Is it worth the $$??

[HKShooter]

I put my 13 year old in for all the species as a NR. We don't care about a world record trophy, just a good hunt with good opportunities. Will he ever draw a decent hunt in all the species? Thanks.

HK

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

HK - It will take him several years to draw but you have better odds as a NR. My advice is to teach him how to shoot a ML. Much better odds and with the ML's they have out now it's almost like shooting a regular rifle. If I was in your shoes I would be doing the same thing.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[rugarm77]

>HK - It will take him
>several years to draw but
>you have better odds as
>a NR. My advice
>is to teach him how
>to shoot a ML.
>Much better odds and with
>the ML's they have out
>now it's almost like shooting
>a regular rifle. If
>I was in your shoes
>I would be doing the
>same thing.
>
>
>It's always an adventure!!!
>www.awholelottabull.com

I agree with Jim. I wanted to put my son in for a muzz hunt this year but he would not be old enough. Next year will be a different story.

 

[YukonDall]

HK......BE CAREFUL WITH UTAH. I HAVE 11 DEER POINTS AND MIGHT DRAW SOON, THEY HAVE CHANGED THE RULES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME 3 TIMES ON ME. THEY ALSO HAVE ROBBED TAGS OUT OF THE UNITS I AM TRYING TO DRAW FOR EXTENDING MY ODDS & YEARS (ANOTHER $$$ MAKER). THE SFW PEOPLE.....HAVE GOT THEIR HANDS IN THE COOKIE JAR.....WHEN I DRAW .....IT WILL BE MY LAST IN UTAH........JUST THE FACTS....YD.

 

[HKShooter]

Thanks guys. What is your opinions on the length of time for these critters?

Pronghorn

Bison

Desert Bighorn

Rocky Mntn Goat

Moose

Rocky Mntn Sheep

YD, that is why I'm starting him in the game as early as I can, even if I have to not apply due to $$. I would rather go video and pack out and watch the look on his face. Thanks for the help.

HK

 

[dwalton]

Pronghorn: it is reasonable to expect a tag at some point, depending upon the area.

All the others, well, you cannot seriously expect to draw a tag ever in your son's lifetime. The draw odds for sheep are in the 2500 to 1 range. The others; 200 to 1 on up.

Sure you could get lucky and get a permit, but then again you could also be struck by lightning. Your son is 16 years behind in points, and the OIL permits are VERY limited.

One thing is for certain, though. If his name isn't in the draw, he will never have the slim chance of being drawn.

 

[NickJ1980]

Start him now unless you think everyone ahead of him in points is going to live forever. He'll stand a pretty good chance of hunting several of the species before he's too old to hunt if you start now and stick with it.

 

[HKShooter]

That is kinda what I was thinking Nick. I get that the odds are really long, but by the time he is 40ish he'll have 27 points+/-. At the current rate of about $170 per year that will be $4,600 for the application costs for all species at the current cost. Now Utah could screw me like Oregon did you all and that would put a stop to it, but there are enough active Utards in game management that I don't think that will happen. Not sure.

HK

 

[REDDOG]

He sure as hell isnt gonna draw if you dont put him in!

I'll say this..I wish my old man would have started entering me in the draws as soon as I was old enough.

 

[ILArcher]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-10 AT 10:48AM (MST)[p]>
> HK......BE CAREFUL WITH UTAH.
>I HAVE 11 DEER POINTS
>AND MIGHT DRAW SOON,
>THEY HAVE CHANGED THE RULES
>IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
>GAME 3 TIMES ON ME.
> THEY ALSO HAVE
>ROBBED TAGS OUT OF THE
>UNITS I AM TRYING TO
>DRAW FOR EXTENDING MY ODDS
>& YEARS (ANOTHER $$$ MAKER).
>THE SFW PEOPLE.....HAVE GOT THEIR
>HANDS IN THE COOKIE JAR.....WHEN
>I DRAW .....IT WILL BE
>MY LAST IN UTAH........JUST THE
>FACTS....YD.

