Questions for Don Peay

wimpy

Member
Messages
43
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-09 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]In 1995, I sat right beside you in the Southeastern RAC meeting and helped you push the change from limited entry to harvest objective (quota) for the 12-year cougar plan. Since Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife was one of the main components to develop and push this plan through, would you kindly tell me what has changed since then?

Second, what is your personal opinion on the new 12-year plan?

Third, what percentage of Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife members, who are fully aware of the changes, would support the new plan (maybe 10%?)?

Every Sportmens for Fish and Wildlife member that I have talked to, with the exception of Byron Bateman and John Bair, is highly pissed off when they hear about this.

Thanks,

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-09 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]Sounds like he's busy in Alaska killin bears,,And normal every day SFW stuff..
 
He's probably busy hiring 2 more of his buddy's to work for SFW. How many people now work for his non-profit organization anyway? Holy cow how many does it take. There's no one except for Don policing the organization, so he can do as he wants. I'm sorry for my attitude, but all his done is take care of the rich, they can own and have a great hunting tag every year they want. And us poor people funded his organization for them to enjoy.
 
I got a ton of grief a few years ago when SFW was trying to break into AZ like they did in Utah. Some interesting threads back then during the USO mess. Heard a lot of BS from them and they still don't have squat here because the state won't play the games. Never entrust your wildlife to a private organization no matter how much they dress it up. JMO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-09 AT 12:01PM (MST)[p]If you look at the shape the deer and elk herds were in about 10-15 years ago then you cant argue with the success of SFW. Utahs hunting is one of the best there is. SFW's habitat improvements are working. I believe they are the ones funding the coyote bounties also.

One thing I have learned in the hunting politics game is you dont always get everything you want. If you get half of what you want you are ahead of the game. Utah is going to have a few big changes coming in 2010 and I believe it is for the better.

IMHO I think some of the comments like what were stated above are from a few ignorant individuals that don't have a clue of what is going on in Utah.

IM NOT A SFW MEMBER AND NEVER HAVE BEEN!!!

now back to his question!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
gleninaz, That is an interesting statement "Never entrust your wildlife to a private organization" I can't name an organization that I think the Gov. runs well. Although you may or may not agree with what a private group does, the public can put them out of business by not supporting it. The Gov. doesn't care if it runs in the red, and ranks low in public opionion, they don't answer to anyone.

I personally think the conservation groups, although not perfect, have accomplished tasks the gov. fish and game deptments would have never and would never accomplished.

I have been a member of SFW for 9 yrs, I also support several other conservation groups. I don't agree with every decision made but I do see the results of years of hard work by these groups and can't thank them enough.
 
Hey Wimpy,, i wouldn't hold my breath waiting to get an answer out of Don.. I just got off of the phone with a friend in Alaska
and he tells me Don has moved to Fairbanks,,I don't know if he did or didn't..But one thing is for sure and that is he's pouring a bunch of time and energy into sewing up some tags in Alaska,, And promoting his new org. the full curl society.
And the good folks of Alaska are none to happy with him coming there to shove his save Alaska wildlife campaign down there throats.. Iguess he is about done saving Utah and is moving on to bigger and better paying states..
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=61968
 
My point is not to support the government but that all the wildlife is owned by the states and therefore the public. I am perfectly happy that Arizona has never given in to private tags or handing out handfuls of free tags to support conservation. I never said the organizations were all bad. I just don't trust anyone including our congress when it comes to handing over money with little or no checks and balances. Is SFW totally transparent on every dollar raised and every dollar spent? Do they work to promote more public access to hunting? If so then I have not kept up and apologize.
 
Is SFW totally transparent? No, but if you dig you can find most of the answers where the money is going. I don't believe they are intentionally hiding anything it has more to do with the size of the organization and the time it takes access the information.

Do they work to support public access? absolutly yes!! They have purchased several peices of land and opened them up to the public. I believe this is the biggest misconception with SFW "they work for the rich guy" That is a true statement however they work even harder for the blue collar guy. If you look at the increase in tags Utah has seen over the Last 10 yrs I believe that is 95% due to all the conservation groups in Utah, and SFW is at the front of the pack. Kudos to all the groups working togather and making it happen.

One thing SFW does better than anyone else is fight the politcal battles, I don't think there is anyway to put a price tag on this, The return on investment in the political realm is huge. There are other groups that do as good maybe even better in conservation but nobody does as well in the political arena as SFW.
 
Well, runamuk, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife supporting a 12-year cougar plan that is totally 180 degrees from what he was supporting is NOT normal every day SFW stuff, in my opinion, and I think it deserves a response.

runamuk, since you seem to know, would you please tell me when you knew that SFW was going to support the limited entry plan -- limiting hunters and hunting revenue?


swbuckmaster -- I agree with you that the deer and elk herds are better now than they were 15 years ago. The deer herds that are doing the best are where we have managed the lions the best. Why would SFW support going back to a system that failed at managing lions in Utah, and a system that limits hunter opportunity and hunting revenue?
I -- either me or members of my immediate family -- have been a sponsoring member since SFW first came Blanding. I do know the workings of SFW, and this flip-flop is the straw that broke the camel's back and I will not support them anymore.


noluck -- No, SFW is not transparent. Many of the things that SFW has proposed have hurt me personally but I have accepted them, figuring it was for the best of Utah. But, when they push a 12-year cougar plan that virtually takes us back to 1995, limiting hunters and hunting revenue, I have a problem with that. In my opinion, it is a plan that will not benefit the lions at all. I think it will actually hurt the lions.


Question for anybody who supports this plan: How will putting San Juan unit on a split season benefit one single hunter, or even benefit the lions?
 
Well, runamuk, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife supporting a 12-year cougar plan that is totally 180 degrees from what he was supporting is NOT normal every day SFW stuff, in my opinion, and I think it deserves a response.

runamuk, since you seem to know, would you please tell me when you knew that SFW was going to support the limited entry plan -- limiting hunters and hunting revenue?


swbuckmaster -- I agree with you that the deer and elk herds are better now than they were 15 years ago. The deer herds that are doing the best are where we have managed the lions the best. Why would SFW support going back to a system that failed at managing lions in Utah, and a system that limits hunter opportunity and hunting revenue?
I -- either me or members of my immediate family -- have been a sponsoring member since SFW first came Blanding. I do know the workings of SFW, and this flip-flop is the straw that broke the camel's back and I will not support them anymore.


noluck -- No, SFW is not transparent. Many of the things that SFW has proposed have hurt me personally but I have accepted them, figuring it was for the best of Utah. But, when they push a 12-year cougar plan that virtually takes us back to 1995, limiting hunters and hunting revenue, I have a problem with that. In my opinion, it is a plan that will not benefit the lions at all. I think it will actually hurt the lions.


Question for anybody who supports this plan: How will putting San Juan unit on a split season benefit one single hunter, or even benefit the lions?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-09 AT 10:27AM (MST)[p]I didn't think that anybody would try to answer my question about the spilt season. Truth is, it only hurts the hunter and doesn't benefit anybody.

This year I purchased a Harvest Ojbective cougar tag. I can hunt any harvest objective unit that is still open, including San Juan, with no pressure or rush to fill.

Under the new plan, if you want to hunt the San Juan unit the first thing you have to do is DRAW the tag. Then you are locked into that unit only. So, while this year you could go to any harvest ojbective unit that is still open, next year you can't until March 1st.

The new plan severely limits hunter opportunity in two ways: First, only the few hunters that draw a tag will get to hunt the San Juan unit during the prime time to hunt a lion. Second, those hunters that do draw a tag will be locked into that unit, so if there are better condition on another open unit, you still can't hunt there until March 1st.

I do think that the split season, if it is used for what it was developed for, is a great tool. In the Southeastern RAC meeting, I proposed using the spilt season when a harvest ojbective unit closes within the first three weeks of the season.

My next question for somebody that supports this plan: Which is better and why -- limited entry draw or harvest objective?

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Well. drawing a tag for the split season probly sure helps out the guys that drew it. not haveing to compete with every hounddogger in the state that show up every time it snows. and limited entrys alot better if you hope to get a lion thats over 2 years old.....But....if it was up to me, the whole state would be on quota. with year round huntin. and a female subquota of 2 on every unit.
 
To bad the RMEF and MDF and even the DWR has done nothing in the last 10-15 years for elk and deer in Utah??????

Robb
 
Wimpy,
Why not email Don directly? Bet you would get and answer quicker than coming on here and picking a fight? But maybe that is what you are looking for?
 
Fullcry: That is what everybody says-- that I am just an outfitter that is just out for himself. If I was just in it for the money, I would not be outfitting. Tell me why an outfitter cannot care about the lions, to want to have them managed in the way that is best for them.

Muley_73: I have and so have several chapter members down here and as far as I know, no answer yet. I think that he needs to answer to all of his SFW members.

Beardog: That is what everyone says--the limited entry is to provide less pressure. In the state of Utah the pressure is not determined by the hunting licenses; it is determined by the pursuit permit. Just look at, and hear the complaints about the spring bear hunt. As long as the state sells a pursuit permit to every hounddogger that wants one then that is what determines the hunting pressure. By the way, how many of you 400 Utah hound members have read the plan? It says, ?Pursuit (chase or no-kill) seasons provide additional recreational opportunities over most of the State. The pursuit season generally follows the hunt season, but specific units have year-round pursuit and a few units are closed to pursuit.? If this is talking about the way it has been, it is incorrect, or are they going to cut back your pursuit season?

Now back to the question, draw or harvest objective. In the draw, it is a lot more of a guess as to the lions that will be harvested. Keven Bunnell says that we start out with twice as many tags as lions that they want harvested and go from there. There is no way of telling how many of the tags will be drawn by people that have a way to fill them, or even want to fill them. The Harvest objective (quota system) sets the exact number and shuts the season down when that many lions are harvested, taking the guess work out of it. The way that the new 12-year plan works is that all units will go to limited draw or split season. The harvest objective system provides hunter opportunity, while the limited entry limits hunter opportunity.

I am not the only one that thinks that the Harvest objective is the way to go. Most states that border Utah use and promote the quota system. This is a quote from Daniel Thompson of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department: ?Currently the Wyoming Game and Fish Department (WGFD) uses a quota system to manage mountain lions throughout the state. The state is divided into five Mountain Lion Management Units (MLMU?s) and further separated into 31Hunt Areas (HA?s; Figure 1). This type of system allows managers to address local management needs/concerns related to population status of mountain lions, while maintaining long-term population viability. The management plan incorporates a source/sink/stable management regime, where differential management scenarios are applied to Hunt Areas within MLMU?s in order to allow for adaptive management of the population and increased harvest opportunities. Therefore mountain lion populations are increasing, decreasing, or stable based on the particular management objective pertaining to said hunt area.?

