Legislative Audit ***BGF***

K

klbzdad

Guest
This is my favorite part of the article:

"Particularly troubling to Legislative Auditor General John Schaff was the Department of Natural Resource?s insistence that BGF be paid the full contract amounts each year before completing any work, and that Benson "commingled" the state money with funds from outside sources.

Last year, BGF hired two lobbyists, raising the possibility that the Legislature was providing taxpayer money for the group to lobby lawmakers for more money for BGF. This would be illegal ? but there is no way to be sure this didn't happen, Schaff told the Legislative Audit Committee on Tuesday.

"Disbursement of funds was not based on performance, [but] rather on the hope of progressing toward the desired outcome," auditors wrote. "The upfront payment, lack of accounting review and lack of a current-year plan lead us to believe that the contract lacks sufficient safeguards." - Salt Lake Tribune


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56998010-90/wildlife-wolf-money-audit.html.csp

Text of Audit:
http://le.utah.gov/audit/13_11rpt.pdf

Copy of Contract and Letter in Support of upfront payment:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/129226962/Anti-wolf-contract-Big-Game-Forever

More discussion here:
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=256613

Spin away!



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Keep up the good work BGF. I went elk hunting in WY this year. Heard more wolf howls than bugles. We don't want them for sure.
 
Thanks for sharing... I have my popcorn ready for this conversation! Cannot wait to hear the SFW/BGF supports yell at us for calling their group to attention!




Tallbuck1
 
Welfare. Socialism. Disgusting inbreeding and reach arounds. Sad but I expect this from the "great" state of Utah.
 
Wonder what will happen now? Audit is over, the truth comes out.
Stop the welfare for SFW and BGF. Some heads should roll in the UDWR management.
 
>I know of an apologist from
>Texas that'll give you
>a song and dance.


+1


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
BAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!

What did I tell yall would happen? Yall just wee-weed all that money on an audit for nothing. Nobody is going to jail. Nobody has to give any money back. Yall can't even get the state to quit giving them money.

"Recommendations
1. We recommend that the Division of Wildlife Resources amend
the BGF contract to:
?h Include a more current plan
?h Replace the upfront contract payment with payments
based on agreed upon performance standards
?h Include the original requirement of maintaining
accounting records available for state review
2. We recommend that the division work with State Purchasing
to address vendor comingling of funds without separate
accounting of state funds."

That's it! That's all yall got after spending tens of thousands more of your states money. That's it. No skeletons. No indictments. AND DEFINATELY NO MORE MULE DEER! QUIT FLUSHING MONEY DOWN THE TOILET AT DISTRACTIONS!
 
This is a very sad day for Utah Sportsmen. This audit report officially confirms what many of us already knew ? that the State of Utah and the DWR are too closely aligned with SFW, BGF and other sportsmen groups to adequately protect the rights and interests of the average sportsmen and citizens of Utah. This is another example of the DWR turning over public resources (in this case hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money) to a private organization with no strings attached. The audit report confirms that this was all done with a wink and hand shake, and the DWR did not even exercise its right to audit BGF in an effort to ensure that the money was being properly spent. In fact, in 2013, nearly 200K of the total 300K provided to BGF was paid directly to BGF?s director in the form of consulting fees. And those numbers are based upon the information that BGF provided to the Legislative Auditor.

This whole situation reminds me of the mess that the DWR created with the convention permits. They turned 200 premium tags over to SFW and MDF without requiring any level of transparency or accountability to ensure that the funds generated from those permits was spent on actual conservation. Then when we as sportsmen demanded some accountability, the DWR and the sportsmen groups made use out to be the bad guys who were divisive, out of touch and did not understand conservation.

Although I personally support the effort to delist wolves and I have contributed my own personal money to that cause, I do not support turning over large amounts of public money ? that could otherwise be spent on actual conservation ? to large, influential conservation groups without specific requirements and objectives. There is a great deal of debate as to how much, if any, influence SFW and BGF have had on the wolf delisting effort, and I am not taking a position on that issue. However, I am ashamed of the State Legislature, the DWR and SFW/BGF for taking this money without ensuring that the people of Utah would get anything of substance in return. It should not take a Legislative Audit or massive public outcry from Utah?s sportsmen for the DWR and these conservation groups to do the right thing.

And in response to Tristate's post above, I am not even going to waste my time.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"This is a very sad day for Utah Sportsmen."

Utah sportsman who can't look past blind hate and deal with real issues that threaten mule deer.

" This audit report officially confirms what many of us already knew ? that the State of Utah and the DWR are too closely aligned with SFW, BGF and other sportsmen groups to adequately protect the rights and interests of the average sportsmen and citizens of Utah."

I'm sorry where in the report did it say that? Is that what audit reports say. Maybe because that's your OPINION.

" This is another example of the DWR turning over public resources (in this case hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money) to a private organization with no strings attached. The audit report confirms that this was all done with a wink and hand shake,"

The report doesn't say that anywhere.

"and the DWR did not even exercise its right to audit BGF in an effort to ensure that the money was being properly spent. In fact, in 2013, nearly 200K of the total 300K provided to BGF was paid directly to BGF?s director in the form of consulting fees. And those numbers are based upon the information that BGF provided to the Legislative Auditor."

Yep. What did I tell yall in the previous threads. How does an audit decide what consulting and lobbying fees should be. How does an audit determine value on a service based on intellectual property? It doesn't. That's why nothing came out of this except more money from the state getting spent. NOTHING!

"This whole situation reminds me of the mess that the DWR created with the convention permits. They turned 200 premium tags over to SFW and MDF without requiring any level of transparency or accountability to ensure that the funds generated from those permits was spent on actual conservation. Then when we as sportsmen demanded some accountability, the DWR and the sportsmen groups made use out to be the bad guys who were divisive, out of touch and did not understand conservation."

You finally are getting back to the heart of your hate.

"Although I personally support the effort to delist wolves and I have contributed my own personal money to that cause, I do not support turning over large amounts of public money ? that could otherwise be spent on actual conservation ? to large, influential conservation groups without specific requirements and objectives."

Whether you like it or not politics is part of conservation. Yall decided that when everyone got in line to decide the people own the wildlife. Well you gotta politic with all them people that "own" your critters now. I have no problem with you not liking how the money got spent. But that means you need to take that up with the government and not waste even more money on some end around audit game hoping you will screw people you hate. Its childish and like I told you from the beginning would get you nowhere.

" There is a great deal of debate as to how much, if any, influence SFW and BGF have had on the wolf delisting effort, and I am not taking a position on that issue. However, I am ashamed of the State Legislature, the DWR and SFW/BGF for taking this money without ensuring that the people of Utah would get anything of substance in return. It should not take a Legislative Audit or massive public outcry from Utah?s sportsmen for the DWR and these conservation groups to do the right thing."

This is the purest statement in this hole post and I have no problem with sportsmen having an opinion like this. Lets just find more constructive ways to help the cause and deal with issues of much greater importance first.

"And in response to Tristate's post above, I am not even going to waste my time."

You already did.
 
The most interesting part..........

"latest round of money was awarded at a time when delisting was all but assured."
 
Tristate, allow me to speak for the majority: you are an idiot.

To the rest: Please ignore the troll. If you feed it, it will keep coming back for more. I know it's tempting to toss it a candy bar or a cookie or something, but don't do it. Carry on as if it didn't even exist. If you do so, your time spent on MM will be much more enjoyable.

trolls.jpg


Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
lol. I love the picture.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
I have to give props to Ryan Benson. I made $6500 on a chain letter one time and thought it was easy money. Ha, that guy sends out emails for useless internet petitions, tells everybody to keep fighting the fight, and the money rolls in, and not just from stupid hunters but the state itself.
 
A simple consideration: Are wolf number up? Yes. Are deer numbers down? Yes. Yet people still give money to these organizations based on what they say, and not what they do.
 
Dryflyelk,

I am the idiot that told all of yall how this would play out and end. It all happened exactly the way I said it would. You can hate me but what does that say about you when the one person who tells you the truth, you reject.
 
A sad state of affairs. Remember this audit report the next time you receive an e-mail from BGF thumping their chests and pumping duped sportsmen for money.
Shining light in the dark corners of state (and national) back room funding deals is never pretty. The kickbacks and skimmming of state funds for private purposes is ingrained in the system.

The real question is whether or not the DWR will continue to fund BGF going forward. (Beyond their 2014 commitment.) The pressure needs to stay on DWR to sever their ties with SFW and BGF. I'm not holding my breath...
Bill
 
"A sad state of affairs. Remember this audit report the next time you receive an e-mail from BGF thumping their chests and pumping duped sportsmen for money.
Shining light in the dark corners of state (and national) back room funding deals is never pretty. The kickbacks and skimmming of state funds for private purposes is ingrained in the system."


llamapacker,

Did you read the report? Nowhere in the report did it say they found evidence of kickbacks and skimming.
 
Douchstate,

Did you read the report? You know, about the illegal lobbying part and the confusion of commingling PUBLIC funds with PRIVATE funds? How about the part where 2/3 of one installment went to some bonehead attorney for his "consulting"? And the recommendations themselves would give UTAH SPORTSMEN the accountability they want concerning UTAH taxpayer money. Shut the hell up and go stuff a monkey! Horse's aSS.



