much over the years and am still learning. I have served and still serve on many elected and voluntary positions relating to the natural resource arena.

I am presently the SW Director of the NM Council of Outfitters and Guides, Outfitter Director for the AZ/NM Coalition of Counties, Chairman of the Wildlife Committee for the Catron County,NM Comprehensive Land Use Plan, past president of the Gila National Forest Livestock Grazing Permittees Association,. Past President Catron County Farm & Livestock Bureau, past 12 year State Board NM Farm & Livestock Bureau member, member on the Gila National Forest Elk/Livestock Task Force and many more organizations and associations to help protect our way of life here.

I guess I am guilty of not being able to express my self and be able to present the facts due primarily knowing they do exist but don't have the time or patience to dig them up for you two gentleman.

No Buzz I'm not in over my head. I know way more about your Northern Rockies wolf proliferation efforts and especially the connections and how they effect the still endangered wolf hybrid dog we have here and how they are exacting a huge toll on our livestock and elk herds here.

No fellars it is what it is, and the NWF and it's states affiliates are guilty as charged!

I being a professional outfitter in the business now for almost thirty years have a wilderness pack string hunting and summer pack trip operation, operating in primarily NM but in AZ also. I will put my string up agaisnt anyone in theworld and they are my priode and joy. I don't own an atv and don't ever plan to. I am vitally involved in the industry and in helping protect my neighbors whom own the small businesses in the small communities here. I have personally sat down on numerous occasions with the old NMWF members trying to persuade them to change their minds on a number of import resources issues and to no avail.

No Mr. Buzz you are on the wrong side of the line in the sand, many of us on our side have drawn. We will work hard to try and come to some consensus on different issues but diabolically we are two very different breeds.

My reasons for this thread is to warn the unsuspecting of the dangers that lurk out there in the natural resource areana.
 
Wow stoney, you have a lot of connections and are fully involved in the wolf issue, but in two long posts you haven't stated one single fact to back up anything you've posted! It's very obvious to see that with what you say your business is that you have more than a slanted view and maybe that's all you think you need to prove you're correct in your statements. However Sir, that is not how a debate works and without anything to back yourself up other than to say who you know, what your profession is and that you sleep under the stars several months a year doesn't quite get it done! Good luck though, as I do know that you're in a great area that I've enjoyed being in several times in my lifetime on hunting and fishing trips, one just as recently as 2010.
 
Topgun,

Tell me exactly what you want the facts on and I will tell you what I know from my research efforts, while providing references and factual substantiation.
 
Buzz,

Now some of the top "Wolf Scientists" are waking up....


Top Wolf Scientist Charges Wolf Researchers Have Become Advocates Rather Than Scientists
by George Dovel

During a May 7, 2010 Boise State University Radio interview, Idaho Fish and Game Predator Biologist Dr. Hilary Cooley stated emphatically that wolves ? not hunters ? are necessary to manage elk herds.
Speaking with authority, as if she were part of a team of scientists whose research prompted her statements, Cooley stated:
?We saw this in Yellowstone ? when we had tons and tons of elk they could change the entire landscape. We saw songbird densities changing, we saw beaver populations changing ? everything responds to that and so while some people like to have high, high densities of ungulates, it's not always good for the rest of the ecosystem.?
What Cooley was referring to are the alleged ?trophic cascades? that many ecologists and most conservation biologists now claim are the stabilizing benefits provided to ecosystems by wolves and other top predators. The basic theory is that the top predator (wolf) reduces the number and/or alters the habits of its prey (elk), which provides more habitat for other species such as beaver, song birds and smaller predators.
This revival of the ?Balance of Nature? myth promoted by Durward Allen and his graduate student David Mech in their 1963 National Geographic article, began when Robert Payne coined ?keystone species? in 1969 and ?trophic cascades? in 1980.
In 1985 Mech Admitted Balance-of-Nature is a Myth
Meanwhile after several more years of research with wolves and moose on Isle Royale and wolves and deer in Minnesota, Mech found that his ?balance-of-nature claim had zero validity. Both wolves and their prey were in a constant state of changing from population peaks to radical declines, yet Mech waited until 1985 to publish the truth about what was occurring in both states but with different prey species.
And instead of publishing the correction in National Geographic or major news media ? or at least in scientific journals ? Mech?s startling confession that he was the cause of the balance-of-nature myth appeared only in National Wildlife Vol. 23, No. 1, and in the May 1985 Alaska Magazine. In that article titled, ?How Delicate is the Balance of Nature,? Mech wrote, ?Far from being ?balanced,? ratios of wolves and prey animals can fluctuate wildly ? and sometimes catastrophically.?
Several years later, I photocopied the article, including its B&W and color photos, and sent it to the leadership of all 27 organizations in the Idaho Shooting Sports Alliance. But those groups were understandably still so upset with IDFG for letting half of Idaho?s mule deer and thousands of elk die from malnutrition during the 1992-93 winter, they failed to even consider what would happen with wolves 10-20 years down the road.
Misleading Headline: ?Wolves Not Guilty?
Because the National Wildlife Federation was promoting wolf recovery, and Mech?s 1985 article emphasized the need to control wolves to prevent the radical swings in populations, his choice of magazines was perhaps understandable. Canadian wolf transplants into Idaho and Wyoming (YNP) would not happen for another 10 years, but the biologists promoting wolves were enlisting all the help they could get from environmental activists to lessen public resistance to restoring wolves.
Twenty years later, Mech?s team of student Yellowstone Park researchers (wolf advocates) issued a news release with the headline, ?Wolves Not Guilty,? saying their unfinished research revealed that bears were the major predator of newborn elk and moose calves.
When the study was finally completed, Mech explained that bears killing most newborn elk or moose calves had been documented for several decades. But based on the volume of mail I received from Alaskans who read the ?Not Guilty? article, it was too late to change their new opinion that wolves had been wrongly accused of killing elk and moose.
Mech 2008 Testimony Refuted DOW Claims
Mech has always recognized the necessity for state wildlife managers to control wolves that adversely impact either livestock or game populations. And when Defenders of Wildlife and 11 other preservationist groups sued FWS to shut down wolf hunting in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, Mech?s May 9, 2008 22-page testimony destroyed every one of their arguments.
The non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that federal and state wolf promoters have ?been in bed with? for several decades, now oppose the same recovery plans they helped design during the early 1980s. They have parlayed wolf recovery into a never-ending billion-dollar enterprise, and used tainted science and activist judges to support their destructive agenda.
Mech realized that the states? failure to control wolves to numbers that are biologically sustainable has generated extreme opposition to their very existence in the areas where they are causing problems. The difference between the make-believe world of indoctrinated biologists like Hilary Cooley, and the real world where wolves eventually destroy the wild prey necessary to sustain their numbers, caused Mech to take drastic action in 2011.
On Oct. 26, 2011, Mech submitted an article to the editor of Biological Conservation titled, ?Is science in danger of sanctifying the wolf.? He also sent copies to eight wolf scientists for review and suggestions, and on Feb. 29, 2012, the slightly amended article was submitted to Biological Conservation and was accepted for publication on March 12, 2012.
In his article, just before he dropped his bombshell on wolf preservationists who falsely promote the image of the wolf as a saint, Mech mentioned that North America?s wildlife manager, Aldo Leopold, continued to recommend bounties on wolves in 1946 to increase abundance of big game populations. Leopold also warned that extermination of large predators could result in over-browsing.
Propaganda Changed Wolf Image from Devil to Saint
But in 1967 the wolf was listed as endangered and one of the most effective propaganda campaigns of all time began. Mech points out that the image of the wolf changed from a devil to a saint and wolf advocates began to claim that the wolves? presence was vital to restore healthy ?native? ecosystems.
He said that his library has more than 30 books written about wolves and that 27 NGOs have been formed to promote wolf preservation. One of Mech?s reviewers commented on the millions of dollars raised by these groups, and could have commented on the dollars many of them receive for reimbursement of legal fees from the feds each time they sue to halt delisting or hunting.
Mech also said that a large number of researchers have invaded Yellowstone Park with the intention of proving the existence of trophic cascades caused by wolves. Yet he asserts there is not even one YNP study with evidence proving that a cascade actually took place beyond the wolf and its prey.
For example he says the claim that wolves would kill most of the coyotes and replace them with smaller predators has not happened. Instead, after the initial coyote decline they have repopulated the Park with the same number of coyote packs.
Do Wolf Kills Really Benefit Scavengers?
According to Mech the claim that wolves benefit other scavengers by providing more kills ignores the fact that wolves consume most of the prey they kill. If the prey animal died from other causes, the scavengers would have 7-10 times as much meat as is available from a wolf kill.
And he reminds us that as the wolves kill more of the available prey, the scavengers have fewer ? not more ? animals available for food.
What Really Caused the Restoration of Beavers
Similarly, the claim that wolves killing the elk and/or creating a ?landscape of fear? would reduce elk depredation on willows and aspen, which would cascade to restoring beavers, which would, in turn, raise the water table has been highly advertised ? but it has never been proved according to Mech.
He points out the reality that there were no beavers in the Northern Range of YNP when wolves were introduced in 1995. He responded to recent unsupported claims that wolves caused beavers to return to the Northern Range and raise the water table with the following excerpt from a recent study:
?What has had little publicity, however, was that the rapid re-occupation of the Northern Range with persistent beaver colonies, especially along Slough Creek, occurred because Tyers of the Gallatin National Forest released 129 beavers in drainages north of the park.?
Mech referred to other research pointing out that the combination of these beaver colonizing in the Park and raising the water table, and a reported 27-day addition to the YNP growing season, were valid reasons for increased growth and height of willows, and aspen. ?It should be clear from the above examples that sweeping, definitive claims about wolf effects on ecosystems are premature whether made by the public or by scientists? said Mech.
Mech continued, ?Once findings claiming wolf-caused trophic cascades were published, scientists competed to find more. Teams from several universities and agencies swarmed National Parks and churned out masses of papers, most of them drawing conclusions that wolf advocates considered positive toward the wolf.?
He explained that after synthesizing 19 chapters of reviews relating to the ecological role of large carnivores in 2005, a research team concluded, ?Scientists will likely never be able to reliably predict cascading impacts on bio-diversity other than prey.? Mech continued, ?As one reviewer of this article put it, ecologists (and particularly conservation biologists) do seem obsessed to the point of blindness with predator-induced trophic cascades.?
The extreme bias of their studies is reflected in Mech?s comment that the only wolf study results he can recall that might be considered negative by the public is the 2003 Idaho study by Oakleaf et al who found that in central Idaho, ranchers discovered only one of eight calves that were killed by wolves. That study gained little popular press.
Although Mech candidly named several wolf scientists whose research reports are tainted by their ?wolf is a saint? agenda, his closing comments reflect his own agenda. ?National Parks are protected from most hunting and trapping, logging, grazing, agriculture, irrigation, predator control, pest management, human habitation, and mining, all of which wreak pervasive, long-term effects on ecosystems.? (emphasis added)
By the time tens of thousands of young biologists and journalists and a hundred million other youngsters have spent 80% of their lives being taught that all human activity destroys healthy ecosystems, they believe that starvation, cannibalism and widespread disease make up a ?healthy? ecosystem. Is this the legacy you want to leave to future generations ? or are you just too ?busy? to care?
 