Unfortunately, I have to concur with YD on this one. I have 13 deer points and the rules in UT have changed 3 times as he says, always discriminating more and more against nonresidents. I highly suggest you take a good long hard look at the current draw odds for all species and see what the reduction in NR quota has done to the draw odds. Plus forget about 1/2 the current permits because those are on preference points. The odds have created a very poor investment for money required. You definitely need to apply in AZ, MT, NM, WY, NV all before considering Utah. Combined with the SFW wealth program, odds here have basically transformed into a lotto ball type scenario, but they act as if everything is the same!

On top of all this, the trend has been set. Do you think future changes will further decrease the NR opportunities you are investing in, or increase them?

Hint: Go try asking Don Peay how nonresidents figure into his long-term UT game management revenue vision. He is supposedly scheduling a public forum soon. Do you think he will set up a Web Net Meeting site for NR's to attend?

I am 50 and if I draw my deer permit this year, I am completely dropping out of future UT draws. I used to apply my son in Utah but I dropped him out and gave up his 7 points after one of the UTDOW "changes" (to put it kindly) in nonresident policy. As mentioned, I suggest studying the investment wisely.

Oregon milked the nonresident $$$ teat dry until basically all nonresidents want out of their hunting program. And think of it, they did this without the impedus of SFW, 100 wealth tags, raffles! So what do you think UT has in store?

 

[dwalton]

HK,

This post should be required reading for all those who have younger kids. Point systems have stacked the odds against most of the younger generation.

Nick's assumption that he'll have a good chance of drawing several once in a lifetime species is simply wrong. It may have been true earlier, but Utah changed the rules last year allowing everyone to apply for every specie. This has created a further back-log of points. There are now 1,000's of people in all the once in a lifetime draws. Some of these draws now have 350 years worth of points to make it to the bonus tags.

Don't want to sound negative, but the simple reality is I don't think anyone can expect or plan to draw a Utah OIL tag if they are just now getting into the game (let alone several). Sure it can happen, but the odds are VERY, VERY small.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

dwalton - only NR can apply for everything. Residents still have to choose.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[NickJ1980]

d-

I hear you and see where you're coming from--I should have drawn either elk or antelope last year but the huge influx of 0 pointers applying for all species killed my chances... My piddly little few points don't stack up to 100's of 0-point applications in a 50% bonus point system.

This is my reasoning though. The kid is 13 years old. I'd say the vast, vast majority of people applying for all species right now are 30-50 years old. That gives him almost 20 years after most of the current applicant pool is either dead or unable to hunt the tougher species. If the statistics that everyone seems to be preaching about the number of new hunters declining is true, that will be in his favor as well.

Given that, I honestly believe that if he starts now and applies every year for every species he will probably draw some of them eventually. I don't think he can reasonably expect to draw them all, but with a little luck and a little strategy he might. Either way, he'll never have a chance if he doesn't try.

 

[HKShooter]

I don't get 100% how the odds/draw system is set up. But it would seem to me that sooner or later (probably later) he would reach a point total that would be at the top. I understand the 350 year back log, but when most of those guys are really old...say 60...just kidding... If a guy is 45 now he will be 77 when my son is 45. I know this is long term thinking, but I feel this is what the Hunting World is coming to...long term odds that may or may not come to fruition. Maybe I should take my money to another state for better odds at all these critters like was said above. But I really like Utah. Everytime I go there it feels good to me...not sure why. Probably the mountains. Thanks for the insight.

HK

 

[wymoosehunter]

