Jim Shockey, crying? Whining? Or weaseling?

[2lumpy]

It would have been ethical to call personally every paid up hunter and explain his situation and try to reach an individual compromise ? Phone calls don't cost that much and most people want to settle differences...a win/win ? With the news that the border will not reopen until July 21 I expect many outfitters are going to go broke this year.

I would think a lot have...... at least for most, when they couldn’t hunt last year had some sort of visit. Thinks are worse now however. Hopeful they will call again. Open communication makes a huge difference in most cases.

 

[roadrunner]

But what if it's a guy who scrimped and saved for 20 years, setting aside $500 per year.? And that was in addition to spending money on his wife, kids, vacations, colleges, sports, vehicles, insurance, home, utilities, flood damage, wind damage, hospital bills, etc... Its an account that he sacrificed other things for himself in order to build. And when he cashed in, Covid hit and took 20 years of saving from him.? Isn't that side of the story worth a little more than 2 paragraphs.? Maybe.?

Probably, but the whole point to the article was to prime it's readers to appreciate the side of the outfitter and for its readers to understand that crippling the outfitter industry will hurt opportunities for years to come.

Just like it was the OP's intent to prime anyone to respond the same way they interpreted the article, which clearly has no language about "I", "too bad", "you gambled and lost", "you hunter's owe us", "you depend on us, we don't depend on you", etc. etc.

The only sob story is that everyone lost last year thanks to idiotic actions implemented by bureaucrats and politicians on handling a pandemic and the mass economic fallout it will have, that by the way, will be studied in business schools to know better how to react next time...

 

[BrianID]

This is a sad article but does bring up a conversation that needs to be had between outfitters and clients. I think Shockey's intention isn't to offend clients but help them understand the challenges the outfitters faces. Unfortunately I think he ended up offending many of us even though that wasn't his intention.

Shockey knows that for him and other outfitters to maintain their reputation they have to give a 100% refund or allow clients to "roll over" their hunt to a different year at no additional cost. He could ask the clients to give an additional tip to offset his losses but it shouldn't be expected. He knows that this is the right thing to do but unfortunately there are some outfitters that cannot do this and would end up bankrupt. Even if Shockey has to "eat" $1,000,000 in losses for the year, it would be a good business decision for him to make in the long run.

Any outfitter that doesn't treat their clients fairly will without a doubt suffer financially in the future because of this.

The other big error by the outfitter described in the article (already pointed out by many here) is making bad business decisions. It was nice that the outfitter still paid all his employees even though they were shut down in 2020 but he should have either had insurance to cover the losses, savings to cover the losses or laid everyone off. He could have also canceled his other business insurance or worked out a decreased rate last year. If he laid off all his employees, it may come back to burn him a year later when he tries to hire new people.

The Canadian Government should also take some responsibility in this. The article mentions the outfitter still having to pay "government fees" last year. They should all refuse to pay those fees because the government is the one that shut down their business.

The other thing this article mentioned was that the boarder was shut more than 90 days before most clients hunts so for many of the hunts, the balance was still collected in April, May or June and they didn't know if the boarder would be open later in 2020. If you told your client in May that you would "roll over" their hunt to 2021 when you collected their money, you better follow through with it.

One thing is for sure, the economic downturn that we are going to see as a result from this pandemic will without a doubt decrease the number of clients looking to book hunts in future years. I hope the outfitters learned from their bad finacial mistakes are are financially ready for a recession.

I've been looking at booking some Canadian hunts and this article really makes me reconsider booking Canadian hunts. If we find out a bunch of clients get really bad deals from Canadian outfitters, there will be many less Americans looking at booking Canadian hunts in future years. The outfitters that treat their clients fair during this will be able to book hunts in the future. Outfitters that financially cannot or decide not to treat their clients fair, will have a very hard time booking future hunts.

 

[2lumpy]

One would think when they closed the border last year, all of the reputable outfitters talked to their clients. It would seem there must have been some sort of communication.

Then....... it would seem everyone went into a wait and see mode. I doubt anyone but the most pessimistic figured this mess would have been back on it’s feet, months ago. So...... until there was more clarity what was there to say?

At most it would been have, at best be a m guess and/or speculation on everybodies part.

A lot of time and ugly water has passed under the bridge, while everybodies waited....... and waited..... an waited. And worried!!!!

Then...... last week, all most everybody thought the curtain was coming down, so....... folks started to talk again, but it was all still based on speculation. But, Shockey has thrown the door open to the “now what”, but , as of today, it’s all back to speculation again. I would, expect, for one thing........ the clients/customers now, thanks to Shockey, has let everybody know what’s happening in the Canadian outfitter. Seems that’s a good thing.

If nothing more, it’s most like likely stimulated the parties to start talking again and get what alternatives there are out on the table. Now there is time to try to come together, each outfitter with each client.

Seems to me the buyers should not shoot the messager, even if he is one of apparent enemy, so to speak. He is kind of letting you know what to prepare for, one way or another. It seems that someone needed to do that.

It’s hard for me to believe most clients have not been communicating but maybe not.

I wonder how many MM members have bought and paid in full for a yet to delivered hunt or we are mostly speculating on the worse even thought we don’t really know what most clients/outfitters have worked out already.

Just saying.

 

[Katoom]

I have always liked Jim’s TV shows and would rather have enjoyed meeting him sometime. But there are a few head scratchers in this article. One is that he seems to think that an outfitted hunt of 10K or more, is simply your “annual vacation budget.” For many or most, it might be their once in a lifetime investment in an outfitted International hunt. May not change the legal mumbo jumbo, but no need for him to trivialize the potential loss to the clients.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I am guessing for the most part outfitters have talked to their clients. My outfitter talked with me in April, May and June. The reason we talked early and often was to make a go or no-go decision, he didn't want to burn through my deposit preparing for a hunt that wasn't going to happen. I agreed to pay the 2023 hunt price, essentially as Jim said taking a credit for what I have paid. My outfitter clearly talked about the costs (some of which Jim mentioned in the article). The point I am making is it shouldn't be Jim Shockey writing this article, these conversations should be happen between outfitter and client, and should have already happen. I also think the Canadian government needs to do their part as well, since they are the biggest cause of this mess.

