Oak Creeks is way down. Just an FYI post.

Letshunt

Letshunt

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In 2018 or 2019 there was a very poor fawn survival rate. Since 2018 the amount of tags given on the oak creeks has risen.
2017:
Archery: 6 tags
Muzzy: 6 tags
Rifle: 16 draw tags
Landowner 6 tags
Conservation tags: 1-2 tags

2022:
Archery: 8 tags
Muzzy: 8 tags
Rifle: 20 tags.
Landowner 6 tags
Conservation: 2-5 tags. (Possibly higher)
Not including the sportsman’s tag has killed in this unit and so has the governors tag.


The amount of deer is roughly the same. It’s the quality that is way down from where it was at during its peak. The amount of applicants has doubled and even tripled for some hunts.

Some people say it’s the late green up that is the problem which I believe is a factor. Others believe that it was the shape the deer were in after the harsh winter. Others say it is the fact that there is almost 0 five year old deer on the unit from the almost non existent fawn survival rate of 2018 for there being such poor quality this year.

The lack of fawn survival rate in 2018 is a huge factor for there not being many big deer this year but the tag increase has also hurt it pretty bad. Another huge reason is: The top end has been shot out. 6-8 year old deer are pretty much non existent. This years rifle hunt will be a massacre of so many 3-4 year old deer with amazing genetics. Many will fall in the 180-190” range. Which for the last 7 years those deer were never considered by almost every hunter who drew the tag. But they will be a trophy this year.

So with a missing an age class and the increase of tags and a ton of the younger bucks getting killed this week, the oak creeks will never touch what it used to be unless they change it from a regular LE unit and move it to a premium LE unit and lower the tags again to make it managed for more higher buck/does ratio. Every one who left the Henrie’s and pauns to come to the oaks might want to change course because the oak creeks is in bad shape for high end mule deer.

How often do you see a hunter buy a tag for 70k and then turn around and sell it for almost half of what he bought it for? That should tell you that all the mossback guides(that know the unit extremely well) haven’t found anything worth the amount he spent for it. And that’s the feeling of every other guide that I have talked to. They have never seen it this bad in the last 7+years. There is one legit buck and he’s on private property and a very hefty price was paid by an outfitter to hunt this one specific deer.
 
So the oak Creek is becoming more like what a normal LE should look like. Well that's a real shame. If that unit moves to a premium unit, it's for one reason and that's to grab more money. The land owners want more for their vouchers and the outfitters want more from their clients. While the average Joe takes the biggest hit and watches point creep go out of sight. We don't need another premium unit. As long as the buck/ doe ratios keep rising, then they most definitely should give out more tag.
 
Want more for their vouchers? How much more

2055FBE0-EED9-4FA0-B654-7561EBE1D27E.png
 
We Could use Some More PREMIUM Units!

But They'd Need To Be PREMIUM!

Not A PREMIUM Price For A F'N PISSCUTTER Hunt!



ridgetops said:
So the oak Creek is becoming more like what a normal LE should look like. Well that's a real shame. If that unit moves to a premium unit, it's for one reason and that's to grab more money. The land owners want more for their vouchers and the outfitters want more from their clients. While the average Joe takes the biggest hit and watches point creep go out of sight. We don't need another premium unit. As long as the buck/ doe ratios keep rising, then they most definitely should give out more tag.
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So the sportsman's tag and governors tag were filled in this unit. A bunch of 3-4 year old bucks that will probably score 180-190" will be massacred this year? Less than 50 total tags given out this year. How is the unit "way down". Age class? For the last 7 years most hunters wouldn't shoot a 180-190" buck? I can't think of to many places this would apply to.
 
ridgetops said:
. Which unit would you hunt if you had max?
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I am really good friends with Travis Roundy. We have talked about the oaks and pauns a ton. Based off of his knowledge and the videos of the bucks I have seen. I would hunt the pauns. The top 5-8 bucks he showed me were 10-20” bigger than anything on the oaks this year.
 
Elkslayer said:
There's 7-8 landowner tags sold, but I'm pretty sure the unit will be fine. I haven't heard much complaints about people not finding shooter bucks. The unit is managed for bucks around 170".
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I understand the “management” plan that the dwr has for the unit. I also know what the standard has been for the previous 6-9 years in the unit. It was the top unit for the last 6 years as far as the amount of 200” mule deer that were killed on the unit. That’s the standard I’m comparing it to.

There are a lot of hunters complaining this year and not just the big money people that are selling their tags. They applied hoping the standard would remain somewhat close to what it has been in the past.

Let’s compare this year to years prior. By the Eve of the rifle hunt there has been 2-4 200” mule deer killed this year. (Depending on who’s taping them) That’s out of 20-22 tags roughly with some of the landowner tag holders choosing archery and muzzy. In years past, it was “normal” and expected that 14-16 bucks killed out of the 20-22 tags had been 200” mule deer. And that wasn’t just one amazing moisture year. That was normal.

So yes according to what the dwr wants to manage, the oaks for is on par with 175” mule deer. But it’s a damn shame. It should have been changed to a premium unit and kept at the highest quality possible. There is tons of winter feeding areas available, mild winters, really good fawn survival rates except (2018) and enough predator hunting going on to keep this unit at its peak for a long long time.

All the people who jumped ship based off of past performance of the unit have felt that their 23-26 points have been a disappointment of a tag this year and it doesn’t look like it’s going to get any better.
 
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Letshunt said:
I understand the “management” plan that the dwr has for the unit. I also know what the standard has been for the previous 6-9 years in the unit. It was the top unit for the last 6 years as far as the amount of 200” mule deer that were killed on the unit. That’s the standard I’m comparing it to.

There are a lot of hunters complaining this year and not just the big money people that are selling their tags. They applied hoping the standard would remain somewhat close to what it has been in the past.

