Preference...??

[SMOKESTICK]

Just had a member ask me about resident preference points.

After a brief discussion, I agreed to run a few polls to ask what Wyoming Residents thought about preference points. So, here it is:

As a Wyoming resident which would you prefer:
1- No changes, leave in current form
2- Establish Resident Preference Points
3- Establish waiting period for hard to draw hunt areas

Thanks for participating in this unscientific poll.

 

[TOPGUN]

Great! I can't vote because, as you know, I'm not a resident, but what do you mean by #3? Do you mean if a person draws a certain tag they then have to wait so many years to apply again, rather than being in the running evry year?

 

[SMOKESTICK]

TOPGUN,

You are welcome to vote. I do value your opinion, even though at times we may need to disagree. If you were a Wyoming resident how would you vote? Others can vote as non-residents, please just identify that is how you would vote if your lived here. Who knows, may be some day you may become a resident.

In answer to your question; yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. You would still be eligible to apply but just not for species. Hunters would still be allowed to hunt general license for that species just no allowed to apply for limited quota licenses during the established waiting period. It could be a 2-5 year period.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-11 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]Thanks Bob! As a nonresident wishing I was a resident of the Cowboy state and voting that way, I would vote yes on #2 and also yes on #3.

 

[dwalton]

#1 Leave it the way it is.

Preference points for deer and elk WILL NOT work for residents for the simple reason that: a person will be able to purchase preference points very cheaply on-line, AND still buy a general tag to hunt each year. Tha's the perfect scenario for point creep.

Statistics don't lie: once the draw odds get below 10%, there will be several lifetimes of points stacked up within a couple of years. If you are not in on the ground floor, chances are you WILL NOT, EVER, draw a preference tag in the areas around Rock Springs (30, 31, 32, & 100).

The funny thing about preference points is they only improve the draw odds for one group of people (max point holders). The random draw odds will get worse.

 

[TOPGUN]

dwalton---That's an interesting and possibly very valid viewpoint. How about no PPs, but going with #3 so that a person that does draw one of those hard to get tags is then out of the pool even for say 2 or 3 years to give others a better chance to draw?

 

[nontypical]

Yes on #2 and #3,but in a different format than we have for moose,sheep and goats.Maybe only give a point to someone who hasn't drawn a tag for,say,3 or 5 years.Give that guy a BONUS point(not preference).Also,why not have 3 seperate draws.First the elk draw.If you draw LQ elk,you are out of the deer and lope draws.2nd,deer draw.If you draw deer,you can't participate in the goat draw.Draw odds for goat would increase substantially.Couple this with a waiting period.This could prevent point creep(maybe).I sure get tired of the same people drawing tags all the time,while some never draw.IMO,something needs to be done,but I AM NOT IN FAVOR of the present preference point system for moose,etc.Cap points at 3,maybe?Lots of options to look at here.Think outside the box.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

nontypical,

All good points. I mentioned three options but additional ideas and comments are great for discussion.

 

[G14]

#1

 

[Triple_BB]

Problem with preference points is most residents are too narrow minded like Walton. There are alternatives to pure preference points type systems. Colorado's system with sheep, mtn goat and moose is one of the best. Cap the points at some number and utilize either a weighted or bonus points system after max. You could also include a certain percentage of tags be given away as random draw like we do with moose/sheep. If they capped the points at 3 or 4, you would have guaranteed tags in many areas every 3 - 4 years. In some area's like 100 you might not see much improvement, but the numbers would improve none the less and if you had a bonus point system like Utah, folks would draw a tag if you stayed in long enough. A fair system is long over due in this state...

 

[dwalton]

BB,

I'd prefer statistical realist over narrow-minded. Notice I didn't include antelope in my answer. A pref point system would work great for antelope! The draw odds typically are 30 to 50% or better so applicants would cycle through very quickly (no back-log of points). Also, there is no general tag for antelope, so there wouldn't be the point creep like for deer and elk.

I've been playing the point systems for almost 2 decades, and a few things have shown to be fact:

Point systems ALWAYS change, and that change usually de-values the points that a person has collected.

Online applications and cheap costs for points always results in point-creep. (Are Colorado areas 2, 10, 61 and 201 easier to draw than they were 10 years ago?) Wyoming will have both AND general elk and deer tags.

When draw odds get below 10% for an area or species, the demand FAR outweighs the supply. With a preference system, if you're not in the top points, you will never live long enough to cycle through the system.