My friend you had a hunt books told him the outfitter said they were considering no refunds on the deposit and basically they aren't rolling the hunt forward. We will see if they go forward with that but it WILL absolutely impact their business going forward. Just mentioning it has had an impact.

From what I am seeing and talking with a few outfitters, some are taking deposits on hunts all the way out to 2026. There isn't a lack of demand right now, for good hunts with good outfitters. As long as hunting can happen this fall (thats a big if) it seems like many of the good ones will weather the storm.

Time will tell, I think Jim could have focused on the communication aspect rather than a cost perspective. I know I saved 8 years for my first sheep hunt in the Yukon and to say well you lost out on a vacation is a little dismissive to the effort that hunters go through to make these hunts happen.

 

[BrianID]

Livingthedream,

I agree, Shockey should have focus more on the communication between clients and outfitters and less on how clients just need to accept that they are going to pay significantly more or loose their entire deposit. I think Shockey knows that the Canadian governments decisions are really going to hurt the relationship between outfitters and clients. The sad part is, many of the liberals in Canadian government think no hunting is a good thing.

 

[roadrunner]

The Canadian Government should also take some responsibility in this.

The Canadian government owns the full weight of this. The problem with government is they never have to suffer the full wrath and ramifications of their stupidity and never have to be accountable for their actions.

I hope the outfitters learned from their bad finacial mistakes are are financially ready for a recession.

It only became a bad financial decision because of an unforeseen event. Until then, it was normal business.

Normal business was to secure rentals, reservations, leases, and anything else for the hunter so the hunter doesn't have to. That's why you pay an outfitter to do it for you. You essentially hired them for a service wrapped up in your deposit.

In an outfitting business, you are either paying for your event in advance for the whole experience or you're paying for the last guy's experience, just as he paid for the guy before him.

When a charter fishing guide figures his price point, he has to replace spent bait and terminal tackle from the previous guys trip for you to have on yours. He paid for that with his balance when he showed up. You will do the same. The non-refundable booking fee is to replace the lost opportunity should the client not show that someone else may have.

That's just how the business works.

All business expenses fall back onto the customer, like it or not.

 

[roadrunner]

Livingthedream,

I agree, Shockey should have focus more on the communication between clients and outfitters and less on how clients just need to accept that they are going to pay significantly more or loose their entire deposit. I think Shockey knows that the Canadian governments decisions are really going to hurt the relationship between outfitters and clients. The sad part is, many of the liberals in Canadian government think no hunting is a good thing.

Shockey's explaining why you may not get it back...

 

[2lumpy]

The Canadian government owns the full weight of this. The problem with government is they never have to suffer the full wrath and ramifications of their stupidity and never have to be accountable for their actions.



It only became a bad financial decision because of an unforeseen event. Until then, it was normal business.

Normal business was to secure rentals, reservations, leases, and anything else for the hunter so the hunter doesn't have to. That's why you pay an outfitter to do it for you. You essentially hired them for a service wrapped up in your deposit.

In an outfitting business, you are either paying for your event in advance for the whole experience or you're paying for the last guy's experience, just as he paid for the guy before him.

When a charter fishing guide figures his price point, he has to replace spent bait and terminal tackle from the previous guys trip for you to have on yours. He paid for that with his balance when he showed up. You will do the same. The non-refundable booking fee is to replace the lost opportunity should the client not show that someone else may have.

That's just how the business works.

All business expenses fall back onto the customer, like it or not.

Exactly.

If outfitters purchase insurance to cover these kinds of casualties, the price of the hunt goes up, plus a little for overhead markup.

The more accessories we add to a new truck, the greater the cost, right down to the floor matts.

If you ask for lodging, that’s an extra. Food, that’s an extra, a pre-scout, extra, a skinner, a tracker, a boat, a herd of horses, a plane ride, all extra. Casualty insurance, extra.

Like some have said, this hurricane changed how things will be done in the future....... but like roadrunner said, every future client is going to pay more, because when the price of eggs goes up so does your cost to hunt.

No difference...... if clients want a safety net, it’s just going to add to everybody’s cost. Now, instead of going 10 times, for less, it will be 10 times, for more, whether you want eggs or not.

 

[BrianID]

It only became a bad financial decision because of an unforeseen event. Until then, it was normal business.

Everyone should prepare themselves financially for unforeseen events. There will be outfitters that financial survive this and some that don't. The outfitters that have not communicated well with their clients and think their "rich" clients should pay extra for the bad fortune are going to have a very hard time booking future clients. There will be some very interesting online reviews to read on Canadian outfitters next year at this time.

I've delt with bad contractors and they come up with the same excuses. One contractor did terrible work that he wasn't qualified for and attempted to replaces his poor work but totally failed. He then told me he needed more money because he needed to replace the supplies that I had purchased already that he destroyed. Some people are not good at business and should fail. The real world is tough and I say let capitalism clean up the garbage businesses.

 

[BrianID]

Shockey's explaining why you may not get it back...

The problem with Shockey's delivery is that he is telling clients they are responsible for a majority of the misfortune because they have "disposable" income. Just because a business owner overextends himself, he shouldn't expect his customers to pay extra for his misfortune. Many contractors overextend themselves like this as well. It doesn't mean it is a good idea just because many businesses are run this way. Unexpected things happen all the time in all kinds of business, those that overextend themselves have a difficult time staying in business when unexpected things happen.

 

[elkassassin]

Act Of God My Ass!

F'N China Pulling their BS Again!

Stick around!

It'll get Worse!

 

[LIK2HNT]

BrianID
“ Some people are not good at business and should fail. The real world is tough and I say let capitalism clean up the garbage businesses.”
So true, but people are starting to think like government and expect someone else to always pick up the bill. Government messes up, just tax people more. This attitude has to stop.

 

[DW]

BrianID
“ Some people are not good at business and should fail. The real world is tough and I say let capitalism clean up the garbage businesses.”
So true, but people are starting to think like government and expect someone else to always pick up the bill. Government messes up, just tax people more. This attitude has to stop.