Let’s compare this year to years prior. By the Eve of the rifle hunt there has been 2-4 200” mule deer killed this year. (Depending on who’s taping them) That’s out of 20-22 tags roughly with some of the landowner tag holders choosing archery and muzzy. In years past, it was “normal” and expected that 14-16 bucks killed out of the 20-22 tags had been 200” mule deer. And that wasn’t just one amazing moisture year. That was normal.

So yes according to what the dwr wants to manage, the oaks for is on par with 175” mule deer. But it’s a damn shame. It should have been changed to a premium unit and kept at the highest quality possible. There is tons of winter feeding areas available, mild winters, really good fawn survival rates except (2018) and enough predator hunting going on to keep this unit at its peak for a long long time.

All the people who jumped ship based off of past performance of the unit have felt that their 23-26 points have been a disappointment of a tag this year and it doesn’t look like it’s going to get any better.
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Sounds like you spend a lot of time on the unit. That’s a shame that it’s gone down hill so bad and won’t get any better. Just curious who were “the others” That blame the bad shape of the deer after the harsh winter? Maybe I missed something there but I don’t recall seeing a single deer in poor shape coming out of the winter and there were still an amazing amount of fawns that made it through the winter in fine shape.

Did Doyle tell you why that tag was being resold? Was it because there aren’t any big bucks left or did the original buyer have other obligations or issues that kept him from the hunt?
 
Here’s a thought. Maybe all these guides aren’t quite the mule deer whisperers they claim to be and can’t find the biggest and best bucks out there without the help of 127 trail cams each.

I guarantee this is a factor. Let’s wait another three to four weeks and see what shows up when the rut kicks in. That will definitely tell us what’s still on the unit.
 
Letshunt said:
I understand the “management” plan that the dwr has for the unit. I also know what the standard has been for the previous 6-9 years in the unit. It was the top unit for the last 6 years as far as the amount of 200” mule deer that were killed on the unit. That’s the standard I’m comparing it to.

There are a lot of hunters complaining this year and not just the big money people that are selling their tags. They applied hoping the standard would remain somewhat close to what it has been in the past.

Let’s compare this year to years prior. By the Eve of the rifle hunt there has been 2-4 200” mule deer killed this year. (Depending on who’s taping them) That’s out of 20-22 tags roughly with some of the landowner tag holders choosing archery and muzzy. In years past, it was “normal” and expected that 14-16 bucks killed out of the 20-22 tags had been 200” mule deer. And that wasn’t just one amazing moisture year. That was normal.

So yes according to what the dwr wants to manage, the oaks for is on par with 175” mule deer. But it’s a damn shame. It should have been changed to a premium unit and kept at the highest quality possible. There is tons of winter feeding areas available, mild winters, really good fawn survival rates except (2018) and enough predator hunting going on to keep this unit at its peak for a long long time.

All the people who jumped ship based off of past performance of the unit have felt that their 23-26 points have been a disappointment of a tag this year and it doesn’t look like it’s going to get any better.
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Yet, you would consider hunting it if you had max points? I still can't wrap my head around 20 tags a year ruins a unit. a unit that's produced 80%, 200" deer the past 6 years. I'm definitely applying for that unit! But I think I only have 16 points. I guess I'll have to shoot one of those 190" dinks.
 
heywouldya said:
Yet, you would consider hunting it if you had max points? I still can't wrap my head around 20 tags a year ruins a unit. a unit that's produced 80%, 200" deer the past 6 years. I'm definitely applying for that unit! But I think I only have 16 points. I guess I'll have to shoot one of those 190" dinks.
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No if I had max points I’d try and draw a pauns tag. 190” deer are still big deer. The post was meant for people to understand that the ceiling of the unit has dropped considerably. When people spend 23-26 years of points, they hope to have a chance for something bigger. And that hope is based off of what it had been like for 6-7 years. It’s not like that this year and won’t be unless something changes.
 
deadibob said:
Here’s a thought. Maybe all these guides aren’t quite the mule deer whisperers they claim to be and can’t find the biggest and best bucks out there without the help of 127 trail cams each.

I guarantee this is a factor. Let’s wait another three to four weeks and see what shows up when the rut kicks in. That will definitely tell us what’s still on the unit.
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Most guides never ran more than 20 cameras in the unit. The amount of time combined scouting and hunting is why guides are successful.
 
Letshunt said:
No if I had max points I’d try and draw a pauns tag. 190” deer are still big deer. The post was meant for people to understand that the ceiling of the unit has dropped considerably. When people spend 23-26 years of points, they hope to have a chance for something bigger. And that hope is based off of what it had been like for 6-7 years. It’s not like that this year and won’t be unless something changes.
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I think the real reason for this post is because you want to draw the unit and you are trying to discourage others so that you will have better odds next year.?

The small increase this unit has had in tags hasn’t hurt the buck numbers nearly as much as moving the boundary has increased the amount of bucks saved. Not allowing the locals to shoot the deer coming out of the fields every morning before they could make it to the forest boundary has made a big difference.

The rifle hunt just started today and already you think the sky is falling because there hasn’t been over a dozen 200”+ bucks killed yet. Even if there weren’t any killed this year doesn’t necessarily mean a trend. There are often other factors involved that can create a one year anomaly like me taking those other 100+ trail cams for instance.?
 
lif said:
So is this correct: If I wait 23-26 years with my points I should be guaranteed to kill a 200” deer? I can do that. ?
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There’s never a guarantee in hunting. When I started applying for deer on OC 20+ years ago, I mainly did it because I had already spent time and hunted on that mountain. My dad hunted it as a kid, my grandfather hunted it, my great grandfather hunted, etc… when I started applying, quality of the deer really was the least of my reasons for applying. I figured I’d draw a tag with a handful of points and continue the tradition. But things have certainly changed over the course of the past 2+ decades. And now, having almost a 1/4 century into this, yeah, my expectations are a lot higher than they once were. All of a sudden this is a “once in a lifetime” deal. But again, there are no guarantees. But you can guarantee that I’m going to shoot for the moon.
 
