Its a good thing we have lions around to kill all those deer eating coyotes. With out lions Utahs deer herds would really be bad.
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=mj1kdi
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=mj1kdi
Its a good thing we have lions
- Thread starter buffalo
- Start date
S
Smiley
Guest
I have found quit a few coyotes like that and caught several lion of coyote kills .
I have found more coyotes killed by lions than I have found deer kills from lions .
But I know that most often coyotes chase the lion off its kill.
I have found more coyotes killed by lions than I have found deer kills from lions .
But I know that most often coyotes chase the lion off its kill.
COOL!
That's a great Idea Buffalo, instead of the SFW paying bounties on coyotes, I think they ought to turn a few more lions loose instead!! I'm a little past due on my SFW membership, but the promise of more lions would do a lot to motivate me to pen 'em another check!
That's a great Idea Buffalo, instead of the SFW paying bounties on coyotes, I think they ought to turn a few more lions loose instead!! I'm a little past due on my SFW membership, but the promise of more lions would do a lot to motivate me to pen 'em another check!
fisrtcoueswas80inches
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,648
smiley, you must not hunt coues deer in southern az then! every other canyon has atlease one lion killed buck in it!
Casey
Casey
O
opportunist
Guest
DO yotes cover their kills with grass and sticks and come back later to eat again? Cause that is all I have ever found as far as deer kills, especially in NM /AZ.
S
Sniper69
Guest
Hey Buffalo,
Pass the Bong!!!! you have had way to much!!!!
Besides crack kills.
Niether one is a good recipe for a healthy deer herd.
To suggest we need more of another predator is crazy.
We need less of all predators.
Pass the Bong!!!! you have had way to much!!!!
Besides crack kills.
Niether one is a good recipe for a healthy deer herd.
To suggest we need more of another predator is crazy.
We need less of all predators.
J
JCMULEY
Guest
Kill Em All!
>quote by Sniper69
>......Niether one is a good recipe
>for a healthy deer herd......
Gotta disagree with you here 69, deer and lions have evolved together and have traditionally became mutually dependant on each other for survival. The lion depended on the deer for food and the deer have depended on the lion to keep their population swings in check. The creator must have known what he was doing when he put the two on the earth together.
You know, this whole lion vs deer debate goes back to a fundamental philosophical question on what the purpose of the state fish and game should be; to create and foster healthy ecosystems, or to raise up big antlered ungulates for harvest. If it's for having healthy ecosystems, then you have to have predators and diversity. If it's for raising up big antlered ungulates, then let's just throw up some tall fences and turn the state fish and game into big game ranchers......because that, by far, would be the most efficient way to accomplish that goal. Perhaps this is what some of the anti predator crowd would prefer.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I kinda like the diversity.
>......Niether one is a good recipe
>for a healthy deer herd......
Gotta disagree with you here 69, deer and lions have evolved together and have traditionally became mutually dependant on each other for survival. The lion depended on the deer for food and the deer have depended on the lion to keep their population swings in check. The creator must have known what he was doing when he put the two on the earth together.
You know, this whole lion vs deer debate goes back to a fundamental philosophical question on what the purpose of the state fish and game should be; to create and foster healthy ecosystems, or to raise up big antlered ungulates for harvest. If it's for having healthy ecosystems, then you have to have predators and diversity. If it's for raising up big antlered ungulates, then let's just throw up some tall fences and turn the state fish and game into big game ranchers......because that, by far, would be the most efficient way to accomplish that goal. Perhaps this is what some of the anti predator crowd would prefer.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I kinda like the diversity.
HunterHarry
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,002
I agree Kevin,
However I want to be part of the equation as a hunter.
If we back off and let ma nature balance herself out, we must accept population crashes of predator AND prey animals.
I think Game & Fish depts are seeking a static population of each.
Unnatural? Yes, but beneficial to us the human hunter.
HH
However I want to be part of the equation as a hunter.
If we back off and let ma nature balance herself out, we must accept population crashes of predator AND prey animals.
I think Game & Fish depts are seeking a static population of each.
Unnatural? Yes, but beneficial to us the human hunter.
HH
S
Sniper69
Guest
Well Kevin D,
How many times have you hunted Lions????
Is your philosophy from experience or just theory????
I usually participate in at least one lion hunt a year.
Not saying that I am always the hunter but I usually go anually.
Every lion that I have ever been involved with is typically "Camped" within 1/4 to 1/2 of a mile of a wintering herd of deer or elk.It is almost a science.While persuing lions you usually always encounter at lest one dead deer or elk.
Sometime's more.
Next time you see a herd of deer or elk from about any highway,
figure a lion is very close by.
The state biologist's don't have very close "estimates" on
how many lion's even inhabit Utah.
They will deny that to the bitter end too.
However; they issue permit's as if they conduct "rollcall" every morning statewide.Besides the cougar coalition(anti-hunters) attemts to slap lawsuits'on the state if they issue to many permits.
I also am a very avid coyote hunter.
I spend many Days/hours afield.
Predators are year-round "Poachers"
I wish I could find the summary of Arizona's predator & drought study.It has some very interesting points.
Equation=Predators to many=Deer to few!!
It is as solid as "the sun come up in the east" every time!!!
How many times have you hunted Lions????
Is your philosophy from experience or just theory????
I usually participate in at least one lion hunt a year.
Not saying that I am always the hunter but I usually go anually.
Every lion that I have ever been involved with is typically "Camped" within 1/4 to 1/2 of a mile of a wintering herd of deer or elk.It is almost a science.While persuing lions you usually always encounter at lest one dead deer or elk.
Sometime's more.
Next time you see a herd of deer or elk from about any highway,
figure a lion is very close by.
