Preference Points in Idaho

Pooner

Active Member
Messages
312
Just curious what your guys feelings on preference points in Idaho are. I personally wish we had them. Mostly because I just checked and didn't draw. I have been trying to draw antelope for 10 years now. And really the fish and game could charge non-residents extra money for preference points like other states and make some extra bucks.
 
Random draw every year...what could be more fair?
I'll take the chance to draw every year, over a system that might allow me to hunt my favorite spot once in the rest of my life.
 
Just found out that my 2 Uncles and cousin drew for the 3rd time in an area I have not drawn in 9 strait years. And my brother in-law put in this year with 2 guys who have never put in for the draw and guess what, they drew the same area. So yeah a random draw every year does not sound that fair to me either!
 
see my post! you know what I would vote for. you know 13 years ago I got a lifetime hunting license as a gift from my wife and I have not drawn by my self any thing since! This year our deer, I put in with my son. The last deer was with a friend, the deer before that with a friend, pronghorn-with a friend. maybe they dont like those numbers???
 
It seems like the perfect solution. What you don't realize is that your odds will go down drastically if you go to a preference system. Look at WA for example. Our odds on a 1st time moose applicant are around 1:1,000,000. With a preference system you better hope you are in from the start and accrue points for 20+ years. Also, you alienate your new and younger hunters. They will never draw these tags. Be careful what you wish for. Us preference guys in WA wish we had a system like Idaho...
 
The point system is great for limited area's that you can draw every few years, but for the best areas it makes it a once in a life time draw if you get in the draw from the start. Pros and cons. I have a chance every year as it is, but if i go's to a prefrence point I will be in from the start and hope for one good draw in twenty years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-09 AT 04:05PM (MST)[p]Maybe trying for the most probable unit for drawing would get you a tag. Never drawn in over twenty years for elk/antelope . Until this year on Lope. But two premium tags in those same 20 years for deer one as a nonresident. However I put in for the Hardest tags to draw. I know what to expect every year. So I play the points game in Other states where My "bonus"/Preference Points" Have gotten me 3 Wyoming deer tags in almost 18 years and skunked on other states.. But once again I understand what my odd's are and accept it.


There are left over either sex tags, and some antlered tags that are undersubscribed every year.
 
I drew this year, but had a dry spell for a few (3) years. You want to cry just look at the guys with 17 points in Utah and crying because they did not draw.


Points do not guarantee you a tag.

How do you spell Madoff, I mean pyramid scheme, I mean point system. $$$$$$$$$$


I like Idaho's system the way it is, if I don't draw this time maybe I will next time.


Boy am I subtle. Hope you can figure how I feel about points.
 
"It seems like the perfect solution. What you don't realize is that your odds will go down drastically if you go to a preference system. Look at WA for example. Our odds on a 1st time moose applicant are around 1:1,000,000. With a preference system you better hope you are in from the start and accrue points for 20+ years. Also, you alienate your new and younger hunters. They will never draw these tags. Be careful what you wish for. Us preference guys in WA wish we had a system like Idaho... "

PopeShawnPaul said it almost perfectly. "Be careful what you wish for."

You think the odds are bad now, just imagine how many more people would be applying if they knew they would get at least a point out of the deal. This would make your odds of NOT drawing skyrocket. Those that have been applying to hunt a specific hunt for 20+ years, etc. I hope you eventually get to. I just hope they don't put a point system in place and allow me the opportunity to "maybe" hunt it once in my life as well and virtually gauranteeing that it would be my only time.

I like knowing that every year I have as good of a chance at drawing whatever tag I put in for as the next guy does.
 
What about making deer/elk/antelope more like the trophy species. You can only apply for one species, ya it would suck only being allowed to put in for one tag as opposed to three, but the draw odds would increase substantially.

I don't like point systems, but I would accept one under a single species application system such as this...it would force people to pick an animal they most want to target and stick with it, and most likely they'd see a tag in a few years.
 
I'm on a six year dry spell but I still would not want a preference point system. I've heard all the horror stories. Bonus point system might be better but I still think the random draw is the best and the fairest.
 
There are some great points you guys have made. And some points I had not though of, but regardless of all our opinions. I bet Idaho eventually goes to a point system. For them its increased revenue with the same amount of tags sold.
 
Preference points simply make hunting into more of a richman's sport....the guy who can afford to "buy" the points every year until he has an ongoing (one state or another) opportunity every year. It effectively reduces the odds for the average guy SUBSTANTIALLY.