Hunters have become so emotionally attached to points systems that the thought of a random draw seems unfair. When in reality the only way to fairly distribute a public resource is through a completely random draw.

If I were to create a business that only gave something to the ones who were first in line, at the expense of the other 99%, I would be arrested for creating a pyramid or ponzi scheme.

Of course, there are those who think differently. Best of luck to all in this fall's hunting season!

 

[mightyhunter]

I vote for #1. I like the system just the way it is for deer and elk. I am concerned that if we went to a straight preference point system for residents, the Game and Fish would use it as an excuse to start eliminating the general seasons for elk and deer. I don't want to live in a state where I only get to hunt something every 3-4 years. At my age, I don't have that much more time left to hunt. I certainly don't want Wyoming to become like Colorado or Utah. In NW Wyoming, the Game and Fish has already trimmed the best part of season for general deer in return for limited quota late season deer hunts in units 106 and 109. They have also eliminated the general elk season in 50, 51 and 52 and will likely do the same in 55 and 56. I see no upside to a preference point system for deer and elk for my state.

 

[BuzzH]

No preference system, they are a joke, unfair, and unnecessary in a state that has such great hunting in general areas.

 

[PleaseDear]

#1

Then

#3

Robb

 

[grosventrehunter]

#1

 

[SouthernWyo]

#1. Leave the system alone, it is not broken.

As has been stated above, the only truly fair way to allocate limited tags is through a random draw.

 

[Devlin]

I'm a non resident but I would go with #1.

 

[moseleymiddleton]

#1

 

[bucklover]

Forgot to tell you when we were talking at Walmart. I like the #3 option the best. As it stands now there is a "really" long waiting period before, at least some of us, draw again anyway. Best wishes to you and your family.

 

[teamhoyt]

#1

 

[feduptwo]

Preference points for moose, and sheep in Wyoming suck. They screw youth hunters, screw anyone that is not in at the front end, and do a poor job of fairly allocating the available permits.
With that being said just thinking that the system is not broken is also nonsense. The only residents that don't have a problem is lucky guys or ones who don't put in the draw. I know of a guy who is in his late 30's and until a couple years ago had never drawn an antelope tag. That is just wrong. The only thing that makes Wyoming's system tolerable at all is we have decent general season hunting.
Option 3 would be a good start. This year HA102 (save your 102 sucks and who would want that tag comments) draw odds were 7.68% If there were a three yr waiting period for successful applicants odds would go to 23% on the third year.
In addition to the waiting period successful LE sheep, moose, and goat applicants should not be able to apply for type 1 elk, deer, and antelope licenses.
The G&F should then conduct the elk draw, and remove the Successful elk applicants out of the deer draw. The G&F should then conduct the deer draw and remove successful deer, and elk applicants from the antelope draw.
With these two changes put into place Wyoming odds would drastically improve and we wouldn't have to deal with the headaches that some point systems cause.
My second choice would be a Nevada style squared bonus point system, with no preference, and a certain split of LE permits for youth hunters.

 

[feduptwo]

I will also say that some put a lot of blame for poor hunt odds on point systems. We?ve even created B.S. terms like ?point creep? to point out how evil bonus points are. In reality draw odds = applicants/available permits. Points do nothing to change the overall odds they just attempt to fix the order in how they are issued. If bonus points don't exist at all some individuals would go lifetimes without drawing decent permits. I don't consider myself lucky and due to point systems across the western states I have had some decent tags and can plan on having some decent hunts in years to come.

 

[ICMDEER]

We need to so something different People say that the current system is fair, but it is not fair to those of us who have not drawn a trophy area antelope license in 20 years. Odds are I should have had that license 4-5 times now, but I have bad luck.

I like nontypical's post; let's do something new and creative. I'd also like to see more areas maanged for quality deer in Wyoming.

We've been through this so many times it is pathetic. Nothing is going to change.

I'd also like to see the draw odds for G&F employees and the general public get posted. Seems to me that after 30 years of watching, G&F folks have really good draw odds. There's no way they are going to change a system that allows them and their cronies to keep beating the odds. In a random draw, they get licenses all the time. If we go to a system where there will be checks and balances, it's tough to get those licenses all the time.