Amen amigo!

 

[Homer]

...after actually reading the article...I am way more sympathetic to those outfitter's plight....

no winners for sure....

and.....BUY TRAVEL INSURANCE!!!!!

 

[Homer]

....and "force majeure"?....bullshit..... unless you consider government god....and too many do...

 

[Bluehair]

....and "force majeure"?....bullshit..... unless you consider government god....and too many do...

I understand your point and agree, however it is usually the goobermint who determines what God intended in your contract. I think God left town a while ago, so the lawyers assume that role now, right?

 

[2lumpy]

....and "force majeure"?....bullshit..... unless you consider government god....and too many do...

Well....... they act like they are, if you’re gonna play the part ya aught to cover your bets. Except..... it’s the poeole’s money not the pseudogod’s.

 

[wetmule]

There's an old saying "the customer is always right" and another "Caveat Emptor" Let the buyer beware.
I fall a bit more on the side that most successful businesses are dependent on the happiness of the customer. If your customer ain't happy... you're going to run out of customers real quick, especially in the service industry.
Shockey to me, comes off pretty weaselly, but both parties/sides are in tough spots. If it were me I'd be refunding every cent and or moving forward at the appropriate time with well explained and agreed to inflationary or unforeseen cost increases. No way would I keep my clients money if I didn't provide the service...
The problem like almost everything in society leads back to the gooberment creating unnecessary problems. Read those contracts

 

[deadibob]

In your zeal to hurl insults, did you perhaps miss this part???

Outdoor Life: Hunting, Fishing, Gear Reviews, Survival Tips

Expert hunting and fishing tips, new gear reviews, and everything else you need to know about outdoor adventure. This is Outdoor Life.

www.outdoorlife.com

Far as I know, OL still has an editor just as it did when I worked for them 40 years ago.

Over my 50 years in the writing business, I never "starved" for money and retired quite comfortably more than 2 years ago. So I guess I was just "spineless."

I would offer to sell you one of the Coues books, but it was quite popular so we've sold out of them. You can probably find a used copy somewhere online, tho. As for my articles, you might find something in your vast library.

For reference of where you might look, this below from my profile on MM:

Tony Mandile lives in Glendale, Ariz. and has wandered the waters and woods for more than 55 years in pursuit of game and fish. During that time, he has traveled around North America to fish or hunt in 39 states and 10 Canadian provinces. He has also hunted and fished in Africa, New Zealand and Mexico.

Mandile began a part-time writing career in 1969 and has been a full-time freelance outdoor writer/photographer for 38 years. His 30-year active membership in the Outdoor Writers Association of America (OWAA) included three years on the board of directors. He has also served on the board of the Western Outdoor Writers (WOW) and the Professional Outdoor Media Association (POMA), which he helped create in 2005. He was a contributing editor for ARIZONA HUNTER & ANGLER magazine for 10 years, and spent seven years as the Arizona Editor for OUTDOOR LIFE magazine. Mandile wrote his book -- HOW TO HUNT COUES DEER -- with noted guide Duwane Adams in 2003, and the Arizona Game & Fish Commission selected him as "Outdoor Writer of the Year" for 2011.

More than 2,100 of his articles and 1,300 of his photos (50 covers) have appeared in OUTDOOR LIFE, FIELD & STREAM, SPORTS AFIELD, CABELA'S OUTFITTER JOURNAL, PETERSEN'S HUNTING, PETERSEN'S FISHING, AMERICAN HUNTER (NRA), DEER HUNTING, ROCKY MOUNTAIN GAME & FISH, CALIFORNIA G&F, WASHINGTON-OREGON G & F, ARIZONA HIGHWAYS, NORTH AMERICAN HUNTER, WHITETAILS UNLIMITED, NORTH AMERICAN WHITETAIL, OUTDOOR PHOTOGRAPHERS BIBLE, PENNSYLVANIA ANGLER, ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPORTSMAN, WESTERN OUTDOORS, BOWHUNTING WORLD, SOUTHWEST SPORTSMAN, SAFARI (SCI), ARIZONA WILDLIFE VIEWS, ARIZONA HUNTER & ANGLER, OUTDOORS UNLIMITED, several books and a few dozen other outdoor, conservation and travel publications.

Just because Outdoor Life published his article means nothing. Jim Shockey is not a full time writer and doesn't depend on writing to feed his family. He wouldn't have written something he didn't agree with as you say you have. He wrote this article of his own will because he is the most well known Canadian guide and outfitter, as such he is an (if not thee) Ambassador for the Canadian guided hunting industry. He did not write this tripe because an editor came up with the idea and pushed it on him. Nobody writes and publishes an article they disagree with unless they are dependent on that job for a living.

I'm sure you know Jim Zumbo well and probably remember the article that completely destroyed his writing career. His anti-AR15 article killed him. I talked to him at SHOT afterwards and man did he ever regret publishing that one. He even tried to walk it back afterwards with TV shows and articles of him shooting/hunting with AR's and finally "seeing the light". Well it was too little too late and he was finished. Too bad as he was a great guy and a good writer, one of the few who actually knew what he was talking about due to his background with a wildlife biology degree.

As far as Outdoor Life or any other hunting rag in the industry goes they have zero credibility and have been on life support since the late 1900's; O.L. has regurgitated the same articles for over the last 100 years. They are run by the advertising department, throw a few hundred bucks their way and buy a 1/8th or 1/16th page ad and they will write any article or any good review that you ask them to. If an outfitter wants good publicity to increase hunt bookings they offer a free or very discounted hunt to a writer or magazine. In exchange the outfitter gets a glowing article about their services and the phone starts ringing off the hook for bookings. I guarantee that's how you were able to go on most of your hunts, that is how it works for every magazine writer and it's the same way they are able to get firearms, bows and stacks of other hunting gear. THAT IN TRUTH IS HOW THE INDUSTRY WORKS!

You are always putting yourself out as the expert and I'm calling you out on your B.S. defense of Shockeys article. He will regret ever writing it and having it published. It won't ruin him because he could quit and walk away from the industry today as a rich man like very few others can but he will for sure feel the repercussions of it.