>Topgun,
>
>Tell me exactly what you want
>the facts on and I
>will tell you what I
>know from my research efforts,
>while providing references and factual
>substantiation.
>
>


Stoney,

I think Topgun needs to check with Buzz first to make sure he is authorized to ask those kind of questions..... Topgun has not presented one fact that he did not get from Buzz's posts. Hence the name "Lap Dog"!!!!

Stoney thank you for presenting your side of the story from New Mexico... very important for people to see all sides!!!!!
 
BuzzH---You got your post up before I could with the same reaction I had, LOL! That last post by WH was a real winner and sure tells a lot about how he has to grope for anything to post that would remotely prove his point. As far as stoney, it's obvious with his very slanted viewpoints due to his profession that it's useless to discuss things with him too.Now he says he will come up with facts if I make a reply. My reply is to answer everything with facts that's already been discussed because we haven't heard one fact yet.
 
He does write a compelling fictional rendition of what's really going on.

He's just a notch above Toby Bridges at Lobo watch.





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-14 AT 11:11PM (MST)[p]Soo what your saying is you jokers support the ?trophic cascades? effect in yellowstone, ID, WY & MT??? You guys really believe that wolves are a benefit to the ecosystem. You guys believe that wolves are doing a better job than hunters at game management... Or your just attacking the author? Because he is not in the establishment??? Or he is telling lies??? Which is it??? Who is lying???? Or David Mech is lying what is it?

Topgun you had better wait for Buzz I don't want you to form an independent thought!!!
 
Wolfhunter,

These guys and even Big Fin don't want to hear the truth, it hurts to have the lowly likes of us and especially me being a 5th generation cattle rancher whom doesn't own a cow and now a professional wilderness outfitter for almost thirty years, whom have been trampled on for years by these green groups and their big money machines supporting their every move in the wolf restoration proliferation travesty, that is causing so much misery, pain and havoc among the rural people whom have to live with the sons a bitches. These guys are green to the gills and when you call them out on it they scream bloody murder that they are the true sportsmen and they hunt wolves, and they do this and they do that and they live by the God Almighty NAMWC and exalt it upon a pedestal, then they turn around and say well only the resident sportsmen should have the lions share of the hunting licenses. But if you look on any WF web site and on the TRWC web site and on the Arizona Game & Fish Dept. website and on the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation website they all proclaim that the wildlife belong to the public! It doesn't say to the citizens of that particular state. It plainly states the wildlife belong to the public. I know of the several lawsuits that basically gives the states' management of the wildlife for the citizens of that state. Well boys where do you think most of the wildlife spend a great deal of time, on private and federal lands. And to think you still want unfettered access to all lands no matter the ownership to hunt "your wildlife".

Sure these big so called conservation organizations and especially the Wildlife Federation do a lot of wonderful and needed conservation projects and especially in the individual states, and they raise oh ever so much money to pump back into the states to promote their radical green conservation agendas at the same time. Wolves were and have been on the top of their list and the WF 's can take their fair share of the responsibility for this great catastrophe taking place, where here to fore, the ecosystem was doing just fine without the wolves. We already had a very effective predation team of lions, bears and coyotes to do nature's bidding. But no that is not good enough, we have all of the bed wetting, bunny hugging, tree hugging, animal rightists forcing and shoving this all down our throats and then we have guys like Buzz and his ilk actually promoting and enabling the whole program from the get go. Then they take pride in their picture with WY Gov. Mead and say looky here boys what we have done. We made those damn ole ranchers and nasty outfitters whom make their living off of "our" wildlife suffer. Well boys you are doing a good job of it. We however are not going to roll over or lay down and quit. We will keep up the fight against the WF's and the other green so called sportsmen groups.

Wolfhunter, These little greenies don't want to hear the truth from George Dovel and Valerius Geist and Bridges and the other true conservationists because it exposes them for what they really are and now go back to the title of this thread: Hunters Beware!

This is exactly what is happening to hundreds of regular joe sportsmen in every state. God if they would just wake up. The WF folks have a hell of a propaganda machine going though and they suck these unsuspecting souls into their venus flytraps and spiderwebs.

Wolfhunter how dare you quote George Dovel or Mech or anybody who has a lick of sense around Buzz and his little people. It exposes them for whom they really are.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 06:41AM (MST)[p]>Topgun, Big Fin, boys and girls,

>Read and weep!


***FYI the first two links didn't even work and the third is as laughable as you and your lack of facts comments. You and WH ought to get married, as you make a real good couple with your "kill every wolf" philosophy that will never happen! I doubt that you'll find anyone on the Forums that is happy about the number of wolves in many areas and most, including BuzzH, BigFin, and myself would be happy at a chance to wack one any chance we get.
 
Topgun,

I don't know the MM site well enough as I am having trouble bringing up the TU and TRCP sites. Go to www.activistcash.com and check out TU and TRCP.

I have never advocated a "kill every wolf policy" or a SSS policy. You can't accuse me of that.

Buzz, you and a couple of more keep referring to my comments and observations as laughable.

Well sir the people whom are most affected by this momentous and forever life changing wreck of a so called conservation program, aren't laughing.

I would really like to come up and hunt some of your wolves and will if I get the chance. It will be many years before we can ever hunt the wolves down here.
 
Only one? If some of you were as absolute about our U S Constitution as you are NAMWC we may not have this ridiculous "hippie animal love situations."
This next question I admit is off he wall...Buzz and Topgun, would you mount your wolf if you ever did happen to whack one? Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 08:15AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 08:13?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 08:09?AM (MST)

Hey Buzz,

Remember when I said hunting will never give us the necessary control of wolves??? Wolves were going to become to hard to kill with traditional management....

Well the wolves are proving me RIGHT and you WRONG!!...already!!!