We all knew it was coming.
You can't congregate the best outfitters, guides and high dollar tags for consecutive years and keep getting world class results, especially when recruitment hasn't kept up with demands.
Sooner or later you're finally down to the milk after skimming all the cream.
 
Letshunt said:
Most guides never ran more than 20 cameras in the unit. The amount of time combined scouting and hunting is why guides are successful.
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You're making it sound like there's only approximately 20 camera's on the unit.
How many outfits are hunting this landscape?
And how many exceptional hunters running cams that aren't associated with outfitters?
I would almost bet my IRA's there are well over 100+ camera's watching this unit.
 
Letshunt said:
I understand the “management” plan that the dwr has for the unit. I also know what the standard has been for the previous 6-9 years in the unit. It was the top unit for the last 6 years as far as the amount of 200” mule deer that were killed on the unit. That’s the standard I’m comparing it to.

There are a lot of hunters complaining this year and not just the big money people that are selling their tags. They applied hoping the standard would remain somewhat close to what it has been in the past.

Let’s compare this year to years prior. By the Eve of the rifle hunt there has been 2-4 200” mule deer killed this year. (Depending on who’s taping them) That’s out of 20-22 tags roughly with some of the landowner tag holders choosing archery and muzzy. In years past, it was “normal” and expected that 14-16 bucks killed out of the 20-22 tags had been 200” mule deer. And that wasn’t just one amazing moisture year. That was normal.

So yes according to what the dwr wants to manage, the oaks for is on par with 175” mule deer. But it’s a damn shame. It should have been changed to a premium unit and kept at the highest quality possible. There is tons of winter feeding areas available, mild winters, really good fawn survival rates except (2018) and enough predator hunting going on to keep this unit at its peak for a long long time.

All the people who jumped ship based off of past performance of the unit have felt that their 23-26 points have been a disappointment of a tag this year and it doesn’t look like it’s going to get any better.
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It was discussed last year of making the move to premium in the board meeting when they was discussing tag increases. My guess is it will make the jump this year. Only down side. Management hunt is coming with it when they do. So they’ll cancel out any success that would come from its move if they do that.
 
west_desert said:
It was discussed last year of making the move to premium in the board meeting when they was discussing tag increases. My guess is it will make the jump this year. Only down side. Management hunt is coming with it when they do. So they’ll cancel out any success that would come from its move if they do that.
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Do tell how a management hunt would negatively affect the unit if moved to premium?
 
I'm flabbergasted.

I've been told by the MM biologists that if we just limited tags, all would fall in place.

And now I'm reading that fawn mortality is an issue?

Well son of a beetch.

I mean look how many 170" +bucks have been killed out there? That's all that matters right?


Further. Sure is good all you jokers took tag cuts, so Doyle could go shoot out ANOTHER unit. Congrats
 
So now the Elk aren't worth it(Doyle said he'd never guide gov elk again)?,? the Henries are shot out, the Oak creeks are shot out.

Guys wait their entire life for a tag that gets bought yearly, guides shoot it out, move on to the next, and same guy is left holding the bag.

Seems like perhaps we need to address corporate hunting ?
 
JakeH said:
Do tell how a management hunt would negatively affect the unit if moved to premium?
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The
JakeH said:
Do tell how a management hunt would negatively affect the unit if moved to premium?
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One of the deer that made this unit famous was a 3x4 with extras. This deer would have been killed on a “management” hunt in November after he broke his extras off. 3x4 is a fairly dominant gene. So after a few years 6-9 extra mature deer. Off a unit that is now struggling. Will send it right into the dirt.
 
hossblur said:
So now the Elk aren't worth it(Doyle said he'd never guide gov elk again)?,? the Henries are shot out, the Oak creeks are shot out.

Guys wait their entire life for a tag that gets bought yearly, guides shoot it out, move on to the next, and same guy is left holding the bag.

Seems like perhaps we need to address corporate hunting ?
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Utards are too busy telling other states how to manage their wildlife to care hossy.
 
slamdunk said:
You're making it sound like there's only approximately 20 camera's on the unit.
How many outfits are hunting this landscape?
And how many exceptional hunters running cams that aren't associated with outfitters?
I would almost bet my IRA's there are well over 100+ camera's watching this unit.
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And at least another 100 "tourists" roaming around bird watching.
 
SS! said:
Utards are too busy telling other states how to manage their wildlife to care hossy.
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You do realize that this website/platform that you spend every hour of every day posting comments on was created and is managed by UTARDS right? Just sayin....
 
west_desert said:
The

One of the deer that made this unit famous was a 3x4 with extras. This deer would have been killed on a “management” hunt in November after he broke his extras off. 3x4 is a fairly dominant gene. So after a few years 6-9 extra mature deer. Off a unit that is now struggling. Will send it right into the dirt.
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Seriously that is your answer? Broken points? Come on now, you got to have a better answer then that. That's just silly.

They have had management hunts on the pauns, and Henry's for how many years? How many of those bucks being killed have been bucks with busted up antlers? My guess is not many at all.

Personally I wish they would implement management tags on every LE unit.
 
slamdunk said:
You're making it sound like there's only approximately 20 camera's on the unit.
How many outfits are hunting this landscape?
And how many exceptional hunters running cams that aren't associated with outfitters?
I would almost bet my IRA's there are well over 100+ camera's watching this unit.
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I didn’t make it sound like there are 20 cameras. I said most guides run less than 20. Most serious hunters who draw the tag probably run 8-20. So yes with everyone combined there are definitely more than 100+ cameras. Just like on every other LE unit.
 
slamdunk said:
Not trying to minimize your comment, but I think it's fair to say social media ruined that unit......along with several others.
"Likes" = ?
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The Mossback buisness model ruined it, along with others.