If your book was so popular and in demand you would have done reprints once you sold out of them, that's industry standard and that's what I do when I sell through a printing. If "Hunting Coues Deer" did so well why did you not publish more books? For such an impressive resume why have I only heard of you from tooting your own horn on here? OWAA is defunct (I was even a member at one time so that tells you how elite it was). POMA, well?.

As far as your resume goes, well you are a professional writer, not the least bit shy of braggadocio and that is one article that you have polished well.

 

[roadrunner]

Everyone should prepare themselves financially for unforeseen events. There will be outfitters that financial survive this and some that don't. The outfitters that have not communicated well with their clients and think their "rich" clients should pay extra for the bad fortune are going to have a very hard time booking future clients. There will be some very interesting online reviews to read on Canadian outfitters next year at this time.

I've delt with bad contractors and they come up with the same excuses. One contractor did terrible work that he wasn't qualified for and attempted to replaces his poor work but totally failed. He then told me he needed more money because he needed to replace the supplies that I had purchased already that he destroyed. Some people are not good at business and should fail. The real world is tough and I say let capitalism clean up the garbage businesses.

Except, in this case, the over extension wasn't a function of a risky business venture. The inherent problem lies with a stupid border closure and knee-jerk reaction that lasted months. Hundreds of businesses in NM closed because of that same exact reason, remember?

The other part is, per the article, the outfitter didn't provide a shoddy service. The unrecoverable funds are from the upfront payment of prepping for the hunter in the first place. I still can't find the part in the article where it mentions the outfitter used the money to pay for his own African hunt or whatever.

Imagine if the hunter was on the hook to set up everything themselves before they even came into town and then this happened. Same result except except the hunter doesn't only have one source to contact and try to recover money invested.

Did the hunter, in this case, make bad financial decisions? Not necessarily...

 

[mrc]

Do you all believe they paid all the guides? Do you believe they paid all the charter planes for not flying that’s included in the price of the hunt?Do you believe they paid the charter flights to fly out meat that’s included in the price of the hunt but there’s no meat to fly out? I believe they paid some key employees but that’s it.

 

[EVILNR]

Spent money they hadnt earned yet.
Dont want to man up and return it.

 

[mrc]

I hunted moose in the Yukon.The plane I was supposed to fly in on had a mechanical problem.They just called another charter service and got a flight from them. When it came time to fly out the lake we were on was froze over at one end. Plane couldn‘t fly us out so they called a helicopter. You think they pay all that ahead of time.

 

[2lumpy]

Do you all believe they paid all the guides? Do you believe they paid all the charter planes for not flying that’s included in the price of the hunt?Do you believe they paid the charter flights to fly out meat that’s included in the price of the hunt but there’s no meat to fly out? I believe they paid some key employees but that’s it.

No I don’t we believe they did, at least in all cases. I think we’re speaking in generalities and I personally think Shockey was too. I do think this has gone on for months however and for those outfitters that make most of not all their living outfitting, the overhead eventually eats up the savings and the deposits. In general....... that is not in every case, but in general, these guys, like most of us, had no idea this mess would last for as long as it has. Some, not all, keep paying the overhead and praying the border would reopen, the same as the gyms owns, the hair dressers and the restaurants. Some could start other business or go to work landscaping or trucking or whatever. Some couldn’t, they had horses to feed, hay to cut, etc but their loans for their consessions had to be paid, some of their help had to be paid, their home mortgage had to be paid, their property taxes had to be paid and the list goes on. Their overhead came due every month, and it’s been nearly 16 months and it’s still going one to this day.

Now...... are the scamps in the industry. Of course, same as all industry’s but most are just trying to operate a business and stay in business. It just so happens the reality of this business is a pay in advance for goods and services to be delivered later. They got catch, we all did to some degree or another. Some clients are going to loose all there investment, some loose some of there investment, some won’t loose a dime. The same can be true for the outfitters, in general.

The way I read Shockey’s article is his attempt at letting the hunting community know what’s coming down the road....... that is, almost everybody is going to take a punch in the guts, so........ get proactive and do what you can to protect as much of your investment as you can by knowing a head of time what your going to be dealing with.

I dont know the guy any better than most of the rest of you but he seems to try to promote our lifestyle and yes, he gets rewarded for it too. I’m okay with that, I sure as hell can’t do it.

I’m just trying to see this from both sides of the issue. I’m not naive enough to think some outfitters will take advantage of their clients..... but in general, I don’t think that’s the norm. But what do I know about the hearts of men?

 

[littlebull209338]

Depends on outfitter: some are all inclusive from point of departure; some hunter is charged for air fare in and out plus freight charges on meat & trophies. I really doubt that the air charters were paid in advance of trips flown.One needs to make sure of all the details as these add on charges can be substantial. A $20,000 hunt can turn into a $25,000 hunt real quick. If you know going in that there are going to be add ons it is no big deal. It is common practice to tip guide, packer and camp staff. I really was flexible on tips an excellent effort got 12-15% a poor effort got maybe 5% and an explanation on why the tip was what it was. One thing I always tried to remember was that I was a guest and tried to treat everyone with respect and kindness. Treat everyone like you would like to be treated. You will never go wrong.

 

[Homer]

“ But what do I know about the hearts of men?”....

A fair amount it appears...

 

[roadrunner]

Do you all believe they paid all the guides? Do you believe they paid all the charter planes for not flying that’s included in the price of the hunt?Do you believe they paid the charter flights to fly out meat that’s included in the price of the hunt but there’s no meat to fly out? I believe they paid some key employees but that’s it.

Doesn't matter what anyone believes. However, if an outfitter requires a deposit, couldn't an air taxi service require it as well?

An outfitter that uses horses for you as the hunter has reoccurring bills to pay and you as the hunter absolutely are obligated to pay those expenses.

 

[Homer]

A decent corral of non man killer horses is EXPENSIVE ....and year ‘round

 

[littlebull209338]

The very reason most outfitters have gotten away from horses in about every local. The liability of horses is also a very strong reason. Jim is a better writer than this article displays....he stuck his foot in his mouth clear up to his ...check book. Life is a big gamble..sometimes you loose.