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
As a Hunter,as a Guide and as a Retired Outfitter,I care about LIONS too, but I dont agree with you.I agree with beardog on everything he said but the end.
In my opinion, all your doing is making yourself and outfitters in general look bad.
 
The interesting thing here is that at the wildlife board meeting all the houndsmen groups spoke in favor of the new plan. The tag numbers will be determined by the nummber of mature females harvested so if you want more tags on the San Juan make sure you harvest Toms. The reality of this new plan is that it should stabilize the cougar population through the state. There is still allowance for a unit to go to predator management if the deer/sheep herds are suffering to allow for harvest objective or split season (what the manti will be this season)
 
I believe you can buy a pursuit tag and chase lions, unless there is an exception in San Juan county. The Bookcliffs is split, I buy a Rattlesnake tag then buy a pursuit tag for the East end. Harvest Objectives are nothing but a free for all which results in young cats and females being killed. I listened to the folks at the same rac meetings you go to and you are in minority. The only people wanting straight Harvest objective units are outfitters from Utah and Colorado. Kevin has it together when it comes to his job.

I have been with SFW from the start also. I don't agree with everything they do either. But I have seen the improvements in Utah's hunting and it is a success. I started guiding cat hunters in 1983, Quit three years ago, sure is a lot more fun hunting cats now you should try it. As for bear I don't get involved in that free for all.
Mulehound
 
30plus: You have not heard me complain about the number of tags that they give out. That is the great thing about the harvest objective -- you determined how many lions you need harvested, then when you hit that number the unit closes. You say that the new plan will stabilize the lion population. Would you explain how that will happen please? I know that if a deer unit goes into predator management, then it will go back to harvest objective or split season and increase the tags between 50% and 75%. Kind of funny that when the plans let the lions build up to where they affect the deer that much, they go back to what works to slaughter the lions. This is exactly what happened in the past. I will show you.

History of Cougars in Utah: From 1847 to 1966 they were considered a vermin in Utah. In 1967, the state changed their status to protected wildlife. The tags were just over the counter so anybody and everybody could get one. Somewhere around the 1990s, the division put the lions on a limited draw. In 1990, there was a low of 275 lion tags filled. From 1990 to 1995, more tags were sold and more lions were harvested but the lion population still greatly increased, until in the RAC meeting in 1995, the uproar that came from the sportsmen, Don Peay, land owners, cattleman, etc., was so great that the division put a lot of the units to the Quota. In an attempt to get the lions back down to a number that would help with the recovery of the deer herd and work with the majority of Utahns, the division raised the quota number way high and knocked the tar out of the lion population. This is shown in the numbers of lions taken in 1996, which was 666. Since then, they have been cutting back on the quota number slowly until now. Since 2005, until now, 2009, the numbers have stabilized at around 300 lions. In the RAC meeting, Kevin Bunnell said that it looked like the lion population is starting to stabilize. This showed me that when we get the numbers right using the quota, then we can maintain a stable lion population that everyone can live with. And a population that will not eat itself into starvation and keep putting the deer herds back into predator management.

I think that the worst thing that we could do is manage the lions in a yoyo way like we have the past 14 years. It only took 5 years under limited draw to let the lion population build up until the RAC meetings were full of people that wanted all the lions in Utah gone. Is that what we need to happen again? Under the quota the lion population numbers were cut back, then the harvest numbers have been cut back, and the lion population is starting to stabilize.

The way that I see it is the houndsmen see that when there was a limited draw, there were a lot of lions; Quota, not so many lions, and not stepping back and seeing why.

I was watching TV Sunday, and Governor Herbert stated that too often in Utah, people are too passionate to step back and look at the whole picture. This is probably happening on both sides of the fence here. At least you know where I am coming from, and I invite anybody to fully explain the other side.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Harvest Objectives are nothing but a free for all which results in young cats and females being killed. I agree with that mulehound.. thats why i'd like to see a low female subquota on all the units.
 
I have two more questions for you Don. What happens to the property that SFW bought with member money if SFW goes out of business. Do you or your cronies get to keep that property. (what happens to that property.) My second question is why did SFW send the uintah basin chapter president to Alaska last week to kill a stone sheep and a moose. I know he couldnt afford the hunt. The word is SFW paid for that hunt. Why did member money go to pay for that hunt. If that is the case, why dont the members send me up there to kill a stone sheep. That has got to be a 45,000 hunt.
 
Lloyd, Lions are not here in Utah for YOU or anyone else to get rich on. I was at this last RAC meeting and it is obvious you are only into quotas so you can guide more hunters when the conditions are easy. I have guided and been in the hounds for twenty-six years. I have seen the ups and downs of all types of hunts. Look at the units that are on a quota that go over objective. I have witnessed the opening day on quota units when guides start cutting tracks at midnight and have several cats in the tree by daylight. I have seen when guides leave a lion in the tree overnight to fly the next hunter in to kill it before the quota closes. Lion hunting quality is DEFINATELY better with a limited entry than a quota. You are not concerned about quality, saying yourself you are harvesting females because you can't tell a hunter to walk away from a female. SFW is not perfect and God knows I've went to battle numerous times against them, but don't blame them for all your problems. You have to realize this plan was put together by far more than SFW, it was put together with assistance of some of the most knowledgable houndsmen in the state, and most are happy with the direction it takes cougar hunting in Utah. NUFF SAID
 
>I have two more questions for
>you Don. What happens to
>the property that SFW bought
>with member money if SFW
>goes out of business. Do
>you or your cronies get
>to keep that property. (what
>happens to that property.) My
>second question is why did
>SFW send the uintah basin
>chapter president to Alaska last
>week to kill a stone
>sheep and a moose. I
>know he couldnt afford the
>hunt. The word is SFW
>paid for that hunt. Why
>did member money go to
>pay for that hunt. If
>that is the case, why
>dont the members send me
>up there to kill a
>stone sheep. That has got
>to be a 45,000 hunt.

A little homework will let you know that a private individual paid for them to hunt is HIS thanks for what they have done for wildlife in Utah. It wasn't SFW funds that paid for the hunts, and NO I didn't go on any of the hunts.
>
 
So what you are telling me is, the rich guy sends them up there. Is that because the SFW get these rich pricks auction permits so they can hunt when and where ever they want. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours. I see how it works now.
 
"Rich pricks" Drymountain you sound like a socialist to me?

I'm not rich but if somebody has enough money to pay outrageous sums for auction permits I have no problem with that. That money goes back into habitat projects and monies to fight environmentalists that want outdoorsmen out of the picture.

These people are as thick as thieves within the government in which they use our own tax payers money to combat our way of life and take away these freedoms all outdoorsmen enjoy.

Wake up and notice how outnumbered we are when we fight amongst ourselves over the small stuff. We won't always agree on everything but let's not destroy ourselves when we have a bigger fish to fry.
 
>A little homework will let you
>know that a private individual
>paid for them to hunt
>is HIS thanks for what
>they have done for wildlife
>in Utah. It wasn't
>SFW funds that paid for
>the hunts, and NO I
>didn't go on any of
>the hunts.


Pumaguy, can you specify how many hunts were purchased, and who did go on the hunts? Sounds interesting. Who was the private individual that paid for the hunts? Just trying to do my homework before jumping to any wildazzed conclusions. Hope you can help. :)

Anyone with more info can feel free to PM as well.
 
I think DRY has a good question WHY is the rich guy paying for this guys tag,Are they gay lovers or is some-one back getting scratched? I mean what is the whole story or as Paul Harvey would say "And now for the rest of the story".


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
C'mon pumaguy, you told us to educate ourselves. You seem to have the answers, so let us know what the real story is. Gotta be less incriminating than the assumptions being thrown around now.
 
I believe the hunt had been purchased and the original owner new he was not going to be able to go. So He gave it to a great guy that would never have the chance otherwise. To bad there aint more "rich pricks" like that in the world. John bair
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-09 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]>Question for anybody who supports this
>plan: How will putting San
>Juan unit on a split
>season benefit one single hunter,
>or even benefit the lions?
>

First off, I do not in any way support those split season lion hunts. In my opinion, they have been developed to corner the winter snow month market and assist a wannabe trophy lion hunter in achieving their goals in eliminating competition, and then allowing the rough, tough, real hunters the opinion of cleaning up behind the people who can't compete in a over the counter hunt.

I support harvest objective in every unit in the state, period! If the hunters take too many lions then drop the quota until the take is right; if too many females are taken then put a female sub-quota on the unit and shut down the killing if the guides and hunters can't contain themselves. But what in the h e l l is wrong with competition? I had to make dogs and learn the sport so why don't others have to? If the sport is too hard then get the h e l l out of the sport.........

I also support yearlong hunting on those units for ethical hunters who play by the rules. That's why I got out of deer and elk hunting, because everybody wanted a trophy animal and was willing to throw everybody else under the bus to get it.......

There wasn't any lions killed over my dogs last winter although plenty climbed for them--killing comes from an attitude or need and a person can always walk away. But I believe a man or woman who feeds and trains those hounds should have the choice cause it's our sport!

Ike
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-09 AT 10:55AM (MST)[p]Good post! If people are going to speak for Utah's hunters, take their money, and change the way they hunt then they damn sure need to be held accountable..........

You know, transparent (although it didn't mean much) was the word Obama used while he was running for office.......

ike
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-09
>AT 10:55?AM (MST)

>
>Good post! If people are
>going to speak for Utah's
>hunters, take their money, and
>change the way they hunt
>then they damn sure need
>to be held accountable..........
>
>You know, transparent (although it didn't
>mean much) was the word
>Obama used while he was
>running for office.......
>
>ike
One more thing you could say, ike, Get involve yourself and have a say also. Join up and change things if you want to K.w.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-09 AT 09:24PM (MST)[p]Joining a sportmen's group is always a good idea because they say there is strength in numbers. However, I don't want big city ideas speaking for me when it comes to how we hunt, when we hunt or who gets the kill tags. I've already made my case to DWR about those split season lion hunts in my area and most of them were put in other units. I was serious what I said about competition and running hunters like me out of the sport so people who haven't paid their dues can kill a tom lion. I don't want any group speaking for me, as they tend to follow the numbers and money...