The state biologist's don't have very close "estimates" on
how many lion's even inhabit Utah.
They will deny that to the bitter end too.
However; they issue permit's as if they conduct "rollcall" every morning statewide.Besides the cougar coalition(anti-hunters) attemts to slap lawsuits'on the state if they issue to many permits.
I also am a very avid coyote hunter.
I spend many Days/hours afield.
Predators are year-round "Poachers"
I wish I could find the summary of Arizona's predator & drought study.It has some very interesting points.
Equation=Predators to many=Deer to few!!
It is as solid as "the sun come up in the east" every time!!!
B
bear_wild
Guest
Sniper69
Kevin has not yet been back to answer your question but I can for you. Kevin does hunt lions, (more than once a year). And while I've never met Kevin I have heard he is pretty efficient at what he does. I along with many friends also runs lions.
I am with you that sure I'd love to have huge bucks runnin everywhere come October. It'd be nice if there were no deer killed besides the ones I want to take myself. But we need to think about this. It's not all lions. Maybe I'm only seein 2 points because, the buck that would be bigger this year was shot last. We as a state aren't allowing any of our deer to mature. Then we expect these 2 year old bucks to be monster. It just doesn't work that way. Or maybe it was Grandma taggin that pregnant doe on the highway. Or that fawn that couldn't quite make it over Farmer Joe's fence and hung itself. Maybe it's those deer that die from all their winter grounds bein parking lots and wal marts.
Sure lions kill deer, along with coyotes and even a bear now and then. But those are all natural predators, However the new Duramax at 85 mph, that's not always been there. Or the hunters that take every buck they see.
Yeah I'd love to take huge bucks every year, but I'd rather someday take a nice tom over a pack of hounds. I'm not alone on this, people do enjoy runnin cats. There are hound hunters every bit as passionate about what they do as any muley fanatic. But the people that actually put the time into doin the work year round to make a pack of dogs, and catch a cat. They are the ones that are seein less and less game.
Let's face it, lions kill deer. But they're not the big problem.
Kevin has not yet been back to answer your question but I can for you. Kevin does hunt lions, (more than once a year). And while I've never met Kevin I have heard he is pretty efficient at what he does. I along with many friends also runs lions.
I am with you that sure I'd love to have huge bucks runnin everywhere come October. It'd be nice if there were no deer killed besides the ones I want to take myself. But we need to think about this. It's not all lions. Maybe I'm only seein 2 points because, the buck that would be bigger this year was shot last. We as a state aren't allowing any of our deer to mature. Then we expect these 2 year old bucks to be monster. It just doesn't work that way. Or maybe it was Grandma taggin that pregnant doe on the highway. Or that fawn that couldn't quite make it over Farmer Joe's fence and hung itself. Maybe it's those deer that die from all their winter grounds bein parking lots and wal marts.
Sure lions kill deer, along with coyotes and even a bear now and then. But those are all natural predators, However the new Duramax at 85 mph, that's not always been there. Or the hunters that take every buck they see.
Yeah I'd love to take huge bucks every year, but I'd rather someday take a nice tom over a pack of hounds. I'm not alone on this, people do enjoy runnin cats. There are hound hunters every bit as passionate about what they do as any muley fanatic. But the people that actually put the time into doin the work year round to make a pack of dogs, and catch a cat. They are the ones that are seein less and less game.
Let's face it, lions kill deer. But they're not the big problem.
HarryHunt
Then you should accept the population crash with deer is mostly do to all of you so called deer hunters shooting every 2 point you see. With your 300 mag laid across the handle bars of your ATV.
Sniper69
I'm sorry but you really made me laugh. Although I don't know Kevin D and have never met him personally. I do know that he is one of the best lion trackers there is. You go on 1 lion hunt a year and know all about it. I would guess Keven D goes on 2 or more a week.
You two should get out in the hills a little more, than the two weekends a year you whack those two points. You might see there are very few lions. A lot of coyotes, and they all have there place.
Then you should accept the population crash with deer is mostly do to all of you so called deer hunters shooting every 2 point you see. With your 300 mag laid across the handle bars of your ATV.
Sniper69
I'm sorry but you really made me laugh. Although I don't know Kevin D and have never met him personally. I do know that he is one of the best lion trackers there is. You go on 1 lion hunt a year and know all about it. I would guess Keven D goes on 2 or more a week.
You two should get out in the hills a little more, than the two weekends a year you whack those two points. You might see there are very few lions. A lot of coyotes, and they all have there place.
E
Elksnuffer
Guest
Kevin D
You said
The creator must have known what he was doing when he put the two on the earth together.
Well why did he put man on the earth also, he had to figure this in there somewhere to.
You said
The creator must have known what he was doing when he put the two on the earth together.
Well why did he put man on the earth also, he had to figure this in there somewhere to.
S
Sniper69
Guest
You are right in the respect that alot of factors have negative affects on the deer herd.
Highways,drought,winter kill,over-grazing,predators,hunting etc.
However;I get worked-up when people visualize that lions don't affect deer very much.
If you and Kevin D both run lions every year,then you are very aware of finding a lion-killed deer or elk very frequently???.
When on a track of a tom,do you ever find empty bucket of KFC that the lion left behind???
It's usually a deer,that has had coyotes,crows,magpie's,eagles or hawks,visit it since the lion left.
Am I right????
Keep in mind these are loose figures.
Utahs deer herd objectives are around 426,000 deer statewide.
The actual estimate for this year are maybe 290,000-300,000.
That equates to the deer herd is @ approx. 66% of where it should be(DWR Objectives).
Are the lions at 66% capacity???
Not even close.More like 90%+.
