Correct me if I’m wrong. If you go in as a party of 2 with one person having 20 points and the other having 10 your average is 15. You draw the tag with the person having 20 points buying point guard and has never used it before. The person with 20 points can turn back in the tag for the cost of that tag and get their points reinstated by using their point guard option. The person with 10 points can then still hunt that unit that they had drawn. Is this correct or did they close this loophole? Thanks
Point Guard Question
- Thread starter Buzzy
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yotebuster17
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You are correct. That needs to be changed but it is what it is for now.
AZGuy
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It’s a loophole and can be monetized. It needs to be changed ASAP. I’ve written letter after letter and got bullshit talk offs from the AZGFD.
There is a better way to do business.
huntandfish
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I hate when information like this gets posted on the Internet for everybody to see and learn how to milk the system. I hope they do what Nevada did, and change it, but Arizona’s all about the Benjamins so I don’t see them doing that any time soon.
It's just the AZ version of the old Nevada trick - POINT RIDE & RETURN!
It is expensive to do for an NR, but can still make sense for NRs. It's a no-brainer for residents.
Can only do it once per species (kinda). As can only invoke Pointguard and return a tag one time in a row - second tag for that species has to be kept.
AZ had decades to see this happen in NV before NV closed the loophole in about 2020. But AZ designed Pointguard this way anyway. Not sure if they were really that naive or if they just want the pointguard dollars bad enough that they will put up this this.
AZGFD is pretty unsophisticated, so I doubt they saw it coming. I also doubt they will understand it until about the 10th time it is explained to them. And I doubt they will fix it even after they understand it.
We better just let them concentrate on drawing numbers out of a hat without screwing it up again.
It is expensive to do for an NR, but can still make sense for NRs. It's a no-brainer for residents.
Can only do it once per species (kinda). As can only invoke Pointguard and return a tag one time in a row - second tag for that species has to be kept.
AZ had decades to see this happen in NV before NV closed the loophole in about 2020. But AZ designed Pointguard this way anyway. Not sure if they were really that naive or if they just want the pointguard dollars bad enough that they will put up this this.
AZGFD is pretty unsophisticated, so I doubt they saw it coming. I also doubt they will understand it until about the 10th time it is explained to them. And I doubt they will fix it even after they understand it.
We better just let them concentrate on drawing numbers out of a hat without screwing it up again.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
If we don't talk about it openly:
1. AZ Gfd will never fix it
2. Only the clients of the hunt application services will be doing it, and the common man will remain ignorant
It's been talked about on here and multiple other forums since the day it was implemented. Anybody hunting AZ that's on a forum should have seen it discussed multiple times.
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Joe2Kool
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If I understand correctly, using the OP's example, the 20 point holder has to use the tag the second time the group is drawn.
That at least closes the indefinite loophole that allows the 20 point holder to continue drawing and sharing
Horniac
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Your first choice is considered but you may not have enough points for a bonus tag with choice #1. They then look at your 2nd choice in the bonus round where you do have enough points for that bonus tag and you are awarded choice #2.
So your choice #1 is looked at but not in the random pass if you draw a tag in the bonus pass with your 2nd choice. Is that what you are talking about?
If so, that’s not a ”quirk” per se just the way the draw is designed and executed…
Horniac
The first/bonus pass runs on choices 1 and 2. Before your choice 1 would have a shot at a random tag in the second/random pass. You could leave choice 2 blank.
But AZ GFD could probably sell you a package so that choice 1 gets random treatment before choice 2 gets bonus treatment. How does $395 for 3 draw cycles sound?
The software might never run again if the AZ GFD developers were to open up the code again for a change like that.
But AZ GFD could probably sell you a package so that choice 1 gets random treatment before choice 2 gets bonus treatment. How does $395 for 3 draw cycles sound?
The software might never run again if the AZ GFD developers were to open up the code again for a change like that.
creed
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For lack of a better word I used quirk. Yes, it’s where your second choice would have enough to put you in a bonus round but your first did not. I learned that the hard way.
creed
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And they won't. It's one of those things about the AZ draw that many don't think about when they apply.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread.
longranger
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Some of you are acting as if AZGFD didn't mean design it just like it is. They get thousands of extra dollars a year from returned tags. The very minute percentage of people that do it doesn't affect anything. I'd also venture to guess those that are complaining just don't have friends or family with high points that they could put in with to take advantage.
Bullchit. Those of us complaining don’t like fraud. And the exploitation of wild animals for state gov profit. Plain and simple.
longranger
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Sorry took me some time to respond, just got done applying with my mom who has 23 elk points so I can turn it back in and do it again next year. I also did a search to see where you complained about the governors tags, raffle tags, new limited entry tags and way too many tags in nearly every unit but I must have missed it since you certainly must have complained about that exploitation for profit.
longranger
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Gotcha, so it would feel better if game and fish came out and said they are doing it for extra money? For some reason I don't believe you.
Yes. I value honesty.
Chapped? Maybe. Surprised? Absolutely not. I apply in most every Western state. AZ’s online application process and the associated tech interface to do so is the absolute worst. Hands down. It’s embarrassingly bad. Their tech people should be fired.
Such an easy solution. But then they would have to pay a few dollars instead of hoarding it all themselves. They know their chitty system won’t stop one single one of us suckers from applying anyway, so they ain’t paying a penny more.
Kalkomey has it down. No need to reinvent the wheel.
AZBuckSnort
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The Dept is well aware of Kalkomey as our Hunter Education Events are all managed by Kalkomey Event Manager software.