I had a buddy once tell me if you find anything in hunting or wildlife you like then get all of it you can because somebody will come along and take it away from you...And that's what that limited entry, split season stuff is, a take over!

ike

ike
 
First, the cat RAC meetings I attend I have been overall impressed with the houndsmen and how they want to protect their sport.
Second, I believe limited entry is the best way to go, we have limited entry in all of our other species and they seem to be thriving. Somehow I doubt their are a shortage of animals harvested in these units, and that won't be different for cats.
Finally, and I know I am jumping in with both feet, but the outfitters in this state(at least a small group) have decided that it is the States job to provide them with a living, and with the easiest living possible. They somehow believe that the rules and regs shoud be to benefit them, not the general public, not the animals. We need only look at the Northern Goose Zone as an example, the public wanted a rest period in Oct. during the deer hunt so as to extend the goose season further into Jan., a small group of outfitters were very oppossed because their water was still open in Oct. and not Jan. Apparently the guys who pay them prefer to hunt when it is warm and accessible by boat(easy). One outfitter went so far as to explain how his revenue flow would be affected. What an eye opener for those their as to how outfitters view the animals they persue, they had no concern for the birds, they simply had a cost analysis breakdown as to how what the public wanted would "hurt" buisness. So, despite what the public, and RAC wanted, their is a northern goose zone which amazingly encompases all of the clubs who whined. The point is, it is the outfitters job to find buisness, which means that they may actually have to bid out their services to those with a tag. When I drew a LE elk tag last year I had 3 outfitters contact me to offer their service, I am DIY so I passed, but these guys were actually WORKING. You may have to actually compete with other outfitters for buisness, you see, you want to claim your buisness men and not paid assasins, then like every other buisness on earth, you have to compete for clients which means competitive pricing and customer service, not crying to the government for special treatment!
 
The lion population can and has been adequately protected since they were given game status by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service back in 1972. Harvest objective units, if managed correctly, remove the necessary animals from the field and protect the base population with limited impact. If Utah's biologist want to protect harvest units further they can and could implement a female sub-quota that would further assure the protection of that population, but limited-entry (in NO way) has no greater protection level than anything harvest objective does. What limited-entry hunting does do is re-distribute the harvest from a competitive sport to a closed system where lucky people who drew a tag pushes out the hardened, tough hunters that have earned their way..........

As far as limited-entry providing us with a "thriving population" is only a matter of perception. Throughout much of the eighties we had a thriving deer population in the Book Cliffs, and I packed in and hunted that herd every single year. Several of those years we were able to hunt all three seasons and had two deer tags. I found plenty of large bucks to chase with my bow in those days, then came the idea of cornering the market, limited-entry and rich man hunting to the places I loved. I fought every battle on these issues and lost them to big money interest, DWR and SFW............

The places I loved to hunt (the roadless area of the Book Cliffs) is now closed to me and I haven't been out there since 1992, or whatever year they closed, nor have I purchased a deer tag. I do drive out there from time to time and I just don't see this "thriving population of mule deer" that you speak of. I do realize what the Book Cliffs was to me and what I have lost. Nowdays I run lions and bears and stay away from the other sports. Most of the game I catch gets photographed and turned loose, but some die. However, neither of those populations were or will ever be in danger because of me........

Ike
 
Don Peay, I've never known you to be quiet about something you believed in. What's wrong, cat got your tongue; or something else.
 
fellas,

slow down a little.

i haven't been on MM for a long time.

send me an email if you have a question.

off to hunt elk with a friend - for those who want to justify my time, this guy donated $200,000 to SFW this year, got NOTHING, nada for it, just likes what we are doing for all the wildlife and sportsmen. Thats pretty good for the organization, spend a few days with a guy - who buys his own permits, donated $200,000 to the cause.

coming home late last night, called some SFW members to make sure they would be at the RAC meetings next week so we can transplatn 40 MORE bison into the book cliffs with the DWR this winter.

a guy told me about this post.

when i get back tonight, i will answer the other question on the sheep hunt, and what we are doing for sheep conservaiotn and sheep hunters as well. should be pretty exciting for all sheep hunters

don
 
Lloyd,

SFW has a board of directors - about 19 guys who meet once every 45 days or so.

The SFW Board voted to support the cougar recommendation of having split seasons as recommended by the DWR.

This way, hunters get a chance at a more quality hunt - a certain number of permits issued for a couple of months, no pressure to hurry and just take a lion for those who draw the permits. Quality hunting is part of the SFW mission.

the hunts then open up so the desired harvest is obtained.

This strategy might not make complete sense for teh San Juan, the Henry mts. etc as those units are so remote, not a lot of hunters. those units could be looked into for next year.

Many houndsmen like this strategy, many don't. The SFW Board does its best to listen to teh local memmbers, and then make good decisions.

As far as the sheep hunts go, SFW has launched a new effort to get more done for wild sheep conservation and sheep hunters.

There will be 15 sheep hunts in drawings at the Expo in SLC in 2010. Some are for those who have only taken ONE sheep, or two sheep, etc. The money for the hunts comes from generous donors who want to see good things for sheep and sheep conservation. Not a bad deal to win a $20,000 sheep hunt for a $10 application fee.

If you are interested, email me at [email protected] with your mailing address, and i will get the full details in the mail to who ever wants.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-22-09 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]>
>This way, hunters get a chance
>at a more quality hunt
>- a certain number of
>permits issued for a couple
>of months, no pressure to
>hurry and just take a
>lion for those who draw
>the permits. Quality hunting
>is part of the SFW
>mission.
>
>the hunts then open up so
>the desired harvest is obtained.
>
>

Don,

In my opinion, I've had quality lion hunting ever since those sheep were brought in Don. As you well know, people like me would never have had yearlong hunting on lions without those curly horned critters, so thanks to you and the guys at SFW for bringing those sheep to my corner of the state.

A good buddy of mine always said, "if you find something you like in wildlife then get all of it you can stand because somebody will come and take it away from you." And he was correct, as I've lost my deer hunting opportunity in the Book Cliffs to "quality hunting" and it now looks like lion hunting is on the way out for the same reasons. I did take my buddies advice though and have loaded hounds year round since it was legal, but those days will most likely be gone just like my deer hunt..........

That's the problem with people today, and that's they all feel this sense of entitlement that they should have a large tom lion coming because they drew a tag. What ever happened to working for what a person gets? This idea of removing others so "I" or "WE" can have a quality hunt really sickens me. But most interesting, I can't imagine how a state that vote over 75 percent Republican has such a liberal attitude when it comes to recreation--WOW!

Ike
 
Come on Don, quit beating around the bush and answer my questions. Why did SFW send board members to alaska to hunt stone sheep and moose and pay for there hunts. My understanding of SFW is that it is a non profit, volunteer organization to enhance wildlife in Utah. What does going to Alaska have anything to do with that. It looks to me that the volunteer part just went out the window with those hunts.I really apprecated the volunteer work the board members have done, but now that has changed for me since personal gain is involved. I will not be renewing my membership next year. Answer my other question. What happens to the land that the SFW bought if SFW no longer. Who will that land belong to.
 
I told you before how the hunt worked. SFW had nothing to do with it. STOP TELLIN LIES. The only people that SFW has sent hunting is the hunts for heros soldiers. And I'm sure they have earned it. John Bair
 
Bull S... board members from SFW went to alaska hunting stone sheep and moose so quit lying your self and tell the truth.
 
I am not letting this go until I get some real answers, so answer my questions.
 
If any board member has gone on a stone or moose hunt then they have paid for it their self. that is the facts. We are not a hunting club that sends members hunting on the company dime. believe what you want, but that is the facts. The other guy that was mentioned early on in the post was already explained. SFW had nothin to do with his hunt. .......John Bair
 
There you go again #10. You are not telling the truth. SFW drew board member names in a meeting to see who went on them hunts. THESE ARE THE FACTS, So how can you set there and say SFW had nothing to with any of that. Explain will you. One more thing, you havent answered my other question. ANSWER PLEASE.
 
I guess you have nothin better to do than tell b.s. lies. I run the meetings and no such meeting has ever taken place. If you ever want to talk about SFW and what we do for wildlife and sportsmen......801-472-0552. John Bair
 
Your just jealous and can't stand the thought of somebody else getting something you'll never have. YOUR RICH go by yourself one instead.
 
I want to talk about it here so every body can know. It sure is funny that what I am saying, came from the mouth of the guy that went up there, so I guess he is lying then. You still wont answer my guestion about the land issue. (How many more times do I have to ask.) What is there to be jealous of, it only takes money. Yes I can buy a hunt up there if I want, But it would be nice if some one else paid for it.
 
Dude: why do you care what SFW does for there volunteers. If this story is true then why don't you post the proof like the name of this BM and if he is so open to telling you about it and you come on an open forum and blab your mouth then he shouldn't care that you use his name. Right? If it isn't true then you are making yourself look like a fool. The fact is none of us really knows what is going on and all the facts surrounding it. But sounds like it is a classic he said she said.
 
drymountain-

I certainly have my fair share of concerns regarding SFW, and I have openly expressed those concerns over the years. Unfortunately, SFW is not always open and transparent with information. On this issue, however, it seems unfair to come on here and make unfounded and unsupported claims. If somebody told you that SFW was using donated funds to buy high priced hunts for its volunteers then stand up and tell us the name of the individual who shared this information with you. I for one would like to hear about it. However, it accomplishes nothing to make the claim that some anonymous person told you something without providing any support for your claim. If something improper or wrong is going on then stand up and disclose it. Otherwise, move on.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-09 AT 06:00PM (MST)[p]
Dry and all fellow sportsmen,

yesterday, 18 of us delivered an 8 fot by 10 foot sign to Chances Phelps parents in Dubois Wyoming. HBO made an award wining movie about bringing Chances body home to Dubois, called Taking Chance. I recommend a view to all.

The sign was found in Ramadi Iraq on a baseball field for the Iraqi kids, in honor of Chance who was a tremendous athlete.

Marine Sargent Darrell Carver was a recipient of the SFW Hunts for Heros program - funded 100% by high net worth individuals who make large donations for the program - no chapter member money inolved in this, or many other items explained below, that you question.

Carver's dream hunt was to hunt a Wyoming Mule Deer. It just so happened his hunt was in Dubois, and he meet Chances parents. On his second tour of duty to Iraq, Carver found this sign and wanted to get it to Chances mom. It took a lot of effort to get that sign from Ramadi, to Camp Pendleton, then to Utah, then to Dubois. The final leg was an 18 hour day yesterday, but we hoped to teach a bunch of 15 year old boys some valuable life lessons.

On Chances Tombstone there is a big trophy bull elk, and his mother keeps a shed horn on top. She told us, if Chance were here today, he would be out hunting. His step dad told the 14 high school kids who went with us, "Chance gave his life so you can enjoy the freedoms we all love, make the most of everday, and help somebody everyday if you can."

It was a special day for these kids, and many Marines who wanted Chances mom to have that sign. It was a long ways from Ramadi to Dubois, but the sign is now with Chances Family, a small token for a HUGE sacrifice.

If anyone wants to see the pictures email me, i can email them to you all and you can post them. I am a Utard on this computer !