I enjoy hunting lion's.
But,I would rather hunt mule deer.
I hunt lions to make sure one lion get's killed.
I have friends who are avid houndsmen.
However,thier oppinion on the lion/deer debate is usually biased.
I know I will probally have every houndsmen in the state ready to get"mid-evil"with me over what I have said.
I don't want your sport to diminish,I wish that every time you ran a lion it resulted in a dead one.
Highways,drought,winter kill,over-grazing,predators,hunting etc.
However;I get worked-up when people visualize that lions don't affect deer very much.
If you and Kevin D both run lions every year,then you are very aware of finding a lion-killed deer or elk very frequently???.
When on a track of a tom,do you ever find empty bucket of KFC that the lion left behind???
It's usually a deer,that has had coyotes,crows,magpie's,eagles or hawks,visit it since the lion left.
Am I right????
Keep in mind these are loose figures.
Utahs deer herd objectives are around 426,000 deer statewide.
The actual estimate for this year are maybe 290,000-300,000.
That equates to the deer herd is @ approx. 66% of where it should be(DWR Objectives).
Are the lions at 66% capacity???
Not even close.More like 90%+.
I enjoy hunting lion's.
But,I would rather hunt mule deer.
I hunt lions to make sure one lion get's killed.
I have friends who are avid houndsmen.
However,thier oppinion on the lion/deer debate is usually biased.
I know I will probally have every houndsmen in the state ready to get"mid-evil"with me over what I have said.
I don't want your sport to diminish,I wish that every time you ran a lion it resulted in a dead one.
69
I started out just hunting deer. There was very few Elk in Utah at that time. It was a drawing only, and very hard to draw. At that time I thought just like you do about lions and bear. So back in the early 70ies I got a few hounds to kill all those killer predators. After hunting them a few years I began to see I was way wrong about the way things work out in the wild. I took a early retirement so I can hunt year round. Now I've hunted Elk, Deer, Moose, Bison, wild goats & pigs, waterfowl, upland game and predators in Utah. (someday maybe desert sheep LOL) I've also hunted several other states and in May I'm going to Africa. But It has been 8 or 9 years sense I've done any more than taken a picture of a lion or bear. Last year I drew a lion tag. I treed a few but I did not shoot one because there is way to few of them! I might have shot a huge tom. but it's been a long time sense I've seen one of those. Maybe it takes more time out in the hills "year round" than most deer hunters get. But with enough time most people would realize how much we need a healthy lion population, and just how majestic and beautiful they are. I think most houndsman start out with deer & elk before hunting with hounds but the more educated they get on wildlife they understand predators are not a bad thing. That's why they have formed a group and ask UDWR to cut back on lion tags. Maybe with a little more age and education you might come around too. All hunter need to stick together or the antis win slowly but surely.
I started out just hunting deer. There was very few Elk in Utah at that time. It was a drawing only, and very hard to draw. At that time I thought just like you do about lions and bear. So back in the early 70ies I got a few hounds to kill all those killer predators. After hunting them a few years I began to see I was way wrong about the way things work out in the wild. I took a early retirement so I can hunt year round. Now I've hunted Elk, Deer, Moose, Bison, wild goats & pigs, waterfowl, upland game and predators in Utah. (someday maybe desert sheep LOL) I've also hunted several other states and in May I'm going to Africa. But It has been 8 or 9 years sense I've done any more than taken a picture of a lion or bear. Last year I drew a lion tag. I treed a few but I did not shoot one because there is way to few of them! I might have shot a huge tom. but it's been a long time sense I've seen one of those. Maybe it takes more time out in the hills "year round" than most deer hunters get. But with enough time most people would realize how much we need a healthy lion population, and just how majestic and beautiful they are. I think most houndsman start out with deer & elk before hunting with hounds but the more educated they get on wildlife they understand predators are not a bad thing. That's why they have formed a group and ask UDWR to cut back on lion tags. Maybe with a little more age and education you might come around too. All hunter need to stick together or the antis win slowly but surely.
S
Sniper69
Guest
Well Buffalo,
Since everyone seems to think that we are filling out a wildlife resume.
I am not a wet-behind the ears kid.
I not only have hunted,various in many other states,I have lived there as well.
I am still working toward an Africa trip.
The years are sneaking up on me faster than I care to admit.
Where do you get the idea they are few in numbers???
They are plenty!!!!
Predator's have thier place,yes but when they is an over abundance of them it affects lot's of other game.
Have you even witnessed a lion a deer or elk???
I have twice within the last 10 years.
Regardless,of what you think my age or education is.
One fact remains.
Plenty of lions within Utah,right-now.
You or anyone is not going to convince me otherwise.
The evidence I see on a regular basis, Is what helps
me develop my opinion.
To many predators in Utah!!!!!!
Ps
o you think the Utah cougar coalition is a band of avid hunters trying to preserve the sport?I would estimate that most of those folks share alot of views with PETA.
Since everyone seems to think that we are filling out a wildlife resume.
I am not a wet-behind the ears kid.
I not only have hunted,various in many other states,I have lived there as well.
I am still working toward an Africa trip.
The years are sneaking up on me faster than I care to admit.
Where do you get the idea they are few in numbers???
They are plenty!!!!
Predator's have thier place,yes but when they is an over abundance of them it affects lot's of other game.
Have you even witnessed a lion a deer or elk???
I have twice within the last 10 years.
Regardless,of what you think my age or education is.
One fact remains.
Plenty of lions within Utah,right-now.
You or anyone is not going to convince me otherwise.
The evidence I see on a regular basis, Is what helps
me develop my opinion.
To many predators in Utah!!!!!!