[www.idahoforwildlife.com/component/content/article/2-content/43-sun-valley-wolf-hunt]

www.idahoforwildlife.com/component/content/article/2-content/43-sun-valley-wolf-hunt
 
>Topgun,
>
>I don't know the MM site
>well enough as I am
>having trouble bringing up the
>TU and TRCP sites. Go
>to www.activistcash.com and check out
>TU and TRCP.
>
>I have never advocated a "kill
>every wolf policy" or a
>SSS policy. You can't accuse
>me of that.
>
>Buzz, you and a couple of
>more keep referring to my
>comments and observations as laughable.
>
>
>Well sir the people whom are
>most affected by this momentous
>and forever life changing wreck
>of a so called conservation
>program, aren't laughing.
>
>I would really like to come
>up and hunt some of
>your wolves and will if
>I get the chance. It
>will be many years before
>we can ever hunt the
>wolves down here.


***I hate to use the word "laughable" again, but if that's another place you're getting your "facts" from it certainly is! It would seenm that with your rants about wolves that you donl;t want any, so I'm sorry if I labeled you improperly. What is your philosophy on them then, as it would seem you don't want any from reading your rants so far on here?

YBO---What has your question about mounting a wolf got to do with this thread because it is certainly off the wall as you stated? Since I don't look at them as a trophy animal like maybe some do, I guess I would have to answer no even though I don't know why you asked.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 08:37AM (MST)[p]Hey Buzz,
>
>Remember when I said hunting will
>never give us the necessary
>control of wolves??? Wolves
>were going to become to
>hard to kill with traditional
>management....
>
>Well the wolves are proving me
>RIGHT and you WRONG!!...already!!!
>
>link:www.idahoforwildlife.com/component/content/article/2-content/43-sun-valley-wolf-hunt

***If you two yahoos are going to provide links in your posts, it would sure be nice if they worked because this one doesn't either! Where did you ever see me or BuzzH say that hunting was going to control wolves and get them down to the level they need to be? You can sure come up with some real BS and I believe trapping was another method that was agreed upon in more than one thread where numbers were discussed. Trapping will probably be needed in many areas to have any chance to get them at the levels they need to be so that the ungulate population can begin recovering in areas where they are low. Are you a licensed trapper using that method to get the wolves in your area under control or just relying on your hunting skills that you constantly talk about to get the job done?

EDIT: I see you fixed the link while I was posting. The link shows that wolves are very smart, which will make them harder to hunt as time goes by and I don't believe anybody has ever said anything different. In fact, our discussions in the past on MM and HuntTalk threads have stated exactly that! Additionally, we have even mentioned that it will take aerial gunning under certain circumstances (ie. domestic animal depredation), but there is no way that legal poisoning will ever be allowed like 1080 was for varmint control in the West years ago.
 
Here is Buzz's exact words:

We're managing wolves just like we manage lion, bears, furbearers, etc.

WTF more do you want?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14
>AT 08:15?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14
>AT 08:13?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14
>AT 08:09?AM (MST)
>
>Hey Buzz,
>
>Remember when I said hunting will
>never give us the necessary
>control of wolves??? Wolves
>were going to become to
>hard to kill with traditional
>management....
>
>Well the wolves are proving me
>RIGHT and you WRONG!!...already!!!
>
>[www.idahoforwildlife.com/component/content/article/2-content/43-sun-valley-wolf-hunt]
>
>www.idahoforwildlife.com/component/content/article/2-content/43-sun-valley-wolf-hunt


Idaho has killed 250+ wolves this season with hunting/trapping with one month of season left. If you count fish and game's kills, the total number killed will likely exceed 300. Idaho's wolf numbers have been going down each year since hunting started. Idaho's wolves peaked in the 850 range and are now under 600. If you want to kill a wolf in Idaho, you better do it in the next few years. They're going to be hard to find once they get below 500.
 
I'm thinking of joining National Wildlife Federation. I'll be better able to make a decision when I can get a complete detailed accounting of every penny they bring in, and where every penny is spent.(kind of like SFW).

As near as I can tell they have revenue of about $93,000,000. One of their expenses is listed as "Support Services" totaling $19,650,000. That's a little disturbing. We'll see.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]Seriously wolfhunter, one smart wolf tells the whole story for you. Pointing to one animal that might or might not of got away, as proof wolves are getting smarter and not getting killed is just plain stupid. Look at the data before making such an ignorant post.

As other posts have shown, we are moving the wolf numbers down, and at quit a fast pace. From 1800 a few years ago to 1300 last year. This year might end up under a thousand.

Wyoming is getting close enough to the trigger number to make me nervous. Idaho just coughed up $2 million for wolf removal, after a big year by WS. They just killed another 23 by aerial gunning in theLolo zone.

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_d6596c99-c103-58b8-b5a0-2bb22a7a82ec.html

It would be refreshing if either wolfhunter or stoney posted a link that came from a reliable source supporting what they claim.

Links to notorious anti wolf sites discredit everything you have to say.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
4100fps,

Kind like how your posts show your true color...when you demonize every Rancher, Outfitter, SFW, IFW and other sportsmen member.... Who do you stand with 4100fps.
 
>Here is Buzz's exact words:
>
>We're managing wolves just like we
>manage lion, bears, furbearers, etc.
>
>
>WTF more do you want?

***More than that because you must not have one firing brain cell, as BuzzH would say, if you can't figure out what that simple sentence means! Lions and bears are run with dogs in many areas where it's legal. Bears are baited in many areas, but it's illegal in others and some places don't allow baiting or running with dogs. Many areas have limits of how many and of what sex can be taken and a season closes when it's met. Furbearers are hunted and trapped where it's legal as a part of game management stategy. What part of any of that don't you understand to come up with that one sentence to say you're right and he's wrong?!
 
4100fps: "It would be refreshing if either wolfhunter or stoney posted a link that came from a reliable source supporting what they claim".

***That would be nice, but impossible, because their claims are so far off that all they can do is grope for links like they keep coming up with, LOL!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 12:09PM (MST)[p]Wolfhunter--I haven't heard 4100 demonize these things?
I do though, all of the SWF org, quite a few public land ranchers and sheep herders, lots of outfitters too, I don't know who IFW is but I imagine they are crap since your mentioning them.

One time I would like you to address the Montana cow elk hunts and the elks over objective status? everyone has mentioned it, but you won't answer?
Who caused that and why? and shall we sleep with the same people?

I guess we should divide outdoors groups in two? I choose to stick with "Back country hunters and anglers" and "trout unlimited", but maybe you can join the "Me myself and I organization", and " I make money off the publics land LLC. "
 
I think it is kind of ridiculous to see you jokers embrace the wolf over Ranchers, Outfitters, SFW, IFW and now cow elk hunters. You find fault in anyone who makes a living off of public lands. So much in fighting. I guess this is real proof in the end we are all going to lose. Are you guys so blind you can not see this for your own selfishness. Your like a load sheep headed to the slaughter house...
 
Another thing that is laughable about you "Sheep" You guys or Sheep idolize Buzz.... Buzz and the USFS has probably done more damage to habitat in the form of fire suppression than all the ranchers combined... But you give the USFS a pass!! But hey at least Buzz sounds good when he fills the room with smoke!!!
 
4100fps, piper,topgun, buzzh, big fin

Go to www.The Center for Consumer Freedom.com which is the non-profit organization that puts out the www.activistcash.com that document very acurately and fairly where TU and TRCP get their funding. Truth hurts doesn't it guys?

Now if you will only read this and comprehend what and who support these organization and their definite ties to the ultra liberal green radical wing of the environmental movement.

You can whine all you want 4100fps but the truth hurts and it is really a dose of reality for any sane person whom really wants to know what is driving these crazy so called endangered species programs.

You can argue all you want on how the in place wolf hunts and control measures are working, which is great, but we should never have had them to start with.

My position on wolves has been stated very plainly in two or three of my posts. I believe wolves are a neat species and they have a place in the environment that is conducive to supporting wolves. Canada, Alaska, Russian and many other world wide remote habitats with ample prey base are where they belong. They don't belong or contribute to the natural order of things in the populous areas with limited prey base and with not enough depopulated and remote wilderness areas.

The European settlement has populated most of the lower 48 and humans are the supreme predator so unless you take out the human element (hunters) there is not enough space or prey base in enough unfettered habitat to support wolves.

Of course the animal rightists would like all hunting stopped and the wolf to take back over as the #1 predator.

The WF's, TU and TRCP all have more ties and monetary support of the animal rightists than they do the hunters.