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
"Douchstate,

Did you read the report?"

Every single word.

" You know, about the illegal lobbying part"

No where in there did it say there was illegal lobbying.

" and the confusion of commingling PUBLIC funds with PRIVATE funds?"

That doesn't mean that these people are evil and violated anything set forth by the state. Just means the auditors would like to see it different in a format that makes it easy on them.

" How about the part where 2/3 of one installment went to some bonehead attorney for his "consulting"?"

Consulting and intellectual property ain't cheap. I don't know of a single company that doesn't pay for consulting and I guarantee almost all government agencies pay through thte nose for it also.

"And the recommendations themselves would give UTAH SPORTSMEN the accountability they want concerning UTAH taxpayer money."

How do you know that? What level of accounting are you looking for. If its the same level of accountability RMEF gives you won't know squat when the state gets the papers.

"Shut the hell up and go stuff a monkey! Horse's aSS."

Well gee I don't have anything bad to say about you. Why don't you tell us why you really hate BGF. It ain't the money and you know it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-13 AT 02:07PM (MST)[p]The negatives as I see them:

1- From page 2 of the report; "The Legislature appropriated the funds through DWR without specific directions on how the money should be spent."

While there may be limits on how "specific" they could get, there should have been some written guidelines on the use of the money in regards to mixing it with private money and money from other states, using it to lobby for further funds, using it for personal gain or promoting a private business. Legislators at fault!

2- Page 2; "DWR was verbally directed to give the funds to SFW the first year"

No public notice? Nothing written down? Legislators and DWR at fault.

3- Page 3; "This grant, and that of the subsequent year, required the vendor to maintain accounting records to be available for state review."

See above. Additionally, the vendors (SFW and BGF) apparently didn't keep very good accounting records, but relied on published articles of other groups' prior successes per their "report" when asked by Legislators to account for their use of public funds. Legislators, SFW and BGF at fault.

4- Page 3; "DWR accepted feedback from SFW but did not exercise its right to an accounting review."

ALL government agencies need to account for public funds in a manner that is irreproachable. Just because DWR and SFW have had a close working relationship in the past and on other projects, it doesn't justify DWR's failure to require an accounting on this one. DWR at fault.

5- Page 3; "SFW did not want to continue their increased involvement in wolf-delisting lobbying, believing their increased amount of lobbying was outside SFW's tax structure."

I'm not a tax lawyer and would like to have some answers regarding this sentence. How much lobbying is too much? Or is it a question of who is lobbying? Or who is being lobbied? Or how they are being lobbied? Maybe not illegal, but not very clear either. Maybe I'm at fault for not knowing the law. Or maybe not!

6- Page 3; "SFW supported their attorney when he left SFW to work full time on congressional lobbying through Big Game Forever (BGF), the self-declared 502(c)(4) organization he started after the first wolf management appropriation."

We're talking about Ryan Benson. He was the SFW lawyer/consultant who received the $87,453 (or the majority) consulting fees in the first appropriation. So now he's the Director of BGF. So far, so good (see #12). Also, keep in mind that he's not THE founder of BGF, he's a co-founder with Don Peay.

7- Page 3; "DWR, maintaining the language of the first grant, provided the second $100,000 non-competative grant directly to BGF in fiscal year 2012."

So, nothing was learned from the first grant which would require any changes in the language? That's probably because there was no formal/written followup or accounting. DWR's fault.

8- Page 3; "The division relied on informal updates through phone conversations."

No comment needed! DWR at fault.

9- Page 4; "By the third year (fiscal year 2013), the appropriation for wolf delisting rose to $300,000 and DWR decided that, for greater transparency, the issuance should be released as a contract rather than a grant."

Did they mean informal phone conversations and verbal instructions weren't transparent enough? DWR at fault.

10- Page 4; "BGF, the sole applicant, was awarded the contract. In our opinion, this language specifically describes BGF and gives the appearance it was tailored to meet their experience and expertise."

No comment needed! DWR at fault.

11- Page 4; "DWR management said they did this because of their desire to maintain BGF's expertise and continue the work they had started two years prior."

Since BGF didn't even exist two years prior, I guess the "they" that the DWR management (and, in fact, this report team) refers to means that DWR managerment believes SFW and BGF are indistinguishable and are one and the same per the Ryan Benson/Don Peay relationship. And who could blame them? I have a hard time telling them apart myself. DWR at fault.

There's lots more, but I'll just give one because the list is too long already.

12- Page 6; "For the fiscal year 2013 contract, BGF reported that about two-thirds ($194,337) of the state funding ($300,000) was paid to the BGF director's private business and reported as his consulting fees."

The Director of a non-profit entity paying public money to his private business is a legal conflict of interest violation, isn't it? It should be if not already! BGF is at fault for doing it and the Utah Attorney General is at fault for not catching it and prosecuting them!

I'll let some of you figure out the rest of the negatives and I'll work on another post on the positives. In any case, I'm sending this to my legislators. I suggest you do something similar.
 
Lee-

That is a summary of some the problems identified in the audit. Here are a few more. I will pick up where you left off:

13 ? Page 4 ? ?The executive director requested that the full $300,000 be paid up front. The Division of Purchasing was concerned with the lack of safeguards in the contract and therefore asked the executive Director of the DNR to write a letter requesting the upfront payment to have on file.?

This deal triggered red flags within the state. The Division of Purchasing was concerned about the lack of safeguards and the upfront payment. Unfortunately the Director of DNR wrote a letter requesting the payment. The Division of Purchasing apparently kept that letter on file as an apparent CYA in case someone questioned the payments. DWR?s and State?s fault.

14 ? Page 5 ? ?Immediate payment of the contract amount concerns us because the disbursement of funds was not based upon performance, rather on the hope of progressing toward the desired outcome.?

This seems obvious to most people. The state should not have paid the full amount up front and should have imposed some specific criteria by which BGF's performance could be judged. Unfortunately, it appears that neither the state nor the DWR was concerned about what the people of the State of Utah would get in exchange for their money. DWR?s and State?s fault.

15 ? Page 5 ? ?For the current year, the contract has been renewed and an additional $300,000 has been paid to BGF upfront. DWR accepted BGF?s fiscal year 2013 proposal as a plan for how the provider would implement the contract. . ."

Apparently, nothing was learned and no improvements were made to the approach taken in the prior year. DWR?s and State?s fault.

16 ? Page 5 ? ?DRWR also accepted the fiscal year 2013 proposal as the plan for the fiscal year 2014 contract, even with major changes with wolf delisting.?

In other words, even though the landscape for wolf delisting looked very different for fiscal year 2014, the DWR accepted BGF?s proposal from the prior year again in 2014. There apparently was no effort to ensure that we are tracking progress and ensuring that the current game plan is aligned with the current issues. DWR?s, the state?s and BGF?s fault.

17 ? Page 5 ? ?DWR amended the contract for the current year to require a summary of expenditures in four general categories at year end. However, without an updated fiscal year 2014 plan, we are unable to determine in more exact terms how the money will be spent this year before their report to the DWR in June 2014.?

So the DWR was apparently feeling some pressure (likely as a result of this audit) and amended the contract to require a summary of expenditures at year end. Unfortunately, the DWR did not see the need to ask for an updated plan in light of the ?major changes with wolf delisting? mentioned above. Rather than ensuring the money will be well spent by imposing specific requirements on the front end, the DWR will be hoping it was well spent when they receive their report on the back end. DWR?s fault.

18 ? Page 5 ? ?The upfront payment, lack of accounting review, and lack of a current-year plan leads us to believe that the contract lacks sufficient safeguards.?

Well, duh. You don't have to be an accountant to see the risk and potential problems associated with spending public funds in this manner. DWR?s and State?s fault.

19 ? Page 5 ? ?The fiscal year 2013 contract was conceived without an expectation of fully identifying the vendor?s state-related expenses; as a result, state and private funds were commingled.?

This is one of the problems when you hand over public funds without imposing strict accounting and transparency requirements. By the time the legislature asked for this audit, it was too late. The money had been commingled (deposited into BGF?s general account) and, therefore, it was impossible to isolate and audit the public funds. DWR?s, the state?s and BGF?s fault.

20 ? Page 6 ? Although BGF admits that nearly 2/3 of the state?s $300,000 for fiscal year 2013 was paid to ?BGF director?s private business and reported as his consulting fees,? the underlying ?[e]xpense breakdowns of this consulting business were not supplied.

In other words, the director of BGF admits that 2/3 of the money in 2013 was paid directly to his own business but he has not provided any accounting as to what portion of that money was used for expenses as opposed to his personal compensation. DWR?s and BGF?s fault.

21 ? Page 6 ? ?This comingling of state and private funds could be an issue if BGF, using state funds appropriated to a state agency for a purpose delineated in state statute, is viewed as an extension of a state agency. Utah Code 63J-1-210 does not allow state funds to be used by a state agency to lobby the State Legislature. With comingling, we cannot ensure that state funds were used appropriately.?