Ps
o you think the Utah cougar coalition is a band of avid hunters trying to preserve the sport?I would estimate that most of those folks share alot of views with PETA.
H
horseshoe
Guest
There is too many people in Utah not too many Lions. Lot's more fellows know lots more about this but lions ain't you guys problem.
B
bear_wild
Guest
It's clear hear, that 90% of this whole discussion is opinion and 10% is fact. Deer Hunting is a sport, Lion Hunting is sport, baseball is a sport. We all enjoy what we do, strive to be great at it, and want to best conditions possible. Clearly deer hunters want more deer so there are more for them to hunt. Lion hunters want more lions to chase. Baseball players want corked bats and steriods so they can hit homeruns. No there aren't tons of deer in Utah, but there aren't tons of lions either. But I know of a lot more lions hunters buyin a tag goin out and just takin pictures, than deer hunters doin the same. They are themselves helping the lion population, but deer hunters just want to take out another factor. Why don't you and all your friends as deer hunters go a couple years and quit shootin deer, just take pictures? I understand you all want thriving deer herds, that's understandable. But we as lion hunters want a thriving lion population as well. Sure if you spend time outdoors you will find deer kills, from whatever predator it may be. But how often do you see a deer that's alive. If you live outside major cities it's probably daily. Now how often do you see lions, unless you work at a zoo it's probably rare. So why do lion hunters have to pursue a rare animal and deer hunters get to complain about low numbers when they are seein animals every day? Cat hunter use dogs because there is less game, we're okay with that just realize we have every bit as much right to be able to chase lions as somebody does to shoot a deer.
You need to see my resume Sniper69?? Too much work. Let me just say that yeah, I've hunted lions once or twice in my lifetime. ;-) You think there is too many lions now '69, you should have been around 15 to 20 years ago! There was a helluva lot more then.....course the deer herds were up near 100% management objectives too. Hmmmm, go figure.
HunterHarry, I agree with you too. Human hunting can and should be part of the equation. I enjoy hunting deer and elk as much as anyone......as long as there isn't a hound season going on somewhere
Bear_wild, that's one of the sanest arguments I've heard yet in this continuing deer/lion debate.
HunterHarry, I agree with you too. Human hunting can and should be part of the equation. I enjoy hunting deer and elk as much as anyone......as long as there isn't a hound season going on somewhere
Bear_wild, that's one of the sanest arguments I've heard yet in this continuing deer/lion debate.
S
Sniper69
Guest
Kevin D,
I was around 15-20 years ago.
Bear wild,
One thing that you are right about is that,most deer hunters are interested in less lions.That is true.
But other things you say confuse me.
BW:But I know of a lot more lions hunters buyin a tag goin out and just takin pictures,
Why would you get a lion permit to take picture when you should already have a pursuit permit???????
BW:Why don't you and all your friends as deer hunters go a couple years and quit shootin deer, just take pictures?
First of all most of us don't shoot a deer every year.Next,we do alot of photographing,early season,late season etc.
The deer are becoming less&less every year.
We do see more signs of lion's and even see lions themselves.
How about the two different homeowners in the salt-lake valley,
a year or so ago,one was in thier back yard,one was in thier garage,do you think the homeowners saw them?????(it was on the news).Another story, the guy in Tropic a few years back who lost all o his yard dogs to a lion attack,the guy in Salina who had one in his back yard(1-3 years ago),not to mention all of the other ocurances of your so-called rare beautiful animal that goes unreported.
BW:So why do lion hunters have to pursue a rare animal and deer hunters get to complain about low numbers when they are seein animals every day?
What is this???You think that lions are rare because you
don't see them every day.Get a clue!!!!
This summary is clearly my opinion:
1.All of a sudden everyone on here is a houndsman?
2.They all just want to take pictures?
3.You think that lions are rare?
Obsevation:
1.You guy's are tree huggers,posing as hunters.
2.You guy's are tree huggers,posing as hunters.
3.You think that lions are rare,because you don't know any better.
4.It is a good thing that when you guy's draw one of those elusive "photo-tags" that after you have the tag un-filled
for so-long,one of us young,un-educated blood-thirsty,heathens gets to go shoot it for you.
I am done arguing this with you guy's.
Ps: Lions are like rattlesnakes,they are better when thier DEAD!!!!
LION'S ARE NOT RARE,IN UTAH!!!!!!!
I was around 15-20 years ago.
Bear wild,
One thing that you are right about is that,most deer hunters are interested in less lions.That is true.
But other things you say confuse me.
BW:But I know of a lot more lions hunters buyin a tag goin out and just takin pictures,
Why would you get a lion permit to take picture when you should already have a pursuit permit???????
BW:Why don't you and all your friends as deer hunters go a couple years and quit shootin deer, just take pictures?
First of all most of us don't shoot a deer every year.Next,we do alot of photographing,early season,late season etc.
The deer are becoming less&less every year.
We do see more signs of lion's and even see lions themselves.
How about the two different homeowners in the salt-lake valley,
a year or so ago,one was in thier back yard,one was in thier garage,do you think the homeowners saw them?????(it was on the news).Another story, the guy in Tropic a few years back who lost all o his yard dogs to a lion attack,the guy in Salina who had one in his back yard(1-3 years ago),not to mention all of the other ocurances of your so-called rare beautiful animal that goes unreported.
BW:So why do lion hunters have to pursue a rare animal and deer hunters get to complain about low numbers when they are seein animals every day?
What is this???You think that lions are rare because you
don't see them every day.Get a clue!!!!
This summary is clearly my opinion:
1.All of a sudden everyone on here is a houndsman?
2.They all just want to take pictures?
3.You think that lions are rare?
Obsevation:
1.You guy's are tree huggers,posing as hunters.