 

[TOPGUN]

I believe that's the first time Iv'e heard anyone call F&G people cheats, but that's what it sounds like and shame on them if it's true! I have no idea if that is even remotely accurate, but if you are aware of particular folks always drawing "hard to get" tags, than something should be done about it. I don't know exactly what, but I would think enough stink could be raised by enough people to get it looked at. I think that #3 choice may be the way to go, or some kind of a combination. The more I think about the PP system I guess maybe I can understand what you guys are saying about certain animals or areas that have very few tags issued. Before the nonresident PP system was instituted my buddy and I both drew separate antelope tags for our unit in the random draw the first time we applied. Then it took me four years to draw a license under the PP system. Even though I knew I would draw the tag that year, the other years I would have had an equal chance with everybody else, but under this PP deal I had no chance for 3 or 4 years. I definitely don't care for the idea of drawing one license and then automatically being tossed out of the chance to hunt other animals that year. Therefore, the #3 choice with some type of a waiting period, even if it's only 2 years, would help even the score when there are not a ton of residents hunting the state like say CO for instance.

 

[dwalton]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-11 AT 03:26PM (MST)[p]feduptwo,

If you are going to start quoting statistics, at least have some factual information. You are so far off base on your logic it's not funny. To say draw odds would increase to 23% in area 102 in the third year is wrong. This year there were 3880 applicants for 298 resident tags. After three years, there would only be 894 people on a waiting period, with 2986 applicants left. This yields 9.97% draw odds, not 23%. With the current point system (moose/sheep), there would be 10 more years worth of applicants at the top point pool.

You also said: Points do nothing to change the overall odds they just attempt to fix the order in how they are issued.

Once again - wrong. Preference points give only those with the most points improved odds. Those in the random draw will see their chances of drawing a permit cut exponentially.

Point creep is a statistical fact: just look at how it takes more points to draw in each successive year in Colorado's premium areas (another preference point state with on-line applications, and cheap point fees).

I'd love to debate the statistical facts when it comes to drawing odds and point systems, but I'm getting a little weary of being called narrow-minded and un-informed by those who think draw odds can be improved for everyone through a preference point system (statistically impossible in low draw odds areas).

 

[nontypical]

What's so bad about having 3 draws?Use the format I talked about in my first post and feduptwo alluded to.If you draw elk,you are out of the deer and goat draw.If you draw deer,you are out of the goat draw.It will spread people out which will increase odds.If you would rather hunt deer than elk,chances are you won't even put in for elk,thus increasing elk draw odds for others(I would do this).Antelope odds would probably double!The worst thing that could happen is YOU COULD STILL HUNT GENERAL SEASON!Sorry for yelling,but everyone keeps overlooking that fact in their greed to draw 2 or 3 tags.I drew an antelope tag this year(1st LQ tag for any species in the last 4 years).I have decided I will make this my main hunt this year,and try to kill my biggest ever goat.Do we really need to draw 2 or 3 LQ tags every year?Why not let somebody else have a shot at one!You throw a 3 year waiting period on top of the 3-draw system,and odds will increase.Throw a BONUS point system on top of that:If you don't draw after 3 years of applying for a species,you get 1 BONUS point.After 2 more years,another BP.After 1 more unsuccessful year,another.Cap BP's at three.Give Jim a chance to draw the goat tag he's been putting in for for 20 years!These are just suggestions,and flexible.IMO,Wy should set up a task force to address this issue.

 

[dwalton]

nontypical,

How much more would the people of Wyoming be willing to pay for all of this? All of this will cost money. Just playing devil's advocate here. The reason behind the resident preference point bill (voted down in committee this year) was to increase revenue.

 

[TOPGUN]

nontypical---I'm glad you shouted in that last post! I'm trying to think as a resident on this thread, but being a nonresident I was thinking of all of our tags being by draw. I think you may have something there with a person being out of the other draws if you draw a tag in one of the three, if that person could then hunt an animal in a general season or unit. Thinking outside the box like that is exactly what needs to be done and it would be nice if some kind of a coalition could be formed to work on stuff like that to present ideas to the F&G and their Commissioners.

 

[feduptwo]

Dwalton,

My numbers were wrong. I must of fat fingerd my calculator. I also agree that bpreference points don't change the overall odds. They do award people who have put in longer or haven't yet drawn a tag with a better chance of drawing
Points creep is BS. As a unit gains popularity the amount of points it takes to draw creeps up. If a unit gains popularity in a state that doesn't have points the odds go down. The end product is the same, the unit gets harder to draw. Points don't cause this phenomenon popularity of the unit does.
Like I said earlier points do award those who have put in longest or havent yet drawn a better chance. Every year I
put on for NV I have a better chance of
Drawing.
The plan nontypical and I have touched on would improve odds by taking applicant's out of the draw and although it wouldn't help drastically in hard to draw units it would greatly improve the overall odds for the le draw.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

My bias is to simply implement #3. If that doesn't appear to fix the problems, then look at adding some other kind of layer. The idea of allowing residents to only draw one limited quota type hunt seems reasonable but I have yet drawn more than one quota tag per year.