 

[Bluehair]

From my Canadian outfitters mouth: “I can buy lots of horses for what I get for that ‘bou.”

Plenty of outfitter expenses are capital improvement projects, not just keeping diesel in the genset.

If you pay someone for something you didn’t get, “tough chit“ is not an easy answer to swallow.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Just because Outdoor Life published his article means nothing. Jim Shockey is not a full time writer and doesn't depend on writing to feed his family.

Thank you for all your insight about the outdoor writing business & me. Seems I learn something new every day.

Have a great weekend, and happy father's day if it applies.

P.S. Both Zumbo & OWAA are alive & well, far from "ruined" or "defunct." And POMA now boasts nearly 400 members.

 

[Homer]

The very reason most outfitters have gotten away from horses in about every local. The liability of horses is also a very strong reason. Jim is a better writer than this article displays....he stuck his foot in his mouth clear up to his ...check book. Life is a big gamble..sometimes you loose.

And the biggest gamblers ignored the trip insurance suggestion....

 

[Cooper]

1) Wasn’t it the Canadian government who shut the border down? Not like the hunter was not willing to show up.
2) Insurance should have been had by the business to cover exactly this type of situation.
3) I hope every one of these outfitters that keeps their clients $ goes bankrupt. It will make more for the properly run businesses.
4) Wonder what inflation number they use. If the Canadian government says inflation was 5-7% and the outfitter is changing 20-30% to move your hunt a year?
5) Go ahead and raise your future prices. Eventually you will price yourselves out of most clients. Hunting will continue on even if Canada has zero outfitters. Might even be better for it!

Yea don’t let the fact of the border being shutdown take away from the articles boob-a-thon!!

 

[roadrunner]

LOL
No need for me to choose- they are similar situations. And yes it is basically theft of people's deposits.
Bad decisions have consequences- These outfitters sold services /hunts that they couldn't afford float if a bad market force entered the game. Now they want a bailout or whatever you want to call it.

LOL even louder. TX has nothing to do with Canada.

What's even more funny is some people have no idea how businesses are ran. No business is fully funded all the time. That would be a bad business decision...

 

[mrc]

I hunted Kodiak Island in 2005 with an outfitter that I have 100% percent confidence that he would not just keep my money. I hunted the Alaska Peninsula for moose during 9/11. Game warden flew in to tell us the U.S. had been attacked and commercial air was grounded.The outfitter was really bummed because he had two guys coming after me and he hadn’t gotten full payment from them yet.He knew they’d never get in. He would not have given them any money back. After the two hunts I would have recommended the Kodiak outfitter to anyone and the Peninsula outfitter to no one.

 

[HornyMan]

Enter from the left stage the balance of capitalism and economics. Future hunters will most likely add to contracts or require from outfitters a refund policy or they won't book with them. It wouldn't surprise me to see booking drop in Canada due to the way Covid played out with hunters. Most of us book hunts based on reviews of other hunters. Hard to have repeat or new customers if you kill your reputation over refunds.
Sometimes you have to "eat it" for the longevity of your business.

 

[mrc]

From what I’ve found the best outfitters get very little publicity.They don’t advertise,they don’t take 120 hunters,and they’re booked for three or four years out. They usually have great areas and high success rates. I’d stay away from the big guys!

 

[tracker12]

Looks like the US hunter gets screwed again just like when the Caribou hunting in Canada went TU.

 

[Homer]

In a perfect world.....all deposits and final payments would be held in an escrow account until the hunt is completed.......then released to the outfitter.....

 

[mrc]

You would think that outfitters in the Yukon would have great incentive for you to be successful. Did you know the government allocates tags to them.If they get 7 sheep tags they can kill 7 sheep. If they book 7 sheep hunters and only 4 are successful they can rebook 3 three more sheep hunters that year. 10 sheep hunts with 7 tags. To bad those three guys didn’t get one! You have to be careful who you book with. By the way 7 of those sheep hunters will give outstanding reviews. Three of them will just be poor hunters.

 

[Homer]

You would think that outfitters in the Yukon would have great incentive for you to be successful. Did you know the government allocates tags to them.If they get 7 sheep tags they can kill 7 sheep. If they book 7 sheep hunters and only 4 are successful they can rebook 3 three more sheep hunters that year. 10 sheep hunts with 7 tags. To bad those three guys didn’t get one! You have to be careful who you book with. By the way 7 of those sheep hunters will give outstanding reviews. Three of them will just be poor hunters.

and......the outfitter doesn't get to save them for next year to roll hunters over.....

 

[mrc]

I think it’s pretty easy to have sheep hunters on call if there’s a chance they can get in that year. Its not like sheep season is only two weeks.

 

[tracker12]

With that scenario might be good to be on the waiting list. That piece of information is very interesting

 

[BrianID]

Except, in this case, the over extension wasn't a function of a risky business venture. The inherent problem lies with a stupid border closure and knee-jerk reaction that lasted months. Hundreds of businesses in NM closed because of that same exact reason, remember?

The other part is, per the article, the outfitter didn't provide a shoddy service. The unrecoverable funds are from the upfront payment of prepping for the hunter in the first place. I still can't find the part in the article where it mentions the outfitter used the money to pay for his own African hunt or whatever.

Imagine if the hunter was on the hook to set up everything themselves before they even came into town and then this happened. Same result except except the hunter doesn't only have one source to contact and try to recover money invested.

Did the hunter, in this case, make bad financial decisions? Not necessarily...

I didn't mention anything about Africa. The governor of NM had some really stupid policies. I feel bad for all the business owners in NM that were affected by it as well as the outfitters in Canada.

The bottom line is the business owners that don't provide services that were paid for will have their reputation harmed. If I had a hunt booked with an outfitter for 2023 and found out he wasn't taking care of his 2020 hunters, I wouldn't be sending him any additional money. it isn't just the 2020 hunters that will end up loosing out with some Canadian outfitters. I'm sure some of these outfitters have extended themselves so poorly that they have already spent the deposits from 2022 and 2023.