The model(copied by many) is wildly successful at killing big animals, but a complete deathblow to the units future.

The issue isn't the tags, it's HOW the tags are hunted.
 
I can vouch for this post. I have a tag and I've put in 20+ days scouting, tons of miles, glassing, and 3 days hunting. This has been the toughest hunt I've ever been on, hands down. I spoke with the DWR officer that manages this unit before the hunt and he told me that the fawn survival rate was very low 4-6 years ago due to the drought. Yes, there are deer here, but from everything that I've learned, the number of older bucks are down this year and they are extremely hard to find. The guides do a great job and have helped the archery hunters to clean house this year, a few on the muzzleloader hunt, and guides have helped a handful of rifle hunters harvest great bucks. I've spoken to several hardcore, dedicated DIY hunters that have had a very hard time turning up a giant buck, myself included. I know of a muzzleloader tag that was turned in one week before the hunt because the guy knew it was a bad year and didn't want to burn the points. I have spoken to others that did not fill an archery or muzzleloader tag this year. I have seen several small bucks, so I'm thinking this unit will be better 3-4 years from now, but it's hard to say. As of right now, I'm worried that I will not fill my tag. It's honestly hard to recommend this unit to anyone, even though there are deer here.
 
slamdunk said:
You're making it sound like there's only approximately 20 camera's on the unit.
How many outfits are hunting this landscape?
And how many exceptional hunters running cams that aren't associated with outfitters?
I would almost bet my IRA's there are well over 100+ camera's watching this unit.
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hossblur said:
About 5x that over
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One guy can only take so many out??
 
801local said:
I can vouch for this post. I have a tag and I've put in 20+ days scouting, tons of miles, glassing, and 3 days hunting. This has been the toughest hunt I've ever been on, hands down. I spoke with the DWR officer that manages this unit before the hunt and he told me that the fawn survival rate was very low 4-6 years ago due to the drought. Yes, there are deer here, but from everything that I've learned, the number of older bucks are down this year and they are extremely hard to find. The guides do a great job and have helped the archery hunters to clean house this year, a few on the muzzleloader hunt, and guides have helped a handful of rifle hunters harvest great bucks. I've spoken to several hardcore, dedicated DIY hunters that have had a very hard time turning up a giant buck, myself included. I know of a muzzleloader tag that was turned in one week before the hunt because the guy knew it was a bad year and didn't want to burn the points. I have spoken to others that did not fill an archery or muzzleloader tag this year. I have seen several small bucks, so I'm thinking this unit will be better 3-4 years from now, but it's hard to say. As of right now, I'm worried that I will not fill my tag. It's honestly hard to recommend this unit to anyone, even though there are deer here.
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Last year there were more fawns than I recall ever seeing on the unit so the future will be good
 
slamdunk said:
If they've only got 20 on OC, I'd be surprised.
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If they only have 20 left out after the closed season I’d be surprised!

Units have always been cyclical. There are up cycles and down cycles. Maybe OC is going into a down cycle because of that fawn crop issue. The Pauns went through a down cycle and has trended back upward. Henry’s the same over time.

We see it on elk units as well. It’s almost as if the tip top “best ever” years of measuring antlers is not sustainable over long periods of time. I wonder why?
 
Vanilla said:
If they only have 20 left out after the closed season I’d be surprised!

Units have always been cyclical. There are up cycles and down cycles. Maybe OC is going into a down cycle because of that fawn crop issue. The Pauns went through a down cycle and has trended back upward. Henry’s the same over time.

We see it on elk units as well. It’s almost as if the tip top “best ever” years of measuring antlers is not sustainable over long periods of time. I wonder why?
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Opportunists are the reason
 
slamdunk said:
Yes, but in time that one guys camera count can be infectious.
During the ban negotiations, i remember one of WLH guides saying they have 2000 cameras spread out throughout the state.
If they've only got 20 on OC, I'd be surprised.
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slamdunk said:
Yes, but in time that one guys camera count can be infectious.
During the ban negotiations, i remember one of WLH guides saying they have 2000 cameras spread out throughout the state.
If they've only got 20 on OC, I'd be surprised.
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By take them out I meant “vigilante Justice” take them out dead or alive?. A crusade of cleaning trash off the mountain. I can hear the girlyman panties getting wadded up already???

And no I don’t remove them and I’ve never set one out either?
 
west_desert said:
It was discussed last year of making the move to premium in the board meeting when they was discussing tag increases. My guess is it will make the jump this year. Only down side. Management hunt is coming with it when they do. So they’ll cancel out any success that would come from its move if they do that.
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Hey what has every premium le done? … went down hill. I know the unit as well as anyone. A management hunt wouldn’t hurt the quality. I’d say 90 % of the bucks killed are 4 and younger. They are just starting to get big. Imagine if they had a few more years. There is a bad 2point and 3point gene there. Hence the management hunt
 
I hunter the unit last year on the rifle hunt. Seen at least 20 bucks everyday. Could not find the buck I was looking for. Seen him 2 days before the hunt opened. Passed many 160-180 type bucks. Ended up shooting a 190" buck on the 5th day of the hunt. I probably only scouted about 10% of the unit. In my opinion the unit was everything I expected. A chance at really big buck and many deer to look at. I literally found deer in every canyon I looked.
 
Oldschoolhunter said:
I hunter the unit last year on the rifle hunt. Seen at least 20 bucks everyday. Could not find the buck I was looking for. Seen him 2 days before the hunt opened. Passed many 160-180 type bucks. Ended up shooting a 190" buck on the 5th day of the hunt. I probably only scouted about 10% of the unit. In my opinion the unit was everything I expected. A chance at really big buck and many deer to look at. I literally found deer in every canyon I looked.
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Finally, someone telling the truth.
 