This trip was made possible because Karl Malone allowed us to Use his private Jet free of charge.

Now to address TWO specific questions.

Karl Malone and I have launched a new venture callled the Full Curl Society - a group to do great things for wild sheep and for sheep hunters.

Thanks to Karl's $200,000 donation and otehrs, there will be 15 sheep hunts available in drawings at teh Expo in SLC. Just one example, there will be 2 - two $20,000 Dall sheep hunts in a drawing for a $10 application fee.

AS part of the 15 hunts, there will be some otehr special drawings for people who have never killed a sheep, for those who have killed just one sheep, for those who have killed two sheep and for those who have killed 3 sheep, and just need one more to take their fourth.

An exciting thing for sheep hunters - we think lots of them will come and be invovled in sheep conservatoin and keep their dream of sheep hunting.

Over the years, Karl has probably donated over $1 Million to buy hunts for people, particularly those who are a little down on their luck. YOu don't know about most of them, Karl would just as soon that nobody knew, but since you are DEMANDING answers, you get it.

Last year while down at Karl's ranch, Karl said, "Don, pick a guy who has done a lot for helping SFW, i want to do something to make his day." I thought of hundred of great volanteer sportsmen, and frankly clicked of about 15 names who had quietly, privately been the benefactors of Karl's generosity.

I settled on the name of a guy who has helped SFW from Day ONE. He volanteers a lot in a lot of ways. Karl asked, "what does he like to hunt?" I told him he likes to hunt them all, just like us, but he needed just a Stone sheep to finish his Full Curl - you can read about Karl's Full Curl adventure in this months issue of Trophy Hunter.

Karl said great, get him on the phone, and i did. To My surprise Karl said to this guy, "hey, out at the Expo in the spring i want you to go and pick your favorite Stone sheep outfititer, you are going to fullfill a dream of yours, i am going to buy you a Stone sheep hunt.

words can't explain the joy felt by two fellow hunters, and frankly i cried a bit as this great volanteer sportsmen booked his dream hunt, all made possible by one very genreous man.

Karl also bought a sheep hunt for Navy Seal Marcus Luttrell. Marcus could not go this year for some personal reasons that will remain personal. Hopefully next year.

So, NOT ONE DIME of SFW member money went into this great, charitable act from one sportsmen to another.

What you also don't know is that when i sold my enginerring consulting business some 15 years ago, i didn't spend any of the money, i invested it and that amount has grown. Over the years we have used the interest income to help 14 other guys go on their dream sheep hunts to. I could by sheep hunts for myself every year, but i frankly get more of a kick of helping other guys get a hunt, and go enjoy it with them.

Karl and i have found 9 otehr guys who are going to donated $10,000 a year to help sheep hunters dreams come true, which in the end helps sheep conservation. WE are looking for 11 more guys, if you know anyone who wants to step up, let me know.

Lots of guys are going to get dream hunts in the future.

Case closed ?

Now regarding the SFW lands.

You are worried about what might happen in the future. We worry everyday about how to protect your interest for the future.

Just tuesday, SFW Presdient Byron Bateman was at an auction to try and buy 160 acres right in the heart of a new 6,000 acre piece of winter range the DWR and MDF bought. SFW was the only group there, we don't have $100,000 grand extra sitting around, but Byron is working with the bank to get that land bought and protected for wildlfie and sportsmen for generations.

Also, right now we are stressing about how to find $1 Million to buy another 149 acres next to the 440 acres SFW owns in the foothills of Kamas, key elk and deer winter range for the Uintas elk and deer herd. We don't have an extra million, but we are working on a way to do get it done, so 140 condos won't be built on this property.

Most of the property SFW owns has a permanent easement on it that says it will never be developed. SFW kept a 10 acre parcel out of the 440 acres in Kamas to sell one day. Frankly, if we could find a buyer for $1 Million we would probably sell 10 acres for one house, which would allow SFW to protect 140 more acres, good business decision ?

WE loose 10 acres to one house, with some fairly restrictive covenants on the 10 acres, in order to save in the end 600 acres plus or minus, that frankly keeps wildlife on hundreds of thousands of acres of public land during the hunting season.

If Dry wants to find $1 Million, we won't have to consider selling 10 acres. that would solve a lot of problems and only leave us 43 projects sportsmen want done, NOW !

So, the few paragraphs should explain what SFW does with the few thousand acres SFW owns, now and in the future. the VAST majority of it will be set aside forever, for wildlfie. A few acres might be sold off, and use the money to buy some more key wildlife lands, pay property taxes, etc.

One little other side note, SFW owns 140 acres in Logan, critical deer and elk winter range, and provides acess to large blocks of public lands. The land was in green belt for many years. A few small minded, jealous SFW hatters made a big stink with the local county and now SFW has to pay $5,000 a year in property taxes, not $150 like the landowner who owned it for 80 years. so, Dry, thanks to some jealous people, $5,000 dollars of members money now goes to pay taxes, not $150.

As far as SFW going away, it is my goal and current efforts to make sure that never happens. SFW is working on having a $100 Million Endowment Fund so that every year SFW has lots of interest income to keep a good staff, fund tranplants, buy property, improve habitat on public lands, and make hunting and fishing better for everyone, even for the idiots who hate us.

The owners of Strawberry bay Marina set up a stand at their store incouraging sportsmen to join SFW. some of the fisherman groups always hammer SFW for petty reasons. So, when the DWR needed $10,000 to keep the rainbow fingerlings a little longer in the hatcheries so the Cuththroat trout don't eat them, SFW came up with $7,500, all the OTHER fishing groups came up with $2,500, yet they trash SFW all day long.

The owners of Strawberry said this little act has GREATLY increased the number of LARGE world famous fat 3 pound Strawberry rainbows are coming in.

Lots of fisherman have joined SFW lately.

There is a post about Bison.

The Wayne County Commission only wanted 200 Bison on the Henry Mountains. The old plan called for 260. For the Bison and the Deer, SFW invested lots of time and money, and the mountain can now have 320 Bison, we will keep working to get the habitat and arguments with cattle owners so hopefully there can be 400 Bison on the Henry Mts.

In the short term, SFW members went to RAC meetings, and there are TWO more next week, to allow the DWR to put 30 to 40 more cow and calf Bison in teh Book Cliffs. 30 were put there last winter, it would be nice to get 30 or 40 more and get that herd up to 450 in the Book Cliffs, which would annually provide about 100 NEW Bison permits.

If you want to help wildlife, go to the RAC meetings next week in Vernal and Green River.

Now, i can't resist to respond to Ike, who said basically, rape, plunder and pilage today, the hell with tomorrow someone will take it from you, and then says the Book Cliffs was taken from him.

nothing could be further from teh truth.

The book cliffs deer herd began to decline in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We killed some MONSTER bucks out there. I hunted there every year. Failure by sportsmen to fight for Habitat and predator control, and drought caused the deer population to decline. We should have cut back hunting tags for a while and fixed teh habitat, but we all continued to shoot bucks and about 1995, there were only 4 bucks per 100 does, 35 fawns per 100 does, and 1,000 elk.

The deer hunt was closed, so few deer, so few bucks.

The DWR, SFW, RMEF, MDF and others have spent 15 yars and millions of dollars to rebuild teh book cliffs deer herd, it wasn't taken Ike, it was ruined by all of US.

today, there are 6,500 elk, not 1,000, there are thousands of deer and lots of great bucks for those who draw the 500 or so permits, 1,000 or so Bighorn sheep, wild turkey, Bison, cougar and bear. A sportsmen's paradise for the future. The Book Cliffs wildlife story has been rebuilt and made better than ever, and hopefully the Ikes of the world won't be allowed to pillage it and then move on to teh next place.

TWO questions asked, two answered, and a few more thoughts.

SFW is totally transparent for those who want to take the time and learn the whole story. We have learned some people just want to pick a fight and no matter how many questions get answered, they have some more. Don't have time for that.

Dry, you asked for some answers, you got them straight from the horses mouth. Hopefully you will see there are some very genreous people within the SFW organization, and SFW gets a lot done for wildlife.
 
I guess that answered some questions.

Don
Here One thing SFW can do that would help deer and elk State wide and that is to allow NR hunters to shoot coyotes during the deer and elk season.If you could get that past the DWR. It would have to save alot of fawns and calfs over a few years.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-09 AT 06:01PM (MST)[p]If you go back a little further Don, and state a few more of the facts about the Book Cliffs, you or anybody else would see that what happened to the Book Cliffs happened a long time before the mid-90s.

In the mid-80s, DWR came before the public and pushed really hard to move the Book Cliffs over into limited-entry hunting so it would be like the Great Paunsaugunt. The biologists and game managers in this region just couldn't stand the thought of the southern boys having a trophy unit and us being left out, but the local hunters fought them off and the Book Cliffs was moved into a three-point unit.

A few years passed and DWR found two points and spikes killed and left and they begin their push again for a trophy unit. This time they were a little wiser and opened the unit back up to any buck. Well, we all know that the public slaughtered the young bucks for the next couple years and DWR utilized their data (data which they gained from their management strategies) to close the Book Cliffs because there wasn't any bucks left?

I was on the RAC then, and the Books were closed for two years. Well, two years passed and again DWR and the supporters of limit-entry hunting voted to keep the Books Closed another year to grow up some bucks worth saving. Hell sakes, I can remember hunters crying at the RAC meeting that the hunt wasn't going to be fair to the deer after the closure--I guess the answer to that comment was leave the Books shut down for a viewing area huh?

There were lots of ways to handle deer hunting in this state, every other year hunting, point restrictions, just a ton of things we could have done rather than giving the state control of harvest. So I'[ll say again, yes, the Book Cliff's deer herd was stolen from people like me and taken by DWR and the people who support quality hunting which is you and your group Don......

I was there when the whole went down buddy, from beginning to end, on the inside as a sportsmen's rep. The difference was I looked after the hunting tradition and you looked after the quality experience.........

So yes I can say stolen, taken, or plan ole pushed out if I want and be justified in every way.............

Funny thing I was asked a year or so back if I would consider serving on the RAC again to which I quickly answered NO!

ike
 
Don, it's great to see you in a question-answering mood. I've got one, if you have a couple of minutes.

Has any money raised by UT SFW or any other group in UT gone to fund the predator control program in unit 16 in Alaska?
 
Ike,

we agree then, the Book Cliffs went to hell. It wasn't taken from anybody, it was ruined by all of us, and we failed to be proactive to protect it.

You and i both know sportsmen quit hunting the Book Cliffs, because there was very little, if anything to hunt.

How it got opened back up, and what was the right way, and the right strategy is then subject for debate. There were a lot of options, you obviously didn't like the one picked.