Hunters Beware! There is a much bigger enemy out there than all of our pro hunting organizations support and monetary benefactors put together, by a not even close margin.

Big Fin went to a TU meeting once he said and was really impressed with what they told him at that meeting but Fin never bothered to dig in to see what their real mission is. It is not what the organization was founded on in it's infancy. It was hi jacked many years ago. We see their NM chapter trying to intervene here in NM all the time. They are nothing more, nothing less than a liberal radical green environmental organization. Period! You can take that to the bank, sonny boy 4100fps.

Oh I forgot everything my side brings forth is just unfounded rhetoric by the damned old consumptive, extractive industry that you seem to think are reaping the public land. Get a life! Get over it dude you are bat terd crazy and have your noggin up your patooty very deep, where the sun can't reach.
 
>I think it is kind of
>ridiculous to see you jokers
>embrace the wolf over Ranchers,
>Outfitters, SFW, IFW and now
>cow elk hunters.
>You find fault in anyone
>who makes a living off
>of public lands. So
>much in fighting. I
>guess this is real proof
>in the end we are
>all going to lose.
>Are you guys so blind
>you can not see this
>for your own selfishness.
>Your like a load sheep
>headed to the slaughter house...
>


***Nobody is "embracing" the wolf over anything or everything else and it appears that if everybody doesn't agree with every single thing you post that they are sheep, antis on this or that, or pro wolf advocates because we're trying to work within the existing system that just maybe none of us prefer, but have to live with, etc. It's more like you're the blind one that keeps ranting and not coming up with anything positive to accomplish what you want.
 
>Another thing that is laughable about
>you "Sheep" You guys or
>Sheep idolize Buzz.... Buzz and
>the USFS has probably done
>more damage to habitat in
>the form of fire suppression
>than all the ranchers combined...
> But you give the
>USFS a pass!! But hey
>at least Buzz sounds good
>when he fills the room
>with smoke!!!


***Oh, so now because certain people happen to agree with someone else's perspectives other than yours we idolize the guy! What a bunch of bull cookies you keep spewing in your rants! Now you're talking about something completely different that we've never discussed and tossing us all in as sheep on that when you don't know a fuggin thing or have a clue how each of us feels about the workings of the USFS. Get a life man and quit blaming everything on everyone else but yourself!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]4100fps, piper,topgun, buzzh, big fin
>
>Go to www.The Center for Consumer
>Freedom.com which is the non-profit
>organization that puts out the
>www.activistcash.com that document very acurately
>and fairly where TU and
>TRCP get their funding. Truth
>hurts doesn't it guys?
>
>Now if you will only read
>this and comprehend what and
>who support these organization and
>their definite ties to the
>ultra liberal green radical wing
>of the environmental movement.
>
>You can whine all you want
>4100fps but the truth hurts
>and it is really a
>dose of reality for any
>sane person whom really wants
>to know what is driving
>these crazy so called endangered
>species programs.
>
>You can argue all you want
>on how the in place
>wolf hunts and control measures
>are working, which is great,
>but we should never have
>had them to start with.
>
>
>My position on wolves has been
>stated very plainly in two
>or three of my posts.
>I believe wolves are a
>neat species and they have
>a place in the environment
>that is conducive to supporting
>wolves. Canada, Alaska, Russian and
>many other world wide remote
>habitats with ample prey base
> are where they belong.
>They don't belong or contribute
>to the natural order of
>things in the populous areas
>with limited prey base and
>with not enough depopulated and
>remote wilderness areas.
>
>The European settlement has populated most
>of the lower 48 and
>humans are the supreme predator
>so unless you take out
>the human element (hunters) there
>is not enough space or
>prey base in enough unfettered
>habitat to support wolves.
>
>Of course the animal rightists would
>like all hunting stopped and
>the wolf to take back
>over as the #1 predator.
>
>
>The WF's, TU and TRCP all
>have more ties and monetary
>support of the animal rightists
>than they do the hunters.
>
>
>Hunters Beware! There is a much
>bigger enemy out there than
>all of our pro hunting
>organizations support and monetary benefactors
> put together, by a
>not even close margin.
>
>Big Fin went to a TU
>meeting once he said and
>was really impressed with what
>they told him at that
>meeting but Fin never bothered
>to dig in to see
>what their real mission is.
>It is not what the
>organization was founded on in
>it's infancy. It was hi
>jacked many years ago. We
>see their NM chapter trying
>to intervene here in NM
>all the time. They are
>nothing more, nothing less than
>a liberal radical green environmental
>organization. Period! You can take
>that to the bank, sonny
>boy 4100fps.
>
>Oh I forgot everything my side
>brings forth is just unfounded
>rhetoric by the damned old
>consumptive, extractive industry that you
>seem to think are reaping
>the public land. Get a
>life! Get over it dude
>you are bat terd crazy
>and have your noggin up
>your patooty very deep, where
>the sun can't reach.


***Take your tinfoil hat off and come into the real world stoney! Maybe wolves should have never been introduced and I don't think many, if any, on here would argue with you on that. They were and that's a fact. We know who led the charge to do it and there were'nt enough interested people at the time to get involved and stop the introduction. I'm just as much at fault as you and any of the rest of us that may now be bitching about what is happening in areas where they are overpopulated and sat on our azz and let it happen. We were a day late and a dollar short, but finally many people worked together to fight the pro wolf activists to get the wolf delisted. Now with the states under control at least we have a chance of reducing their population down to acceptable levels that have been agreed to and that's as good as you and wolfhunter will see happen, so get over it and get on with life. Lumping all this other stuff you keep spouting about and blaming all of us is also not going to get you anywhere. Lastly, I did go to that other website to see what was running that group in the link you posted when you first put it up. There is nothing there to make me believe that they know anything more to say they are right about what they write, but you did find one group that agrees with you. Saying that what they write is fact is another whole matter and using them that way just because they agree with your stance doesn't cut it. Their view is very slanted that way on every group that I read about from their perspective and I read at least a half dozen different reviews they gave on different organizations in addition to the ones you asked us to look at.
 
http://www.bermanexposed.org/facts

Here there's pages on this fraud. He's the one that started the group you posted for facts.

A little advice. If you don't know the group your using as "FACTS" you should try and do a search first on those people that started the group and why. Google this:
"
Who's behind Center for Consumer Freedom"

Put any group your looking to see the light on and go with it.

Even the sportsmens groups you think are "GREEN"





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
4100fps,

Go back again and reed Berman's history and motives and whom he is fighting for and against.

Do you realize he is exposing the so called watch dog groups that he has absolutely hammered and for good reason. The Humane Society of the United States HSUS, and the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals PETA.

These two groups alone are your, mine and every single hunter on this planet's biggest enemy.

You my friend should wake up and smell the roses for Christ Sakes!

Your liberal so called conservation organizations are responsible for this mess they have caused.

Now you back them by saying they were responsible for the delisting and the resulting States Management. Well again my simple minded benevolent groupie, the rest of us weren't asleep at the switch, we were bowled over by the billions of dollars spent by the Pew, Turner and Joyce Foundations among many other ultra far left monies supporting their believe that the American west's public land management should be turned upside down and all of the consumptive users thrown out and purged of the poison to their alter, mother earth. Enter the Spotted owl, it exacted a death toll to logging on federal lands. Enter the Spike Dace Loach Minnow, the Willow Fly Catcher, the Goshawk, the Chiricahua Spotted Leopard Frog, the Jumping Meadow Mouse and the common sage chicken and most importantly the Wolf proliferation projects, all designed to rid the mother earth Federal Managed lands of these vermin and scum. Public lands ranchers are the primary goal of many of these species. Wake up sonny they don't want hunter's either.

Now enter people like you 4100fps, and they have the perfect storm and the way to drive the final nail in the coffin. Well Mr. smarty pants thank you for nothing. Thank you for aiding and abetting the movement. Any state management programs in place are superficial and while helping to abate the severity of the programs, are still just putting a band aid on the problem. For you to support these radical environmental groups makes you no better than an original Earth First card carrying member.

Senator Martin Heinrich D NM newly elected to represent our State
is a card carrying member, but NM voted for Obummer both times so you know Albuquerque and Santa Fe liberals out vote and control all politics in NM. We are in deep doo doo down here. Then take Sen. Udall, related to the old bastard Interior Secretary Moe Udall whom was almost as bad as AZ's own son Bruce Babbitt. All worthless no good liberal enemies of the public land management and it's multiple use, sustainable yielding policies. No wonder the west is in the toilet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]stoney,

All I can say is you continue to post ZERO facts on the wolf issue or any other land management issues.