My update from the original post:
Spent 3 days at the end of the season on the unit helping friends and family who had tags. After the first day of season they hadn’t been able to locate a 180-190” deer. They had hunted extremely hard but with no luck. In those 3 days, we saw 35-40 bucks. Only 1 was pushing 180” and he was a 3x4. They were rutting like crazy. Most of the bucks we saw were 3x4s and fairly narrow. We did see a 5-6 bucks that were 160-170”. I also received lots of pictures of bucks that were killed and albeit a trophy to the hunter(150-160”) were not anything close to what the unit has been offering the last 7-9 years. Which was my main point from the original post. I’m not saying everyone should be guaranteed a 190”+ deer just because they drew an oak creek tag. I am saying the unit has fallen off in a massive way and that’s the truth. The top has been getting killed off for far too many years. With the increase in tags and hunting pressure from so many guiding companies on the top end deer, you are finally seeing the results from that. The age class isn’t there and I don’t think will ever get back to where it was unless it’s made into a premium unit where they are allowed to reduce tag numbers and manage for older age class deer. The wildlife biologists that are over the unit are great people and do an amazing job. But their hands were tied to the original deer management plan so they had to manage it accordingly which demanded for tag increases.

Side note: the biggest deer killed on the rifle hunt was 200-205”. There may have been 2-3 of those. Where in years past it was closer to 10-15. It wasn’t that long ago where there were multiple 220-230”+ deer running around and getting killed on that unit each year. Three years ago it had 2 deer that hit the 260” mark. If I had max points, I would find another unit.
 
Letshunt said:
My update from the original post:
Spent 3 days at the end of the season on the unit helping friends and family who had tags. After the first day of season they hadn’t been able to locate a 180-190” deer. They had hunted extremely hard but with no luck. In those 3 days, we saw 35-40 bucks. Only 1 was pushing 180” and he was a 3x4. They were rutting like crazy. Most of the bucks we saw were 3x4s and fairly narrow. We did see a 5-6 bucks that were 160-170”. I also received lots of pictures of bucks that were killed and albeit a trophy to the hunter(150-160”) were not anything close to what the unit has been offering the last 7-9 years. Which was my main point from the original post. I’m not saying everyone should be guaranteed a 190”+ deer just because they drew an oak creek tag. I am saying the unit has fallen off in a massive way and that’s the truth. The top has been getting killed off for far too many years. With the increase in tags and hunting pressure from so many guiding companies on the top end deer, you are finally seeing the results from that. The age class isn’t there and I don’t think will ever get back to where it was unless it’s made into a premium unit where they are allowed to reduce tag numbers and manage for older age class deer. The wildlife biologists that are over the unit are great people and do an amazing job. But their hands were tied to the original deer management plan so they had to manage it accordingly which demanded for tag increases.

Side note: the biggest deer killed on the rifle hunt was 200-205”. There may have been 2-3 of those. Where in years past it was closer to 10-15. It wasn’t that long ago where there were multiple 220-230”+ deer running around and getting killed on that unit each year. Three years ago it had 2 deer that hit the 260” mark. If I had max points, I would find another unit.
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I believe you and would say I’m not surprised…… in any way. Quite predictable actually. Status quo management in my opinion……. which is worth less than a $1 Coke at Mickey Ds.
 
2lumpy said:
I believe you and would say I’m not surprised…… in any way. Quite predictable actually. Status quo management in my opinion……. which is worth less than a $1 Coke at Mickey Ds.
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There's nothing wrong with the way the unit is being managed. The only reason the tags were so low a few years ago is because the buck/ doe ratio was lower than what the unit was being managed for. Now the buck/doe ratio is above the 35/100 ratio that it's managed for. So hopefully more tags will be given out next year. People were saying the same thing about our elk LE units 10-12 years ago. There were all those 400" bulls being killed in the early 2000s and then the surplus bulls were available to be hunted and a lot more tags were given out. It ended up lowering the age class, which was not a bad thing. It has given thousands of hunters an awesome experience to hunt a unit with a higher buck/bull ratios than they're used to hunting. I beg the wildlife board to leave the oak creek unit as is. If it does change to a premium unit. I will be very disappointed. Please don't let greed be the deciding factor.
 
ridgetops said:
There's nothing wrong with the way the unit is being managed. The only reason the tags were so low a few years ago is because the buck/ doe ratio was lower than what the unit was being managed for. Now the buck/doe ratio is above the 35/100 ratio that it's managed for. So hopefully more tags will be given out next year. People were saying the same thing about our elk LE units 10-12 years ago. There were all those 400" bulls being killed in the early 2000s and then the surplus bulls were available to be hunted and a lot more tags were given out. It ended up lowering the age class, which was not a bad thing. It has given thousands of hunters an awesome experience to hunt a unit with a higher buck/bull ratios than they're used to hunting. I beg the wildlife board to leave the oak creek unit as is. If it does change to a premium unit. I will be very disappointed. Please don't let greed be the deciding factor.
Click to expand...
We can disagree and that’s ok. I think there should be more premium units in Utah that actually produce high end mule deer. Very few units have the genetics and winter range to support it. The oak creek range has everything you want and need to grow big deer. This unit has the potential to be the very best unit in all of utah. It was the best unit from 2015-2021. I hope the board decides to make it premium and reward those who have put in for 2.5 decades with the chance to chase a world class mule deer at least once in their life.
The Fillmore pahvant unit (elk) used to be the best in the state and now is straight garbage! How did that plan work to give more people opportunity? More opportunity comes at a cost. Quality suffers tremendously. I am for opportunity but I also think there needs to be a balance and not have it be all about opportunity.
 
So a unit gets made into a Limited Entry unit and on its own turns into a premium unit—not on paper, but in the minds of most who have a lot of points and the guides.