My dad told me to always invest for the future and leave some for seed. Your buddy told you rape, plunder and pillage.

there is a BIG difference in those strategies.
 
NO, absolutely NONE, no money from Utah groups that i know of - SFW, Utah FNAWS went to Alaska.

Each SFW state operates pretty much independently. They are their OWN seperate legal organization, seperate board.

Alaska sportsmen controls Alaska. They raise their own money, and yes they have invested a lot of money to rebuild Moose populations, and the efforts are working.

I have spent a few days, probably 4 to be exact in Alaska this year, helping those guys figure out to fix things up there.

thanks for your questions, glad to answer other honest questions.

don
 
gator,

i love your saying, the extra mile.

I always use the road less traveled version, same thing, different way of saying it.

help me on the NR Coyote thing. There is NO license required to hunt or kill coyotes. the season is open 24/7/365. Non residents can shoot them all day long as long as they are hunting elk and deer i guess.

I am talking at loud a bit here.

I believe there is a law that closes coyote hunting during the big game rifle seasons for people who don't have a license. I think it was put in becasue somee "coyote hunters" were poaching, during the big game season.

Could have a long debate about punishing all because of a few not heads.

At any rate, non residents and residents can shoot coyotes during the season, if they have elk or deer license.

Other than that, Non residents and residents -outside of deer and elk season - can come and shoot coyotes all year long.

anybody else have better or more accurate info on this.

Gator, is that what you were wondering about ?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-09 AT 07:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-09 AT 07:07?PM (MST)

>Ike,
>
>we agree then, the Book Cliffs
>went to hell. It
>wasn't taken from anybody, it
>was ruined by all of
>us, and we failed to
>be proactive to protect it.
>
>
>You and i both know sportsmen
>quit hunting the Book Cliffs,
>because there was very little,
>if anything to hunt.
>
>How it got opened back up,
>and what was the right
>way, and the right strategy
>is then subject for debate.
> There were a lot
>of options, you obviously didn't
>like the one picked.
>
>
>My dad told me to always
>invest for the future and
>leave some for seed.
>Your buddy told you rape,
>plunder and pillage.
>
>there is a BIG difference in
>those strategies.

You and I agree on very few things Don, as your vote always went in the box of for quality and trophy hunting, whereas mine always follow the tradition of hunting. I remember ##### Carter tried like hell to get rid of hunters, or at least as many as he could. Funny thing was he was never able to get rid of a single one, as it took you and SFW to cap deer hunter at 97,000. I'll bet ol' ##### probably wrote you a thank you letter didn't he?

And just who in the hell is my buddy? So are you saying I believe in rape, plunder and pillage? Cause if you are ol' Ike can get nasty as well Don.............

I fought for years to keep hunters in the field, and my ideas still follow that with harvest objective rather than limited-entry quality hunting like you want. And that's the difference I see between the path you took and the one I took, my bid was always opportunity for the hunters and yours was a bid for the people who sponsored you........

And I never quit hunting the Book Cliffs until DWR closed it for deer. You see, some of us were more interesting in hunting than killing trophy animals. I haven't bought a tag since the Books were closed and gave up elk hunting not long after that, but I hunt more now than I ever have before--it's just that I haven't killed anything in recent times!

ike
 
Don,
Going back to your response to me, that was a very politically correct response; however, it did not touch any of the three questions that I asked you. But let me respond to your post:
You say the hunters get a chance for a more quality hunt; I know of at least five toms that were harvested this year that will score 14 1/2 inches. I don't believe that it is quality they are after, it's quantity. And you and I both know that the state of Utah can't provide the quantity of lions that some people want and maintain the deer population. Who are the local members that you are referring to? The Utah Federation of Houndsmen was developed to fight SFW and they did not only beat SFW, but got SFW to join up with them, abandoning the majority of the most loyal members. Don, you said you could fix the San Juan units next year--this is a twelve-year plan.

Ike--you brang up a great point. I have talked to lots of people, most of which are SFW members, and most of them are totally surprised that SFW supported this cougar management plan. I asked them why they are not fighting it; the majority of them responded that since the deer population is up, they don't feel comfortable fighting the cougar plans.

I can understand why the the Utah Federation of Houndsmen pushed what they wanted. I can see where SFW was asked by two loyal leaders to support this plan and the board voted for it. Do I agree with it? No. I think that when you asked people to join SFW 10+ years ago until now, with predator management as part of your platform, to just turn it around, it should have been more of a discussion between ALL of the members. What I don't understand is why the Division of Wildlife would push this 12-year plan through. As of right now, they ought to be patting themselves on the back--the deer numbers are up, the elk are fantastic, we're moving buffalo to the Book Cliffs, hunting sheep and goats. Why would they want to even risk going back to the mid-90s when the RAC meetings were hostile? People were angry with the DWR; when you went to a lion RAC meeting, there would be a hundred + people there, 80 of which wanted every lion dead by the next day. Why would they want to even risk going back to that when the Division says the lion population is stable with the current methods of harvest objective.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
As a non-resident, I certainly don't know squat about the Cougar plan being discussed here. I was, however, surprised by the references to an increasing mule deer herd in Utah. That was not my recollection of the facts, so I checked.

On page 19 of the current Mule Deer Plan for Utah, there is a chart showing mule deer population estimates for the period 1992-2007. That chart shows that between 1996 and 2007, the population has ranged from a low of 265,000 to ha high of 330,000. The 2007 total was actually down around 20,000 deer.

Given the amount of money that Utah has spent on predator control and habitat projects (at least according to Don and SFW, can't find any record of actual expenditures anywhere), this is NOT a success story. I believe the management objective is somewhere around 430,000 (going by memory here, so could be wrong), If that is the objective, Utah is running 63% to 76% of management objective over the past 11 years, hardly a reason to celebrate.

Scoutdog
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-09 AT 07:07AM (MST)[p]Didn't explain it very well, The problem is AFTER you have tagged out to be able to setup and just call coyotes. The Game wardens we have talked to said we can't do it because our tags are done and we shouldn't be carring rifles. The few deer that do get poached by some dickweed would be off-set with the hundreds that could be saved with a guy being able to still hunt after the tagging of his deer or elk. You see guys in camp doing nothing after their kill because they can't go out with a rifle to hunt coyotes.

Now I believe that the law says you can do this year around But until all Game warden are on the same page you Can't with out getting a ticket or worse.

I'm saying if you can get this put in the regs in Big Bold print so everyone knows what to do after the first hunt is over you will have a huge army of coyote hunters every year. IMO

Thanks for taking the time to help.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Regarding the discussion that been brought up about hunter opportunity vs. trophy hunting and limited harvest. I'm not a very bright guy, I've been told that by lots of folks over the years but I know a few things to be true.

Prior to the cap on deer permits in 1993 our mule buck doe ratios were as low as 2 buck per 100 doe in some areas of the State. Brought about by over hunter harvest. The only thing I know of that causes out of balance male to female ratios is hunting pressure. I know for a fact that low buck doe ratios relate directly to low fawn survival. Low fawn survival reduces hunter success ratios and low hunter success ratios produces low hunter recruitment and low hunter recruitment leads to anti-hunter strength.

We know what anti-hunter strength leads to.

I'm one of the folks who lobbied the Wildlife Board and the DWR (before SFW was born in 1993) to allow hunter opportunity while reducing buck harvest in order to bring buck doe ratios back to a healthy ratio. In spite of what some would tell you, that is entirely what the three point or better effort in South Central Utah was about in the last 1980s and early 1990s. Those of us that pushed that regulation through the Big Game Board were not interest in trophy hunting, we were attempting to allow the same number of hunters to go afield every year at the same time limiting their harvest of the buck population. On the three point or better units, everyone still got to go hunting, dad, mom, uncle bill, grandpa moses, and all the grandkids, just like they'd always done but they couldn't kill a buck unless he was had at least three points on one side. This exploded the buck doe ratio in just one year. In fact, by year two there were nearly as many three and four point bucks as here had been yearling bucks the year before we had antler restrictions. The harvest ratio on the three point or better units increased every year after year one. Yes, we had to tolerate some illegal kill of younger bucks, just like we do with the illegal kill of a few does and spike bucks with antlers under 4 inches every year now. Yes, what few older bucks we had during the first year or two got greater pressure from hunters staying out longer to find a legal buck but after the second year we had hundreds of bucks on these units that were three and four points so the pressure came off the older class of deer after the second year. By the time we got to five years we had a lot more five-year-old bucks than we do on these units now, but only those of us that lived in South Central Utah through that period of time believe that, but it is in fact true.

Antler restriction was killed and a large concrete block of misinformation was chained to it before it was thrown over board and that sucker is never coming back to Utah in our live time. It is truly amazing how effective the DWR was at crushing the concept but it is what it is.

So what is the point of the diatribe? It's this. If you want healthy deer herds, with surplus to afford sport hunting, you can do it one of two ways, reduce harvest of bucks (while you manage the total population so it doesn't over populate and starve to death) by limiting the number of hunters or limit the number of bucks the hunters can harvest. In as much as there is no way other than antler restriction that can guarantee reduce harvest will you still allow everyone to hunt, and that IS NOT ever going to see the light of day again in Utah, the only other choice left is to limit hunter days afield, either shorten the hunting period or limiting the number of hunters that can go. That's it. There are no other options.

So, while I to disagreed with SFW and Don when they proposed caping hunters, what else can he do? Capping hunters is the only option left if you want to preserve the opportunity to hunt deer at all. If we'd had continued down the road we were taking prior to 1993 and the hunter cap we would have killed off so much of the deer herd hunters would have stopped hunting on their own, the fact is thousand of sportsmen were already hanging up their guns prior to 1993 because the experience of deer hunting had become so disgusting to them, they just quit. We had terrible buck doe ratios, over crowding on the units, and as Mike Leavitt learned from his Tuesday radio family home evening chats, all anyone in the State wanted to talk about was how bad the deer herds were.

What else was Don and SWF supposed to do? What was anyone supposed to do? Just continuing to ignore the problem wasn?t going to fix it. Don did the only thing anyone could do. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now but if your not going to limit harvest how in the world are you going to keep us from ruining the entire deer population?

Like I've said before, if you destroy SFW and Don Peay, kiss an organized sportsmen?s influence in Utah good-bye. There is no other game in town. It may not be what you want or what you believe is the prefect solution but I haven't seen anyone else or any other entity in Utah doing anything better or for that matter anything at all. I see groups fighting for expanded opportunity but whose fighting for larger and healthier deer herds?

So I guess my thoughts are, go ahead and attack Don and discourage him if you want but the bottom-line is; without SFW and Don Peay the significant influence sportsmen have with the DWR and the Utah Legislature is gone and that most likely means the decline of future of hunting opportunity in Utah.

