Ok, I have a Utah le elk tag, and have been shooting 209, for the last few years. Found out it is indeed illegal, and not going to risk it. So my question is what is everybodys thought on other powders. Have been looking at the white hot pellets or the ttt 7 pellets. Might try loose powder but heard the the lat 1/3 of the bottle shoots different from the top 2/3 from the smaller particles of powder falling to the bottom. Any thoughts from you pros out there.
Other powder options
- Thread starter hangfire
- Start date
txhunter58
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I have never really had any issues with the bottom of the bottle. I do think it is important to seal the bottle so that moisture doesn't get in and I generally buy a new bottle each year for hunting (use up the old one for plinking)
I highly recommend loose. Cheaper and can customize your dose. 777 or pyrodex RS or select would both be good choices.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
I highly recommend loose. Cheaper and can customize your dose. 777 or pyrodex RS or select would both be good choices.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
AndymanSavage
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Shoot the 209... I have been told it's legal for years by the dwr and just because some officer is telling people it's not we are supposed to take that as law? They need to make it official in the regulations and that wont happen this year
We can argue semantics all day, but in the past it has not been considered a smokless powder here.
I will be shooting it and don't care what any field officer says, a citation would not hold up.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
We can argue semantics all day, but in the past it has not been considered a smokless powder here.
I will be shooting it and don't care what any field officer says, a citation would not hold up.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
utahbigbull
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Andy, that is my opinion ont it.
The proc states you can not use a "nirtrocellulose-based SMOKELESS powder" and no matter what base 209 is derived from, it is NOT a smokeless powder. Might be one, but not the other and untill it specificly states a nitro based powder no matter smoke or smokeless then we will change it up.
Write me the ticket and we will see how it stands in court when contested.
The proc states you can not use a "nirtrocellulose-based SMOKELESS powder" and no matter what base 209 is derived from, it is NOT a smokeless powder. Might be one, but not the other and untill it specificly states a nitro based powder no matter smoke or smokeless then we will change it up.
Write me the ticket and we will see how it stands in court when contested.
txhunter58
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LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-11 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]
DUH! Somehow I missed that you were talking about Utah! I have an email from Utah that says BH 209 IS legal. Here is a copy of my email to him and his response specifically about BH 209 dated April 2010:
Me:
NO ONE WILL TELL US WHAT IS IN BLACKHORN 209. I do
not know if it contains nitrocellulose or not and the company will not tell
us (I have asked them).
So, who do I ask to find out if it has nitrocellulose and therefore whether
or not it is legal?
David,
I was asked by the front desk to check into this and respond to you. I have contacted the company and looked at the literature and this powder meets the legal specifications in Utah. Please feel free to use it for hunting big game. Contact me directly if you have further questions or concerns.
Mike Fowlks
Chief of Law Enforcement
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
1594 W. North Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84114
[email protected]
work-801-538-4884
I would say a letter from the Chief of Law Enforcement trumps what any local officer says.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
DUH! Somehow I missed that you were talking about Utah! I have an email from Utah that says BH 209 IS legal. Here is a copy of my email to him and his response specifically about BH 209 dated April 2010:
Me:
NO ONE WILL TELL US WHAT IS IN BLACKHORN 209. I do
not know if it contains nitrocellulose or not and the company will not tell
us (I have asked them).
So, who do I ask to find out if it has nitrocellulose and therefore whether
or not it is legal?
David,
I was asked by the front desk to check into this and respond to you. I have contacted the company and looked at the literature and this powder meets the legal specifications in Utah. Please feel free to use it for hunting big game. Contact me directly if you have further questions or concerns.
Mike Fowlks
Chief of Law Enforcement
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
1594 W. North Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84114
[email protected]
work-801-538-4884
I would say a letter from the Chief of Law Enforcement trumps what any local officer says.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
C
chillymac
Guest
Dump your BH209 in a pyrodex bottle, no one will ever know.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
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Have you ever used BH 209? As an extruded powder, it is very easy to tell from any other black powder substitute.
But why do that when it is legal?
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
But why do that when it is legal?