NOT A GOOD IDEA!


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
You think you've had bad luck drawing tags? Listen to this.

I've put in for a unit that has 75 tags. In 2007, 91 people put in.. I didn't draw.

In 2008 with again 75 tags, 90 people put in. I didn't draw again.

In 2009 with 75 tags again, 86 people put in. I DIDNT DRAW AGAIN!

How do you like those odds. Give me a point system.
 
Sounds like the muzzy antilope hunt I put in for. No draw! Going on 7 years now. How is that possible! If I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck. Bring on the points. Then atleast I should draw it every other year!

Steve
www.muledeercountry.com
 
you all know how i feel about a point system keep them out of idaho because as soon as we get them we can kiss our good draw odds goodbye
 
Why not have a waiting period,
if a guy is drawing a tag every
couple of years, to me that is not
fair when someone has not drawn a
tag in 20 years.
I don't always put in for the top
hunts, the last few years I have
tryed to pull tags in easier units
but to no avail!
Something needs to be done in my opinion.

Someone brought up the 17 year wait in utah,
same thing there if they are not getting drawn
they must be putting in for the top 2 or 3
units, they will draw a tag and when they do
it will be worth the wait.
I waited 13 years in Utah for an elk tag, I
had to go with a muzzy elk tag to increase my
odds, Something need to change in Idaho because
no matter what they do people are going to
give up after awhile with nothing to
show for there loyalty of applying, that is were
the point system comes in.
"just my 2 cents"
 
"Someone brought up the 17 year wait in utah,
same thing there if they are not getting drawn
they must be putting in for the top 2 or 3
units, they will draw a tag and when they do
it will be worth the wait."

HNTBIGBULLS - the easiest muzzleloader deer tag in Utah had 14% odds for those with 5 points; and if you were to start now you would be behind over 100 people with more points than you competing for 13 tags. It will statistically take you 8 years to draw that tag. That is the EASIEST firearm deer tag in Utah to draw, and probably the lowest quality.

Grizzly

Point systems aren't worth it. Idaho has it right.
 
I should have said it was an elk tag,
I was one off of max points so I figured
I would get in.

Spider, you must be one of the lucky few!
 
Powerball should have a bonus point system.

If you all dont like not drawing a tag dont put in for one, that way we dont have to read about everbody bitchin and moaning about it.
 
I do not want to see preference or bonus points myself. I have young kids that I hope will be able to draw some hunts someday, but if we go to the point systems they will be too young to get in on the inception.

I would like to see three things that I believe would help odds overall.

1. Go back to making people put thier money up front like they used to do with all species, but now just the trophy species.

2. Go to a three year waiting period on antlered or either sex hunts for deer and elk

3. Move antelope into the trophy species category without the once in a lifetime ruling. That would allow people that really like to hunt antelope the opportunity to put in for them only, with what I believe would be much better odds. I believe a lot of people put in for them because they can at the same time as deer and elk and if they draw its a bonus.

Just my .02
 
The ones who will be bitchin and moaning about it will be the guys who dont understand point systems when one gets put in a few years from now. And then if you don't like point systems dont put in for tags in Idaho, that way we don't have to hear you bitchin and moaning about it!
 
like you are bitchin and moaning now moosie? I am tired already of your viewpoint. Don't put in for Idaho now cause it's not the way You like it... cause if you don't like Random draw........ It's not a lack of understanding points, it's the inherent flaws that are opposed.
 
it wont change the resident odds hardly at all, but the NR odds will go way down, because more NR's will apply so they can get a point. as of now, many NR's dont want to apply because they only get general hunts out of it.

the residents will or should want point and the NR's shouldnt.

if ID does go to point i would see only the controlled hunts having points and still having the general OTC hunts. that is the perfect world for the resident.... so yeah, bring em on!

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Packs Dealer
 
I have only ever heard of one point-based system that didn't sound like a terrible idea. I don't like the idea of the wealthy buying points, or for new or young hunters to be disadvantaged.

Random draw is as unbiased as it gets. I still support it even though my success hasn't been great. This year I finally got an antelope tag after 13 years of trying.
 