So far as I'm concerned, it takes a 500 pound gorilla to deal with the antis, the commies, the do good-ers, the do bad-ers, misinformed, and the uninformed. Most gorillas I've encountered aren't all that lovable, most times they don't smell so good and some times they've been setting in gorilla poop but when you need a wall to come down it's sure nice to have one around. Then one gorilla dies another gorilla will take his place and my belief is what ever gorilla takes over if Don takes his ball and goes home won't be one we like at all, he won't be a hunter and he won't get on Monster Muley and try to justify every moment of every day and he won't give a rats back end what you or I think or do.

Of course I was wrong about antler restriction too, so what would I know.

DC
 
A few years ago there was no bigger critic of the SFW than me. You can ask Don, it would be a very very short list of people who were bigger or more vocal critics than me. I felt like the SFW was screwing me over and I was VOCAL about it.

I won't get into what changed my tune, but I will just say this. I realized over the last couple of years there are two kinds of sportsmen...

Those who sit around bitching, moaning and complaining on these web sites, or around the coffee shops. And those who are actually trying to DO something to fix the problems.

We won't always agree but I still tip my hat to Don and his guys for at least trying to DO SOMETHING instead of just whining and complaining. And like I said, I was the biggest whiner and complainer of all.

Win, lose or draw... at least at the end of the day Don and a bunch of others can go to sleep knowing they at least tried to do something to save our sport instead of just bitching.

Whether we always agree or not, I still admire the SFW dedicated few and all the hours they spend, when it would be much easier and probably much more rewarding to just spend that time at home with family or friends.

I sleep better at night knowing the 500 lb gorilla is out there standing between me and them and is at least willing to do something besides piss and moan all day about how bad things suck.

DC, your post about the 500 lb gorilla sums it up!! Perfect. Keep it up Don, like my dad told me once, "Don't let the bastards get you down!!" ;-) Keep knocking the walls down dude!!

I don't expect we'll always agree, but I don't care... The bigger picture is way more important than a few disagreements and I sleep better knowing you guys are out there on the front line!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-09 AT 03:04PM (MST)[p]>
>I'm one of the folks who
>lobbied the Wildlife Board and
>the DWR (before SFW was
>born in 1993) to allow
>hunter opportunity while reducing buck
>harvest in order to bring
>buck doe ratios back to
>a healthy ratio. In
>spite of what some would
>tell you, that is entirely
>what the three point or
>better effort in South Central
>Utah was about in the
>last 1980s and early 1990s.
> Those of us that
>pushed that regulation through the
>Big Game Board were not
>interest in trophy hunting, we
>were attempting to allow the
>same number of hunters to
>go afield every year at
>the same time limiting their
>harvest of the buck population.
> On the three point
>or better units, everyone still
>got to go hunting, dad,
>mom, uncle bill, grandpa moses,
>and all the grandkids, just
>like they'd always done but
>they couldn't kill a buck
>unless he was had at
>least three points on one
>side. This exploded the
>buck doe ratio in just
>one year. In fact,
>by year two there were
>nearly as many three and
>four point bucks as here
>had been yearling bucks the
>year before we had antler
>restrictions. The harvest ratio on
>the three point or better
>units increased every year after
>year one. Yes, we
>had to tolerate some illegal
>kill of younger bucks, just
>like we do with the
>illegal kill of a few
>does and spike bucks with
>antlers under 4 inches every
>year now. Yes, what
>few older bucks we had
>during the first year or
>two got greater pressure from
>hunters staying out longer to
>find a legal buck but
>after the second year we
>had hundreds of bucks on
>these units that were three
>and four points so the
>pressure came off the older
>class of deer after the
>second year. By the
>time we got to five
>years we had a lot
>more five-year-old bucks than we
>do on these units now,
>but only those of us
>that lived in South Central
>Utah through that period of
>time believe that, but it
>is in fact true.
>
>Antler restriction was killed and a
>large concrete block of misinformation
>was chained to it before
>it was thrown over board
>and that sucker is never
>coming back to Utah in
>our live time. It
>is truly amazing how effective
>the DWR was at crushing
>the concept but it is
>what it is.
>
DC



Well, I'm glad to hear that I wasn't the only one out there fighting to preserve the family hunting unit and the tradition of hunting DC. I'd also like to thank you for your comments on what the deer herd was like during the point restriction days before DWR and the Board crushed it with an "any buck" harvest.

I can remember spending my bowhunt in the roadless area of the Book Cliffs, and chasing groups of bucks with a dozen or more animals in them with several going up over thirty inches. The hunting was great, tons of bucks and no pressure at all where I hunted. As for buck to doe ratios, well I'd say they were better than the stuff I see on the ground today out there.

I also agree that this state will never go back to over the counter tags and point restrictions cause the managers hated it back then and would laugh at that type proposal now. But the record needed set straight rather than glossing over it like Don Peay and SFW created a winter wonder land for mule deer hunters, cause they didn't.

This post started off being about cornering the market on lion hunting for the next en years or so with split season hunting rather than harvest objective where the dog trainers and hunters have control of the harvest. Somehow it turned to rich men sending SFW leaders to Canada hunting stone sheep and mule deer, and that's too bad cause my interests are more centered around hounds. But the ideology behind the split season lion hunt is similar to what happened to deer hunters, so I guess that's OK.

And beating up on SFW and Don Peay isn't going to bring back the deer hunts we remember, nor will it protect the lion hunting opportunity that we have had. It was my fault to some degree to not get involve and see what SFW and the Big Game groups were up to before the Cougar proclamation was done. My bad on that! I did, however, speak to my local biologist who assured me that the units I hunt would stay the same and they have, but looking through the proclamation most of the other harvest units across the state were Cannibalized by the "quality experience boys" and I guess we'll have to live with that for now.......

And for the record I sat on the Northeastern RAC for seven years, fought all those battles and was up until 2:00 AM more nights than one. Therefore I figure I've earned the right to complain....................

And I do not support the new cougar management plan that showed up in this year's proclamation.

ike
 
Well Don, there you go, you got the great and famous HoundDawg on your side now. Hope it is worth it. Funny thing is both you and John Bair have admitted that putting these Units in split season makes no sense, yet John still voted to doing that in his RAC.

Ike, all units except the ones that are in predator management will go into split season or limited draw if they follow the plan. There is still a paragraph in there about the pursuit permits that I don't understand. It looks like they could be attacking the pursuit permits. Maybe somebody that knows can tell us.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Ike,

i think i finally figured out who you are, revealing the NE RAC not the SE.

And yes, you have earned your right to complain, and you have done a lot for conservation.

There are a lot of things SFW does i don't agree with, but there is a process we try to make good decisions, including coming on here, getting input, then my job is to take the SFW Board decisions and get it done, sometimes SFW wins, sometimes we loose.

Gator brings up an interesting calculations we have tried to make, if five deer get poached, yet 500 coytes get killed and you save 1,000 deer, make that change.

Personally, i haved lobbied hard for trying the 3 point or better hunt again. Hunters have changed a lot since 1985, better optics, more serious, used to spike only elk hunting, etc. It keeps opportunity, saves some bucks. Haven't given up, but still can't crack that nut - yet. I think they would work in 2010.

an interesting question would be where would Utah's deer herds be without the million acres of habitat completed and the predator control work. maybee Utah would be at 150,000 deer, not close to 300,000.

There was a major deer winter kill two years ago in utah, in spite of SFW, DWR and MDF feeding, and all the habitat work. sometimes, mother nature just wins!

Lumpy, as i understand it now, the San Juan stayed in straight harvest objective. The Blues went split season. so, what have you really lost ? Doesn't seem like much to me, you can still hunt the San Juan year round - till it closes, and you can hunt the Blues a good part of the year as well.

In the BIG PICTURE, SFW has helped to get a lot of really good things done.

Every year some sportsmen jump on the train, and some jump off, they get mad over a position on some local detail that didn't set just right with them.

and in the end, sportsmen jumping off the train slows things down for everyone.

Just like the NRA, i don't agree with everything they do, but each year i send them a couple hundred bucks, cause without them, we all know where we would be. there are 100,000 big game hunters now in Utah - Deloss is right, the last year of open permits sales the DWR could only sell 135,000 tags, not 200,000 plus. Lots of guys quit because hunting sucked !!

Of the 100,000 big game hunters about 10,000 are invovled.

If you don't like SFW join some other group.

But as Dawg said, bitching on the internet or in the local coffe shop does nothing, and that is what 90,000 hunters do every year. The reality is probably 80,000 of them think about the hunt 2 days before the hunt, complain during the hunt, ##### for two days after teh hunt, then forget about it for another year.

There has been a lot of good habitat work done, efforts to increase herds of elk, deer, bison, moose, goats, antelope, bighorn, desert bighorn, bear can't be denied. there are more than there were 20 years ago by far.

so, now start the fight who did what.

or maybee we can all just pick a good fight and win, like the wolf wars that still rage, and that battle is probably the most important for the west and all big game hunters and houndsemn. Yet, 1% of hunters are in the figtht against 24 anti hunting groups, someone please explain that one to me ?

don
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-09 AT 04:28PM (MST)[p]I have learned that just because I disagree with 10% of what an organization DOES, it does not make it necessarily bad, or better yet, offers an excuse not to join.

At times I get irritated with the NRA. However, I do appreciate
the fact that they fight for my rights as a gun owner and this
DOES out weigh the other minor irritations.

What I find ironic is that those who were so quick to bash Don
and call him out for "not quickly responding", could not even
acknowlege the fact that he got on this site and did clarify
the questions. All it did is cause them to complain and come
up with other reasons to discredit SFW.

Instead of finding these so called discrepencies in SFW why not
raise the question(s): What has SFW done for a starving deer herd in Rich County? What did SFW do to purchase winter range
for our Mule Deer herds? What has SFW done for our veterans?

Surely these deeds would out weigh them sending a member on a
sheep hunt (which Don already said they didn't); wouldn't it?

Unfortunately, too many sportsman would rather divide instead of unite. As was said earlier, start your own organization if you do not like what is out there. I would guess for all the naysayers, this would require too much work and dedication....
 
You and SFW have done a lot for sportsmen, and as you say some of it ran some hunters off and other things drew different hunters into the fold. Maybe I just don't get over things as easily as you Don, don't know. But I don't like being lied to or talked down to by anybody, as it's always been a turn off to me.

To my defense, I think about hunting every day of my life and load hounds year round. And I've never attempted to hide who I am as my name is all over the Internet. Personally I don't care if I ever kill another lion but I like that tag in my pocket and having the right to make that decision myself, and the plan that you supported on lion management was in conflict with that.