Then the guides and people who hunt with a pose kill off the top end bucks that have not many places to hide—-and now people want it to be made into a premium unit to “save it”?

Is that what this is all about?
 
Letshunt said:
We can disagree and that’s ok. I think there should be more premium units in Utah that actually produce high end mule deer. Very few units have the genetics and winter range to support it. The oak creek range has everything you want and need to grow big deer. This unit has the potential to be the very best unit in all of utah. It was the best unit from 2015-2021. I hope the board decides to make it premium and reward those who have put in for 2.5 decades with the chance to chase a world class mule deer at least once in their life.
The Fillmore pahvant unit (elk) used to be the best in the state and now is straight garbage! How did that plan work to give more people opportunity? More opportunity comes at a cost. Quality suffers tremendously. I am for opportunity but I also think there needs to be a balance and not have it be all about opportunity.
Click to expand...
Could agree more if I tried.
 
Make it a premium LE unit so the only people that ever get to hunt it are those that buy the tag at auction?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? That old riddle reminds me of this discussion.

Maybe ban guiding on Oak Creek and see if that increases a few of the bigger bucks making it through to next year. It’s an option!
 
Vanilla said:
Make it a premium LE unit so the only people that ever get to hunt it are those that buy the tag at auction?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? That old riddle reminds me of this discussion.

Maybe ban guiding on Oak Creek and see if that increases a few of the bigger bucks making it through to next year. It’s an option!
Click to expand...
How would making it a premium unit only allow auction tag holders the chance to hunt it? Would all the draw tags disappear?

I don’t agree with banning and taking away someone’s livelihood or taking away the opportunity for someone who buys or draws a tag to get the help they need to achieve their goal of killing a trophy class mule deer.

Making it a premium unit cuts tags. There will still be opportunity. A premium opportunity at that!
 
Letshunt said:
How would making it a premium unit only allow auction tag holders the chance to hunt it?
Click to expand...

Letshunt said:
Making it a premium unit cuts tags.
Click to expand...

bingo

But you know who won't get their tag numbers cut? Expo and conservation tags! Landowners. Hence, why you want it cut down so barely anybody ever gets to hunt it again, but we won't cause the outfitters to suffer because of that. Just the people that own the unit and the animals being hunted.
 
801local said:
I can vouch for this post. I have a tag and I've put in 20+ days scouting, tons of miles, glassing, and 3 days hunting. This has been the toughest hunt I've ever been on, hands down. I spoke with the DWR officer that manages this unit before the hunt and he told me that the fawn survival rate was very low 4-6 years ago due to the drought. Yes, there are deer here, but from everything that I've learned, the number of older bucks are down this year and they are extremely hard to find. The guides do a great job and have helped the archery hunters to clean house this year, a few on the muzzleloader hunt, and guides have helped a handful of rifle hunters harvest great bucks. I've spoken to several hardcore, dedicated DIY hunters that have had a very hard time turning up a giant buck, myself included. I know of a muzzleloader tag that was turned in one week before the hunt because the guy knew it was a bad year and didn't want to burn the points. I have spoken to others that did not fill an archery or muzzleloader tag this year. I have seen several small bucks, so I'm thinking this unit will be better 3-4 years from now, but it's hard to say. As of right now, I'm worried that I will not fill my tag. It's honestly hard to recommend this unit to anyone, even though there are deer here.
Click to expand...
I hope you had success!
 
Letshunt said:
We can disagree and that’s ok. I think there should be more premium units in Utah that actually produce high end mule deer. Very few units have the genetics and winter range to support it. The oak creek range has everything you want and need to grow big deer. This unit has the potential to be the very best unit in all of utah. It was the best unit from 2015-2021. I hope the board decides to make it premium and reward those who have put in for 2.5 decades with the chance to chase a world class mule deer at least once in their life.
The Fillmore pahvant unit (elk) used to be the best in the state and now is straight garbage! How did that plan work to give more people opportunity? More opportunity comes at a cost. Quality suffers tremendously. I am for opportunity but I also think there needs to be a balance and not have it be all about opportunity.
Click to expand...
People have been saying that about the heneries the last few years and how bad it's gone down hill. Basically garbage. Being a premium unit doesn't seem to be helping much. The same could happen with the oak creeks. Maybe the problem isn't just a few extra public tags.
 
The problem with the henries was all the management tags being given. Deer couldn't reach their full potential that is one of the reasons it went down hill. The management tags are gone now, lets see what happens in the next 4 to 5 years with those gone. It will be premier unit once again. I don't think management tags work at all. Big framed 3pts tend get lots of extra pts after the age of 5. Look at the OX buck on the oak creek. It was a big framed 3 pt and then when he got some age on him he exploded into a monster buck.
 
Downrange said:
The problem with the henries was all the management tags being given. Deer couldn't reach their full potential that is one of the reasons it went down hill. The management tags are gone now, lets see what happens in the next 4 to 5 years with those gone. It will be premier unit once again. I don't think management tags work at all. Big framed 3pts tend get lots of extra pts after the age of 5. Look at the OX buck on the oak creek. It was a big framed 3 pt and then when he got some age on him he exploded into a monster buck.
Click to expand...

OX buck? Pics?
 
Downrange said:
Big framed 3pts tend get lots of extra pts after the age of 5. Look at the OX buck on the oak creek. It was a big framed 3 pt and then when he got some age on him he exploded into a monster buck.
Click to expand...
What if someone shoots an XL 3 point on a management hunt and they feel it is a great trophy for them?
Can't the same be said for many of the world class type bucks- if he had one more year. All of the 200" bucks that get killed, what if one or two of them would have become 280" if allowed to grow another year or two or three? Is a 200" 4 year old a trophy still- even if he might have broken 260" at 6 yo? Who gets to decide the trophy status?