HK Shooter,
You are dreaming and wasting your money. Utah is milking the NR by allowing NR's to apply for everything. Once they did that, my 12 years of sheep applications and the $$$'s spent just evaporated. I am stubborn and have wasted way too many $'s on UT and will continue to apply for the sheep, but if you are mathematically inclined, do a simple statistical analysis and you will see that it will only be by PFL (pure something luck-which is a highly accurate statistics classification of no chance in hell) if your son ever draws a OIL in Utah before he has grandchildren. All you have to do is look at OR to get an idea of what Utah is/will be. People are sticking their heads in the sand thinking they will draw in Utah.
The advice in previous posts above is great advice. Apply in MT, WY, NM, CO, ID, NV, and AZ in that order (in my humble opinion). The best bang for your buck. You and for your son will actually go hunting every year and every 3-4 years you will get to hunt a cool new species or hunt in a semi-exotic location.
Or simply save your application $$$'s and book a hunt in Canada or Alaska every five years for the same cost as applying. Off years go with an OTC tag in ID or CO. I bet you would be hunting more often doing that than you would applying in all the other states combined for a OIL type tags.
I have sat down and run the numbers for my son who will be 12 in 2 years and it will be statistically impossible for him to draw a sheep tag before he is too dang old to climb a mountain in a quality unit in our home state of WY with the current point system. I hate points for the simple reason us greedy older generations are killing our children's hunting future with our whining to our G&F over continued preference points policies.
I like ID's system the best, pick a species and apply and let lady luck have her way with you. I have not drawn a sheep tag in ID, but at least it is fair. NM is great too with straight luck of the draw. I have drawn an incredible tag there and hope to again, but again, at least it is fair to all. NV has the best point system going in my opinion. Everyone has a chance, but the dedicated are rewarded with an increased chance of drawing. If a state has to have a point system, NV is arguably the best.
Frankly, I think all the surrounding states should start punishing UT and OR because those surrounding states are subsidizing UT and their system. Pass reciprocal laws based on NR draw odds and match what UT and OR give out to NR's and very, very few UT and OR hunters would be hunting on any given year in any state. As a matter of fact, I think Utah G&F must be left-wing Dems since they "tax" the other states by sending all their hunters out of state so they can rip off the residents of the other states that support their policies.
Just my humble opinion. Let the fur fly now. I expect lots of hate mail, but the truth hurts and people get angry when the truth is told. Keep it classy and reasoned and we will have fun.

WyMo

PS. Good luck in the draws, it is that time of year. Hope to see you in the field, even the Utahans hunting in Wyoming-frankly you are welcome to hunt here (and we give a minimum of %25 of our tags to NR's-remember that when you go to blasting me ).

 

[Wiszard]

It was a different game 3 or 4 years ago when points were $5. I plan on buring my points next year or the year after and that will be the first and only time hunting in Utah. I am not disappointed by it in the least. When you start accumulating points, you really think you may have a chance in 10 years or so to draw. You just figure it's got to happen. Never has and seems I never will get that great tag I thought I mite have when I first started. I'm no longer playing the pay to play game. I'll burn them on the best tag I can get for the number of points I have and move on. Rotate between WY, Nevada, Ca and Colorado for the rest of my hunting days. Utah has made enough money from me without it paying off that I refuse to keep pretending that it will pay off in a big way.

Steve

 

[ILArcher]

wymoosehunter,

No blasting from me! You are dead on right with every sentence you wrote.

95% of those that would argue with you are either residents or just plain ignorant.

I guess the one good thing about having 3 boys who don't hunt is I don't have to worry about investing for them and having it stolen by bait-n-switch. If any of them ever change their minds, I'll just take them whitetail hunting, or to Canada. Simple.

 

[dwalton]

"I hate points for the simple reason us greedy older generations are killing our children's hunting future with our whining to our G&F over continued preference points policies."


Wyomoose is dead-on here! I've been arguing this for years. In January I argued until I was blue in the face with Wyo residents insisting how elk, deer, and antelope need to have resident points systems.

Point systems are basically pyramid schemes that reward the very few while excluding many from the chance at hunting the best PUBLIC lands in the West.

The problem is the G&F make so much money off of points (WY non-ressy sheep points make more money than non-ressy sheep tag sales), and the hunters become some emotionally attached to them that I'm afraid they're here to stay.

 

[HKShooter]

Great points guys. And thanks for taking the time to educate me. I really need to sit down for a couple days and focus on what we want to hunt and what our "decent" chances are and how much money we plan on spending in the long run...Are there any Rocket Science Hunters out there? A guy either has to be rich and not care about the money, or a genius with all the states and their draws and game laws. It takes an incredible amount of time and effort....Then...I guess once you get it figured out then they pull an Oregon on ya and you get the shaft...

HK

 

[Tree]

You can't score from the bench.