The outfitters that are more financially responsible will have some overhead from 2020 and 2021 that they will never recover but they will still be in business 10 years from now. Many Canadian politicians don't care that the outfitters have been ruined financially by their policies. I'm sure some of the politicians are even pleased to see the outfitters financially ruined. I doubt the Canadian government will do anything to help the outfitters.

The hunters did make a bad financial decision. When is spending $10,000, $20,000 or $30,000 on a Canadian hunt a good financial choice? Many things we spend money on are not great financial choices.

 

[eelgrass]

If a hunter makes a 50% deposit and then backs out for whatever reason, the outfitter keeps the deposit.

If a hunter makes a 50% deposit and the outfitter backs out for whatever reason, the outfitter keeps the deposit.

That sounds fair.

Refund half of the deposit and start over with a clean slate.

 

[nmbighorn]

One of the Canadian gov't fees is the price Outfitters have to pay for their concessions which is 250-500k each year and most if not all have quotas on all species.
If the government waived the fees for covid or not is the question that needs to be known.

 

[Homer]

bet they didn't.....Ottawa is leftist....they want outfitters broke and gone.

 

[SS!]

You would think that outfitters in the Yukon would have great incentive for you to be successful. Did you know the government allocates tags to them.If they get 7 sheep tags they can kill 7 sheep. If they book 7 sheep hunters and only 4 are successful they can rebook 3 three more sheep hunters that year. 10 sheep hunts with 7 tags. To bad those three guys didn’t get one! You have to be careful who you book with. By the way 7 of those sheep hunters will give outstanding reviews. Three of them will just be poor hunters.

Ummm a lot of the above is wrong. And just to be clear the US govt gives out sheep tags too…

 

[SS!]

One of the Canadian gov't fees is the price Outfitters have to pay for their concessions which is 250-500k each year and most if not all have quotas on all species.
If the government waived the fees for covid or not is the question that needs to be known.

Where did you get your information?

 

[dack77]

For those that keep saying buy trip insurance, you obviously have not done any research into this matter. When you buy insurance, there is a short list of inclusions and a very very long list of exclusions. The only way you're getting anything covered is if the reason for the delay or trip being canceled is listed in the inclusion section of the contract. I don't know of any trip insurance other than the cancel for any reason insurance that covers a pandemic. The cancel for any reason insurance is very expensive compared to regular trip insurance. Is there actually a company out there that covers trip cancelation because of a pandemic? Possibly, but it's going to be the unicorn of the bunch and certainly not the norm.

 

[JB1975]

Long thread.

 

[nmbighorn]

Where did you get your information?

Got it from a outfitter I hunted with in 05 in BC, may have changed since or maybe he told me that because I inquired about his concession. Your free to remove it if its wrong.

 

[mrc]

Ummm a lot of the above is wrong. And just to be clear the US govt gives out sheep tags too…

Those were the rules 15 or 16 years ago. Is it different now?

 

[Gator]

A decent corral of non man killer horses is EXPENSIVE ....and year ‘round

yes they do eat every day But if you don't sell one guided trip HE would still have to feed them.
Just like I have buy Diesel to drive and find work.
It's never a free lunch.

 

[hossblur]

Nonsense. I've written many articles on topics I didn't agree with and others on those I did agree with. That's a task many writers/reporters/journalists are not immune from doing.

He's not a writer or journalist. He's an outfitter.

Who seems to be ready to start stiffing customers

 

[hossblur]

Except, in this case, the over extension wasn't a function of a risky business venture. The inherent problem lies with a stupid border closure and knee-jerk reaction that lasted months. Hundreds of businesses in NM closed because of that same exact reason, remember?

The other part is, per the article, the outfitter didn't provide a shoddy service. The unrecoverable funds are from the upfront payment of prepping for the hunter in the first place. I still can't find the part in the article where it mentions the outfitter used the money to pay for his own African hunt or whatever.

Imagine if the hunter was on the hook to set up everything themselves before they even came into town and then this happened. Same result except except the hunter doesn't only have one source to contact and try to recover money invested.

Did the hunter, in this case, make bad financial decisions? Not necessarily...

So you missed Shockey muzzleloading all over the world? There are videos

 

[SS!]

Those were the rules 15 or 16 years ago. Is it different now?

It’s never been that way. The concessions work based off yearly allocation. If you do not harvest your allocation it does not roll over until the next year. But yes the govt determines how many of a particular species may be harvested in an area. It’s the same here in the states.

 

[SS!]

Got it from a outfitter I hunted with in 05 in BC, may have changed since or maybe he told me that because I inquired about his concession. Your free to remove it if its wrong.

No worries. I think your outfitters was exaggerating the cost of his concessions to you. They don’t pay anywhere near that, not even in the 6 digits.

 

[Bluehair]

You sure? The outfitter I used mortgaged everything to get his 10,000 sq mi and lodge, airstrip, outbuildings etc. Not sure what was there when he got it, and for sure he spent every summer rebuilding what da bears tore down.

But if he cant take hunters, I don’t see why the government couldn’t cut him a break.

On the bright side, there may be a few older rams for the next couple of waves of tourists.

 

[SS!]

You sure? The outfitter I used mortgaged everything to get his 10,000 sq mi and lodge, airstrip, outbuildings etc. Not sure what was there when he got it, and for sure he spent every summer rebuilding what da bears tore down.

But if he cant take hunters, I don’t see why the government couldn’t cut him a break.

On the bright side, there may be a few older rams for the next couple of waves of tourists.

A concession is just the permit and tags for an area. If he bought a lodge etc that’s a whole different thing. The govt isn’t in control of that. I’m sure the sad sob story of mortgaging everything works well for the tips.

 

[Bluehair]

That’s not the way I remember it, but that was a while back. I tipped the guide who didn’t have a pot to piss in.

 

[elkassassin]

And What Does Everything Revolve Around?

Maybe Shockey is Ready For His Free Hand-Outs?