2.You guy's are tree huggers,posing as hunters.
3.You think that lions are rare,because you don't know any better.
4.It is a good thing that when you guy's draw one of those elusive "photo-tags" that after you have the tag un-filled
for so-long,one of us young,un-educated blood-thirsty,heathens gets to go shoot it for you.
I am done arguing this with you guy's.
Ps: Lions are like rattlesnakes,they are better when thier DEAD!!!!
LION'S ARE NOT RARE,IN UTAH!!!!!!!
S
Smiley
Guest
69 , your funny!
H
HoundDawgJr
Guest
This one is pretty simple for me. Just open a SFW magazine or any other local hunting magazine and you'll see that they are slamming big deer in Utah all over the place.
Two years ago when the deep snow came early they pounded big deer EVERYWHERE. I spent the next two months getting email after email of big deer people had killed in all parts of the state here.
I don't think the SFW, DWR or anybody had any idea there were that many nice mature bucks around until the snow pushed 'em down and they started pounding them.
Here is the deal. The guys who are out slamming big deer aren't sitting around bitching about too many lions. They know how to hunt big deer and kill big deer. The real successful deer hunters just go out and kill big deer consistently and those who can't ##### and moan about lions.
Here is a thought: Quit whining about too many predators and go kill some of these big bucks that are getting slammed EVERY FREAKIN' YEAR in Utah. When I see the deer that have been falling the past few years in Utah and then hear someone whining about predators it just makes me laugh.
But one thing is for sure... you dang sure won't ever kill one from a keyboard. They are out there and the lions aren't getting them. But one of your fellow hunters will next fall. Boom.
Happy trails.
Two years ago when the deep snow came early they pounded big deer EVERYWHERE. I spent the next two months getting email after email of big deer people had killed in all parts of the state here.
I don't think the SFW, DWR or anybody had any idea there were that many nice mature bucks around until the snow pushed 'em down and they started pounding them.
Here is the deal. The guys who are out slamming big deer aren't sitting around bitching about too many lions. They know how to hunt big deer and kill big deer. The real successful deer hunters just go out and kill big deer consistently and those who can't ##### and moan about lions.
Here is a thought: Quit whining about too many predators and go kill some of these big bucks that are getting slammed EVERY FREAKIN' YEAR in Utah. When I see the deer that have been falling the past few years in Utah and then hear someone whining about predators it just makes me laugh.
But one thing is for sure... you dang sure won't ever kill one from a keyboard. They are out there and the lions aren't getting them. But one of your fellow hunters will next fall. Boom.
Happy trails.
HunterHarry
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,002
Puffalow,
What the Hell?
Go back and read my statements.
I like and respect predators as much as any antlered game.
Where did you read otherwise???
All I said that is if you manage one species, you must manage them all.
The Deer vs Lion population is similar to the Lynx vs Snowshoe Hare relationship.
We as hunters compete for deer numbers, so do Lions.
If left undisturbed, the populations of both predator and prey species will enevitably crash.
Isn't that Biology 101?
I am an equal opportunity hunter.
I want huntable populations of ALL big game (predators too!) Species.
What the Hell?
Go back and read my statements.
I like and respect predators as much as any antlered game.
Where did you read otherwise???
All I said that is if you manage one species, you must manage them all.
The Deer vs Lion population is similar to the Lynx vs Snowshoe Hare relationship.
We as hunters compete for deer numbers, so do Lions.
If left undisturbed, the populations of both predator and prey species will enevitably crash.
Isn't that Biology 101?
I am an equal opportunity hunter.
I want huntable populations of ALL big game (predators too!) Species.
I
Ike
Guest
You're correct Harryhunter. I've visited Alaska three times over the years and spent a few days in Denali National Park. While I was there, I picked up a Park paper that had an article about the crashing grizzly bear population.
The article claimed the average bear was seventeen years old with few young bears in the population. After the bear study started, they collared around fourteen cubs out of den and only had two or three make it back in the fall. A good study biologist never speculates you know.....so what could be happening to the young bears?
Another study had been done in the eighties after the caribou herd in the Park had crashed from around 9,000 to around 1300 animals (you might have to forgive me cause I'm working off memory). Anyhow, those bears utilize the calves in the spring after coming out of den, and without the newborn calves the bear population was dieing off.
I suppose if we (people) weren't here none of that would matter, and is why we manage game--because we do care about having wildlife. Over the years I've heard lots about natural systems and Denali is about as close as we'll ever get to one in our lifetime. The truth is, natural systems do work but they might tend to eliminate some speices.
In the early years of the RAC in Utah I was lucky enough to be one of the first sportsmen representatives and served seven years. We were developing the deer and elk management plans back then. I remember the area Big Game Manager for our region asking us (in a private meeting), "so what do you want Utah's deer herds to look like ten years down the road."
Right away someone claimed they wanted a herd like we had in the 50s and 60s. Our regional biologist told him we couldn't kill enough coyotes to achieve that without poison, which was federally outlawed in 1971. DWR told us public values have changed and we are going to have some lions and bears and the deer herds were just gonna have to be smaller than that. He went on to say "we think we can have a herd like we had in the mid-eighties."
That was the plan we passed. Values have changed, and lions, bears and coyotes are appreciated by different groups, although a smaller group than the deer hunters. Another thing I learned after sitting on the RAC through those years is that everybody wants more, bigger, better and cheaper.
If a person is really lucky in life they get a chance to view wildlife from both sides of the fence.
Keep'em treed!
the ikester
The article claimed the average bear was seventeen years old with few young bears in the population. After the bear study started, they collared around fourteen cubs out of den and only had two or three make it back in the fall. A good study biologist never speculates you know.....so what could be happening to the young bears?