All you've proven is that you're capable of a lot of ranting, raving, and nothing more.

It does serve a couple purposes, keeps you out of the arenas where the rubber really hits the road, and gives a great boost to tinfoil manufacturing, bunkers, and black helicopters.

The issues are being taken care of by those in the middle, not guys like you on the lunatic fringe. Thats the way its always been, and always will be. Those with a moderate view of things get things done, always have.

Good luck on your endeavor to end States rights on wolf management, big-game license distribution, ending the ESA, and opening up the west for your Manifest Destiny ideals.

You're doing "great"...
 
Dude, the guy makes millions running interference for the Tobacco industries, Fast food industries, etc. He has a 3+ million dollar home he paid cash for.

Your exactly what he's hoping for. SFW and groups like his preys on people like you.

Although well meaning you might be, your so far right everyone's green.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Buzz,

Our side is dedicated to preserving the western environment. this is for our custom, culture and economic well being. We work tirelessly to combat the anti's and for you to claim your so called middle of the road folks whom are saving the planet well stay on your self indulgent, ignorant, chest beating and proclaimed champion of "the cause" that will save us all. Wrong my friend it is you whom are wearing not a tin foil hat but a dunce cap!

Resume ignoring the real world out here for your fluffy rose garden patch of tulips. You dance so nicely to the green pipers tune.

All you have done Buzzy is prop up the failed social readjustment programs of your WF's, TU's and other fronts you use to cover your real beliefs and philosophy. Work hard Buzz as I know you will because you are pretty big around from drinking all of the green koolaid. Keep up you charade at least you have four or five like minded individuals supporting your failed green mission. But come to think of it maybe you guys don't realize you are supporting the people whom want our demise? For a seemingly smart men you guys at times don't appear to have the first clue.

Accuse me of what ever or however but I have many years in the trenches fighting against ignorance of the likes of you sheeple.
 
I have been working in Idaho and out of the loop. I see that stoney and wolfhunter plus a few others haven't learned anything. mtmuley
 
It's pretty plain you can't change the minds of your types and persuasions.

I run into that all the time with the progressive liberals and the radical enviros, such as Michael Robinson Wolf person for the Biological Diversity Center. Now he is a piece of work. That man would love to have you join him. You all think a whole lot like him.

No matter I would rather be right even far right, than to be in your collective states of mindless denial.

You know one fact I have observed over the years, is that I have guided a lot of non resident hunters from every corner of the US to Canada and beyond and even the guys from the liberal state of CA and I have never ever had a liberal type hunter. They have all been good conservative people. Amazing, liberals are not serious hunters or not hunters at all.

I honestly don't know what winds your clocks.

One of MM posters I think have you guys pegged the best of all though and he should know as he was part of the ranks of two different state's WF's. He said and I quote " They were the most inept, misguided environmentalistic, cowardly, gutless, indecisive hunters and fishermen I've ever associated with."

You claim to be hunters and conservationists so be it, carry on boys. Keep drinking the green koolaid!

The only facts that I know for sure I have seen your types in action for many years. Nothing changes with you all. Put that fact in your little black books.

For some more facts check out the Turner Foundation and the Turner Endangered Species Fund. It is the most invasive and oppressive of all of them. He makes the Koch brothers look like penny ante poker players. Mogul Ted T is the radical environmentalists best friend.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 07:25PM (MST)[p]I'm going to come right out and say it because with that last post I've now read enough of your BS to say that YOU ARE NUTS!!!
 
stoney, move on to a place where you will be listened to. Most of us here are intelligent enough to see through the bull. Guys like you are the real threat to hunting. mtmuley
 
Funny stuff, Stoney. Not sure why you feel the need to call me out in every post. I was truly wishing you good luck. Oh well, I will play your game one more time.

Since I am entertained by what you write and your responses, I am going to add some thoughts here that I suspect will show people just how crazy it is to connect dots in some long-drawn abstract association; to rely on DC insiders for your quotes on wolves and wildlife issues; and then wrap it all up in some big conspiracy within in the hunting community, as you have.

Your statements and links above come from Washington DC lobbyists. Evidently you think they know what is really going on, and what really went on, with regard to wolves. Feel free to continue relying on the DC lobbyists. Having no use for DC lobbyist or spoonfeeding from the Johnny Come Lately guys at SFW/BGF, I will use a different approach for my attempt at humor that will follow.

I will continue to get my facts from being there, involving myself in the issues, and working to see that states get to manage wolves according to what was promised them almost two decades ago. All I provide in this little point of humor is based on FACT.

Now for my side of the entertainment, though I am not sure it can top the comedy you have provided. I provide some ironic FACTS that you may not find as humorous as I do, given your stated approval of all things SFW and outfitters, added to your stated hatred for Ted Turner and your adamant belief that it is fair to connect dots, however distant, to paint the picture of vast conspiracies.

Remember, this is all fact here. Not making it up; not a single bit of it. None of this is from a DC lobbyist, rather from looking out my window at one of Ted Turner's ranches to the south of me and attending many meetings that involved the people who are part of this scenario.

A couple rhetorical questions to frame the topic.

> Fair to say you hate Ted Turner and his method of operation, right?

> Fair to say you think Ted Turner and his friends are a big part of the reason we have wolves in the Northern Rockies and why you are engaged in the same struggle with the Mexican Gray Wolf, right? Seems that way from what you have posted.

> Fair to say you are a supporter of SFW and their approach to wildlife politics, right?

> Fair to say you think outfitters are good guys, providing a good service, right? I think they are mostly good guys and provide a good service.

> Fair to say you think wolves should be hunted and you probably have no use for people who are "in bed with" those who those who are funding this Mexican Gray wolf war, right?

> I don't think I am going out on a limb to say that you judge people by who they associate with, especially if they are in direct financial relationships, right?

If you deny that last question/comment, then the entire premise of your conspiracy theories in this thread would come unwound, so I think we can all agree with that assumption based on your comments herein.

Before I continue, I hope you will let me know if I am off base on any of my premises stated above. I doubt I am.

(To be continued)

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I will always be thankful for the pew foundation, they put a lot of money and effort into getting wilderness laws passed in Nevada.
Future hunters will be even more thankful.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]Well, Stoney, since you haven't denied my assumptions above, I will continue with this strange and comical set of FACTS, especially funny when considered in the context of your conspiracies. I think all following this thread would agree my statements, posed as questions, above are probably correct.

Now, for the full picture.

Given how Turner is funding all those greeny groups you are worried about, don't you, as an outfitter, find it ironic that outfitters are climbing over themselves to lease Ted Turner's hunting?

Why would these outfitters be in such a big hurry to jump in the sack with the fattest wallet in the greeny world, the Mouth of the South himself, Ted Turner?

What would you think of an outfitter who leases all of the hunting on Ted Turner's big Montana ranches? Let's face it, choosing to build your livelihood on a partnership with Ol'd Ted is a very direct connection.

Say it ain't so, Stoney. Tell us that outfitters are not going to associate with Ted Turner, in Montana, or New Mexico, or in all these other states where Turner owns so much land.

From all your rambling about secret dealings and financial relationships, you aren't going to let a two decades and cumulative millions of outfitter dollar get paid to Ol' Ted without speaking up, are you? I'm sure a Ted-hater such as you is not going to do business with a wolf-lover like Turner, nor tolerate those in your outfitter ranks who do, especially a relationship of that size.

And now, it gets even better.

Wouldn't you find it even more ironic that the outfitter who leases all of Turner's Montana properties is in the leadership of the MT-SFW chapter, is the President of the Montana Outfitter and Guides Association (MOGA), and is a "Friend of Don's," regularly hanging out with the big brass of the SFW office in Utah?

And if things weren't bad enough, imagine the fact that Turner does not let anyone, not even the outfitters and their clients, shoot wolves on his property. Imagine what that results in.

I can tell you the result. It results in a sanctuary for a huge population of wolves, completely off limits to us who want to hunt wolves and get their numbers lower. The largest wolf sanctuary outside of Yellowstone National Park.

Do you find it disturbing that a big-time SFW guy, one of the biggest outfitters in the west, currently President of MOGA, would lease the hunting from the guy you SFW supporters hate so bad, Ted Turner, and in doing so, he directly participates in and helps fund a situation that provides for one of the biggest pro-wolf sanctuaries in the Northern Rockies; that sanctuary found on the Ted Turner properties?

Given how you like to connect some pretty long-distance dots with the drivel provided by a bunch of DC lobbyists, I will ask you straight-up.....