It is either lack of understanding or just plain lying to try and convince people to be against the proposals the IDFG is thinking about. All the anti-point posts about it will take you 20 years before you can draw, or with a point system you could only draw a tag once or twice in a lifetime, or the youths and new hunters would not have a chance, and I could not hunt every year is B.S! The proposal IDFG has been trying to put in place is not a strict "Preference" point system but a "Bonus" point system where you dont need to have a certain # of points to draw but the more points you do have the more times your name is in the hat for the controlled hunts. And there has been no talk of eliminating OTC tags or the youth tags that we already have.
If you just don't want to deal with points your intitled to your opinion, but don't just make things up!
 
Lame argument, "What about the children". Let me tell you, I never went on a controlled hunt under the age of 25 because of the random draw! If we would of had a point system I probably would of experience at least two of them or more. If done correctly there is no way a random draw is more fair, NO WAY! However, what scares the heck out of me though, is what kind of system might the IDFG come up with. At this point I'm not for a point system until I see what they come up with.
 
Okay enlighten us then what is greater than equal chance of drawing?? equal means same proportion correct???? Point creeping, point banking, putting mom and every other non hunter to make sure you can draw again as party... after you draw your tag ..... random point assignment with a numerical value Like some do? For example one of your chances has #1 and another has #135 did I leave anything out ?? Sounds great to me, Oh wait we have seen that in past in other states.

One definition of preference "the act, fact or principle of giving advantages to some over others. So advantage is what? Not everyone can win. Show some empirical data on the bias of random draw and probability. You know outliers, base line, coefficient ect... causal vs correlated . I mean put some numbers on all this lying we have been doing. This is fun I almost feel like bobcat bess!!
 
I hope we never go to a point system, but I wouldn't mind having it so you could only apply for one species per year period. The draw odds would increase dramatically.
 
To you people who want a point system be careful what you wish for. The fact that you personally haven't drawn in 20 years or the last 4 years or whatever doesn't matter. You need to look at odds. You may very well go with a WA system.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you want to hunt sheep. You put want an Umptanum tag and 6,289 people put in for it last year because it was only $5 and you get a point. Yippie! Those people averaged approximately 10 points in that draw. With 10 points you square the points so each of them gets 100 "balls" in the hopper. So there are 628,900 balls in the hopper. YOUR ODDS ARE 1:628,900! You apply or your child does with 1 point and you get 1 ball in the hopper... The next year you get 2 points and square that so there are now 4 "balls" in the hopper. Problem is that everyone else got another point too so they are now at 11 points and you square that and now they got 121 "balls" in the hopper. You fall farther and farther behind.

It's the same with deer and elk. A premium bull tag is just about a once in a lifetime tag now. Let's look at your Idaho odds on an average sheep tag now. Take an average unit like unit 19 and you see that there are 4 tags and 60 residents put in for those tags. Your odds are about 1:15 to draw a sheep tag. Now you may not draw that tag the next 20 years but your odds are decent and the best of any state to draw a tag like this.

I encourage you to look at the numbers in other states with preference points and realize what you have. Your odds are good for any area practically. Your personal frustration of not drawing will put yourself in a worse hole.

If you want to up your draw odds make people pick the species they want to draw for and stick with 1 species. Put the money up front, limit others to not draw another elk or deer tag. There are lots of options but points is not it. Don't blindly think it will up your odds of drawing. If you waited 20 years be prepared to wait another 20 years guaranteed.
 
At the risk of spoiling the fun (sorry Grizzly), here's a repost of info from the last iteration of this discussion in April.

"There seems to be some misunderstanding of the recent history surrounding a point system in Idaho. Several excerpts from Commission meetings, etc. below provide details.

In a nutshell, there was a public survey (Oct 2005) and the majority of respondents were in favor of a bonus point system. The majority was also not in favor of paying more for the contract to implement a new system. The Commission endorsed a bonus point system as long as the cost did not come out of existing budget/programs. So the Commission/Department submitted draft legislation in 2006 to allow the Commission to charge an additional application fee for such a system. When that bill died in the 2006 legislature, the Commission shelved the idea of implementing a point system, essentially leaving further action on the issue to the legislature. The 2009 legislature has now completed the step began in 2006 and the Commission will almost undoubtedly resume discussion about the issue in the near future.

Mar 22, 2005 Commission meeting
"Commissioners endorsed pursuing a bonus point squared system similar to Nevada?s system.
05-28 Commissioner Wright moved and Commissioner Power seconded a motion TO ENDORSE THE TIMELINE PRESENTED BY STAFF AND TO DIRECT STAFF TO PROCEED WITH A BONUS POINTS SQUARED SYSTEM. The motion carried in a unanimous vote."