Another study had been done in the eighties after the caribou herd in the Park had crashed from around 9,000 to around 1300 animals (you might have to forgive me cause I'm working off memory). Anyhow, those bears utilize the calves in the spring after coming out of den, and without the newborn calves the bear population was dieing off.
I suppose if we (people) weren't here none of that would matter, and is why we manage game--because we do care about having wildlife. Over the years I've heard lots about natural systems and Denali is about as close as we'll ever get to one in our lifetime. The truth is, natural systems do work but they might tend to eliminate some speices.
In the early years of the RAC in Utah I was lucky enough to be one of the first sportsmen representatives and served seven years. We were developing the deer and elk management plans back then. I remember the area Big Game Manager for our region asking us (in a private meeting), "so what do you want Utah's deer herds to look like ten years down the road."
Right away someone claimed they wanted a herd like we had in the 50s and 60s. Our regional biologist told him we couldn't kill enough coyotes to achieve that without poison, which was federally outlawed in 1971. DWR told us public values have changed and we are going to have some lions and bears and the deer herds were just gonna have to be smaller than that. He went on to say "we think we can have a herd like we had in the mid-eighties."
That was the plan we passed. Values have changed, and lions, bears and coyotes are appreciated by different groups, although a smaller group than the deer hunters. Another thing I learned after sitting on the RAC through those years is that everybody wants more, bigger, better and cheaper.
If a person is really lucky in life they get a chance to view wildlife from both sides of the fence.
Keep'em treed!
the ikester
HunterHarry
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,002
Thanks Guys.
No hard feelings.
HH
No hard feelings.
HH
H
huntindude
Guest
Any of you guys who don't think lions hurt the big game numbers I invite you to hunt here in Oregon. in 1994 the anti's banned the use of hounds on lion and bear. we had good deer hunting and great elk hunting at that time but now the deer should go on the endangered list and the elk in some units are so few ODFW has stopped the cow tags. we have lions up the waazoo and crappy hunting, give me a break, that's why I hunt in your states because lions already ate our herds.
I
Ike
Guest
talk them into letting me bring my hounds and I'll come help you slim down that lion population in Oregon.
ike
ike
Ah c'mon Sniper69, you can't leave, we're having too much fun here!
If you were around 15 to 20 years ago then you know what I'm saying is true......assuming you weren't still dragging around a diaper full of sh!t at the time of course!
Where did I read that study that came out last summer by Dr. Micheal Wolfe, Bill Bates, and that other sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now) that said that at the current harvest rate, Utah's cougar population was unsustainable?? Kinda refutes your statement about an exploding lion population ehh '69? But what do they know, forget that fact that they are some of the most recognizable experts on the big cats, I'm sure their tree hugging mentality has clouded their scientiffic judgement.
Ike touched on what I was trying to say earlier in this thread, that wildlife management philosophies have changed from what they were 50 years ago. It's no longer just about raising up game species to maximize hunter harvest, but creating a biologically diverse ecosystem where a multitude of wildlife species can flourish. You may not agree, but I don't see it reverting back.
BTW Sniper, I got a kick out of you complaining about the number of hound doggers down here, this is the cougar/bear forum after all. Thanks for making my day!
If you were around 15 to 20 years ago then you know what I'm saying is true......assuming you weren't still dragging around a diaper full of sh!t at the time of course!
Where did I read that study that came out last summer by Dr. Micheal Wolfe, Bill Bates, and that other sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now) that said that at the current harvest rate, Utah's cougar population was unsustainable?? Kinda refutes your statement about an exploding lion population ehh '69? But what do they know, forget that fact that they are some of the most recognizable experts on the big cats, I'm sure their tree hugging mentality has clouded their scientiffic judgement.
Ike touched on what I was trying to say earlier in this thread, that wildlife management philosophies have changed from what they were 50 years ago. It's no longer just about raising up game species to maximize hunter harvest, but creating a biologically diverse ecosystem where a multitude of wildlife species can flourish. You may not agree, but I don't see it reverting back.
BTW Sniper, I got a kick out of you complaining about the number of hound doggers down here, this is the cougar/bear forum after all. Thanks for making my day!
H
huntindude
Guest
Ike,
I'd love that, it would take about 5 min. to be on a big tom. believe it or not it's so bad that FNWS has $250,000 for sheep programs in Oregon but they say until we control the lions they aren't going to give it to ODFW for cat food. in the law the state can hire houndsmen to control problem cats but ODFW wont do it unless safty is involved . there have been some trys to turn this around but until we get a Gov. in the state capitol who's not a piece of crap we don't have the support. this is a real problem, no joke.
I'd love that, it would take about 5 min. to be on a big tom. believe it or not it's so bad that FNWS has $250,000 for sheep programs in Oregon but they say until we control the lions they aren't going to give it to ODFW for cat food. in the law the state can hire houndsmen to control problem cats but ODFW wont do it unless safty is involved . there have been some trys to turn this around but until we get a Gov. in the state capitol who's not a piece of crap we don't have the support. this is a real problem, no joke.
I
Ike
Guest
I'm sorry to hear that huntindude, but I understand your problem. I've been around awhile and watched what happened to California on lions, Colorado on bears, and to you guys up there in Oregon on the big cats. There's nothing wrong with having lots of cats if the hounddoggers are getting their share becaseu taht population will shrink in notime--it doesn't take long for a few good packs of hounds to run down lots of lion! I realize it doesn't take very many lions living on s sheep herd to wipe it out, and anybody that doesn't admit that doesn't know anything about cats or sheep. But I don't hunt sheep and I do hunt lions, so to eat his own I guess.