This statement highlights another problem with handing over public funds without imposing strict accounting and transparency requirements. DWR?s, the state?s and BGF?s fault.

22 ? Page 6 ? ?While national wolf delisting efforts appear to be successful, it is not possible to determine the extent of the State of Utah?s or BGF?s contribution.?

Thus, the state and the general public are left guessing what, if anything, they received for their $800,000 investment. Had the state and the DWR imposed specific requirements, we would at least know that BGF performed the requirements set out in the contract. DWR?s, the state?s and BGF?s fault.

23 ? Page 7 ? ?Recommendations
1. We recommend that the Division of Wildlife Resources amend the BGF contract to:
? Include a more current plan.
? Replace the upfront contract payment with payments based on agreed upon performance standards.
? Include the original requirement of maintaining accounting records available for state review.
2. We recommend that the division work with State Purchasing to address vendor comingling of funds without separate accounting of state funds.?

These recommendations are simple, obvious and logical. I don't know why it takes a state legislative audit before the DWR and BGF would realize that when you are dealing with public monies you need to make sure the money is well spent and accounted for. DWR?s, the state?s and BGF?s fault.

I would be interested to see the list of ?positives? that can be taken from the Legislative Auditor?s Report.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"Thus, the state and the general public are left guessing what, if anything, they received for their $800,000 investment."


But on previous posts you and others stated the audit was going to tell us. Yall were all willing to spend more money to "get answers". What have you got? When I asked yall on the previous threads about this audit and what yall wanted very few of yall could give an answer and those that did thought an audit would give yall things audits don't give anyway. Well here we are and you finally admit you got a heap of jack squat for throwing more money away. Revel in it boys.
 
Tristate-

To reiterate what dryflyelk stated so eloquently in Post #13 above: ?you are an idiot.?

I never stated that the Legislative Audit would tell us what benefits we received from the $800,000 in tax-payer money that was given to SFW/BGF. Rather, I maintained that the audit was necessary to determine: (1) whether the state, the DWR and the BGF followed applicable law; and (2) to try to find out what, if anything, we received in exchange for our money. And frankly, I think the audit report answers those questions very clearly.

Given the prior history here in Utah, I am happy when the State, the DWR or anybody else requires some accountability regarding how these conservation groups are spending public money and utilizing public assets. If you do not understand that point, then spare us your illogical comments and go back to mounting javalina.

Have a good evening.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Douchestate is a javelina mounter?!?! That explains it. Back to ignoring the pig loving moron.

Thanks elkfromabove and Hawkey for bringing forward what we got for our money (that the auditors would have been paid ANYWAY).


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
I did not say he was a "pig lover," I said he was a taxidermist.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
why is it every time you open your mouth you are whining about the conservation permits, get over it dude no one cares what you think! everyone knows your opinion and this post had nothing to do with it. Do you answered a post that does not refer to the tags. You shared your mouth and opinion to all of us for well over a year about it. We get it~ Deal with the post, not your own little personal agenda. Its yours! not everyone's elses. Your one to talk about fleecing the public, art you an attorney? nuf said~~~ go away
 
I'll step away from the name calling and insults for a minute to elaborate on why this is important to me and should be important to everyone on this forum.

Elkfromabove and Hawkeye have done an excellent job dissecting the audit report line for line. Thank you both. I echo your thoughts.

As a sportsman and a taxpayer, the behavior of SFW and now BGF and the DWR is flat out unacceptable. It's immoral and unethical. While there may not be any impropriety, all signs would suggest otherwise. We have long been asking for accounting and transparency because we know how things are being handled. The short answer is that they aren't being handled at all. The good 'ol boys in the DWR and these "conservation" groups are dealing with MILLIONS of our dollars with a wink and a handshake.

Digging into these wormholes leaves us with trails of breadcrumbs that almost always lead back to the same place and the same people. Nobody who is paying attention is surprised by these audit results. It's more of the same story being shoved down our throats, yet NOBODY is ever held accountable.

If these "conservation" groups are as noble as they try to appear to be, they'd be shouting their successes from the rooftops. They'd make accounting numbers available to any and all who wanted to see them, and what's more, they'd be proud of them (see the RMEF for how it should be done).

Instead, we're given what amounts to a snow job when we would dare question the altruistic values these guys keep shoveling out. How dare we question their motives! Don't we love wildlife?!? Look at the good that's been done! (reference: three hour tour)

When dealing with corruption on any level there's a rule that always holds true: follow the money. In this case BGF took in $800,000+ of OUR money. It looks like the majority of this money made it's way back to...drumroll...those that pushed this funding through in the first place. Surprise, surprise.

If you're a sportsman and/or a taxpayer, you should be demanding an explanation. You should be outraged that you're being taken advantage of. You should require that money you pay out in the form of tax payer dollars be tracked and itemized to make sure a cluster-frack of this magnitude doesn't happen again.

This is proof-positive of the colossal fail that these groups have created. I will be writing letters to my legislators and I hope the rest of you take the time to do the same.



Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
It sucks, but it is good to say "i told you so".. I was ranting about this crap damn near 10 years ago but no one would open their eyes except a handful of others who were not blinded by the BS.
You UT guys deserve better, demand it.
 
ihunt4200-

Thanks for contributing to the discussion. I never mentioned conservation permits in this thread. However, I did mention convention permits in Post #10. Apparently you don't understand the difference between the two types of permits.

If you can't see the the connection/similarity between the millions of dollars in convention permit revenue and the $800,000 the DWR turned over to SFW/BGF for wolf delisting then I'm sorry. I do. There is a pattern of a lack of oversight, accounting and transparency. I am happy the State Legislative Auditor took a hard look at this problem because these groups have not listened to anyone else on this issue. I am guessing that you think the State Legislative Auditor must be a hater and have an ax to grind too.

With regard to your comment about me fleecing the public, I don't receive any compensation from public entities. My clients are private businesses and individuals that pay me out of their own pockets to draft contracts and represent their interests. My clients have every right to ask me a question about my services or about a bill. That is how business works. If I was being paid from public resources then I would fully expect the public to examine and question what they are getting in exchange for their money.

Finally, I would have more respect for your comments if your profile was not disabled. It us easy to throw grenades in anonymity. Step up to the plate and let's have an intelligent discussion on these issues. We might both learn something new.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Deerlove~ I wish I was on their payroll! who doesn't~ I agree with 10000% of the audit and the b.s that they are pushing down our throats. i am however both a mdf member and a rmef member and am proud to be of both because i have seen and done the work in the field. I have seen the money being put back because i broke my ass on the projects doing it. I have witnessed the members, the volunteers and their passion. They are us, They are good people trying to do the right thing. My frustration is only with "The peoples attorney" and his personal opinions. There is no doubt he has done the research, I have witnessed the wildlife board meetings and the cooperation that came of it. When the Subject is "RE: Legislative Audit ***BGF*** " Lets rip em in half. When it come to the other groups who have heard the people and are doing as asked. Given them props. But No he insists on hijacking the thread with conservation tag B.S Im just saying lets address the subject that is on here today. Spent over a year listening to his conservation tag soapbox. Give it a rest, its moving in the right direction. Everything he complained about in the meeting is happening. He has met both in private and public with these groups and knows exactly what is going on. The transparency is there with both the MDF and the RMEF. Look, Request, Dig. Its all there. As for the Conservation tags, Ya it sucks but it has worked and is working. SFW & BGF can suck it! they are crooks and everyone is now seeing it. but do not group all the groups together. If so bring on DU, NWTW, Pheasants forever,Quail Forever and all of them. He just got a stick up his ass about certain groups and will never stop harassing them, no matter what they do it will never be enough. hes got some great intel but also some hidden agendas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-13 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-13 AT 09:49?PM (MST)

ihunt4200-

I never once mentioned "conservation permits" in this thread. What I said in Post #10 was that the State of Utah and the DWR dropped the ball on the "convention permit" issue and the wolf grant issue by failing to include any safeguards or accounting requirements. It was only after the public demanded some accountability that they made any changes to the convention permit program. But for the public uproar, no changes would have been made. The same appears to be true on the wolf issue. The DWR dropped the ball on both issues.

You are the one who raised the "conservation permit" issue-in two separate posts now. You are also the one who is dragging MDF into this discussion. I find it ironic that you refer to SFW as "crooks" but then you partner up with SFW each year at the expo. I am sure MDF leadership will be thrilled that you are dragging them into this discussion and bad-mouthing their partners in conservation. Perhaps you should keep your identity anonymous so that you don't jeopardize your membership in MDF.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
>I did not say he was
>a "pig lover," I said
>he was a taxidermist.
>
>Hawkeye
>
>Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
>Bowtech Destroyer
>Winchester Apex .50 Cal

I stand corrected. It was the word "mounts" that threw me off.

MDF made baby steps on transparency but they actually throw their hat in on legislative issues that are successful in favor of the majority of sportsmen and wildlife. Addressing the BGF audit and bringing it forward publicly is why we are seeing baby steps by MDF. RMEF has always been crystal clear in their accounting. Lets see what comes of this. The recommendations from the auditor general are reasonable just as Hawkeye suggests. The squeaky wheel still gets the grease, IMHO.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
>Keep up the good work BGF.
> I went elk hunting
>in WY this year.
>Heard more wolf howls than
>bugles. We don't want
>them for sure.