So that 5 year old, 175" 3 point shouldn't be killed because he might become a 220" non-typical? How many 4-5 year old 3 points turn into 220"+ nontypicals? I would guess the answer is not many. So we sacrifice hunting a 100 non-desirable bucks in hopes one or 3 might become something special? Who does that benefit?

I've spent time on the OC this year (my son has a sheep tag in his pocket if anyone wants to share where a 8+ yo ram is haha). I helped a friend on his deer hunt and then looking a little at sheep. It is a down year for inches. Still a lot of 5+ yo type bucks. Poor fawn production from 4-6 years ago did impact it, but that will change judging by the number of yearlings, 2yo, and fawns we see. And the hard winter definitely shaved some inches off bucks. If we get an easier winter this year we will see more of the 4 yo 200" bucks shot next year, everyone can congratulate those hunters, and some will think "he would have been a giant in 2 more years".....
 
Letshunt said:
We can disagree and that’s ok. I think there should be more premium units in Utah that actually produce high end mule deer. Very few units have the genetics and winter range to support it. The oak creek range has everything you want and need to grow big deer. This unit has the potential to be the very best unit in all of utah. It was the best unit from 2015-2021. I hope the board decides to make it premium and reward those who have put in for 2.5 decades with the chance to chase a world class mule deer at least once in their life.
The Fillmore pahvant unit (elk) used to be the best in the state and now is straight garbage! How did that plan work to give more people opportunity? More opportunity comes at a cost. Quality suffers tremendously. I am for opportunity but I also think there needs to be a balance and not have it be all about opportunity.
Click to expand...
Yes and and the pavhant (elk) is a premium LE. The quality has gone down for deer and elk statewide. It’s not going to get better with the dwr management plans. The premium LE units have all gone down hill, no matter deer or elk. And dramatically I would say. The dwr is not willing to sacrifice a cut in revenue to increase quality. They have made it clear that opportunity trumps quality. Is what it is. Squawk all we want. When has what the people want ever made the government stop doing what they already have planned? Yes it sucks to watch the decline. The only thing that matters is the revenue. And I guarantee it’s not going to change.
 
Vanilla said:
Make it a premium LE unit so the only people that ever get to hunt it are those that buy the tag at auction?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? That old riddle reminds me of this discussion.

Maybe ban guiding on Oak Creek and see if that increases a few of the bigger bucks making it through to next year. It’s an option!
Click to expand...
maybe ban guides all to gether. I’m all for it. But it’s not going to happen. Money is the one thing that dwr is not going to sacrifice. And let’s face it, the outfitters bring an awful lot of it to the state. If people are willing to pay $60000 + for a tag, $$20-30000 more for a guide is nothing. Money talks. Sucks for the average person. Greed has been the downfall of humanity. They absolutely are not going to cut tags or stop outfitting.
 
Giddyup said:
Yes and and the pavhant (elk) is a premium LE. The quality has gone down for deer and elk statewide. It’s not going to get better with the dwr management plans. The premium LE units have all gone down hill, no matter deer or elk. And dramatically I would say. The dwr is not willing to sacrifice a cut in revenue to increase quality. They have made it clear that opportunity trumps quality. Is what it is. Squawk all we want. When has what the people want ever made the government stop doing what they already have planned? Yes it sucks to watch the decline. The only thing that matters is the revenue. And I guarantee it’s not going to change.
Click to expand...
You do realize they have cut almost 25,000 general deer tags in the last 4 years alone? Kinda Flys in the face of your money means all narrative.
 
JakeH said:
You do realize they have cut almost 25,000 general deer tags in the last 4 years alone? Kinda Flys in the face of your money means all narrative.
Click to expand...

It’s what makes me laugh when people talk about it’s only “all about money and greed” and also “we need to cut some tags!”

Almost 29% of our general season deer tags have been cut in just the last 5 years alone. Nearly 1 in 3 deer tags gone in 5 years! Nearly 70% less tags than we had in the early 80s as well. But by golly, this next tag cut ought to do it. And they are all about money…

And making it premium LE and cutting more tags will save the herd.

Guys, don’t let facts get in the way of a good story now, though!
 
ridgetops said:
People have been saying that about the heneries the last few years and how bad it's gone down hill. Basically garbage. Being a premium unit doesn't seem to be helping much. The same could happen with the oak creeks. Maybe the problem isn't just a few extra public tags.
Click to expand...
And, the same guys now are pushing for "APR" 4 point or better units.
They say we "can't keep killing all the mature bucks on the Henry's and Oak Creeks" but they want a law that only allows us to kill the mature bucks on all the general units. ?‍♂️
 
notdonhunting said:
And, the same guys now are pushing for "APR" 4 point or better units.
They say we "can't keep killing all the mature bucks on the Henry's and Oak Creeks" but they want a law that only allows us to kill the mature bucks on all the general units. ?‍♂️
Click to expand...

They don't get the irony of their conflicting demands.
 
The DWR would have more money to build safe crossings, fences, habitat improvement if they sold more tags.
I say we sell 220,000 over the counter tags so we can all hunt every year with our families.
Re-establish our old family hunting camps and turn the Deer Hunt back in to a family reunion.
Would be Totally possible if we ALL gave up our modern killing platforms and went back to 60’s tech for all three seasons.
Can’t have it both ways.
 