Politics and the public have gotten their teeth into different areas on wildliife management and we the hunters have paid the price. I just got an email from SFW saying the wolves were going to go off the T&E speices list in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho but not in Utah. Wildlife issues have always been a fight for the people who enjoy them no matter which speicies you talk about.
the ikester
Politics and the public have gotten their teeth into different areas on wildliife management and we the hunters have paid the price. I just got an email from SFW saying the wolves were going to go off the T&E speices list in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho but not in Utah. Wildlife issues have always been a fight for the people who enjoy them no matter which speicies you talk about.
the ikester
I
Ike
Guest
"so to each his own"....sorry for the typo guess I should re-read before shipping into cyber space huh!
S
Sniper69
Guest
Allright Kevyboy,
One last post.
I was not dragging a diaper full of s##t around then,I wouldn't let you follow me that closley.Then or now!
KD:Where did I read that study that came out last summer by Dr. Micheal Wolfe, Bill Bates, and that other sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now)
Are these the same "wildlife wizards" that managed the fishlake elk herd down to virtually nothing???
In the DWR's Defense they claimed that "only 25 hunters returned thier hunter survey card with a confirmed harvest".Therefore they kept issuing antlerless tags.
When in reality,even Stevie Wonder & Ronnie Milsap could have seen more elk harvested in that unit by driving the boundies on any given weekend.
Did your experts credentials help that particular elk herd then???NO!
How about the Bighorn sheep that were transplanted onto the Nebo in the 80's.Geuss what happened to them,mostly predation.
Since then they have re-transplanted it again.Thank goodness!
Or that have had the Thousandlake mountain in a draw area for 15+ years,to only produce the occasional bigbuck??
It's a "Predator Pit"!!!!
What about the ongoing observation of lion's & Bighorn's in the stansbury mountain's????You should read-it.
Remember when they re-opened the Henry's for deer(2000)
That year the government trapper harvested around 50 pair(100)
Coyotes from the plane off of that one unit.
What kind of "Balance" or "biologically diverse ecosystem" do you think they were trying to achieve then???HMMM Less predators!!!!
Let's think about the wolf issue.They are a predator.
What has happened to the elk herd's in Montana & Wyoming.
I personally know Ranchers/guides who are out of the guidine business because of wolves.
One told me "The wolves kill a cow elk eat the milk bag out of it,then find another".
The wolf re-introduction is the first step in replacing the hunter(you&I).More predators help expidite that replacement as well.
These are a small example of the mistakes/misunderstanding's of
the public perception of what is reality.
Eventhough new wildlife management trends are different,doesn't make them right.
As far as the, sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now),The one who kind of looks like John Denver,I believe he is a state wildlife biologist in the southern region.Who a few years back stood up in a rac meeting with a hundred reason's NOT to do his job(A suggested transplant of elk to replenish the herd).
It was a very sad,pathetic display of a human being!!!
Go get Hatch's muleycrazy video's.
There is a very small example of of what is taking place in the field.Keep in mind that that is one guy,one area,one chance of finding what get's killed by lion's.
A few square miles in a whole state.
Or do you think that when a deer know's there's a lion around,
they just kill therselves and volintarily break thier own neck???
As far as the houndsmen.I am not complaining about them it seems to be that not everyone on here is a true houndsman.
Some of these guy's aren't very "in-tune" with what really takes place,some times it shows.
Just because,somebody buy's a cowboy hat,doesn't make them a cowboy!!!!
HounddawgJR.
I don't doubt your passion for the sport.
I hope you are not suggesting that I start deer hunting in Feb.
Nov./Dec. would be more preferable.(Just teasing)
I am however counting the days until I can hunt in lots of different states.
During the winter months I do find myself on the "keyboard" a little more.
It is very entertaining to see what kind of theory's,and beliefs some of these mutton-headed magazine jockey's come up with.
By the way;The average muledeer score of my livingroom is
5-bucks average 190+.
Plus 2 dead lion's I can take pictures of!!
Kevyboy,
I am moving on to broader horizon's
So stew on this for a while.
I have one suggestion for you.
"Clean the lint out of your belly-button,
It's clouding your vision"!!!!
Remember:LION'S ARE NOT RARE IN UTAH!!!!
One last post.
I was not dragging a diaper full of s##t around then,I wouldn't let you follow me that closley.Then or now!
KD:Where did I read that study that came out last summer by Dr. Micheal Wolfe, Bill Bates, and that other sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now)
Are these the same "wildlife wizards" that managed the fishlake elk herd down to virtually nothing???
In the DWR's Defense they claimed that "only 25 hunters returned thier hunter survey card with a confirmed harvest".Therefore they kept issuing antlerless tags.
When in reality,even Stevie Wonder & Ronnie Milsap could have seen more elk harvested in that unit by driving the boundies on any given weekend.
Did your experts credentials help that particular elk herd then???NO!
How about the Bighorn sheep that were transplanted onto the Nebo in the 80's.Geuss what happened to them,mostly predation.
Since then they have re-transplanted it again.Thank goodness!
Or that have had the Thousandlake mountain in a draw area for 15+ years,to only produce the occasional bigbuck??
It's a "Predator Pit"!!!!
What about the ongoing observation of lion's & Bighorn's in the stansbury mountain's????You should read-it.
Remember when they re-opened the Henry's for deer(2000)
That year the government trapper harvested around 50 pair(100)
Coyotes from the plane off of that one unit.
What kind of "Balance" or "biologically diverse ecosystem" do you think they were trying to achieve then???HMMM Less predators!!!!
Let's think about the wolf issue.They are a predator.
What has happened to the elk herd's in Montana & Wyoming.