As long as my yearlong lion hunting is protected, I don't really care how the rest of you split up the big game harvest. But taking away the only thing left that I care about in wildlife (my hound pursuit) angers me......

Dennis Ingram
 
"Well Don, there you go, you got the great and famous HoundDawg on your side now." LOL Lloyd!!

Dang dude, is there anyway you could convince more people that I'm great and famous so I can cash in on it?

All I get at home is "Go mow the lawn and weed the garden ya worthless bum."

All I get at work is, "You need to get more done in less time ya lazy bum."

I go to the bar and all I get is, "Pay your bar tab current ya drunken bum."

I go to church and they tell me, "What are you doing here ya despicable bum?"

Could you please spread the word about the whole "great and famous" part cuz I don't think anyone in my world has gotten that memo!!! :) LOL.

Nice post, ya sarcastic bum!! ;-)
 
Thanks SFW for what you do. I just joined last year, I have been one of those on the sidelines hunters. I also do not agree with all things SFW does but they are trying. Thanks Don. With that said I have hunted archery for 25 years in Southern Utah and watched the Elk herds increase and the deer herds almost become extinct. I spent 3 weeks on the mountain this year and saw only 4-6 bucks that would be considered average shooters and hardly any young deer. What is SFW doing to help these herds. I agree with 3pt or better I also was there and watched the herds increase, close certain areas? We need help.
 
Don, for your information they split the San Juan Unit into two--one being the San Juan, the other the Elk Ridge. Putting the San Juan in the split season, this does nothing but hurt the hunters, and makes it harder to manage the lions. And yes, they kept the Elk Ridge in the harvest objective which down here creates more problems. That it not what this thread is about though, it is about the big picture on the best way to manage the lion--by the draw or quota, and I think you know the answer to that. The funny thing, Don, is nobody has got on here and explained how this plan will do a better job in managing the lions than the harvest objective. Nor does SFW care about the lost of hunting opportunity, or the loss of hunting revenue to the State. This, by the way could exceed over 500 thousand dollars a year. Shouldn?t the members have a say in such a major issue as a twelve-year plan, especially since it is a 180-degree turn from what SFW supported before? I talked to many members and none of them, with the exception of the board members, knew anything about this.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Nor did I Lloyd. But it hasn't been the first time that something was shoved down our throats either. I support and stand behind about everything you said against the split season hunt if it means anything, or if there is anything I can do to help.....

ike
 
Thanks, Ike. I too, have been a strong supporter of SFW in the past; I do realize they have done a lot of good for our wildlife. That's why I can't understand why they just endorse a twelve-year plan without input from their members, except maybe their board. The units that remain harvest objective will be hurt because the hunters who can't draw a tag in the draw units will be going to the harvest objective units to hunt their cougar. The hunters who draw the tags still have to deal with the pursuers. If the plan goes on without loopholes, any unit that isn't considered to be under "predator management" will be changed to a draw or split season.

We'll see you guys later, I'm heading to Logan to help get my seventh grandchild blessed, so I won't be here to bother you for a few days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-09 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]1203 Sales.

Nobody really knows for sure what is wrong with deer - west wide, not just Utah.

Some feel the boom of the deer in the 50s and 60s was a cumulative impact of long term grazing changes of the landscape and massive predator control.

If you go back to the 1920s, Mule deer were very scarce west wide. It seems like the natural tendency is to go back to very few deer, that is the natural course WITHOUT HUNDREDS Of MILLIONS Of dollars of investment and otehr work.

SFW and the DWR have spent a lot of time and effort to reverse the decline, i will details those in a minute.

However, some very good news. THE SFW Board really let me have it this spring, we had talked about a deer survival study for two years, nothing happened. Utah DWR Director Jim Karpowitz started his career doing a deer survival study for three years in teh Book Cliffs in teh mid 80s. So SFW had some meetings with the DWR.

So, Director Karpowitz and the DWR are going to do a NEW 3 to 4 year deer survival study on FIVE different Deer units in Utah starting teh spring of 2010 - units from north to south, east to west, and try and figure out why some herd units are responding well, and some are continuing to decline. James Gilson gets a shout out for this project happening, the CArbon Emery SFW chapter is really concerned about finging out what is going on, the Manti is in really tough shape for deer, and they pushed this issue, now it will happen. This will cost about $200,000 a year, funded mostly with Conservation permit funds.

It will be really interesting to see what the study shows. will keep yall posted as data comes in.

IN the meantime, here is all the efforts currently being done:

1. About 200,000 acres a year, at a cost of around $13 Million, of old dead Pinion Juniper and conifer are being tore up on federal lands in Utah, and reseeded with good elk and deer plants. This project took three years to get started - SFW started meeting on this, including meeting personally with President Bush to kick this thing off.

About $2 Million of teh funds a year come from conservation permit funds, SFW worked with teh Utah legislature to get anotehr $3 Million in sales tax money to go into the project, and another $6 to $8 million in matchign federal funds were obtained. It takes about 5 years for plants to reach maturity after the planting to be good for deeer. So, we dropped the habitat ball in the 60s and 70s, it caught up to us in the late 1990s, now we are workign on LARGE major projects to fix it, and the true results won't be realized till teh 2012- 2030 time frame, but at least it is going.

Lots of MM guys pound me and SFW for saying it takes time, well, in biological processes, it does. And as new SFW State orgs are formed i tell teh guys, if you don't have a 20 to 30 year vision and commitment, don't bother.

Great project, many said the enviros would never let a PJ get chained again.

2. Fencing Highways. As Utah's human population grows dramatically, teh increased traffic is having more and more effect on deer mortality. SFW is working to get major new fencing projects, and have been sucessful on I-15 north of Beaver - with Underpasses for elk and deer migration - Spanish fork canyon. A HUGE statewide issue, we work on these types of things everyday.

3.. SFW helped get $600,000 in annual coyote control efforts in Utah. There are some reports abut how many specifically targted coyotes are killed in key fawing areas, in teh early spring just before fawing. Also, local county bounty programs, and as Gator points out every hunter needs to shoot coyotes.

4. Keeping wolves out of Utah, a major effort. I just hunted deer in western Wyoming, saw 4 damn wolves, they are having a HUGE impact on everyting.

5. Lion control IN teh early 1990s, the lions got way out of balance with deer populations, lions have been reduced, not enough for some, to many for otehrs, but lion control is important. For teh houndsemn who are SFW hatters, just remember, SFW passed Prop. 5 which will protect your hounding days for another 100 years, the Colorado houndsmen don't hunt bears no more thanks to teh antis, and OR and WA houndsment don't hunt lions, and ID and MT houndsmen loose lots of dogs to wolves.

6. Buying winter range. this post details some efforts to continue to buy critical winter ranges to keep some areas for wildlfie.

7. Emergency feeding, when necessary. Even with feeding, mother monther nature wins.

8. Praying for good moisture.

9. Water developments, guzzler installation, drilling water wells, etc.

These are the major things SFW is helping get done for deer in Utah and the West.

Just recently, SFW worked to get a $1 million donation from Questar drilling to help start restoring deer habitat in Western Wyoming.

so, a few things, lots more work to be done.

sorry for taking so long, but it is a very complex, HUGE issue.

One last thing, DRY, you demanded ANSWERS, you got them, what say you ?
 
Don, thanks for responding you will continue to have my support. I hunt on fishlake above lost creek over to the Boobe Hole and am wondering what if any projects will be happening down their. I would love to be involved. The deer are gone, we need antler restrictions and or closures.
 
Don, SFW needs to work on getting the 48 hour trap check removed on coyotes. I know alot more trappers would target coyotes if this was removed.
 
Thanks Don for responding to the questions I had. I always thought that SFW in Utah was to help the wildlife in Utah. I am glad SFW funds were not used for that hunt. But it did not look good on SFW's part to try and deny they knew anything about that hunt when questions were asked. To me you should have told Karl that The reason SFW is here is for wildlife enhancment for Utah, and if karl wanted to donate to that cause then that would be great, but donating hunts to members is not what we are about. (That does not look good and can lead some people to jump to wild a-- conclusions like it did me.) The money he donated for them hunts could have been better spent for wildlife enhancment in Utah and benefit alot more hunters than just one or two. To me that is what SFW should be about. Karl can spend his money as he sees fit though, he earned it. SFW should stick to what they started out trying to do.(wildlife enhancmet for Utah). I agree with you that SFW has done a ton of great things for wildlife here in Utah, I never said any different, but maybe try and stick to that and not get involved in these other things. (It doesnt look good.) That is just my opinion though. For my second question though. I dont really feel you answered my question fully. I know you dont plan on SFW,s failure but sometimes things happen and if that does happen, I want to know that the lands are set up so that they dont go into private hands. (how does that work.)
 
Elk Ant. SFW made a run at that 48 hour trap law with the Trappers, and we lost at the RAC and board meetings - this year.

I have one more idea to try one more time, it would help on coyotes.

Dry, thanks for your response, and for your willingness to have some open dialog and give and take.

I will specifically try and answer your question on the land, and then will offer some ideas about how we can get more done for sportsmen and wildlife.

ON most of SFW owned lands, a permanent Conservation Easment (CE) has been placed on the Deeds of these lands that will remain attached to those lands forever. the CE sates that the lands will never be places for houses or commercial real estate, they will always be managed for open space and wildlife.

By doing this, these lands become essenitally worth less, who wants to buy them, keep them up, pay taxes, and then let the publics wildlfie live on them, you can't generate any money from these lands, they eat money, don't produce money.

Most of these lands are winter range areas. the wildlife is not on these lands during hunting season, they are on the public lands, so it is not like future boards could sell hunting permits on these lands either.

So, there would be no value or reason for future SFW Boards to ever sell these lands.

And as mentioned, over the next ten years we hope to have SFW in a position to have a HUGE bank account that will allow future generations of sportsmen to keep what we have built, and add more in the future. I have pretty much given my professional life to this effort as have others, and we know that without a strong organization and money, a lot of the good that has been done can be done away with, fast. So, if you dedicate your lifes work to someting, at a significant cost, you want to make sure the efforts are protected, and the opportunities will be around for many generations to come.

Does this answer your question on how SFW lands are protected ?

Now regarding the other issue, thanks for your opinion and consideratoins.

Now, i ask you to consider a few things.

SFW has and will continue to do good things for wildlife and sporsmen. that is the SFW mission. That is where the SFW members money goes.

A lot of the animosity on MM is about people with money seeming to get all the benefits and the working man doesn't. I understand that well, as that is exactly how my dad felt about life.

And, if you go back to 1994 when SFW started, it looked as if the only place to get a quality hunt was on a private ranch like Deseret or the Heaton ranch. IN fact, one legislator told me: "don, forget about the public lands, they can never be fixed, if you want to have quality hunting just stay in your engineering consulting business, make lots of money and buy hunts on private ranches."