AZBuckSnort
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WapitiBob is accurate, the workings of PointGuard were developed and known to all involved, not a loophole. It was built by design to allow a surrender of the tag one time without loosing bonus points by the applicant, whether as an individual or part of a group application. Who applicants apply with isn’t a concern to the Dept or the computer program.
The biggest complaints seem to come from applicants who view the process as some sort of a “line” with a certain spot held in that “line” and feel someone cut in ahead of them. AZ is not a preference point system, it is a bonus point system with a random draw. it is based on the luck of a random draw incentivized by securing extra randomly issued placement numbers in the form of bonus points to secure the lowest number possible to affix to the application. The luck component are the actual numbers the computer randomly generates based on your bonus points and your current application. If you have 20 BPs and the computer generates 21 numbers for your app that fall into the
100’s of thousands and the lowest number was 103,247, you had bad luck and you’re not going to draw. Another applicant who just took up hunting, completes an AZ Hunter Education Course and secures the Education BP submits their app and has two random numbers generated and one of those numbers is a low number, let’s for example say it’s 57, bingo, the applicant is likely going elk hunting somewhere in AZ. It amazes me that those who are at near max points and don’t have the Education Point, what is holding then back from securing that extra point?
The random generation of numbers takes place 3 times, once for each phase of the draw, so every application has an opportunity to get lucky and pull a magic low number. Most applicants looking for bull tags don’t put selections in the 3-5 positions on their app for bull elk hunts as bull tags have historically all been issued in the BP Pass and the 1-2 Random Pass and all that’s left are antlerless hunts with the possibility of isolated LO bull hunts and Hopi hunts. Bonus Points do work but you still need some luck mixed into the process to get the bull tag you dream about.
Good luck to all who applied and happy hunting to those who draw.
The biggest complaints seem to come from applicants who view the process as some sort of a “line” with a certain spot held in that “line” and feel someone cut in ahead of them. AZ is not a preference point system, it is a bonus point system with a random draw. it is based on the luck of a random draw incentivized by securing extra randomly issued placement numbers in the form of bonus points to secure the lowest number possible to affix to the application. The luck component are the actual numbers the computer randomly generates based on your bonus points and your current application. If you have 20 BPs and the computer generates 21 numbers for your app that fall into the
100’s of thousands and the lowest number was 103,247, you had bad luck and you’re not going to draw. Another applicant who just took up hunting, completes an AZ Hunter Education Course and secures the Education BP submits their app and has two random numbers generated and one of those numbers is a low number, let’s for example say it’s 57, bingo, the applicant is likely going elk hunting somewhere in AZ. It amazes me that those who are at near max points and don’t have the Education Point, what is holding then back from securing that extra point?
The random generation of numbers takes place 3 times, once for each phase of the draw, so every application has an opportunity to get lucky and pull a magic low number. Most applicants looking for bull tags don’t put selections in the 3-5 positions on their app for bull elk hunts as bull tags have historically all been issued in the BP Pass and the 1-2 Random Pass and all that’s left are antlerless hunts with the possibility of isolated LO bull hunts and Hopi hunts. Bonus Points do work but you still need some luck mixed into the process to get the bull tag you dream about.
Good luck to all who applied and happy hunting to those who draw.
Except the 20% tags allocated to the first “bonus point” pass are awarded to those with the highest bonus points. Which effectively makes that part of the draw function similar to preference points. So it’s justified when people with high point levels feel like point creep is pushing them out of their spot in line.
I have no doubt he knew how HE would use it. His intentions could have been honest and innocent.
I’m just doubting he was foreseeing how others would use (abuse) it. Letting a guy snag a tag for a party friend using his points, then getting 100% of his points back even tho those points were "used".
AZ GFD looks foolish now (in addition to money hungry). I’m sure that there are folks inside that are pretending they were on top of this the whole time.
Kalkomey is outrageously expensive. And their products have had trouble too.
AZGFD doesn’t need Kalkomey, they just need to make 1 strong hire (good software coder) and pay the wage to make that happen. I have a guy that works PT for me doing some coding and he produces more & better work in 100 billable hours than anything that has come out of AZ GFD in the past 10 years.
Nevada was forced by their AG to go to Kalkomey because NDOW was caught self-dealing tags to friends & family. With proper auditing, a game agency should be able to handle simple applications & draws with government coders.
longranger
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I'd be willing to bet if azgfd draw was ever audited they would find similar shenanigans of certain people getting tags. But for some reason there is no oversight and they continue to provide the worst set up draw in the west.
longranger
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NR? Resident? What unit you going for? Are you saying you would pay for a guide for whoever helped you draw?
longranger
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I see. Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. Would need to apply with someone with 30 points. Even if applying with a resident you still fall into NR pool. Last year took 23 points to guarantee a tag and there is currently one NR with 33 and one with 29. And one resident with 29.
sagebrush
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It's not fraud if its part of the design of the system and done legally. It may suck, but its not fraud. G&F looking to get 2 fares off the same ticket.
PG sucks for the line-cutting and point creep it causes.
But it is great for the high point guys that are able to sell/trade their one PG return! (per species) It didn't work out (above) but someone could've received a guided hunt in return for a PG return (a 15 point PG transfer for a guided deer hunt).
An AZ resident can spend $10 on PG and sacrifice $48/$158 tag price and literally create points out of thin air and SELL THEM!
It's great to see AZ GFD creating new games and opportunities for folks.
But it is great for the high point guys that are able to sell/trade their one PG return! (per species) It didn't work out (above) but someone could've received a guided hunt in return for a PG return (a 15 point PG transfer for a guided deer hunt).
An AZ resident can spend $10 on PG and sacrifice $48/$158 tag price and literally create points out of thin air and SELL THEM!
It's great to see AZ GFD creating new games and opportunities for folks.
Joe2Kool
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