Aug 29, 2005 Commission meeting
"Brad Compton, Wildlife Game Manager, presented a final draft of the public scoping survey on the proposed bonus points system (Appendix 38, Exhibit 90)...The survey will be distributed through a random mailing to 600 applicants for controlled hunts for deer, elk, antelope, and moose. It will also be available on the Internet and through the Regions.
05-59 Commissioner Wheeler moved and Commissioner Watts seconded TO ACCEPT THE SURVEY AS PRESENTED AND DIRECT STAFF TO PROCEED WITH THE SURVEY. The motion carried unanimously."

A few survey results (respondents were 88% residents, 12% nonresidents):
How acceptable would it be for the Department to implement a Bonus Point system for controlled hunts?
Very acceptable = 34%
Somewhat acceptable = 27%
Neutral = 14%
Somewhat unacceptable = 8%
Very unacceptable = 17%

Combination of 2 questions regarding willingness to pay basically showed 30-40% found it acceptable to increase application cost by $5 to pay a contractor to implement and conduct a point system drawing and 50-60% found a $5 charge unacceptable.

Mar 8 2006 Commission meeting
"? HB523 to give the Commission authority to implement a surcharge for a bonus points system passed the House."

The bill later died, so did not become law (see below).

May 18 2006 Commission meeting
"Craig Wiedmeier presented a draft rule on bonus point implementation for Commission review (Appendix 39, Exhibit 60).
...The Commission discussed letting interested legislator(s) take this on. The Commission did the best they could, but it did not proceed when the Senate Resources and Environment Committee
voted against it. Commissioners concurred that the Commission and Department can assist, but to further effort on this issue should be in the hands of interested legislators."

May 26, 2006 news release

"Commission Shelves Bonus Points

Idaho Fish and Game Commissioners will not carry a proposal to establish a bonus point system for controlled hunts to the Legislature again.

Meeting in Coeur d'Alene May 17-19, the Commission was presented a draft of rules for a bonus point system by department staff. The Commission had asked the department for the rules draft prior to a legislative decision that halted a request to raise controlled hunt fees to cover bonus point system costs.

The added cost of the system has been estimated at $2.70 per controlled hunt application. The Commission had agreed the bonus point system would be revenue neutral.

Commissioners commented that they had gone as far as they could to start a bonus point system and that they would not lead any new effort to push the idea through the Legislature.

Some other states use a variety of systems in an attempt to improve odds for unsuccessful controlled hunt applicants in subsequent drawings. Idaho will continue to use a purely random computerized drawing, which gives each applicant an equal chance at available permits regardless of the number of times that person has applied in previous drawings."

I hope this helps clarify the issue somewhat."

The last action on the issue is over 3 years old and the Commission will re-address the issue as they see fit (or perhaps not at all). But as it was left at the time, the Commission was ready to implement a squared bonus point system similar to Nevada's. Implementation of a point system was not tied to altering current general season oppporunity nor did it necessarily apply to all species (as I recall, the Commission did not intend to include bighorn sheep or mountain goat; moose was questionable).


Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
Again, Tom comes in and stops the conjecture and hypothesizing, what else are we going to do until Archery Season?

I just wanted to throw in my next two cents. I really like the idea of one species only.

You can pretty much guess that everybody who puts in for deer, also puts in for elk; if that's the case...making everybody choose one would double the odds for both species immediately.

I would then seriously consider a 3+ year waiting period (maybe only for the species you drew, but maybe it should apply to all species).

Everybody has valid points though.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]Tom,

Thanks for posting that info. I hadn't seen the thread on the topic back in April and didn't know the status of the proposal.

I located some meeting minutes from March 2006 that say: "Bonus Point System Update
Craig Wiedmeier, License Section Supervisor, provided an overview of a potential bonus point system for controlled hunt drawings (Appendix 39, Exhibit 37). He covered how points would be accumulated and squared as well as how points would work on group applications. Species included in the bonus point drawings will be deer, elk, and pronghorn."

Is there any way for the public to view this "Appendix 39 Exhibit 37", or otherwise see specific details on how the proposed bonus point system would work?