You obviously weren't hunting where I was in Wyoming. Yes I heard a couple wolves, but the elk didn't seem to mind at all as they were going absolutely crazy, and I will be back there next year to take care of both!

Thanks KLZ for the info. I hope they expose the truth of what OUR taxpayer and sportsmen's dollars is really being spent on. I can see heads rolling now... and some Koolaiders who'll really feel dumb they bought into the program.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 07:38AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 02:00?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 01:56?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 01:44?AM (MST)

>Deerlove~ I wish I was on
>their payroll! who doesn't~ I
>agree with 10000% of the
>audit and the b.s that
>they are pushing down our
>throats. i am however both
>a mdf member and a
>rmef member and am proud
>to be of both because
>i have seen and done
>the work in the field.
>I have seen the money
>being put back because i
>broke my ass on the
>projects doing it. I have
>witnessed the members, the volunteers
>and their passion. They are
>us, They are good people
>trying to do the right
>thing. My frustration is only
>with "The peoples attorney" and
>his personal opinions. There is
>no doubt he has done
>the research, I have witnessed
>the wildlife board meetings and
>the cooperation that came of
>it. When the Subject is
>"RE: Legislative Audit ***BGF*** "
>Lets rip em in half.
>When it come to the
>other groups who have heard
>the people and are doing
>as asked. Given them props.
>But No he insists on
>hijacking the thread with conservation
>tag B.S Im just saying
>lets address the subject that
>is on here today. Spent
>over a year listening to
>his conservation tag soapbox. Give
>it a rest, its moving
>in the right direction. Everything
>he complained about in the
>meeting is happening. He has
>met both in private and
>public with these groups and
>knows exactly what is going
>on. The transparency is there
>with both the MDF and
>the RMEF. Look, Request, Dig.
>Its all there. As for
>the Conservation tags, Ya it
>sucks but it has worked
>and is working. SFW &
>BGF can suck it! they
>are crooks and everyone is
>now seeing it. but do
>not group all the groups
>together. If so bring on
>DU, NWTW, Pheasants forever,Quail Forever
>and all of them. He
>just got a stick up
>his ass about certain groups
>and will never stop harassing
>them, no matter what they
>do it will never be
>enough. hes got some great
>intel but also some hidden
>agendas.

Please calm down, folks! Let's not get into a shouting match, especially about different programs.

For clarification, the CONSERVATION (auction) Permit Program does, indeed, work and most of us don't have issues with it (other than the number of OIL tags, in my case). All of the money in that program is (or can be) accounted for. 30% goes directly to the DWR for their use and they are accountable to the state, 60% is retained by the conservation organization (SFW, MDF, RMEF, etc) for use ONLY in DWR approved or DWR initiated projects and we know where that money goes per the project reports. Also, it isn't mixed with membership dues, fund raisers nor private donations. It's kept in a seperate account. The remaining 10% is kept by the conservation organization for their own use with no financial commitments to the DWR or to wildlife (However, that doesn't mean they don't spend some of it on wildlife. In fact, most do).

On the other hand, the CONVENTION (EXPO) Permit Program allows the Expo promoters (currently MDF and SFW) to keep 100% of the $5 application fees with no financial commitments to the DWR nor to wildlife. Again, that doesn't mean some if it isn't going back to wildlife because much of it does, but many of us would like to see that program legally changed more to the way the CONSERVATION Permit Program is handled with mandated % amounts committed to wildife, a seperate account and the ability for the DWR and/or the State of Utah to financially audit that program. Right now, public and private funds are being mixed and the only public audit being done concerns only the method of handling the draw. Please keep in mind that the solution to those issues has been discussed and is currently in process and will be determined when the EXPO contract comes up again in 2016.

So, those two programs are different and need to be seperated when they are being discussed. It's best that we leave them for another thread.

And, FWIW, I'm also a member of MDF and have been a member of RMEF in the past and consider both of them excellent organizations and am glad they are still going strong.

In fact, I think SFW needs to be part of the conservation picture and I admire all the work they've accomplished but I don't think they are entitled to manipulate the system to the disadvantage of the majority of Utah's hunters, and I also think their leadership has pulled them off track from their original intent. IMHO, they need to get back to their roots.

As far as BGF goes, I think they got off on the wrong foot to begin with, legally and ethically, and I don't see that much of a need for them in the picture. There are already many organizations working on the wolf delisting and they just seem to rock the boat while others are rowing. We may, in fact, be better off without them.

Now, whether or not SFW sticks around isn't my (or anyone else's) doing. I just see what I see. They seem to be on their own self-destruct course and I personally hope they use this audit to their advantage and make the necessary changes. The same goes for BGF and the DWR. It ain't that hard to be honest!
 
First you say this about the audit,

"Thus, the state and the general public are left guessing what, if anything, they received for their $800,000 investment."


And then you say this.

"and (2) to try to find out what, if anything, we received in exchange for our money. And frankly, I think the audit report answers those questions very clearly."

You know something Hawkeye, I actually come from a family full of attorneys. A couple of them are well known. One thing they have all told me is keep someone talking and nine times out of ten he will sink himself. You are talking in circles while I mount my javelina.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 07:54AM (MST)[p]After reading tripstates comments and all his arguments over the last year, this video posted by dryflyelk was ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!!!!
 
Tristate-

Let me connect the dots for you and reconcile those two statements: The sportsmen and taxpayers of Utah did not receive anything of substance in exchange for the $800,000. The audit confirms the the entire process was flawed from the beginning due to the lack of accounting, lack of specific requirements, lack of safeguards and the upfront payments to SFW/BGF. Thus, even if the DWR or SFW/BGF try to argue that they accomplished A, B and C as a result of receiving the money, there is no way to verify their claims because of the lack of supervision and the commingling of funds. I hope that addresses your confusion.

Now, carry on with the mount jobs.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Although the discussion of movie clips and taxidermy work is an interesting diversion, let's get back to the original topic -- the audit report from the state legislative auditor. I would like to see someone try to explain to Utah sportsmen and taxpayers how this report vindicates or justifies the state's and the DWR's decision to hand over $800,000 to SFW/BGF. Can anyone who has actually read the audit report spin the findings from the report in a positive light? Any takers?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
I'm thinking if anyone can spin it in a positive way, it will be a taxi from Texas

I will be sending a letter to my state rep today. Might even consider our federal reps as well, just so all the crooks see how it's done in Utah.
 
"Tristate-

Let me connect the dots for you and reconcile those two statements: The sportsmen and taxpayers of Utah did not receive anything of substance in exchange for the $800,000."

Why don't you be truthful and admit that absolutely nowhere in that audit nor in the auditor's summary did it state that?

"The audit confirms the the entire process was flawed from the beginning due to the lack of accounting, lack of specific requirements, lack of safeguards and the upfront payments to SFW/BGF."

No that is your opinion of the audit.

" Thus, even if the DWR or SFW/BGF try to argue that they accomplished A, B and C as a result of receiving the money, there is no way to verify their claims because of the lack of supervision and the commingling of funds."

If there was no commingling and perfect supervision you could, and would, still argue that they were not the ones that accomplished A, B, and C because many groups were all lobbying for the same thing. You are asking them to prove what can't be proven with a method that proves nothing.
 
I am not and will not spin things in a positive light. All I have done is tell yall that you would spend more money and get nowhere, and I was right.

Your end around battle against some fake cause has failed. You still haven't stopped convention permits.
 
Tristate said:

"The audit confirms the the entire process was flawed from the beginning due to the lack of accounting, lack of specific requirements, lack of safeguards and the upfront payments to SFW/BGF."

No that is your opinion of the audit.

Response:

Actually, that statement is nearly a direct quote from audit report itself which provides on page 5 as follows: "The upfront payment, lack of accounting review, and lack of a current-year plan leads us to believe that the contract lacks sufficient safeguards." Significantly, that statement from the Utah State Legislative Auditor was made with regard to the FY2014 payment of $300,000, which is the only payment where the DWR imposed a requirement for a year-end summary of expenditures. Thus the prior three payments of $100,000, $100,000 and $300,000 had even less accountability and safeguards. Sorry, but you are wrong again. Pleaes read the report linked in post #1 before digging a deeper hole.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Hawkeye if you would go back and read you would see I already told you I did read the report.

And for you to think that those two sentences mean the same thing after the fact that you added

"The audit confirms the the entire process was flawed from the beginning"

Doesn't transform the sentence into YOUR OPINION, is asinine. GO back and read because I stated a fact. You read something. You attached your opinion to it. Now you are claiming that the auditors said it. That is what you are doing and I am seeing through your BS. Quit pretending that the auditors are siding with your opinions.
 
This has nothing to do with convention permits. Everything to do with BGF and UDWR giving money away with no safeguard on explaining what and where the money went.
BGF not SFW
 
I surrender. I should have known better then to try to reason with you. A wise man once said, "Never argue with an idiot; he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.? Have a nice day.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
And a million mommas out there said, "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all".
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 01:22PM (MST)[p]Tell that to Hawkeye. That's how I can tell this doesn't have anything to do with accounting or audits. Yall muddy the water when you think you are safe and it suits you and then reject every other notion when it is sent right back at you. Yall think you are David vs Goliath but you fail to notice Goliath didn't fall from David throwing gravel at his ankle.
 