 

[ILArcher]

>You can't score from the bench.
>

This is the battle cry the most prostituting DOW's rely on for their revenue stream.

 

[ILArcher]

>Great points guys. And thanks for
>taking the time to educate
>me. I really need to
>sit down for a couple
>days and focus on what
>we want to hunt and
>what our "decent" chances are
>and how much money we
>plan on spending in the
>long run...Are there any Rocket
>Science Hunters out there? A
>guy either has to be
>rich and not care about
>the money, or a genius
>with all the states and
>their draws and game laws.
>It takes an incredible amount
>of time and effort....Then...I guess
>once you get it figured
>out then they pull an
>Oregon on ya and you
>get the shaft...
>
>HK


HK, I want to emphasise and again concur with what WMH said....."Apply in MT, WY, NM, CO, ID, NV, and AZ in that order (in my humble opinion). The best bang for your buck." You should study these state's draw systems and prices, draw odds, quality......and be willing to buy into all these programs before considering Utah. If you have bought into all these, and are a gamblin man.........then consider Utah as a supplementary option.

 

[yak4fish]

HK
I'm in the same boat with you I put my now 15 year old son in last year for everything I could put in for bought bonus points you name it he was in. This year I sat him down in front of the computer to do it himself. He says look dad I have bonus points for all these animals, I reply thats because I put you in for points last year. He replys "I don't want to hunt bonus points" This took me by surprise big time. So I explained the system and showed him the odds site so he could understand why I put him in the year before. So now my 15 year old son tells me this is a waste of money and time to buy bonus points there's 1220 people in front of me for bison.
So this year with my 15 year olds wisdom we only put in for what we want to hunt this year it will only ever be the lucky tag for him never the maximum point tag. He wants to hunt general archery deer with me so we put in for that and LE elk for the lucky tag.
No more "Utah bonus point hunts" for me waste of money unless you have 10 points or more.

 

[littlebighorn]

HK,
Here is my take, for what it is worth.
Most of the tags you are applying for are OIL tags and since there are a very limited number of tags, even for residents, your son's chances of drawing are limited. However, since Utah only gives preference to top points when there are two or more tags per unit, most all NR OIL tags are open to anyone...including a 13 year old with no points.
I have been putting in for Desert Sheep in Utah(resident) for nearly 40 years, but last year my son drew a tag in the same unit I was putting in for with about half the points that I have. I have top points for that tag, but he drew it before me.
The point I make is, despite being behind, he still has a chance...all-be-it a small chance. And if you don't put him in, he won't draw for sure.
I accompanied my son on his hunt and it was much better than if I would have had the tag myself. I will eventually draw, if I live long enough, but no experience can top the one I had with him this year. So good luck and I hope you get to experience what I did!

 

[coondog]

>>Great points guys. And thanks for
>>taking the time to educate
>>me. I really need to
>>sit down for a couple
>>days and focus on what
>>we want to hunt and
>>what our "decent" chances are
>>and how much money we
>>plan on spending in the
>>long run...Are there any Rocket
>>Science Hunters out there? A
>>guy either has to be
>>rich and not care about
>>the money, or a genius
>>with all the states and
>>their draws and game laws.
>>It takes an incredible amount
>>of time and effort....Then...I guess
>>once you get it figured
>>out then they pull an
>>Oregon on ya and you
>>get the shaft...
>>
>>HK
>
>
>HK, I want to emphasise and
>again concur with what WMH
>said....."Apply in MT, WY, NM,
>CO, ID, NV, and AZ
>in that order (in my
>humble opinion). The best bang
>for your buck." You
>should study these state's draw
>systems and prices, draw odds,
>quality......and be willing to buy
>into all these programs before
>considering Utah. If you
>have bought into all these,
>and are a gamblin man.........then
>consider Utah as a supplementary
>option.



dont let ilarcher or anyone else talk you out of applying in utah
il claims utah only gives 5% of tags to non-res but he put in for a unit that has 8 res tags and 1 non-res tag. il also told you az and nv would be better options for your kid
az charges adults 151$ for a license plus app fees and any tags that compare to utahs take at least 14 points to even be in the draw 50% of all utah tags can be drawen by anyone!! also to apply in nv for tags that compare to utah costs about 250$ utah costs about 125$ apply for all states you can afford but dont skip utah it will be woth it in the long run

 

[ILArcher]

Good lord I swear some of Don Peay's smoke and mirror mentality is permeating the residents.