By far, most of the votes have been for #1, which is to do nothing. I guess I would ask those that have or would vote for #1 if they would be opposed to #3, adding some kind of waiting period for limited quota areas?

It seems as though several agree that something needs to be done. The addition of a waiting period doesn't appear to be that unpalatable to most. If the waiting period wasn't enough, we could always look at doing something else.

 

[grosventrehunter]

SMOKESTICK, I originally posted #1, but would not be apposed to #3, adding a waiting period. I'm not a fan of the preference/bonus point system even though I play the game in multiple other states. I also like being able to apply for LQ deer, elk, and antelope each year. I don't want to pick and choose just one. I know this will make a lot of non- residence upset, nevertheless we also need to get on tract with other states in regards to how many non resident tags we issue (10% would be a good number). I agree something needs to be done!!

 

[PleaseDear]

I voted #1 then #3....

I guess Wyo could piggyback Idaho with a waiting period after drawing an LQ tag.

So okay----depending on the waiting period years----maybe 2 years max.....I could live with it....


I do not like the basically One Brown animal logic of draw one and you are out of the rest.....that stinks with Utard logic....and it sucks big time!

Robb

PS A ressy point system would really BENIFIT me as all my (max pts on Deer/Antelope) would follow me to a ressy.

 

[TOPGUN]

SMOKESTICK---I've been mulling this over since the thread got going and I made my first post. I hope I don't give you a heart attack when you read this post, LOL! I think #3 of some sort along the lines of what you are suggesting should be put in effect on a trial basis for say 3 to 5 years. See if it's working, needs to be tweeked, or outright dropped and go accordingly. What could it hurt when something obviously needs to be done!

 

[SMOKESTICK]

If sportsmen will rally around establishing a waiting period, I believe we could accomplish this is a short order.

Initially, I would suggest that a waiting period be applied only to the specific species drawn. The only down side I can see is if someone was lucky enough to draw LQ licenses for two or three species in one year they would obviously be required to sit out for all of the species for which they drew. Fortunately, in Wyoming, we also have some pretty good general areas where they could still hunt deer and elk.

I am assuming that they would also be eligible for left over tags, even the species for which the waiting period would apply. Is that how everyone else is seeing it?

 

[TOPGUN]

I would not be adverse to setting the draw up so you could only draw one LE tag and then had to go general for the others. I just want to be out somewhere as many days as I can before I can't hunt any more! I'll be 64 in two weeks and I know I'm on the downhill side of being able to do what I did even five years ago as far as accessing remote places. I know BuzzH has always been for limiting access by closing roads during the season in certain areas that are too easily hunted by truck or quads. I really think he has something there to increase the quality of the hunt and animals and I hunt the area I do because vehicles are restricted to the main roads. If quads were allowed, the area would be ruined in one season because of it's accessibility with one.

 

[nontypical]

dwalton-Maybe G&F could fork over some of the money to pay for the 3-draw system with some of their wolf or grizzly money.Those are species we can't hunt,yet we pay for them anyway.Not saying I'm opposed to non-huntable species being paid for by hunters;just that maybe hunters should be a little higher priority.After all,we do foot the bill for everything.I work with a guy who had a 5 year run of drawing 4 premium tags during those 5 years.1 102 deer tag and 3 area 30 bull elk tags.Check the odds on area 30 type 1.According to the odds,he is 1 over his lifetime limit for drawing that tag(he was over 30 when he drew the first).Not to begrudge the guy his luck,but I think maybe we need to give the unlucky guy a little better chance at drawing a tag once in awhile.Remember,we can still hunt general EVERY year!Robb- a two year wait would only up odds by a percentage point or two.Wouldn't even be worth doing.Everyone that is opposed to points keeps saying how great our general hunting is.What would be so bad about hunting general then?I've hunted general elk for the last 21 years(since I last drew an LQ elk tag).I've hunted general deer since 2000,when I last drew a deer tag.Maybe with a 3-5 year waiting period,I would have drawn another one of either.Wyoming resident hunters are spoiled beyond belief.Would not bother me at all to see some more equitable distribution of premium tags.Not saying we need to be like Utah.We have brains here!Let's figure something out!