 

[hossblur]

An HVAC guy, has a shop full of cross breaks, saws, welders, machinery to make duct. He buys sheet metal in bulk. He buys AC units in December and heaters in July. His vans have to be stocked with parts to service untold combinations of units from decades. He has fees, taxes, taxes on fees. He gets to do continuing education with the state. He owns vans, has employees, etc. He does all this WITHOUT any guarantee of return on investment.

In 2009 die to circumstances created by the government, the market crashed. That HVAC guy didn't get waivers on taxes. Didn't get waivers on fees. And he didn't get to tell a customer he wanted 100% upfront, then walk leaving a note explaining that he had bills to pay, and they, the customer could survive without that AC unit, as it was the price of a summer vacation. Or that it was important they not sue him as lawyers were expensive, and the future of HVAC depended on him staying in buisness. And I guarantee, HVAC dude had far more "deadbeats" in 09 than Shockey gets in a lifetime.

In fairness, my guess is a lot of outfitters were not pleased that Jim Shockey spoke for them, any more than I am that "THE DON" speaks for me. Interesting that $fw was so happy to have "the great Jim Shockey" as a celebrity hunter at their show. So while they stole from from dudes, it now looks like their celebrity hunter was too.

 

[mrc]

It’s never been that way. The concessions work based off yearly allocation. If you do not harvest your allocation it does not roll over until the next year. But yes the govt determines how many of a particular species may be harvested in an area. It’s the same here in the states.

I never said it rolled to the next season. They can use those tags again the same season. One guy leaves and another flys in.Two hunts on one tag.

 

[mrc]

When I was in the Yukon about 15 years ago the guide was paid 100 dollars a day plus tips. He was in the bush for 70 days. I asked if he wanted my moose meat. He said the outfitter wouldn’t allow it. I was in Alberta about 20 years ago. The guide made $100 dollars a day plus gas money. He used his own vehicle and drove all day.A guy from Georgia shot a moose and wanted to give the guide his moose. The outfitter put an end to that when he got back to camp.Hunted southern B.C. for whitetails. Wanted to give the meat to the guide.He said the outfitter wouldn’t allow it. We told the outfitter we were taking it home with us and then dropped it off at the guides house. Now you think they’re paying the guides for not working?

 

[SS!]

I never said it rolled to the next season. They can use those tags again the same season. One guy leaves and another flys in.Two hunts on one tag.

Sorry I re read what you said and you’re correct. It’s the same way for the American concessions too. I know one outfitter here in AK that took an old guy out after a particular ram. Age caught up with him and he threw in the towel. Two weeks later the outfitter took someone else in there on a “cancellation” hunt and killed that ram. His concession only allows 1 ram out of the area but on that particular year he was able to pocket over 40k

 

[OutdoorWriter]

He's not a writer or journalist. He's an outfitter.

Who seems to be ready to start stiffing customers

Shockey began his career writing for Canadian hunting magazines and wrote quite a few articles for OL & other publications in the 1980-90s.

How do I know?

Because I was the one on the membership screening committee that approved his OWAA membership way back when.

 

[Buxndiverdux]

It's a terrible situation for everyone. I believe Jim shouldn't have written the article. It reflects poorly on him personally, even though he tried to write it for the industry.
The general public is not going to take "poor mouthing" from someone that is obviously wealthy and successful. If you follow him on social media, his posts don't reflect any sort of personal struggle like we all assume our normal everyday Canadian Outfitters are experiencing.

 

[HornyMan]

It's a terrible situation for everyone. I believe Jim shouldn't have written the article. It reflects poorly on him personally, even though he tried to write it for the industry.
The general public is not going to take "poor mouthing" from someone that is obviously wealthy and successful. If you follow him on social media, his posts don't reflect any sort of personal struggle like we all assume our normal everyday Canadian Outfitters are experiencing.

We call that "Tone deaf"

 

[wetmule]

If a hunter makes a 50% deposit and then backs out for whatever reason, the outfitter keeps the deposit.

If a hunter makes a 50% deposit and the outfitter backs out for whatever reason, the outfitter keeps the deposit.

That sounds fair.

Refund half of the deposit and start over with a clean slate.

Heads I win, tails you lose... sounds about right

 

[Homer]

This will cause hunt prices to double or triple......the oufitters left are not goingto let this happen again.....

 

[Captain_coues]

I was thinking they may not be charging enough. Most businesses treat deposits as liabilities instead of assets. Maybe if they build up capital, they can change that around. It sounds like they’re in the red and are extending their clients like a home builder extends his suppliers expecting to pay them when the house sells and he gets paid because he doesn’t have enough money.

 

[hossblur]

Shockey began his career writing for Canadian hunting magazines and wrote quite a few articles for OL & other publications in the 1980-90s.

How do I know?

Because I was the one on the membership screening committee that approved his OWAA membership way back when.

3rd time.

He WAS NOT an unbiased, journalist writing about a subject.

HE IS perhaps the most famous Canadian outfitter.

If you can't understand the difference, call your j school and give back your degree

 

[RookieWYhntr]

This is the one business where the customer comes last, and is never right. lol

 

[OutdoorWriter]

3rd time.

He WAS NOT an unbiased, journalist writing about a subject.

HE IS perhaps the most famous Canadian outfitter.

If you can't understand the difference, call your j school and give back your degree

Biased, unbiased, white, black or otherwise. the fact is that Jim Shockey was and still claims to be an outdoor writer, in addition to being a TV personality and "famous" outfitter. Because he no longer makes the major part of his income from writing does not change that fact.

You should stick to discussing the issue and save your personal insults for the other keyboard warriors. Otherwise, if you want to act like a dick, at leasrt wear a condom over your head so everyone recognizes you.

 

[GeorgeE]

He kind of sounds like Biden!

 

[hossblur]

Biased, unbiased, white, black or otherwise. the fact is that Jim Shockey was and still claims to be an outdoor writer, in addition to being a TV personality and "famous" outfitter. Because he no longer makes the major part of his income from writing does not change that fact.

You should stick to discussing the issue and save your personal insults for the other keyboard warriors. Otherwise, if you want to act like a dick, at leasrt wear a condom over your head so everyone recognizes you.

I can't help you to see the forest. Your stuck looking at a tree.