801local said:
I can vouch for this post. I have a tag and I've put in 20+ days scouting, tons of miles, glassing, and 3 days hunting. This has been the toughest hunt I've ever been on, hands down. I spoke with the DWR officer that manages this unit before the hunt and he told me that the fawn survival rate was very low 4-6 years ago due to the drought. Yes, there are deer here, but from everything that I've learned, the number of older bucks are down this year and they are extremely hard to find. The guides do a great job and have helped the archery hunters to clean house this year, a few on the muzzleloader hunt, and guides have helped a handful of rifle hunters harvest great bucks. I've spoken to several hardcore, dedicated DIY hunters that have had a very hard time turning up a giant buck, myself included. I know of a muzzleloader tag that was turned in one week before the hunt because the guy knew it was a bad year and didn't want to burn the points. I have spoken to others that did not fill an archery or muzzleloader tag this year. I have seen several small bucks, so I'm thinking this unit will be better 3-4 years from now, but it's hard to say. As of right now, I'm worried that I will not fill my tag. It's honestly hard to recommend this unit to anyone, even though there are deer here.
Click to expand...
Did the guy know if you turn it back only a week before he doesn’t get his points back? (Must be 30 days prior) Ouch
 
Letshunt said:
In 2018 or 2019 there was a very poor fawn survival rate. Since 2018 the amount of tags given on the oak creeks has risen.
2017:
Archery: 6 tags
Muzzy: 6 tags
Rifle: 16 draw tags
Landowner 6 tags
Conservation tags: 1-2 tags

2022:
Archery: 8 tags
Muzzy: 8 tags
Rifle: 20 tags.
Landowner 6 tags
Conservation: 2-5 tags. (Possibly higher)
Not including the sportsman’s tag has killed in this unit and so has the governors tag.


The amount of deer is roughly the same. It’s the quality that is way down from where it was at during its peak. The amount of applicants has doubled and even tripled for some hunts.

Some people say it’s the late green up that is the problem which I believe is a factor. Others believe that it was the shape the deer were in after the harsh winter. Others say it is the fact that there is almost 0 five year old deer on the unit from the almost non existent fawn survival rate of 2018 for there being such poor quality this year.

The lack of fawn survival rate in 2018 is a huge factor for there not being many big deer this year but the tag increase has also hurt it pretty bad. Another huge reason is: The top end has been shot out. 6-8 year old deer are pretty much non existent. This years rifle hunt will be a massacre of so many 3-4 year old deer with amazing genetics. Many will fall in the 180-190” range. Which for the last 7 years those deer were never considered by almost every hunter who drew the tag. But they will be a trophy this year.

So with a missing an age class and the increase of tags and a ton of the younger bucks getting killed this week, the oak creeks will never touch what it used to be unless they change it from a regular LE unit and move it to a premium LE unit and lower the tags again to make it managed for more higher buck/does ratio. Every one who left the Henrie’s and pauns to come to the oaks might want to change course because the oak creeks is in bad shape for high end mule deer.

How often do you see a hunter buy a tag for 70k and then turn around and sell it for almost half of what he bought it for? That should tell you that all the mossback guides(that know the unit extremely well) haven’t found anything worth the amount he spent for it. And that’s the feeling of every other guide that I have talked to. They have never seen it this bad in the last 7+years. There is one legit buck and he’s on private property and a very hefty price was paid by an outfitter to hunt this one specific deer.
Click to expand...
I have spent a ton of time on that unit the past several years, Wanna hear the real problem? GUIDES, there is a large abundance of them on the OC and they are really good at what they do, for the past several years there has been several different outfitters taking 5+ bucks per year EACH. And like I said they are really good at what they do, taking the top bucks out year after year, you can’t do that over and over and not expect too see the big buck gene disappear. This year I have seen SO MANY giant framed 3 points, 2 points, and Crabby 4 points, which brings me to my next point, I disagree that 6-8 year old deer are non existent, I would say there’s plenty of them, but guess what they are, (Hint: Not high scoring) I don’t know how many bucks are on that unit, but I know the number is crazy high for the size of the unit, and you can’t tell me that killing 40 bucks per year is going to leave us with no 6 year old deer when most bucks don’t ever hit 190” in there entire life no matter what they eat or how old they get.
 
This Is For Niller:

The Second Or Maybe Sooner You Raised The Buck Count/Quality Of Bucks You'd Have People BAWLING Like Babies Wanting MORE Tags Issued So They Could SLAUGHTER Them!

They'd Need To Be Managed Properly!

NOT Managed To Death!
 
And I'll Agree With SanPitch!

Any Of You Think You Are BAD-ASS Hunters?

Yup!

There's Some Of You That Are!

Just Try Competing With What Happens Out There Or On Any Other LE Unit & You'll Get Yourself Schooled Real Quick!

And The Ones That'll School You Really Ain't Breaking Any Laws For The Most Part!

But If You Haven't Already Tried It,Go Ahead & Try It & See How It Pans Out For You!
 
I hate hunting. The gall of anyone that would want tags issued so people can hunt!

You’ve convinced Bessy. No more hunting. Anyone that wants to hunt is an idiot. We need to manage hunters a bit more and cut tags because that will work!

Yep, you’ve finally convinced me!
 
And What Are You Really Doing Niller?

You're BAWLING ALL-F'N-READY!


Vanilla said:
I hate hunting. The gall of anyone that would want tags issued so people can hunt!

You’ve convinced Bessy. No more hunting. Anyone that wants to hunt is an idiot. We need to manage hunters a bit more and cut tags because that will work!

Yep, you’ve finally convinced me!
Click to expand...
 
And One More Thing Niller!

You & Ridge would Wipe It out Quicker Than The DWR!

Now Wouldn't That Be Something To Be Proud Of?
 
Nope. You’ve convinced me. I’m anti-hunter now. No hunting allowed! Shoot ‘em with a camera only or it’s a $100,000 fine and 70 years in prison. No hunting.

Bessy will finally be happy!
 
You Look At It As Negatively!

But It's The Truth!

And The Truth hurts!

You Want to Hunt The OC Unit At Any Cost Ridge!

Even If It Meant Totally Destroying It Just As Long As You Got Your Piece Of The Pie!







ridgetops said:
Doesn't it get tiring being negative all the time? I know it does for those reading it!
Click to expand...
 

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