>This has nothing to do with
>convention permits. Everything to do
>with BGF and UDWR giving
>money away with no safeguard
>on explaining what and where
>the money went.
>BGF not SFW

False.

BGF and SFW are peas in a pod. While they may technically be different entities, they were (and are) run and created by the same people with the same philosophies. Unfortunately for us, our complaints about these groups are exactly the same.

Our criticism of SFW, MDF and the DWR has always been about how they're handling a public resource, in this case, the convention permits. They are essentially given these tags, they make millions raffling them off, and there are zero restrictions on how they spend the money or what they do with it. None.

BGF is doing exactly the same thing. They're given hundreds of thousands of tax payer dollars with zero restrictions. They can do with it whatever the hell they want and nobody is going to be there to check up on them or make sure it's actually hitting the ground.

They can tell us stories and show us slides and blow smoke up our behinds, but in the end, we just have to trust that they're doing the right thing.

Do you know why they don't have the provisions in place to safeguard the public dollars and assets? Because they know exactly what they are doing. It's not an accident. They don't want the public looking over their shoulders and criticizing their decisions.

This is the exact same song and dance we've hashed out here hundreds of times. More of the same BS from the DWR and everyone else involved.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-13 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]>Can anyone who
>has actually read the audit
>report spin the findings from
>the report in a positive
>light? Any takers?
>
>Hawkeye
>
>Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
>Bowtech Destroyer
>Winchester Apex .50 Cal


OOOOh OOOOh OOOOh! Pick me! Pick Me!

We, UTAH sportsmen and women, are finally seeing steps to hold those on the state's money tit accountable for the public trust they use to profit. Eventually, all groups associated with ANY public trust funds or permits given to them for raising money for conservation will be as transparent and accountable as RMEF and even SCI. I particularly get a kick out of the BS compensation report on SFW's webpage. I'm happy they (RMEF) pay David Allen almost $300,000.00 a year because of the volume and quality of conservation projects done across the nation PROVING successful and he is the guy who helped turn their focus and direction around from what could have been a very bad path to Greedy Town. 7 Million acres of land preserved for elk and other wildlife? Even if that were only half true, at least we are fully aware of what we are getting for every single penny they are given.

Once again, Douchestate has mounted another thread and dry humped it into stupidity. Oh, that's right, he a taxidermist....keep forgetting. Sorry bout that. I tried to stay positive.....


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
I've watched these types of threads over the years. Most that k now me know that I have been a "koolaide drinker" up until about 2 years ago. Some of the things I've seen over the years have raised an eyebrow or 2 but lately there have been quite a few things that have really called into question when these 2 groups are all about.

Tristate - I applaud your passion. You come on here and defend your position no matter what, albeit lately you seem to be the one that can't see past the nose on his face. Ryan Benson, Don Peay and the boys are extremely smart businessmen. They have taken ideas and turned them into multimillion dollar businesses and livelihoods for themselves and their families that most would love to have. So I really have to wonder why the reoport makes the "comingling of funds" out to sound like a mistake. Really? You can't possibly think that Don and Ryan didn't know what they were doing when they "muddied the waters" in that aspect. Also, there are so many conflicts of interest here it's sickening. Any other legitimate business wouldn't allow what goes on in these 2 companies to go on in their own. The same attorney that gets an $85,000.00 + check for consultation fees is the guy that runs the company? Again, it may not be criminal but those boys are smart. They have obviously found ways around it.

I honestly think the audit did what it needed to do. It bought to light the fact that there are some serious flaws with the way SFW and BGF do business. It paints a sketchy picture at best. Anybody can look at that and see that there are some shady back room deals going on. I will be the first to say that I think there have been some great things done for wildlife in the State of Utah with SFW's stamp on them. If they were doing business as it should be conducted there woudn't be any issues with sportsmen and women. This audit has hopefully brought to light the fact that sportmen and women are watching. We're a little more savvy now to the way this business should be conducted and reported. It won't be as easy to "slip a mickey" past koolaide drinkers like me anymore.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Great post, J! I agree there are many MANY projects and initiatives with the SFW stamp on them that have and are proving to be very good for wildlife in Utah.

That said, I thought I'd post a reminder of the "work" done by BFG to earn those hundreds of thousands of taxpayer funds. Oh, and I also spoke with my old media contact at the auditor general's office.....yeah, those auditors involved were paid the same amount of money they would have without the audit. The only additional expenses were some travel, postage, and a few materials. Rough estimate, a couple thousand bucks.


Here's my little timeline of BGF entertainment. Enjoy:

Current BFG Issues refresher from OP:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56998010-90/wildlife-wolf-money-audit.html.csp

BGF submitted "work"....nothing substantive in the entire thing:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/wolf/pdf/utah_contract_report.pdf

Text of Audit:
http://le.utah.gov/audit/13_11rpt.pdf


And here is the timeline of events for BFG and the monolithic errors they've made to preserve themselves over heritage and wildlife:


Simpson/Tester opened up the first round of delisting and those states are currently hunting and managing wolves on a state level within their boundaries. Don and Ryan (BGF) opposed this bill and were on the wrong side of the associated lawsuit which is where they have led their groups over the years. It wasn't BGF, Don, or Ryan that accomplished ANYTHING in the wolf delisting fight. In fact, they postponed it. For your reading pleasure:


Big Game Forever says its in the fight:
http://www.huntersagainstpeta.com/bi...olf-litigation

Which would be great BUT:
http://www.montanasportsmenalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/NRA-press-release.pdf

Oopsie, time to come clean by distraction, not retraction:
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/...820a6c76kh830f

Then time to admit to its real intentions...membership $$$:
http://www.huntersagainstpeta.com/em...g-game-forever

Oh, and then there was THIS:
http://biggameforever.org/blog/2011/...ss-and-beyond/

That goes with THIS......oopsie. Bribery check bounced:
http://www.montanademocrats.org/node/135

OH....And this, AGAIN:
http://www.huntersagainstpeta.com/em...g-game-forever

Finally:
http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/...s/nr_4069.html

AND:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...alism”


SFW members and those donating to BGF consists of mostly big hearted and good intentioned folks. We sportsmen and women / hunters)need a watchdog(pun intended) to monitor what the wolf loving crowd is doing so that states can be proactive. If that is BGF, then come clean, get 100% transparent, and adtually do work!!!!

I still think there is some good to come of all this. Somehow.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
SO you are happy with money getting dropped on "conservation projects but not happy with money getting spent on wildlife consulting and lobbying?????? As best I can tell you just don't understand what intellectual properties are and that they have value.
 
"Tristate - I applaud your passion. You come on here and defend your position no matter what, albeit lately you seem to be the one that can't see past the nose on his face."


Wait a minute. I am the one guy that did look past the nose on his face here. I warned every person, several months ago, when this whole audit thing started that this is how it would end. GO back and look. The people on this thread had already made up their minds that they did not like the way BGF was handed money, spent money, or trustable. I told them that if you audit them all you spend is more money to find out that you don't like how they are given money, spent money, and you still don't trust them. No money would be given back and no people would be indicted.

I never debated whether BGF should be given money or not. I never argued whether BGF was made up of honest people. All I have stated is this is a costly end around for a group of people who are trying to hide what their real issue is, Convention permits. If you want to say I am wrong, fine, but two people on this thread alone have finally admitted to it.
 
"That said, I thought I'd post a reminder of the "work" done by BFG to earn those hundreds of thousands of taxpayer funds. Oh, and I also spoke with my old media contact at the auditor general's office.....yeah, those auditors involved were paid the same amount of money they would have without the audit. The only additional expenses were some travel, postage, and a few materials. Rough estimate, a couple thousand bucks."

I can tell someone here has either never run a private corporation for profit or he is hoping everyone listening hasn't and he can BS them.
 
>"Tristate - I applaud your passion.
>You come on here and
>defend your position no matter
>what, albeit lately you seem
>to be the one that
>can't see past the nose
>on his face."
>
>
>Wait a minute. I am
>the one guy that did
>look past the nose on
>his face here. I
>warned every person, several months
>ago, when this whole audit
>thing started that this is
>how it would end.
>GO back and look.
>The people on this thread
>had already made up their
>minds that they did not
>like the way BGF was
>handed money, spent money, or
>trustable. I told them
>that if you audit them
>all you spend is more
>money to find out that
>you don't like how they
>are given money, spent money,
>and you still don't trust
>them. No money would
>be given back and no
>people would be indicted.
>
>I never debated whether BGF should
>be given money or not.
> I never argued whether
>BGF was made up of
>honest people. All I
>have stated is this is
>a costly end around for
>a group of people who
>are trying to hide what
>their real issue is, Convention
>permits. If you want
>to say I am wrong,
>fine, but two people on
>this thread alone have finally
>admitted to it.