 

[PleaseDear]

Heck yeh--- #3 --waiting period only --on LQ tags drawn--not species specific like cutting out OTC/General/LO species tags.

That is what I am thinking....

Plus-- for sure make it perfectly clear it is a trial time frame not set in stone for freaking life...then... if it isn't really moving folks thru the draw process with LQ tags drawn---tweak it or re-visit other options...

Granted--- A very few poster's on some hunting (M&M) website will not represent the masses of Wyo ressy hunters...but it might give it a 'push' to a trial timeframe.

Robb

 

[grizzly]

I would say #3, but only on hard-to-draw units. Like units that averaged less than 10-20% draw odds over the previous 5 years. (New Mexico classifies High-Demand units from the others, so it is possible.)

The problem with waiting periods is that a three-year waiting period only improves odds for three years, then it levels off and stays the same. So the gain is quite minimal, 2% in 102, as stated above. After that, for every hunter entering the waiting period another hunter comes out of the waiting period...so it doesn't help that much.

So, after all that. Just leave it alone.

Grizzly

 

[feduptwo]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-11 AT 10:31PM (MST)[p]
A 3 year waiting period will be a good start. I would keep it for every hunt area in Wyoming. We have to keep it simple or the g&f could screw it up.
If a limited entry unit had starting odds of 50% and the same pool of hunters put in for the unit the second year odds would be 100%. The third year the odds would be 200% meaning that people on their waiting period would be able to buy that permit when they went for sale over the counter. All LE tags would still be utilized, some would just go on sale in July.
The three years waiting period really has great results on units with 20%-50% starting odds.
There's also a good possibility that some of the less sought after permits would end up going to guys who abandon the harder to draw units.
Dwalton raised a question of cost to nontypical and I would comment its high time residents quit with the welfare mentality and start paying what the permit is worth. Resident sheep, moose, elk, and deer limited entry tags should triple in price next year, you know fair market value. Youth le prices should remain the same or lower as well as general season permits except as they need to be raised for inflation. We could earmark the extra money for massive habitat projects. I'm a working guy and don't have a ton of extra money but hunting is a high priority and I'd find a way to fund it. If I couldn't afford it I would still hunt general.

 

[TOPGUN]

I'm glad to hear a resident speak to the cost of their licenses. I really think it is time for residents in all the states out west to start paying a better share than they are and quit depending on nonresident money to cover the biggest percentage of what their F&G department operates on. I don't think there would be near the cry from nonresidents that they are getting screwed in the draw percentages, etc. if the residents were paying a better percentage of the operational costs.

 

[feduptwo]

Not for lowering the non resident license either but for Wyoming being one of the most free spirited, conservative states in the union we have lots of welfare minded folks at least when it comes to big game permits, especially moose and sheep.

 

[TOPGUN]

That was a general statement I made on all the states and I am not advocating lowering ANY of our license fees.

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-11 AT 01:50PM (MST)[p]Topgun,

If a NR is whining about "getting screwed in the draw" in Wyoming, they have their head up their a$$.

Wyoming is MORE than generous to NR's...in quality, quantity, and price.

 

[Triple_BB]

Buzz, sounds like yer holding back. Tell us how you really feel...

 

[TOPGUN]

BuzzH---I was not counting myself in the nonresident statement I made because I compeltely agree with you and that's why I hunt Wyoming every year. A lot of people gripe, but I still think that overall, Wyoming has about the best system around for NRs.

 

[BuzzH]

How can NR's gripe?

They get over 50% of the antelope tags in Wyoming, 25% of all sheep, goat, and moose.

More than 25% of the elk and deer tags as well.

About the best?

Any NR hunter can get on line right now and buy a whole pocket full of permits for this season.

You point out who's complaining about being treated unfairly as a NR in Wyoming...I'd like to chat with them.

I think you're making stuff up again.

 

[TOPGUN]

Now you know I wouldn't make anything up when it comes to hunting and you sure didn't need to tell me any of what you just did because I know what she has to offer! Some day I may just call Wyoming my home and then she will have problems with the two of us in the same state, LOL!!!

 

[flukehunter]

1, but they should add the deer feed stamp and the pronghorn stamp.On second thought just 1.