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
utahbigbull
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txhunter,
It was in the spring of 2010 when I had asked as well. At that time, they had told me it was legal.
Yesterday 7-28-2011 I talked to who I believe was the same "Mike" at the Salt Lake DWR law enforcment division and got a totaly different awnser from 2010 and that it is now illegal. I was told that they were not concerned about hunters that had used it in the past and I think they are not too concerned about enforcing it to date. I really think that back in 2010 they were not fully aware about the product but now it has become so popular that they are playing it safe untill they make an "officail" standpoint after thier RAC meetings.
It was in the spring of 2010 when I had asked as well. At that time, they had told me it was legal.
Yesterday 7-28-2011 I talked to who I believe was the same "Mike" at the Salt Lake DWR law enforcment division and got a totaly different awnser from 2010 and that it is now illegal. I was told that they were not concerned about hunters that had used it in the past and I think they are not too concerned about enforcing it to date. I really think that back in 2010 they were not fully aware about the product but now it has become so popular that they are playing it safe untill they make an "officail" standpoint after thier RAC meetings.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
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>txhunter,
>It was in the spring of
>2010 when I had asked
>as well. At that time,
>they had told me it
>was legal.
>
>Yesterday 7-28-2011 I talked to who
>I believe was the same
>"Mike" at the Salt Lake
>DWR law enforcment division and
>got a totaly different awnser
>from 2010 and that it
>is now illegal. I was
>told that they were not
>concerned about hunters that had
>used it in the past
>and I think they are
>not too concerned about enforcing
>it to date. I really
>think that back in 2010
>they were not fully aware
>about the product but now
>it has become so popular
>that they are playing it
>safe untill they make an
>"officail" standpoint after thier RAC
>meetings.
I emailed Mike as well to see what he says now.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
>It was in the spring of
>2010 when I had asked
>as well. At that time,
>they had told me it
>was legal.
>
>Yesterday 7-28-2011 I talked to who
>I believe was the same
>"Mike" at the Salt Lake
>DWR law enforcment division and
>got a totaly different awnser
>from 2010 and that it
>is now illegal. I was
>told that they were not
>concerned about hunters that had
>used it in the past
>and I think they are
>not too concerned about enforcing
>it to date. I really
>think that back in 2010
>they were not fully aware
>about the product but now
>it has become so popular
>that they are playing it
>safe untill they make an
>"officail" standpoint after thier RAC
>meetings.
I emailed Mike as well to see what he says now.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Thanks for the comments guys sounds like you could get away with shooting it till they clear it up in the proclamation. I also sent mike a email, in the email I stated how the rules on it was not clear. Also will send a email to blackthorn and here there thoughts on it and what the Utah rules state. For now I will plan on using it for my elk hunt.
AndymanSavage
Very Active Member
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Bottom line, since the powder came out they have been telling everyone who asked that it was legal. In order to reverse their stance now they need an official policy on bh209 in writing in the regulations. El matador has started five threads on different forms declaring the end of legal bh209 use in Utah due to a letter from one officer. Thats not how things work. Ambiguity in law always leaves the burden with those who wrote it. The rule is vague enough on it's own, but to have written permission from the head of dwr law enforcement really seals it. An email wont change anything, they have taken an official stance over a year ago.
Use it.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
Use it.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
El_Matador
Active Member
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Hey Andy, is there a limit to how many people should be aware of the recent developments regarding the use of BH209? I did research, I contacted law enforcement, and I found out the truth. Now I'm being insulted for passing this information on? Nevada is sending out flyers to everyone they can to pass along the news. Maybe you should send them an insulting letter declaring how redundant it is to mail out thousands of flyers. AND to post it online! If you are so determined to use an illegal propellant then go ahead and do it! You can choose to break any law you wish. The law has not changed since BH209 came out, smokeless powder has been illegal on the muzzleloader hunt for quite a while. Now that everyone knows it is smokeless powder we are seeing it specifically prohibited.
utahbigbull
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Sounds good txhunter. Will be interexsting to see the officail recent stance on the subject IN THIER WRITING. Let us know.