Congrats. You sir, have just posted the dumbest damned thing I've ever read. And by dumb, that includes The Twilight Series, anything ever written claiming to improve odds of winning a lottery, and the report filed by Ryan Benson that triggered the requested audit to begin with. You can't look past your own arrogance to see that the state spent very little tax money in comparison to the tax money it paid out for supposed protecting, lobbying, and consulting on the wolf issue as it pertains to Utah's interests. Those funds were dispersed not just based on dishonesty, but obvious deception with the clear intent and desire to profit without any accountability. Do you always pay upfront for services rendered? Those state auditor employees would have been doing their job and getting paid their wage regardless of what they were auditing and who. The same scrutiny would, and should apply if it were the LDS (I am a member), Catholic, Baptist, Jewish churches, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, a pastor, preacher, or nun, and so on. ANYONE or ANY ENTITY should have to account for every penny they receive when that money comes from ANY public trust (CONVENTION TAGS) or holding (tax dollars). Period. All participants in the conservation tag program including SFW agreed to accounting for conservation tag moneys they generated for wildlife (public trust) and all that Utah taxpayers really expect is the same accountability with convention tags (public trust). If there is a profit to be made, so be it but call it that, account for it, and be honest about it so that other groups or individuals can bid on the 2016 contract. Isn't competition healthy for consumers (tax payers), Captain Capitalism?

Clearly, it doesn't matter what the issue is, you instantly take the adversarial roll when it comes to any evidence, statement, or actions that support the idea that SFW and BGF leadership is once again making a veiled promise to deliver something they not only can't deliver (400,000 or more mule deer in 20 years), but will take credit for if/when someone else does (the entire wolf delisting effort). I and others on MM have clearly laid out what was going on with Utah tax money and what the audit really shows. In the end, none of us in Utah have to convince you of jack crap nothing! You're not a resident of this state, so take your enthusiasm, passion, and boner for SFW and BGF's current business model and go to work trying to bring it to Texas where your opinion on your tax dollars actually matter. That is, between your mounting of animals. I'll send you a bill for my consulting fees.....just because.

I'm not even going to dignify your other two most recent posts by picking them apart, you're a really special kind of jackasss. I'll leave it at that and I too am done arguing with the idiot.



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
As I was reading these recent posts, a funny thought came to my mind and I almost started laughing. I bet that SFW, BGF, MDF and every other conservation group shudders at the thought of Tristate advocating for them on these forums. Can you imagine the sheer fright, embarrassment and disappointment that they must feel when they read one of these threads and see the type of illogical and circular arguments that he attempts to raise on their behalf. I have met with the leaders of each of these groups and they are all bright, well-spoken and logical. They certainly don't need the friendly taxidermist from Texas to carry their water. With friends and spokesmen like Tristate, who needs enemies?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"Congrats. You sir, have just posted the dumbest damned thing I've ever read. And by dumb, that includes The Twilight Series, anything ever written claiming to improve odds of winning a lottery, and the report filed by Ryan Benson that triggered the requested audit to begin with. You can't look past your own arrogance to see that the state spent very little tax money in comparison to the tax money it paid out for supposed protecting, lobbying, and consulting on the wolf issue as it pertains to Utah's interests. Those funds were dispersed not just based on dishonesty, but obvious deception with the clear intent and desire to profit without any accountability. Do you always pay upfront for services rendered? Those state auditor employees would have been doing their job and getting paid their wage regardless of what they were auditing and who. The same scrutiny would, and should apply if it were the LDS (I am a member), Catholic, Baptist, Jewish churches, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, a pastor, preacher, or nun, and so on. ANYONE or ANY ENTITY should have to account for every penny they receive when that money comes from ANY public trust (CONVENTION TAGS) or holding (tax dollars). Period. All participants in the conservation tag program including SFW agreed to accounting for conservation tag moneys they generated for wildlife (public trust) and all that Utah taxpayers really expect is the same accountability with convention tags (public trust). If there is a profit to be made, so be it but call it that, account for it, and be honest about it so that other groups or individuals can bid on the 2016 contract. Isn't competition healthy for consumers (tax payers), Captain Capitalism?"

I'll cut you a deal since you obviously can't comprehend what I write. I WILL LEAVE THIS SIGHT AND NEVER POST AGAIN ON THESE FORUMS if you can show anywhere where I have proclaimed people receiving public money should not have to provide accounting. Do it ,boy. You can't. You make up whatever garbage you want to believe but you go and quote me and all your problems are solved, boy. Go for it boy.

As for competition, I am all for it. Let someone else step up to make that bid for the $300k. That won't bother me in the least little bit. You think I am trying to protect BGF and that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't even care if BGF goes away forever as long as the DWR can step forward and fill their shoes. By the way if you go back and read the report that your state wrote you will see that the funds have been up for bid but no one else puts one out there.

"Clearly, it doesn't matter what the issue is, you instantly take the adversarial roll when it comes to any evidence, statement, or actions that support the idea that SFW and BGF leadership is once again making a veiled promise to deliver something they not only can't deliver (400,000 or more mule deer in 20 years), but will take credit for if/when someone else does (the entire wolf delisting effort)."

Then you go do better, boy. You go do it. Quit crying like a titty baby over money and you do it. Get off your lazy butt and actually design a plan that will bring back hundreds of thousands of mule deer. I don't mean get off your butt and cut down a juniper tree and pick up some loose wire. I mean get your head and butt wired together and actually make a plan that can improve mule deer. I bet you won't. Your only plan to help mule deer is attack BGF and SFW and put the convention permits back in the public draw. That won't save hunting in your state boy. GAURANTEED!

" I and others on MM have clearly laid out what was going on with Utah tax money and what the audit really shows. In the end, none of us in Utah have to convince you of jack crap nothing! You're not a resident of this state, so take your enthusiasm, passion, and boner for SFW and BGF's current business model and go to work trying to bring it to Texas where your opinion on your tax dollars actually matter. That is, between your mounting of animals. I'll send you a bill for my consulting fees.....just because."

I spend money in your state moron. I have a fiscal interest in your wildlife. For me its not just a hobby. This logic of only a resident should talk is asinine and childish and one more reason your states wildlife keeps circling the bowl. My state doesn't need a BGF or SFW. Our hunting industry is %98 privatized and we have more deer than we know what to do with. And before you go off on some High-fence barf you should know my state has more low fence property to hunt on than your entire state. Here wildlife has value. So much that we don't even care if our government agencies can misuse 300k. They get out of our way and we run the wildlife.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-13 AT 09:05AM (MST)[p]Show me where I have promoted BGF or SFW? I'll cut you the same deal I cut every one else here. Quote me And I am gone and out of your hair. Have I ever said the state should give BGF more money? Nope. Have I ever said BGF spent the money wisely? Nope. Have I ever claimed BGF to be the answer for your mule deer problems? Nope. Go back and find where I said any of these things and I am gone Hawkeye. Until then quit being some teenage girl who only hears what she wants and start reading my posts. I don't belong to these organizations. I don't donate time or money to them. I do this because wildlife and tax dollars are more important than your stupid crusade. I just believe rabid idiots spending more tax dollars fighting to pop a pimple on the a$$ of a monster is ludicrous. And all of it centers around a couple of hundred hunting tags. ITS RIDICULOUS! YOU ARE RIDICULOUS! ALL THESE KIDS HOPING EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO DUMB TO NOTICE THEIR AGENDAS ARE RIDICULOUS! MORE RIDICULOUS THAN SOME DUMB NOT FOR PROFIT GETTING GUBMINT MONEY!

Hawkeye, you would think a man in your position couldn't afford to look ridiculous.
 
Tristate-

I accept your derogatory comments as a badge of honor. You have absolutely no credibility on this forum (or anywhere else for that matter). I am pround to stand with sportsmen like dryflyelk, elkfromabove, azstickman, buttshot, deerlove and awholelottabull - all of whom you have criticized and attacked - who can see the problem we are facing. I am done feeding the troll. Goodbye.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Tri- Do you find it easy to hate someone you do not know?
Back at ya:0 Remember...Your words.LOL
Wait that's right your not sure if your Hank or Charley today.
Maybe you can argue with each one of your split alter demento's in the mirror. Maybe punish one of yourselves for failure to follow one of your own words of wisdom.LOL
 
"Sucks when you actually have to deal with the truth doesn't it Stickman."

Yes it does...... Can you remove the caveats?...... Terry
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-13 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]I accept you quiting three times as a badge of honor. How many times have you said you are done with this? You want to talk credibility???? Its a little late for you to take the high road.
 
If I hated you I would leave yall and your wildlife to your own demise. Just because someone isn't a yes man and a butt kisser doesn't mean he hates you. Quit being melodramatic. At least I can tell you are out there re-reading and quoting all I have said before and for that I thank you.
 
>Thanks, I got everything I needed
>from Posts #1,24,and 25...... Terry
>

YUP! Now go the hell away!!!!!

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Well, I'm not on Hawkeye's list, but I'm still pretty sure that after reading Douchestate's responses, we all feel like this dad did after listening to an hour of his daughter pull a world class fit. Enjoy!