SFW has worked hard to havef good hunting on the public land, for the public land sportsmen, and now instead of 1,000 really good trophy permits a year, there are over 4,500. the problem is there used to be only 20,000 applicants, now everybody wants a tag and ther are over 240,000 total applicants. That is a good problem to have, hunting isn't a dying sport, if there is a good product.

And, a lot of effort has gone into improving the quality of the hunt for 97,000 general season deer hunters, and turkey tags this next year will be available over the counter.

SFW is growing into other states, more and more sportsmen are geting on board.

SFW has learned a little about marketing over the last 15 to 20 years, the biggest problem with all teh groups is how to get sportsmen involved. The common response is: Why get involved, for $5 i got the same drawing odds as you do in the state draw."

In other words, i don't really want to help make the pie, i just want to eat it.

SFW and all the other groups try various ideas to get more sportsmen invovled. Doing good things for wildlfie and sportsmen just doesn't cut it alone.

We'll keep doing things for wildlife and sportsmen, but we have had some large donations from people who want us to use their money to help grow the organization, and it is nice to have some marketing money as well.

There are some really big JERKS who have money, they think they are better than everyone else, they think they can buy anything, and there money is more important than the volanteers and DWR folks who help make it all happen.

And, that is why i understand why some folks on MM really get mad at the "money" folks. I have had some doosey knock down drag outs with what Karl and I call members of the LSC - Lucky Sperm Club.

But, there are also some very generous folks with money, who grew up without much, and want to share the good life with others. so when they ask to help some folks out, i am NOT going to penalize those who have helped out. When a friend wants to help out a friend, most of my friends are involved in SFW, we spend the majority of our time with people in the group.

Over the years, SFW has recruited a lot of really good members from MM. That is why i spend some time on here explaining things. SFW has also lost some folks because of the lies and BS on here as well.

If Dry further wants to discuss this issue on teh hunts please send my an email at [email protected] and we can talk. It is a long and complicated issue, and i think with some further discussion it makes sense.
 
One last thing. I sit here every night and watch the news on TV. All I hear is how crooked the banks, insurance, financial companies,Acorn, and especially our own government,and the list goes on and on and added to each day. So when I heard about these things I thought O no hear we go again money and politics has changed the people here also. Next time I will call you or Email you personaly before jumping to conclusions. PS. Scr-- you bulldog.
 
Dry,

i completely understand why people are so frustrated.

there are a lot of frauds and very selfish people. Somehow, America is loosing its sense of the common good for the common folks, and people should be mad !!!!!!!

SFW is a great group of sportsmen, really remarkable in reality. We help make a lot of pie, invest a lot of time and money to make the pie, and some of our biggest critics get to eat it.

yet, if there isn't a community minded, sportsmen group fighting for the common good, we know what happens.

i apologize to IKE if he ever feels i have talked down to him, or if he feels he has been lied to. DI is a good dude.

The only way SFW has survived over 15 years now is to tell the truth, do good things, and treat people right. It doesn't mean SFW has made some hard decisions there is a right answer, but there are several right answers, but a positon in the end must be taken

Dry, thanks for caring to find out the whole truth, and asking questions.

Also, thanks for caring enough to find out the facts, and realizing what is going on is good - the money folks helping the folks without so much money, not via government takings, or crooked. SFW has some people with really big hearts, that want to help as many sportsmen as possible get to live their dreams to. I hope you get your dream hunt one day as well.

don
 
I dont need a dream hunt. I get mine every week from aug. to the end of nov. hunting with my dad. I dont need any thing more than that.
 
A word of advice from a dip s---. Find out the facts before spouting off, get a hold of the people that are involved before spilling the beans.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-09 AT 07:22PM (MST)[p]Don,

I was not directing that comment about being lied to or talked down to at you, just pointing out that those are two things that pushes me away from somebody. When you point out the Book Cliff's buck population is better now I assume that you're talking about the early nineties after DWR opened the any buck harvest. However, I do not believe that buck herd is larger or has better quality than it had in the early and mid eighties Don. Yet that was the plan we talked about recovering in the RAC meetings with DWR when they closed it down.

The talk about the health or quality of our deer herd, or their numbers for that matter, is subjective at best and can be argued from either side. I just didn't like taking the blame for rape, plunder and pillage of the Book Cliff's deer herd when I figure the management change from three-point to any buck was responsible for that--and I did not participate in the yearling slaughter when that happened.

My only issue is the passing of a twelve year plan on mountain lions that impacts people like me (the guys who train and feed those hounds) for a period of time that will retire me from the sport Don. Like previously stated, I did not know such a plan was in the make but knew people were working to corner the market on the lion harvest. It's partly my bad for not finding out who and what was going on. You saw my comments to Lloyd about being willing to do anything I can to protect the harvest objective hunts, and I'll be glad to help him attempt to roll back the clock on this issue in any way I can........

Ike
 
Dry: You need to find the facts out, but we have to find out the facts somehow, so sometimes you have to ask the hard questions. All questions of importance need to be asked; if there is nothing to hide, then it only benefits S.F.W. or any other organization for that matter. If there is nothing to hide, I would think that they would welcome their name out there showing the public what they are doing. That being said, Don has not even tried to answer any of the three questions that I started this thread with. The sad thing is that on the three threads that I have started about this plan, I have been called several names, John Bair told me that I need to grow a pair of ?.. but nobody has got on here and really defended the new plan. Both Don Peay and John Bair say that part of it does not make sense And there has been many opinions, but nothing that backs their opinions up. So again, if this is such a great plan, then somebody get on here and tell me how it will manage the lions, keep a good stable number of lions, and provide a quality hunt better than the quota system. In other words, show me where the States that border the great State of Utah and I are wrong. I have never been a person that just blindly follows and do not plan to start now. I still believe that this plan will ultimately hurt the lions but I guess we get to see what the next 12 years brings.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Ike, This plan could be amended, but it would take a whole lot of pushing and support from a lot of people.

Lloyd Nielson
Sunrise Outfitting
 
Split season versus quota- I'll take the split any day. I've been on quota units when the snow is good opening day. If finding guides with lions treed before it's even light, leaving cats in the tree overnight waiting for the next "lion hunter" to fly in, shooting any and every cat that climbs is your idea of a good hunt, I feel for you. I would rather see hunters leave the female track and look for a good tom without the fear the unit will close before a trophy track is located. Lloyd, you yourself said you "couldn't tell the hunter not to kill a female" when at the RAC. If you weren't doing this for money, you would have said NO! There are units that are "overharvested" every year under the quota system. There are guides who wait until the last second of the 48 hour check-in period when the numbers left get short so they can get that one more cat. I've ran hounds for 26 years, have killed one cat, and don't need to kill every tom that goes in the tree. I do this for the sport, to watch pups turn into dogs, and enjoy time with my family in the outdoors.
 
WOW,,,pumaguy it looks to me that you need to get better dogs if you have only killed one lion in 26 years...Ha..HA
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-09 AT 06:26AM (MST)[p]>Split season versus quota- I'll
>take the split any day.
> I've been on quota
>units when the snow is
>good opening day. If
>finding guides with lions treed
>before it's even light, leaving
>cats in the tree overnight
>waiting for the next "lion
>hunter" to fly in, shooting
>any and every cat that
>climbs is your idea of
>a good hunt, I feel
>for you.

You know as well as I that none of that stuff is legal pumaguy, therefore my comments would be get that person busted and out of the sport! I'll promise you one thing, if I find or catch a person doing any of that I'll do anything and everything in my power to get them busted, period! The thoughts behind punishing us all for what the poachers have done is similar to what the anit-gun nuts want to do to us all because of law breakers and murderers, and that's take our guns.

Like I said, the harvest could have been reduced on the Harvest Objective units and sub quotas put in place on females to limit the impact on the resource rather than using Obama type ideology management that was aimed at redirecting the harvest from the men who own the hounds to wannabes who never owned or fed one.

But redirecting the harvest from the hardened hunters to other sportsmen has already happened in about every other species so why not on the lion harvest, right? The fall bear hunt is a good example, as I see half a dozen trucks with hounddoggers lined up to hunt a single bear hunter so they can run their dogs. One guy on another board referred to them as "tag w h o r e s", which probably fit what has happened to our sport. Instead of having one hunter out there hunting for an animal we now have a family unit, or maybe just dozens of guys who would like to hunt if they had a tag. What's wrong with these people, a dozen peole following one around to watch a kill? Wow! Well I'll assure you of one thing pumaguy, and that is any of those wannbes lion killers want to shoot over my hounds they are gonna pay out their butts.

ike
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-09 AT 06:28AM (MST)[p]And by the way not one single lion died over my hounds during the past lion season, but I walked away from some good ones.......
 
I didn't say that I've only caught one in 26 years. I've caught plenty. I did say I've only killed one personally and don't believe the success comes from the kill. I've also contacted the DWR on instances of "canned" hunts, but can only report what I observe. I look at it this way, a dead lion doesn't leave a track to run the next day. I enjoy the pursuit and will always feel that way.
 
Hey Don did you get a chance to talk to Guy after his archery hunt? Next time you drive through Green River yell and we can have a fistfight over the lion hunting in Utah.
Mulehound.
 
I don't know what the answer is. Draw units they generally shutdown the pursuit only season for the kill season in that area right? Which sucks.

The problem with harvast objective, you get a million punks out cutting tracks all night long. Time I hit the mountain, there are trucks parked all down the road sitting on tracks. I don't have the ambition to get up as early as these guys do.

What would be wrong with having draw units, but at the same time, allow pursuit only? Thats all I care about, don't care to kill another lion. Just want to be able to turn my junk loose from time to time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-09 AT 09:56PM (MST)[p]To my knowledge, there has always been a pursuit season for lions in every unit where limited entry or harvest has gone on. Therefore, I don't believe hound pursuit is an issue on this topic. But then again I haven't read their twelve year plan that may well disallow such activities. My issue with Split season hunting over harvest objective is the redistribution on the harvest or lion resource from houndsmen who feed and train hounds to a group of people who neither train, own or feed hounds. Pushing a guy like me out (a guy who buys a tag every year) so somebody can have a "quality hunt." What in the heck does that mean? I have a quality hunt nearly every weekend..........

This plan looks like a compromise between DWR and houndsmen who want quality hunting, only it isn't. Most of these units appear to have limited entry during the three snow months which I guess provides the quality experience they want. However, it looks like DWr has left the options to leave those units open after the winter quality hunts to meet a quota if the Quality hunters don't getrdone. So in reality we aren't saving any lions just preventing people like me from hunting unit the harvest objective season opens, cause the good Lord knows I don't need snow to catch a lion..........

ike
 

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