I claim to be a basketball player, afterall in 92 my pics in local papers.

For the record, check the OP, that would BE ME. And the issue is that Jim Shockey is USING OL to try spin, PR, Damage control for his upcoming screw job. Since I AM THE OP, I PRETTY MUCH KNEW "THE ISSUE".

I will point out your "contribution" to "the issue" has been some attempted flex that your write stuff, so therefore we are to be in awe. Further, that YOU helped make Shockey "famous". Neither were "the issue".

2 ears, 2 eyes, one mouth. Theres a reason, you should write an article on it

 

[Iowan]

All parties should abide by the terms of the contract they both willingly entered into. Neither party has moral obligations to do anything other than what they both agreed to in writing.

 

[HornyMan]

I think we should be careful that we dont become "cancel culture" in the hunting world.

I don't agree with Jim's words or approach to the article. That doesn't make me hate the guy or discredit his successes. What it does do is makes me hesitant to book a hunt with him.

So he wrote an article that you don't agree with. Not sure why there is so much insecure sentiment around it.

Don't agree with him, don't use him. Don't like him, don't watch him.

 

[hossblur]

I think we should be careful that we dont become "cancel culture" in the hunting world.

I don't agree with Jim's words or approach to the article. That doesn't make me hate the guy or discredit his successes. What it does do is makes me hesitant to book a hunt with him.

So he wrote an article that you don't agree with. Not sure why there is so much insecure sentiment around it.

Don't agree with him, don't use him. Don't like him, don't watch him.

Guess I missed the cancel culture?

If he steals money from clients he's a thief. Spin it, twist it, PR it all day. You take money for a service you didn't perform, your no different than the third who takes money they didn't earn.

Hiding behind celebrity, or journalism, or Covid, doesn't change that.

I bought a trip to Hawaii over a year ago. Just got back.

Same hotel price, same airline price, same car price, same your price as was agreed to a year ago. I guess only Canadian outfitters had inflation, furlowed staff, or shutdowns, so it's ok for them to steal.?

But in truth, Im betting Jim's heard more from fellow guys telling him to shut his yap than from the public.

The Article was from Jim, by Jim, and I'm betting for Jim.

But ya, he's cancelling himself, he don't need anyone's help. Every company wants their spoken to call folks deadbeats.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I can't help you to see the forest. Your stuck looking at a tree.

I claim to be a basketball player, afterall in 92 my pics in local papers.

For the record, check the OP, that would BE ME. And the issue is that Jim Shockey is USING OL to try spin, PR, Damage control for his upcoming screw job. Since I AM THE OP, I PRETTY MUCH KNEW "THE ISSUE".

I will point out your "contribution" to "the issue" has been some attempted flex that your write stuff, so therefore we are to be in awe. Further, that YOU helped make Shockey "famous". Neither were "the issue".

2 ears, 2 eyes, one mouth. Theres a reason, you should write an article on it

That reply was as predictable as my morning dump.

I didn't say you didn't know the "issue." What I did was ask you to keep your personal insults to yourself and discuss the issue. Whether Shockey is a bonified, paid outdoor writer & book author or not is part of that issue. (See below)

I never said a word about myself in this thread until the other keyboard warrior did so with personal insults and claims that he 'never heard of me.' But instead of responding in kind a 2nd time, I turned the other cheek to keep peace on this site.

And I did absolutely nothing to make Shockey famous, as anyone with an inkling of reading comprehension would conclude from what I wrote. So it's obvious where you stand in that regard.

George Bernard Shaw once said: “I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”

I'm going to take a shower. Enjoy yourself.


________________________________________________________________
Jim has written three books and published more than 1,000 adventure articles for the largest outdoor magazines, including American Hunter, Outdoor Life and North American Hunter. He has produced over 50 DVDs and hosts Jim Shockey's Hunting Adventures and Jim Shockey's Uncharted on the Outdoor Channel.

Jim has been an award-winning outdoor writer, wildlife photographer/videographer, wilderness guide and outfitter for nearly 30 years. He owns several exclusive outfitting territories in the wild lands of Canada, including the renowned Pacific Rim Guide Territory on Vancouver Island, British Columbia and the famed 12,000-square-mile Rogue River Outfitting in the Yukon Territory. His television productions have won 15 Golden Moose Awards from 2009-2015, and he is accomplished in archery, muzzleloader and rifle. He serves as the Honorary Lieutenant Colonel of 4 Canadian Ranger Patrol Group (4CRPG) Canadian Armed Forces and is a Member International of the Explorer's Club in New York City, and works in production with his entire family—Louise, Eva and Branlin.

***********************

Jim Shockey (born 1957) is a Canadian outdoor writer, a professional big game outfitter and television producer and host for many hunting shows. Shockey is the producer and host of Jim Shockey's Hunting Adventures and Jim Shockey's Uncharted on Outdoor Channel[1] and Jim Shockey's The Professionals on Outdoor Channel and Sportsman Channel.

************************

For more than three decades, Jim Shockey has been a fixture of the outdoor world—first through his writing, then in the home-video market, and now on his groundbreaking TV show Uncharted. I recently spent some time with Shockey to talk about his success, the business of hunting, and the responsibilities that hunters have.
********************************
Then, in 1984, I wrote my first hunting article for Bow Bender magazine, so that’s really when I entered as a professional in the hunting world.

The $45 Shockey received for his article certainly wasn’t enough for him to become a full-time outdoor professional, so he had to keep on selling antiques and writing articles. Luckily, things soon changed.

Along the way, the editors of various publications I wrote for were tied in with television shows on ESPN at that time. So by 1993 I think I did my first co-hosting of a television show. It was North American Outdoors on ESPN. The North American Hunter magazine editors were looking for places to do hunts for television. I said, “Heck, come on up here.” So we did that one—that might’ve been 1992. And because I was writing for magazines, I already had name recognition with the people that were starting to do television.
**************************************

Jim Shockey
Naturalist, Outfitter, Author, TV Producer and Host of Jim Shockey’s The Professionals and UNCHARTED on Outdoor Channel.
www.jimshockey.com