AndymanSavage
Very Active Member
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Matador, calmate vos.
1- I am not insulting you, we just disagree.
2- I really, really don't care about Nevada.
3- I will shoot the stuff until they officially say otherwise. They need to be crystal clear on this powder because they have officially been calling it legal for years. And no amount of personal emails make it true. Hell, when they ban it I'll help you spread the word.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
1- I am not insulting you, we just disagree.
2- I really, really don't care about Nevada.
3- I will shoot the stuff until they officially say otherwise. They need to be crystal clear on this powder because they have officially been calling it legal for years. And no amount of personal emails make it true. Hell, when they ban it I'll help you spread the word.
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
txhunter58
Long Time Member
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Ok, so here is my reply from the Chief of law enforcement. Bottom line is I would not hesitate to use it this year in Utah. They could not convict you. Here is his reply for clarification:
David,
I was provided a clearer picture of the chemical components in Blackhorn 209 by an independent source that showed it does contain nitro-cellulose. This would technically make it illegal. I have, however, instructed my officers not to issue citations this season until we can conduct research and clarify its legality. I have pasted the text of that email below. Sorry for any confusion. Good luck this fall.
Hi All,
The question has been raised as to the legality of a new black powder substitute called Blackhorn 209. It is not a smokeless powder but it does contain nitro-cellulose based powder. Most hunters are not going to know that it contains nitro-cellulose and will probably be using it as it burns cleaner and the muzzleloader doesn't need to be cleaned as much.
We plan on researching this powder this fall to see if it provides an undue advantage over black powder or other substitute products and will make a recommendation to the RACs and Board for next season to clarify the language in rule. With that being said, I would request that you not issue citations to anyone using Blackhorn 209 this fall until we can sort this out.
Thanks for your consideration on this and thanks for all your dedicated service to the division.
Take care,
Mike
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
David,
I was provided a clearer picture of the chemical components in Blackhorn 209 by an independent source that showed it does contain nitro-cellulose. This would technically make it illegal. I have, however, instructed my officers not to issue citations this season until we can conduct research and clarify its legality. I have pasted the text of that email below. Sorry for any confusion. Good luck this fall.
Hi All,
The question has been raised as to the legality of a new black powder substitute called Blackhorn 209. It is not a smokeless powder but it does contain nitro-cellulose based powder. Most hunters are not going to know that it contains nitro-cellulose and will probably be using it as it burns cleaner and the muzzleloader doesn't need to be cleaned as much.
We plan on researching this powder this fall to see if it provides an undue advantage over black powder or other substitute products and will make a recommendation to the RACs and Board for next season to clarify the language in rule. With that being said, I would request that you not issue citations to anyone using Blackhorn 209 this fall until we can sort this out.
Thanks for your consideration on this and thanks for all your dedicated service to the division.
Take care,
Mike
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
utahbigbull
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TX, thanks. That pretty well sums it up better than I could put down from memory of what he told me. I guess although true, not all powders are smoke free as some stated the obvious, but makes me feel better saying it was not a SMOKELESS powder and the DWR does too.
Hangfire, you use it and punch a big ol' hole in your big stinkie bud. I am getting excited for ya!
Hangfire, you use it and punch a big ol' hole in your big stinkie bud. I am getting excited for ya!
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-11 AT 07:23PM (MST)[p]Just received a email from Don with blackthorn and they plan on a petition against Utah and Nevada, they say blackthorn is nothing more than a black powder substitute. Which I agree with, the biggest advantage bh has the ability to load multiple shots without cleaning. As far as velocities go don't see a huge advantage there. Anyone have any comments if bh is a unfair advantage over other powders?
Big bull can't wait it will be a good time thanks for your help.
Big bull can't wait it will be a good time thanks for your help.
FrontierGander
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new mexico banned it at the beginning of this year after they got poor info from an independent researcher. They have since restored blackhorn209 as a legal powder to use. No real big gain in using it other than being able to reload your second + shot without having to swab the barrel.
www.FrontierMuzzleloadin.powerguild.net
www.FrontierMuzzleloadin.powerguild.net