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
. . . and kilbzdad. Sorry Shawn. I was just throwing out user names from memory. I have met many first class sportsmen on this site -- too many to list.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
No worries, Jason. You suggested some very fine people on your list. All with varied views on many aspects in life but share the same passion for hunting, fishing, and all wildlife. There are so many great sportsmen and women in Utah. Even in my own little strip of elk and mule deer heaven I struggle to remember everyone's names despite having been hunting in the same general area with them for at least a decade! Gets worse the older I get. Time for geritol, my vitamins, and an apple beer.

Oh, and I really don't care if he leaves MM or not. I'm not going to give that asshat from Texas the satisfaction of killing brain cells by reading his BS, no matter what the grand reward is! Time to move on.....

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Can you imagine the sheer fright, embarrassment and disappointment that they must feel when they read one of these threads and see the type of illogical and circular arguments that he attempts to raise on their behalf.

circular,,,,,, jocular,,, who the hell cares? If you can't make it in the debate club in High School,, keep trying.
Every time Tristate has been called to the rug , he changes his argument.
Quit feeding the troll, and lets find some kind of positive solution to the fleesing(?) of the sheep by the orgs that claim to be helping us.
 
Truths and half truths and all the different angles and spins. Now what was this post about.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
SIT DOWN, GRAB ON TO SOMETHING, HERE IT COMES, Tristate was right. YEAH DEAR GOD STRIKE ME DOWN NOW!!!! This chiping at the edges, muddying the water isn't working, and we are wasting time and money, yet BGF/$FW still does its backroom deals, and there are still all the conservation permits.

HAWKEYE, my friend, I have read everything you post because I believe you are the most informed and therefore smartest guy in here, so my question is this WHAT CAN WE DO? Can we sue the state? Sue the DWR? Sue MDF/$FW? Is their contract legally "watertight"? Is there a way to take on this cancer head on? I find these parasites EXTREMELY troublesome and my gut reaction is that I would love to expose them on a grand scale. Wouldn't a legal action force them to open themselves and there organizations up to public scrutiny? Is there something we can do to show how dirty these people are?

Yes I know that $FW/BGF do have in the trenches members who do great things, but that greatness is exploited by the directors who simply are in it to enrich themselves.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
An audit that finds major errors in the way that the State is doing business is not a waste of time and money.

The wheels are turning, the hunters in the state are supplying the grease and things are starting to move. If it weren't for concerned sportsmen, the audit never would've happened. It was NOT futile!

But, you will not see instantaneous results, things take time. Especially when the government and Big $$$ is involved.

We now live in a time of instant result and gratification... these are false realities.

A little study of history shows that change often takes years, even decades... we look at it through the perspective of a rearview mirror and don't recognize the blood and sweat that it took to make the change happen.

SFW/BGF will see major changes as future contracts are negotiated. Sportsmen, along with the Salt Lake Tribune, RMEF, and others, are making too much noise for these backroom deals to continue.

What did some of you expect to happen? There was no chance of this audit causing the world to crash down, checks to be cancelled, and money refunded. That is the movies, not the real world.

There have been some errors by multiple parties, an independent audit verified it, and improvement is coming. Just stay true to your beliefs and be a patient. Things take time.

A real man doesn't turn his back on something he believes in just because it is hard. We don't stomp our feet and cry, "I want it now." We buckle down, put our shoulder to the grindstone, and get stuff done.

Grizzly
 
I understand its not an overnight process, but I have yet to see BGF/$FW take any hit at all. By the time those two do new contracts they will be another name, or will have had a ton of time to "grease" politicians. What I am hoping for is to make them so toxic, PR wise, that our wonderful "leaders" in the state and within the DWR won't want to be smeared with there stink.

If I haven't said so previous, thank you to you guys that are smarter or better conected than me for all the work you do!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hey CAT, KTC PDEAR and all the other old timers. What did I tell all of you about turning a public commodity to private business?? Probably over ten years back??

This money is perpetual. It gets politicians bought and paid for, it lobbies to end hunts and reduce opportunity and it caters to making even more money.

Believe me now??

End it all. No more money of any kind should be earned from selling public property, that's the easy part. Hard part end the bonus point / entitlement / pyramid scheme and go to a straight luck of the draw for permits.

The money to keep de-listed wolves out of the state was every bit made possible by what I said above.










"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
grizzly-

That was a very good post. Sometimes we think that we can effect change over night but that rarely is the case when it comes to large politial issues. Due to the exposure and publicity regarding the convention permit issue over the last 18 months, the groups and the DWR have already implemented some modest changes. Kudos to them for listening. I am hoping that there will be further changes and improvements when the expo contract comes back up for renewal.

The same is true with regard to the money the DWR is giving SFW/BGF in the name of wolf delisting. The publicity and the legislative audit will likely lead to some changes. For instance, the DWR has already requested a year-end report for the current contract, which is something that was not required of SFW/BGF in the past. Hopefully, there will be more changes and improvements in the future.

My question is why does it take public outcry and a legislative audit before the state and the DWR realize that they have an obligation to carefully protect and manage public resources. Regardless of how you feel about SFW, BGF or any other group, don't we all agree that the state and the DWR should ensure that resources taken from sportsmen and taxpayers are used properly and that we are getting the biggest bang for the buck possible? Don't we all agree that if the state is going to hand money or permits over to a private group in the name of conservation then it should impose specific requirements on how that money is used and require strict accountability? That is what this is really about.

Thanks again grizzly.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"My question is why does it take public outcry and a legislative audit before the state and the DWR realize that they have an obligation to carefully protect and manage public resources. Regardless of how you feel about SFW, BGF or any other group, don't we all agree that the state and the DWR should ensure that resources taken from sportsmen and taxpayers are used properly and that we are getting the biggest bang for the buck possible?"



Really? You must be laughing so hard it makes it almost impossible to type that. Do you actually think ANYHTING government does will give you the "biggest bang for the buck possible"? What planet are you living on? The fact that 100% of your wildlife is under government control is practically a death sentence and recipe for catastrophe. The group of people who can't deliver the mail, can't spend within their means, and can't separate emotions from logic whatsoever, and you think if you whine to them they will somehow start giving you bang for your buck?????? Whining costs money! And these guys don't care if you whine because its other people's money!
 
^^^^^ That is funny right there.

Hawkeye, I'm with you 100%. I simply want to keep people's eye on the ball, keep expectations realistic and ignore those that try and interfere and distract from the real issues.

We'll get some of these problems fixed. We just need to stick together and be smart. This can be a win/win for sportsmen and wildlife if we play our cards right.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 07:53AM (MST)[p]I just thank god I was able to help keep this riff raff out of Arizona last year. Three TV news segments had them runnin out of the AZ statehouse. And the door definitely hit them in the a$$ on their way out! Haha! :) It will make my Kaibab late deer hunt that much more enjoyable next month. First time back since an elk hunt in 02'. Kuddos to those with the patience to continue posting and educating others on the runaway train criminals in Utah. I just found it much more productive & rewarding to take action via media coverage than post on these threads.

It's a lot easier to take precautionary measures to prevent cancer, than to get rid of it after it's occurred.

Funny, soon I'll be rifle hunting the same deer in AZ that summer in Utah where I should have drawn my bow tag 5 years ago had it not been for the tags being auctioned or raffled away. All's well that ends well! :)

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Zim,
Are you going to pass on a big buck that summered on the Kaibab just to make sure you shoot a Pauns buck??? How do you tell the difference???

Hawkeye and Grizzly,

So please elaborate on how you're going to improve our wildlife after you topple this so called evil empire. I'd love to hear all about it. And I'm 100% serious. Overthrowing a regime can often be detrimental if there is not a solid plan forward after the battles are won. Winning a battle to only lose the overall war is what concerns me. So tell us please how do plan to improve the states wildlife once you pull the perceived power and money from the SFW?
 
Muley,

I have asked them that time after time. Even on this thread I asked them. They never have an answer. They really don't even understand wildlife or conservation. This is no different than the siblings that argue over the same toy when there is a fricking Toys'R'Us on the other side of the street. They are so busy enslaved by selfishness and blind anger to realize if they learned how to make money and cross a street they could have all the toys in China.
 
Muley73 and tripster,

I dont think they are trying to shut them down. They are not lobbying to shut down BGF and $FW, but rather have them come clean with the money they are given. To me it clear. I dont think for 1 bit that its to shut them down. They ahve even said and agree that they have done some good things. INFACT, the 2 things that I really like rigth now of SFW is that they are trying to help the pheasant populations right now (1 of my favorite past times). The other is the deer transplant. Many say it wont work, but atleast they are trying.

Now with that said, if they could come clean with what they are doing with $$$ that is given them, I would love to be a member AGAIN, YES, AGAIN.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 09:49AM (MST)[p]Muley_73-

You have raised a legitimate question and it deserves a fair answer. First, let's be clear, these are my own thoughts and opinions. I will let grizzly, dryflyelk, robiland and others who have expressed concern regarding these issues speak for themselves. Second, I have never said anything about ?overthrowing regimes? or ?toppling evil empires.? You make it sound like we are trying to overthrow the Syrian government. I will leave complex matters like that to the Obama administration.