I personally know Ranchers/guides who are out of the guidine business because of wolves.
One told me "The wolves kill a cow elk eat the milk bag out of it,then find another".
The wolf re-introduction is the first step in replacing the hunter(you&I).More predators help expidite that replacement as well.
These are a small example of the mistakes/misunderstanding's of
the public perception of what is reality.
Eventhough new wildlife management trends are different,doesn't make them right.
As far as the, sandy haired dude (I can't remember his name right now),The one who kind of looks like John Denver,I believe he is a state wildlife biologist in the southern region.Who a few years back stood up in a rac meeting with a hundred reason's NOT to do his job(A suggested transplant of elk to replenish the herd).
It was a very sad,pathetic display of a human being!!!
Go get Hatch's muleycrazy video's.
There is a very small example of of what is taking place in the field.Keep in mind that that is one guy,one area,one chance of finding what get's killed by lion's.
A few square miles in a whole state.
Or do you think that when a deer know's there's a lion around,
they just kill therselves and volintarily break thier own neck???
As far as the houndsmen.I am not complaining about them it seems to be that not everyone on here is a true houndsman.
Some of these guy's aren't very "in-tune" with what really takes place,some times it shows.
Just because,somebody buy's a cowboy hat,doesn't make them a cowboy!!!!
HounddawgJR.
I don't doubt your passion for the sport.
I hope you are not suggesting that I start deer hunting in Feb.
Nov./Dec. would be more preferable.(Just teasing)
I am however counting the days until I can hunt in lots of different states.
During the winter months I do find myself on the "keyboard" a little more.
It is very entertaining to see what kind of theory's,and beliefs some of these mutton-headed magazine jockey's come up with.
By the way;The average muledeer score of my livingroom is
5-bucks average 190+.
Plus 2 dead lion's I can take pictures of!!
Kevyboy,
I am moving on to broader horizon's
So stew on this for a while.
I have one suggestion for you.
"Clean the lint out of your belly-button,
It's clouding your vision"!!!!
Remember:LION'S ARE NOT RARE IN UTAH!!!!
LOL Sniper69, you're preahing to the chior about now about DWR ineptitude my friend, one has to look no farther than what they've done to the lion population in the last 10 years to see mismanagement in action!! Thanks for making my point for me. :*
Nah, Micheal Wolfe is a professor up at USU but Bill Bates still works for the Division.......I think he's in the Price office now. John Denver's twin is the one running the show on the current lion study on Monroe Mountain and Kennecott as part of his doctoral dissertation. I participated in a lion study back in '97 & '98 headed by Dr. Wolfe where we caught lions to collect DNA samples. I worked with Bill Bates at Hardware Ranch WMA in '77 when he was still an intern; we were a couple of hay haulin', post hole diggin', lint pickin' sonsabitches!
You know, if we're using damage to agriculture as a justification to wipe out wildlife, then perhaps we ought to take a look at the damage done by deer and elk! A home owner in Logan had her prize shrubbery eaten by deer! A farmer in Heber lost 30% of his summer alfalfa crop to foraging ungulates! A cattle rancher in Salina had elk come through a take out a huge section of his fence! An apple grower in Spanish Fork lost nearly all of his saplings to hungry deer! Maybe as a favor to agriculture we ought to wipe out these offending wildlife species!! Now that's Sniper logic isn't it??
Here's some more examples of Spiper logic at work for you: My buddy saw 3 deer on the Deep Creeks and the tracks of 2 others........conclusion; there's too many deer. A homeowner in Pleasant Grove had bighorn sheep come off the mountain and right into her backyard........conclusion; there's too many sheep!! My neighbor smacked an elk with her car coming throgh Logan Canyon last month.....conclusion; there's too many elk!
I mean c'mon.....if we're going to apply that kind of anecdotal evidence to one species, why not be fair and apply it to all!! This is too funny, I hope you don't get mad and leave us Sniper69.
You'll have to excuse me now while I change my John Denver CD and relight my bong! :7
Nah, Micheal Wolfe is a professor up at USU but Bill Bates still works for the Division.......I think he's in the Price office now. John Denver's twin is the one running the show on the current lion study on Monroe Mountain and Kennecott as part of his doctoral dissertation. I participated in a lion study back in '97 & '98 headed by Dr. Wolfe where we caught lions to collect DNA samples. I worked with Bill Bates at Hardware Ranch WMA in '77 when he was still an intern; we were a couple of hay haulin', post hole diggin', lint pickin' sonsabitches!
You know, if we're using damage to agriculture as a justification to wipe out wildlife, then perhaps we ought to take a look at the damage done by deer and elk! A home owner in Logan had her prize shrubbery eaten by deer! A farmer in Heber lost 30% of his summer alfalfa crop to foraging ungulates! A cattle rancher in Salina had elk come through a take out a huge section of his fence! An apple grower in Spanish Fork lost nearly all of his saplings to hungry deer! Maybe as a favor to agriculture we ought to wipe out these offending wildlife species!! Now that's Sniper logic isn't it??
Here's some more examples of Spiper logic at work for you: My buddy saw 3 deer on the Deep Creeks and the tracks of 2 others........conclusion; there's too many deer. A homeowner in Pleasant Grove had bighorn sheep come off the mountain and right into her backyard........conclusion; there's too many sheep!! My neighbor smacked an elk with her car coming throgh Logan Canyon last month.....conclusion; there's too many elk!
I mean c'mon.....if we're going to apply that kind of anecdotal evidence to one species, why not be fair and apply it to all!! This is too funny, I hope you don't get mad and leave us Sniper69.
You'll have to excuse me now while I change my John Denver CD and relight my bong! :7