You cannot hide the statistical numbers. Do your own good job studying the odds and the anti-NR rule change trends, and it's obvious to figure out yourself. Do not be blinded by smoke and mirrors. Unlike SFW, the UTDOW publishes the statistics so you can see your snowball chance in hell right up front.

 

[coondog]

>Good lord I swear some of
>Don Peay's smoke and mirror
>mentality is permeating the residents.
>
>
>You cannot hide the statistical numbers.
> Do your own good
>job studying the odds and
>the anti-NR rule change trends,
>and it's obvious to figure
>out yourself. Do not
>be blinded by smoke and
>mirrors. Unlike SFW, the
>UTDOW publishes the statistics so
>you can see your snowball
>chance in hell right up
>front.

ilarcher

are you saying utah dosent give 10% to non res?

 

[ILArcher]

"are you saying utah dosent give 10% to non res?"

Been there debated this. Not even close if you consider all the auction tags removed from the pool, and the 200 NR tags converted to raffle tags which we must fly across country to have a snowball's chance in hell to draw, and give that money to a corrupt organization. Figure those in the base and no way it's 10%. Whip out your Don Peay-to-Play smoke and mirrors and I am sure you can create your illusion any number of ways, just like he does.

The numbers don't lie.

Sound advice to any NR's thinking of getting in this UTDOW game.

 

[bullmania]

All these state are getting rather expensive ????????



Bull

 

[coondog]

il archer


you know utah gives 10% to non res so why do you keep saying they dont? auction tags and expo tags can go to anyone i dont have exact numbers but i would bet more non res buy auction tags than res . you said utah changed rules on you three times? did they take away your points? show me the numbers that you keep talking about that dont lie

 

[dwalton]

Coondog,

Not to pick a fight but here are the facts:

1.) Until this year when the Zion unit was opened, the non-ressy quota on desert sheep was 2 (not 10% of the total quota).

2.) The rule changes have been bonus points and draws used to cost $10, then changes were made that raised the cost by 8 times that amount. Lastly, changes were made to allow non-ressy's to apply for all species. This basically de-valued the points a person accumulated for a particular specie by adding thousands of new applicants into the draw.

I'm not specifically picking on Utah because all of the states have given the non-ressy the shaft since the whole USO lawsuit resolution.

 

[ILArcher]

>il archer
>
>
>you know utah gives 10% to
>non res so why do
>you keep saying they dont?
>auction tags and expo tags
>can go to anyone i
>dont have exact numbers but
>i would bet more non
>res buy auction tags than
>res . you said utah
>changed rules on you three
>times? did they take
>away your points? show
>me the numbers that you
>keep talking about that dont
>lie


coondog,

I'm done with my applications for the year except for AZ deer & sheep, so I am losing interest in the stats. However, with regards to the 200 raffle tags taken from nonresidents, you can look online and count exactly. I don't have time, but I do remember approximately 75% were drawn by residents, 25% by nonresidents.

My points were not stolen, just grossly devalued by approx. 400% due to past changes. That is why I'm stuck with 13 devalued deer points.

 

[Califelkslayer]

I skipped everyone elses comments BUT here's mine. Apply him for the Youth elk hunt as long as he's eligible. His odds are better than a resident.

I believe you are on the right track!! My son and daughter earned PPs in NV, Ut, Ore and Co. My son took 3 elk in Co as a youth. Daughter hunted elk in Ore and lost interest. I dropped NV/UT for my son when his attitude got bad as a teenager. When it improved, he still had PPs in Oregon (7) and Co. This year he's goin elk huntin in Co with my wife and step-son. Had I not put him in while in basic training last year, he wouldn't be goin this year. He's paying half and I'm just glad he'll be there.

Utah??? Tough, but he'll eventually draw some tags, maybe not sheep/goat. When he does, you'll look back and thank yourself for having the foresight to do it. And it's only money.

Just my opinion.