What's your thought on an SFW guy, an outfitter, leader of a state outfitter association, "in the sack" with your beloved Ted Turner when it comes to a big dollar hunting operation that helps fund a wolf sanctuary situation?

You gonna just let that big ripe one sit there without taking up arms, or you gonna continue hammering the little guys who are just looking for a place to hunt wolves on public land?

If you let that one go untouched, you might want to pack up you keyboard and find a new place to warn us of ourselves.

Maybe you think sixth-generation dots connected by DC lobbyists are more worrisome to your cause when it is the average guy fighting for state control of wolves, than when it is one of your own who is making his livelihood at the pleasure of the guy you despise so greatly, Ted Turner.

I have just connected those dots for you and there are only two dots to connect - an outfitter who is part of your SFW brass, and Ted Turner. These are facts and if you need them provide in internet links, I can provide it all to you.

This is not a series of fuzzy rumors connected by some DC lobbyist, rather a direct relationship connected by a wolf hunter who lives right here, knows all the people involved, and will be hunting south of that Turner ranch in the -20F windchill tomorrow morning, hoping one of the wolves protected by Turner and SFW leaves the sanctuary and steps in front of my bullet.

What say you, Stoney?

While the rest of us are rolling on the floor laughing at how well you set yourself up with your "connect the dots" and "color by number" conspiracies, please, tell us what you think of that one.

Come on, let's hear it.

We would love to hear your thoughts about a direct long-term financial partnership such as one of your SFW-officer outfitters "tipping the glass" with Ted Turner. Who is drinking whose Kool-aid?

Even you have to admit that is a tough one to wade through, given you feel compelled to warn all of us ignorant serfs about supposed espionage within the hunting community that has been whispered to you by the DC lobbyists who are pissed that we aren't going to let their clients steal/sell our public lands.

Stoney, you there? Stay with us big guy. Oh oh, I think he just choked on something.

Dang, Stoney. I had decided to sit down and read this entertaining thread after checking my traps today, only to find all of your posts asking me to engage with you in conversation. With this post, I oblige your request.

Personally, I don't care what Turner does with his property. In America, private landowners can do as they please.

I personally have no concern that an outfitter leases from Turner, even if he is SFW brass and MOGA leadership. He is doing a good job, or Turner wouldn't have him there. He is managing for old age classes and some of those bulls come onto the public land where they get shot by regular Joes. He is trying to make a living. I know the outfitter personally, and though we have had differences before, I think he is an astute business guy. I saw him last week where we talked about game management and he asked me how the wolf hunting was going.

I suspect a guy who connects dots like you do is not rolling on the floor at this time, laughing at the irony, as the rest of us are.

Point of this example being, your connection of far-removed dots and making your claims against good people who have fought for years to get state control of wolves only serves to reduce your credibility, what little is left following your posts here. If I were not so charitable, and not in such good humor at the thought of shooting a Turner-hosted wolf tomorrow morning, you could have easily been sized for a 4XL.

Again, I wish you the best of luck.

Carry on .....



"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Mr. Newberg,

First of all I have no connections to SFW, never have, never will and I don't even know much about them other than the rants I read here on MM and Bowsite.

I don't know anything about the MOGA or it's President and his leasing TT's Montana ranch. I do know something about his three huge ranches in NM and what he does with them.

My whole purpose is not to castigate you and the others whom have worked and are still working hard to correct a bad situation. I'm not accusing you or Buzz or anyone of not being heavily involved in this whole mess.

What I do try to bring out is where this whole damn mess started from, and you guys scream bloody murder because I am pointing out the facts that these radical green organizations were part and parcel of putting this terrible experiment into play in the Northern Rockies and the SW.

I might come off strong against some of you personally at times but that is only because you fail to connect your own dots up the ladder to the mother ship, i.e. NWF, TU and TRCP and othe green leaning groups.

That said, these moderate conservation groups do huge amounts of good conservation and habitat work and I congratulate Buzz, you and the others here that work so hard in very good causes and all of you have worked tirelessly to mitigate the wolf fiasco and etc. Thanks guys for being there and working so hard these last few years to try and make a bad situation better. You are getting some big success in controlling wolf number.

But that doesn't change the "fact", now everybody laugh, that these conservation groups used green money from day one to foist the wolf program on the western US. Ted Turner was the lead and Pew and the others opened up their purses big time to ensure an eventual defeat of the natural resource user crowd on the public land.

What my interests here gentlemen, are the protection of the way of life, custom , culture and economic well being of the rural communities whom depend on the natural resource for our survival and quality of life.

If that is wrong and I am wrong headed, so be it! I put my whole inner being and upbringing from my very roots into my passion of protecting the out of doors and its creatures.
My great granddad, John Franklin Bird, guided Teddy Roosevelt in Yampa, Colorado in 1899 for mule deer. My family on both sides were homesteaders in the upper Yampa Valley south of Steamboat Springs and I spent my first 30 years there hunting, fishing and packing into the Flattops Wilderness . I have spent my last 40 years here in the SW packing, hunting, fishing into the Gila, Aldo, and Blue Wilderness areas.

My packstring and good mountain horses enable me to go further and into the rougher parts of these beautiful wilderness areas. I am a simple man, but a very passionate man, and I don't make much money and I don't do many hunts out on the roads as I hate and despise four wheelers and never have or never will own one.

Don't try to come back on me for what I do or believe in and throw some strange monkey on my back Mr. Newberg when I don't even have a remote connection to your mythical dots you think I should be responsible for.

Carry on Mr Newberg, you are a good man and don't ever let anybody tell you different. I can watch you on your shows and get a good feel on how dedicated and passionate you are about hunting and the out of doors.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 06:19AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 06:17?AM (MST)

BuzzH,

I truly apologize to you in my many posts that may have offended you.

You are truly a unique and dedicated individual whom has done more than most to protect what you truly believe in. You are a mover and a shaker and I admire your tenacity and dedication to protecting the industry, hunting, fishing and recreation and conservation standards that affect all of us sportsmen.

Keep up your good works and tireless dedication to your beliefs. I really have to admire your ability and connections to try and do what is right for the average sportsmen of the US and world.

4100fps, mtmuley, topgun, piper,

You guys are doing your part also and are just as dedicated as any of us to do what you believe in. I can't fault you guys for that. Thank you for your service and dedication to do what is right for all of us in this leaky boat.

Carry on with your individual and cooperative efforts and hard work in making our western landscape a better place for all citizens.

I am also dedicated to the cause and am doing everything in my power to make it a fair and equal situation for all sportsmen.

I may not always express myself in a clear and perfect way and I will try to do a better job of explaining my beliefs, just as you do yours.

Thanks guys!
 
Buzz,

What did you do to Stoney??? Did you send some pipe swinging brothers over to his house to bring him around to your way of thinking???? That was a complete turn around...
 
wolfhunter, stoney said more in that post than you will ever comprehend. We are all in this, just in different ways. mtmuley
 
Wolfhunter,

Not a turn around just trying to mitigate the situation. These guys have yet to acknowledge just how radical the green groups are that they belong to and evidently revere. No matter how hard I try can get them to even begin to understand my side. All I get is a bunch of lip.

I don't think it was doing any good to convince them other wise. I know the NMWF members are equally sincere in their liberal radical organization and you can't talk to them either. Its almost a complete waste of time. I guess all you can do is give them all atta boys and tell them to get after it.They are still in the minority and they know it. The NMWF guys are always bitching about the Cattle Grower/Outfitter strong lobby in Santa Fe, and the only thing they have going for them is the majority in the Legislature are democratic (socialists) liberals.

Live and let live. But that doesn't stop me from from fighting the ways of the WF and especially in NM where they are well monied and organized and will be back in next years legislature we are almost certain to try and do away with any advantage the non resident hunter has over their hollowed ground that the wildlife belongs to the citizens of their state. NMWF is going for a flat 90/10 so all non residents take heed and come support our side against these selfish resident WF and UBNM hunters.

Buzz took advantage of the good deal non resident hunters have in NM with all Oryx, Ibex and Bighorn sheep being wide open to all citizens. He drew a coveted White Sands Missile Range Oryx once in a life time tag hunt, this winter and killed a great oryx. But he sure doesn't want the non residents having only a meager amount of tags in his home state of MT and present residence in WY. Hypocracy at its finest!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 06:08PM (MST)[p]>wolfhunter, stoney said more in that
>post than you will ever
>comprehend. We are all in
>this, just in different ways.
>mtmuley


+1 However, now his post to Wolfhunter that would have been much better done by a PM seems to have come full circle and is pretty hypocritical!
 