Thanks.
Paul


edit: I dug into the Nevada DOW site and found the the description of their bonus point system:
http://www.ndow.org/hunt/apps/bonus/guidelines.shtm
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]>Again, Tom comes in and stops
>the conjecture and hypothesizing, what
>else are we going to
>do until Archery Season?
>
>I just wanted to throw in
>my next two cents.
>I really like the idea
>of one species only.
>
>You can pretty much guess that
>everybody who puts in for
>deer, also puts in for
>elk; if that's the case...making
>everybody choose one would double
>the odds for both species
>immediately.
>
>I would then seriously consider a
>3+ year waiting period (maybe
>only for the species you
>drew, but maybe it should
>apply to all species).
>
>Everybody has valid points though.
>
>Grizzly

Interesting thoughts, however a one species limit and a 3 year waiting period would result in a big loss of revenue due to the drop in applications. So, from a buniness stand point I'm thinking, not likely unless they increase fees to off set the difference.
 
I actually think point systems would work in almost every state for deer and elk if they changed one thing. You lost your points if you hunted deer or elk that year. Even if you don't get drawn and want to hunt a general area then you lose your points. Most guys are still going to want to hunt, so the guys that really want that premium tag might sit out for 3-4 years but I don't think it would take much longer then that.
 
>Interesting thoughts, however a one species
>limit and a 3 year
>waiting period would result in
>a big loss of revenue
>due to the drop in
>applications. So, from a buniness
>stand point I'm thinking, not
>likely unless they increase fees
>to off set the difference.
>


I concure, but to increase odds you either have to increase tags or decrease applicants. To maintain quality, increasing tags is out of the question. So you must decrease applicants for that particular unit/species.

Many Idaho deer hunts have odds in the 10% range. Or 1 in 10 years; if you mandate one specie only, then they go to roughly 1 in 5 years, throw in the 3 year waiting period and the statistical odds probably go to somewhere like 1 in 3.

Those are the best in the country for a decent hunt, I am willing to pay increased fees to hunt a quality unit every 3 years; I think most people would too.

Grizzly
 
So Tom as an employee of the IDFG( or anyone else who cares) when you look at the description of Nevadas point system and Idaho was going to impliment one simular. Do you agree that they would need to increase fees or even charge 5 dollars to come up with a one page description of what a bonus points system is? Seems to me that all that would need to be done is a change in the computer system to run the points system. Just asking i know there is a lot more that goes into it but heck to charge us to come up with something that's already been done before seems silly. I like Idaho's system the way it is, and no I did not draw this year. Just what I think, what are your thoughts.
 
ID_Paul: "Is there any way for the public to view this "Appendix 39 Exhibit 37", or otherwise see specific details on how the proposed bonus point system would work?"

I'm not seeing the appendix text on the web site, but as a matter of public record, it should be available from the HQ in Boise. It was probably a power point presentation for the commission, but may have been a text document as well. If/when the Commission revisits the issue there will certainly be news releases and more information available because it will require rule-making by the Commission, which is an open, public process.

Idahoan, I do not know enough about the adminstration of such a system to provide a detailed answer about costs. My understanding is the agency put together a request for proposals, researched options, and generated cost estimates. I'm sure costs would differ between an in-house system vs. one run by a contractor and depend on how much of the draw process (number of species, etc.) is done by the contractor. Many states use contractors for draws in the same way many corporations contract with independent auditing companies or states use contractors for lotteries...to maintain credibility of the system. A contractor is definitely going to charge for initial program development as well as annual processing of applications and maintenance of accounts to keep track of everyone's points, etc. Although a computer program would be similar, if a different company won the contract they would be starting new and an existing contractor would likely have to do some reprogramming because of differences between states. Other costs include things like generating and mailing postcards to applicants, maintaining a toll-free number and website for questions and checking results, conducting checks for applicant eligibility, generating draw statitics, etc. Any new program has costs, both start-up and ongoing, that may not be apparent. For example, you can bet there would be hundreds to thousands of calls and e-mails from people asking questions about how the system works, what their point level is, why they didn't draw, what draw odds are based on points. If the same number of staff people are responding to these issues, it means something else is not being done. To accomplish the existing workload, that means adding staff whether it is a contractor or in-house.

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
In reference to the 'buying points' comment. You have to remember something about Idaho.
If you put in for Moose, Sheep or Goat, you CANNOT put in for Elk, Deer or Antelope.
A person has to pick which of the three he's going to go for. You just can't buy points and sit back and wait.
 

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