 

[woodruffhunter]

Don't worry too much about ILArcher... I find it amazing that he used to live in Utah and is complaining about the tag numbers lol... Yeah, I am sure the LE elk hunting was much better in the 80's.

But I will agree with a few things. I do think the UDWR ripped of NR's by allowing everyone to apply for all species. Its not right or fair. Nothing wrong with charging an "upfront" fee to apply. What is it, about $65?? Thats not too outrageous.

All states have their issues. I would say New Mexico is the "fairest" on how they do there point system. As far as point systems, I would say Nevada is the best.

Idaho is a ripoff and I can't believe ILarcher is promoting them. Last year they raised their fees again.. What is it $160-$170 to apply???

As was posted earlier, apply your son for the youth elk hunt. Try the other species, you never know. There are some decent NR tags to be had.

 

[ILArcher]

WRH, With all due respect, I don't think you read my posts very well. For example, I was never a UT resident and never claimed to have been.

And if you look at the odds of drawing a good tag, UT is falling down on the list from a NR perspective. ID has not prostituted itself yet, and has maintained it's NR quotas. UT simple gets worse every year. As I mentioned, 400% less than just 5 or 6 years ago. A guy has to look at all thee factors when making long term investment decisions. What if the trend continues and NR opportunities drop by another 400% in the next 5 years? That is why I pulled my 3 boys apps from UT.

All I am saying is that for any dad who wants to invest in points for his kids, that is is great. However, I recommend studying each state's quotas, odds, prices, and most important nonresident tag quota trends in deciding which states offer the best anticipated value. I say anticipated because you are guaranteed nothing. The way it is now, and state can lead you on investing in points for years, then pull the rug out and screw you. That is all I'm saying and I don't know how anyone can argue with that.

Dad's first money should go to the states offering the best long-term investment, then 2nd best, 3rd best if he thinks the funds justify. UT is about 6th down on the list, and dropping each year.

 

[woodruffhunter]

I apoligize; my mistake. I was sure you were a former resident.

I guess it comes down to how we perceive value. In no way i am saying Utah is the best. However, we are all ignorant in our thinking, and narrow minded to attribute all failings of game management to a specific organization.

If we think this through ultimately the lies with the UDWR. They are the ones who make the decisions- be they good or bad.

I will say that NR's do get the shaft in our state and was narrow minded myself, thinking from a resident perspective.

Good luck in your draws and good job involving your children with hunting.

 

[HKShooter]

Thanks for all the great opinions and data. ILA, I completely understand where you are coming from. Obviously, you are serious about figuring this stuff out and I really appreciate your cander and the time you spent helping me understand. The situation only becomes amplified by having 3-5 people paying for points. Rich man's game for sure.

My .02 on Utah is that there are a ton of guys who deeply care about game management and they are very serious about it for Better or Worse. Tough to please everyone all the time.

I really want to hunt big bulls in UT, so for now I'll keep building maybe until I get the elk tag I want, then I'll trim it down to just putting in my son. If I ever find that money tree, then who knows...

HK

 

[ILArcher]

HK,

I have been applying since 1996, expanding states pretty quickly and building points over the years. So I am up to 14-15 in many states. Unfortunately, any more, each year I'm afraid when the proclamations come out. More and more states make new policy to reduce nonresident opportunity and make more money one way or another. It's to the point where it's not enough just to profit from selling higher priced hunting tags. The big money is in making money for the opportunity to NOT hunt. Because there are more hunters who don't draw, than do.

It's gotten so bad each year I evaluate my apps looking for hunts to drop, even though I may have points built. All have been due to NR policy change. Thinking back on some I dropped due to state degradation: MT sheep, WY sheep (lost 7 points), kids UT elk (lost 5 points). With the latest changes I want completely out of all species in Oregon and everything in Utah except for deer. I want out of WY for moose once I draw my first tag should be this year. In many of these places it's just gotten to the point where once you calculate all the time and money lost waiting in line, it's a better ROI to buy a tag and hunt in Canada now.

I don't see it getting any better any time soon. It seems the only 2 states that really value nonresidents coming to their states are Colorado and New Mexico.