Stoney,

You should really take Randy's post seriously...pretty tough to deny anything in his post.

As far as you claiming that the groups you've been trashing being "green"...thats just flat not true.

You act as if the leadership of TU, TRCP, BHA, state WF's, etc. belong to PETA and want to take your firearms away.

Thats just not reality. The guys that make up the leadership of the various groups I've been around in MT, WY, CO, etc. are very passionate and accomplished hunters/fishermen/outdoorsmen. They want science based management of our wildlife resources, want secure habitat, and want hunting to continue and stay within reach of the average hunter.

For example, you posted a picture in this thread of members of several groups meeting with Governor Mead in Wyoming. Do you even know what we were talking about in that meeting?

What we were looking for support of 2 bills that we introduced to help alleviate some of the strain on the WYGF budget. Specifically looking for a 10% fee increase (first fee increase since 2008), and for WYGF employee health benefits to be paid from general fund money and also general fund money to manage grizzly bears.

In that meeting with Governor Mead, he agreed to support and sign either bill if it crossed his desk. Further, he also asked us for a couple things as well. He asked us to support the wildlife trust and ask the Legislsture to continue to fund it. The goal is to have 200 million in that trust eventually.

In further discussions, we also got Governor Mead to speak on behalf of wildife, its importance to the people of Wyoming, as well as the need for funding it in his "state of the State" address.

That group you see in that photo, got SF45 passed just last week...resulting in 7 million in funding to the WYGF from the general fund. The WYGF employees health benefits are now being paid from the general fund, and another 2 million in general fund money will go to fund grizzly bear research. Beings how the GF employees are the only State employees who's insurance was not paid from general funds, it seems well past...long overdue. The 2 million for Griz management is also well past overdue as well, since hunters license dollars have paid 35 million on griz management.

That is hardly the work of a bunch of no-hunting, wolf loving, hippies. Thats the work of hunters...period.

Finally, as to your comments about my drawing an oryx tag, its not my fault NM has chosen to allow NR's to apply on equal footing with Residents. Frankly, the state of N. Mexico and its hunters have the absolute right to decide how they want to share their tags with NR's. I think its ridiculous for them to not limit NR's to a percentage of sheep, oryx, ibex, etc. They do it with elk, deer, and pronghorn...not sure why they dont on the other species.

I also dont believe that NR's should ever be on equal footing with Residents in regard to tags, and they arent in most states. Where those animals live in regard to private, federal, or state lands holds NO bearing on the situation.

What I am against is any type of outfitter sponsored tags, transferable landowner tags, etc. Lots of reasons why I dont, and will never, support those types of tag set asides. Also, why I feel NM is the biggest goat-rope of a state when it comes to tag allocations in the U.S.

Its hardly a consulation prize that NR's are on equal footing for a few hundred oryx, ibex, and sheep tags when DIY NR hunters are completely trashed on the elk, deer, and pronghorn tags.

Finally, you can continue to carry on with slamming groups that are getting things done...by people that live, eat, and sleep hunting and the associated issues. At the end of the day, those guys you are choosing to trash are making a difference and getting things done. Get used to it.
 
Buzz,

You are a politically smart man.

Go back to the picture of different groups meeting with Wyoming governor Mead.

Scott Christie-Trout Unlimited
Steve Kilpatrick-Wyoming Wildlife Federation
Matthew Copeland-National Wildlife Federation
Neil Thagard-Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership

These four groups are very well funded with almost unlimited monies granted to them from the Pew, Joyce, and Turner Foundations. These foundations are historically on the green side of conservation and promote many projects that are contrary to our western culture and way of life.

My ties are to conservative conservation measures.

Governor Mead is no dummy. He is conscious of the huge money and power these liberal green groups bring to the political arena in Wyoming.

Your Back Country Hunters and Anglers and your Wyoming Sportsmen Alliance as well as probably Muley Fanatics Foundation and the Bowhunters of Wyoming are more than likely very good and respected organizations. No doubt in my mind that you are using the above four green groups to shirt tail on, to get many of your wanted and needed projects completed.

Your state sportsmen and angler organizations are very wise in aligning yourselves with them to gain many political victories.

Does that make you all bad, no, but maybe you are also guilty of guilt by association.

As far as Randy's rant on me, well I didn't expect a man of his reputation to stoop so low to accuse me of being aligned with the seemingly errant President of the MOGA and his ties to Turner. Also his accusing me of being aligned with SFW is totally off the wall as I have no connections or anything to do with that group and don't plan on it. That is a whole nother argument.

Slam me where you can, but you Buzz, and Randy, get your facts straight. I have been accused from day one of not presenting any facts.
 
>Buzz,
>
>You are a politically smart man.
>
>
>Go back to the picture of
>different groups meeting with Wyoming
>governor Mead.
>
>Scott Christie-Trout Unlimited
>Steve Kilpatrick-Wyoming Wildlife Federation
>Matthew Copeland-National Wildlife Federation
>Neil Thagard-Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership
>
>These four groups are very well
>funded with almost unlimited monies
>granted to them from the
>Pew, Joyce, and Turner Foundations.
>These foundations are historically on
>the green side of conservation
>and promote many projects that
>are contrary to our western
>culture and way of life.
>
>
>My ties are to conservative conservation
>measures.
>
>Governor Mead is no dummy. He
>is conscious of the huge
>money and power these liberal
>green groups bring to the
>political arena in Wyoming.
>
>Your Back Country Hunters and Anglers
>and your Wyoming Sportsmen Alliance
>as well as probably Muley
>Fanatics Foundation and the Bowhunters
>of Wyoming are more than
>likely very good and respected
>organizations. No doubt in my
>mind that you are using
>the above four green groups
>to shirt tail on, to
>get many of your wanted
>and needed projects completed.
>
>Your state sportsmen and angler organizations
>are very wise in aligning
>yourselves with them to gain
>many political victories.
>
>Does that make you all bad,
>no, but maybe you are
>also guilty of guilt by
>association.
>
>As far as Randy's rant on
>me, well I didn't expect
>a man of his reputation
>to stoop so low to
>accuse me of being aligned
>with the seemingly errant President
>of the MOGA and his
>ties to Turner. Also his
>accusing me of being aligned
>with SFW is totally off
>the wall as I have
>no connections or anything to
>do with that group and
>don't plan on it. That
>is a whole nother argument.
>
>
>Slam me where you can, but
>you Buzz, and Randy, get
>your facts straight. I have
>been accused from day one
>of not presenting any facts.


***You get your panties in a wad when someone accuses you of being aligned with certains factions and say it's not fact, but then come right back with your "greenie" rants that are accusing us of being in bed with groups that will diminish or end your lifestyle that have not been backed up with one single fact! You obviously have a very slanted view on things, but that doesn't make you right, especially when you can't come up with anything other than conjecture about various groups in your posts. You might want to go back and reread that post you made last night thanking all of us and the groups we may or may not be affiliated with that are in the trenches getting the job done because the only "green" that's involved is the money being used to accomplish the goals of those organizations. You, yourself stated those are worthwhile goals, so quit being so hypocritical when none of us are trying to jeopardize or eliminate your way of life!
 
My ties are to conservative conservation
>measures.

What might that be, and what org? Tie's mean your affiliated somehow.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Stoney posted "As far as Randy's rant on me, well I didn't expect a man of his reputation to stoop so low to accuse me of being aligned with the seemingly errant President of the MOGA and his ties to Turner. Also his accusing me of being aligned with SFW is totally off the wall as I have no connections or anything to do with that group and don't plan on it."

Stoney, that was not a "rant." I did not "accuse" you of being officially "aligned with" any of those groups, rather used those who make positive reference to in your posts here, and elsewhere.

Evidently I did not do a very good job of painting the picture in a way I hoped you would see it. And, my attempt to use humor as a way of making contrasts was lost on you.

My point was this.

You are going after a lot of good people who were the guys in the trenches on wolves and many other topics, seemingly because you believe some DC lobbyist and you want to categorize people into groups you can label and hate, rather than look at the individuals involved and the work they are doing for hunters. In effect, you are falling into the DC mash pit way of thinking that makes us feel good because we can lump people into groups and it is much easier to hate groups than the people themselves. It is your right to believe what you want and form opinions based on whatever information you choose to believe.

I was showing you that as much as you want to connect some hard working volunteers to supposed green groups, with Ted Turner being your most favored green target, a more direct case exists via a trail of facts (not DC innuendo) that can connect groups you support, are proud to be a part of (outfitters) or seem to agree with, to the same person you hate, Ted Turner.