I have posted this many times but I will restate it here - I do not have an agenda to tear down SFW or BGF. Some people on this site may feel that way but not me. I was a member of SFW for several years and I appreciate many of the projects they do for conservation. Like many, however, I do not agree with the way that SFW and some of the other groups have been allowed to use public resources without any accountability or transparency. Now some may ask is this SFW/BGF?s fault or the DWR?s. I think both parties are culpable. The DWR has a responsibility to see that public resources and public monies are properly used and accounted for. They have failed us in this regard. However, SFW/BGF bear equal blame. If these groups lobby for a chunk of money or a handful of tags in the name of conservation then they should be prepared for sportsmen and the media to ask what are you doing with that money, and they better be able to show that it was used for actual conservation. Don?t tell us that you can't account for the money because it was commingled with other funds in your general account and used to pay salaries, bonuses and other general expenses. That is not acceptable.

This issue can be easily addressed without ?toppling any regimes? or ?overthrowing any empires.? It is this simple ? if the state or the DWR is going to entrust a private group with a public monies in the name of conservation then the DWR and the group should ensure that the monies will be spent on actual conservation and that the monies will be openly and properly accounted for. Some people on this forum may complain about the number of conservation permits, but one thing is clear ? the DWR and the conservation groups have established a careful system that ensures that at least 90% of the monies from those tags is spent on actual conservation. Why can't the DWR and these groups apply these same general principles in other areas?

Hopefully the State of Utah, the DWR and the conservation groups can figure out these issues and increase the transparency and accountability with regard to these public assets. If requiring certain groups to spend public money entrusted to them on actual conservation causes them to topple or go out of business, then so be it. There are many other quality organizations out there that are willing to do the right thing and account for public assets entrusted to their care.

On an unrelated note, congratulations on your archery bull elk. Based upon your post, it looks like you have a great time this season with friends and family in the field.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
I have been asking Muley73 time after time why BGF/SFW tried to kill the Simpson/Tester rider, he never has answered that. Also, was it because Muley73s daddy is an SWF good ole boy, that out of all the returning vets who would of like a free fishing trip to Alaska they just happened to pick Muley73s brother. Was his name drawn out of a hat? Did he win a rock, papar, scissor tournament with other vets? How was he the one chosen?

Douchstate, time after time, I've been asking you a question you won't answer. Why does some two bit hack of a TexASS taxadermist care some much about SFW?? Why don't you just worry about what goes on in your POS state and leave the rest of us alone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 11:36AM (MST)[p]"Douchstate, time after time, I've been asking you a question you won't answer. Why does some two bit hack of a TexASS taxadermist care some much about SFW?? Why don't you just worry about what goes on in your POS state and leave the rest of us alone."

I have answered that question literally dozens of times on these forums so don't turn yourself into a liar and say that I have not. If you are too stupid to understand the answer then there is no hope for you or the causes you champion.

By the way Muley, did you notice they still did not answer the question of what they want to do to fix the conservation issues.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 12:00PM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,
I understand what you are saying. However it just seems you ask and even when you get an answer you push more if its not what you wanted to hear. You say that you like many of the things SFW does, however you conitually try and cast a bad light on them and their deals. I get why you do what you do, I understand why some (a small handful) don't like the SFW I understand that some is on personal issues and some is on hear say of others. I personally don't care why you or any one else disapproves of the SFW or any other group. It's your personal choice. My question is what it is that you plan to do to help our wildlife if you or others were successful in bringing down an organization. I look at it this way, I do not always agree with SFW, never have. But they still get more done in Utah than any other group. So I see you attack them. I ask what do you bring to the table to help what I really care about, which is the wildlife. If it is something better than what the SFW offers then I'm all in. If it is just opposition without a vision and path to bettering our wildlife then I will fight against it. You are passionate without question and that I can respect. But the focus of your passion I disagree with. My hunt was a great family adventure. Shooting a 300+ bull with a bow has been on my bucket list since I was a teen. Thanks for the comments. Enjoyed your write up and pics as well, congrats on a beatiful bull.


shotgun,
My oh my you are a hateful childish person. The only reason you are able to hammer me about personal things is because I don't hide behind a screen name and I own my comments and personal views. Tristate does the same thing. Until you do then I would never ever answer any question you ask..... your not even a real person or relevant in the scheme of things. I do see you at least have a name on your profile now, maybe your growing up a little.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]>Zim,
>Are you going to pass on
>a big buck that summered
>on the Kaibab just to
>make sure you shoot a
>Pauns buck??? How do you
>tell the difference???

I don't know and I don't care. It is the fair opportunity that matters. The opportunity for a quality hunting experience that I paid my money for and waited my turn in line for 17 years, in a quality managed non-corrupt state that does not screw non-residents with tag thefts, riff raff smoke and mirror orgs, and watered down draw odds. That is good enough for me. And every second I am in Arizona I will be proud of what I did for all honest sportsmen, definitely not just myself.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 12:33?PM (MST)

>Muley73 and tripster,
>
>I dont think they are trying
>to shut them down.
>They are not lobbying to
>shut down BGF and $FW,
>but rather have them come
>clean with the money they
>are given. To me
>it clear. I dont
>think for 1 bit that
>its to shut them down.
> They ahve even said
>and agree that they have
>done some good things.
>INFACT, the 2 things that
>I really like rigth now
>of SFW is that they
>are trying to help the
>pheasant populations right now (1
>of my favorite past times).
> The other is the
>deer transplant. Many say
>it wont work, but atleast
>they are trying.
>
>Now with that said, if they
>could come clean with what
>they are doing with $$$
>that is given them, I
>would love to be a
>member AGAIN, YES, AGAIN.

They pheasant's are majority roosters. As is the case with almost all sfw initiatives concerning population, someone in that "think tank" is under the impression that male animals can give birth. And when are the sky predators going to be put in check because there are plenty of toothed predators on the ground munching on birds, but the most active to take out what is left of the farm bred and then released population, after hunters, are those from the air. Why aren't they releasing more in the southern region? There is more natural forage, cover, and better climate than up north. But I'm not a bird expert, just going on common sense in that regard.

Regarding the translocation of deer. I was on the range ride with the biologists and members of sfw and other groups where it was first discussed in public. Leary of intentions, UWC and others supported the project on the grounds that no public money was used on a futile experiment until there was something viable. The division and sfw agreed and the COR was issued with the expressed limitation that no public monies were to be alocated. There's a dicotomy in and of itself in the giving of public animals to a private organization to "study" when we could have generated money for more doe tags and allowed hunters the opportunity to harvest meat and help that particular winter range. Then, the real intentions of Don and sfw came to light with the "sacrificial anode theory" in this email:

From: Don Peay [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:41 AM
To: David Smedley, XXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: Some additional thoughts



"David


Thanks for your analysis, and the additional thoughts and the conservative or cautious estimate and cause of unknown deaths.


In late August, you reported on dead deer found and unharmed, the rest have been scavenged

5. thoughts

1. Do deer just fall over and die in good habitat in the summer, when other deer are showing no signs of disease?

2. If you assume a random distribution of deer dying from say the Monday they were checked, till they were found dead the next Monday, a fair number of deer would have died in the Friday, Saturday, or Sunday and the fact all but one dead deer has been scavenged, coyote death is probably a good probability of death. I doubt most of the deer died on Tuesday or Wednesday of natural causes giving coyotes 3 to 5 days to find them and scavenge them.

3. I think one enhancement of the study next year is to not look for fawns until September. Jim Karpowitz said several times from his deer study it is futile looking for fawns until late August, or September. And the. Focus could be greater intensity on finding the cause of death in 7 days interim from survey.

4. Sacrificial anode theory. I think this study is proving the sportsmen right, and the DWR right. The DWR - specifically former game manager mike welch - that the transplanted deer didn't do as well as natives. However, sportsmen might be right, the transplanted Deer take some pressure from predation of native herds. Thus, in the end, a successful restoration of the Henry Mountain deer herd. A combination of better habitat, water,predator control, and transplants. in engineering, sometimes you attach a piece of zinc to a copper pipe. The system has unsolvable corrosion problems, so you put something for the corrosion to eat and let your pipes alone.

5. For these coyotes to be scavenging every caucus shows there are still way to many coyotes, and there ought to be a super intensive coyote control program the next five months. This study isn't to see if coyotes or predators kill deer. The objective as I understand it is to see if Deer can be transplanted, and increase deer populations


Sorry, the old scientist comes out in me once in a while, and these are some facts to consider.

Thanks for the persistent hard work. Very valuable information, we are not doing a study. We are getting data to design, engineer, build and sustain abundant deer herds!"

Don Peay


The transplant now has taken on a beast that clearly is in line with why so many sportsmen are turning tail and running from sfw. Plus, the lies espoused by sfw and bgf leadership are becoming more transparent than their accounting of public money. They have now resorted to convincing people they are the only ones doing anything or "at least we are trying" which couldn't be further from the truth.

The audit clearly shows the issues and hopefully the temporary recommendations are adopted and in the future, any public money or public trust given to them will be accounted for so that there is no reason to question their intentions. That is the ultimate goal, accountability and honesty does nothing BUT benefit the groups, sportsmen, and wildlife.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 

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