I used that example to try show you how foolish it is to label everyone you don't like or are frustrated with. In the process of categorizing and labeling, a lot of good folks get lumped into your categories and labels. Often, those people have been, and can be, your ally in the current cause, in this case, state control over wolf management.

Point is, if you think hunters should be so worried about relationships of those you claim to dislike, Ted Turner et al, it is hypocritical to warn hunters of those people, and using your method, the groups those people belong to, who are doing business with Ted Turner.

Seems if you want to hammer guys working on state wolf control because they are a member of TRCP, or BHA, or their state Wildlife Federation, due to your long path of connecting them to green money, then you should also hammer outfitters and their state associations for the fact that their members are making a livelihood from business deals with Ted Turner.

To hammer one group based on your conspiracy connections and not hammer the other groups for actual business connections is hypocritical. Thus, my disagreement with your approach to labeling and categorizing.

I doubt very few hold the outfitters in contempt for making their livelihoods from deals with green landowners. For note, Ted Turner is just one of the many "greeny" landowners in my state who lease to outfitters. Yet, seems you struggle to see both sides of that coin.

I would suggest your cause of keeping the Mexican wolf issue confined to the original agreement would be better served by looking at the people who can help you, rather than labeling and categorizing them. I would argue that attacking people, as you have done when you started this thread and your subsequent posts herein, is counter-productive to your long-term goals.

And, for you to look the other way when you are shown direct financial relationships between the "green machines" and groups you are part of or supportive of, is a hard hit to your credbility on any of these topics.

That was the purpose of my posts. I was trying to do it in humor, as I suspect if all of us sat around a campfire at Pelona or Beaverhead or in Cooney Prairie, we would all have a good time, probably offer to help each other on hunts, and lend our effort to the causes we all share - state control of wildlife (including wolves).

If I could suggest an idea, it would be that you tell us where things are at in the ever-changing situation of the Mexican Wolf, then tell us where we can help to keep this deal confined to what was originally promised. Most guys I know would gladly write an email, make a phone call, attend a meeting (if possible) or whatever could help you with that effort.

But, if you want to call them a bunch of greenies and discount the work those individuals did to finally accomplish state wolf control in MT/ID/WY, then odds are your calls for help might go unanswered.

Since I belong to none of the groups you are worried about, maybe you would feel comfortable sending me a PM to let me know how I can help.

Best of luck.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
>I thought stoney finally figured out
>we are on the same
>side. Man was I wrong.
>mtmuley


***Yep,see my post #83 in case you missed it after I did an edit/rewrite when I saw his reply to WH!
 
I will try and make it simple,

What is the National Wildlife Federation's policy now and what was it before the wolf proliferation? Pro wolf all the way. Were they instrumental in helping put the whole program in place to start with? Definitely yes!

Is Ted Turner pro wolf and did he help implement the travesty we are now suffering from? Yes definitely so.

Does Ted Turner raise Mexican wolves for release into AZ and NM? Yes he has a big wolf facility rasing wolves for the USFWS on one of his southern NM ranches.

Is Ted Turner promoting and working hard to put wolves out on his huge Vermejo Ranch in northern NM? Yes he has publicly stated so on numerous occasions and is always promoting the idea to the USFWS and all of your "self denial" green wolf lover groups.Oh I forgot that's covered under the hollowed NAMWC.

Is Ted Turner a friend of the ranching and farming industry in NM? No not really as he told a huge audience of NM State University students and faculty a few years ago that the farmers and ranchers of NM shouldn't even try to be in business in this god awful state.

He may not be the only one but he is the man whom has been instrumental in getting both the Northern Rockies and Mexican Wolf programs in place. Ted owns 1.1% of the total land mass of the state of NM.

Go ahead and try to deny a single thing above. You guys just don't get it do you?

Be in self denial but you are not helping the cause and by your good ole hunting boy times around the campfire. Somme of you should be taken and ##### slapped with pig skin leather gloves to the dumb butts whom support anything that man does or tries to do, so called hunters or not. For you guys to support the ultra liberal National Wildlife Foundation is akin to being nothing but a bunny huger and a tree huger wrapped up in one little liberal package. Get after it boys. Drink that ole green koolaide.

J H C I just can't believe it.
 
6986 posts and he still does not get it... Nobody cares what you say. I think your the one who is bat sh!t crazy!!! LAPDOG!!!

At least Stoney has the stones to stand up for what he believes.
 
Thanks Wolfhunter!

Top Gun, the truth hurts so bad dude! Get over it, you and two or three of your buddies here can sure take a compliment when I did acknowledge that you guys in deed probably do a lot of good for our cause. But for you to stick behind the green machine that perpetrated and virtually insured that wolves would come back to the lower 48, and is still totally 100% behind the various wolf programs and the resulting fiasco, and total and complete devastation on many of our ungulate populations and even a bigger toll on livestock, is wrong and you don't have enough sense it would seem to see that very plain fact.
 
Wolfhunter, thanks!

Topgun,

Its seems that I did compliment you and the tow or three others on this thread on the good work you guys are doing in the hunting world in regards to wolves and etc.

What amazes me is that you three or four individual continue to deny that the NWF was 100% pro wolf from before the releases in the Northern Rockies and the SW Mexican variety of wolves. Their web site only show this. They continue to push their pro wolf policy and brag about it.

go to their web site and dig up wolves, and dig up what they said about the reintroduction of the Mexican Gray wolves. They state and I quote "these wolves were reintroduced into the parklands of parts of AZ and NM." Parklands ??? They were forced down the peoples throats into our National Forest and with the primary recovery zone in the Apache/Sitgreaves National Forest in AZ part of it being The Blue Range Primitive area and the secondary recovery zone in NM in the Gila?Apache National forest with part of it the Gila Wilderness. No Park lands. To me Park lands are like YNP.

You continually deny the fact that Ted Turner and his money and foundations and people helped from before the get go in formulating the plan to repopulate the lower 48 with wolves.

You guys are in a state of denial.

So be it! Carry on in your self denying the fact that these organizations and people (Ted Turner) are the true green and main movement behind the whole wolf fiasco.

Oh and by the way I do have papers to prove that I am crazy. I don't however have the paper work for the "bat ##### crazy" accusations you make!
 
Stoney,

Please show a post on here where anyone claimed NWF did NOT support wolf reintroduction. Most people that commented were. The comment period to reintroduce wolves to the Rocky Mt states was enormous. It had the largest amounts of comments compared to anything WS had done before, Maybe the largest volume of comments on any Wildlife project in the US history. The comments and support was over whelming in favor of the re intro. That's from locals too. Overwhelming!

Show one post where anyone claim Ted Turner wasn't GREEN?

Also, like I pointed to earlier, EVERYONE is GREEN compared to you.

You drink up, and relish in news releases made by the far right groups. It's apparent that your only too happy to use this misguided information as fast as they could print it.

As bad as GREEN groups, (I mean really GREEN) PETA, HUSA, Sierra Club,Footloose, Trap Free Montana, Earth Justice, Defenders, and other like them, goes, your far right groups that spew the hate, and misinformation to further political gains are a bigger threat to the type of hunting we have enjoyed the past 100 years.

The sportsmens groups that are growing the fastest, and that have had the most influence with subjects that are going to have huge impacts coming up are the very Sportsmans groups your trying to discredit with your babble. The very groups that do 90% of the work to keep wildlife on the ground, and protect their habitat, and protect sportmens rights, groups that help delist wolves so the states could take over.

I would hope that money isn't your only motivator for trying to preserve wildlife, but there's other fights just as large, if not larger looming on the horizon. I doubt I'll hear much from you on those.

Randy Newberg could have lit you up, but chose the gentleman way of educating you. Too bad it was all wasted, thinking you were worth the energy. The good that will come from this thread is all those lurking that you tried to rally will see just how ignorant your argument was.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
4100fps---+1 and I'm glad you took the time to post, as I wasn't going to waste any more of mine on either him or WH, the latter of whom hasn't made one positive post on anything on this site yet! I'll probably now be called your Lapdog since I agreed with you, LOL!
 
Let me guess TopGun...4100fps took the words right out of your mouth too...talk about getting old. Topgun you need some new lies
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-14 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]>Let me guess TopGun...4100fps took the
>words right out of your
>mouth too...talk about getting old.
> Topgun you need some
>new lies


***Nope, what I and the rest of us need is for you to take a hike with all your negative posts, as that is what's really getting old and I knew you'd come back with another! What's the matter? Did you give up your hunt because all the wolves have outsmarted you, which wouldn't be all that difficult, LOL!!!
 

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