Request to MDF on Behalf of SFW

[hossblur]

Troy,

First, you come in here like Tony and take heat, good on you.

Second, you keep talking about Ryan said this, Ryan said that, tell Ryan the website is monstermuleys.com and he can come in here and state what he said, and take the questions in this post. It seems simple enough. Troy if you go back and read through this post, what started it and your responses and actually read them I think you will see how shady SFW's position seems to the public. Personally I find it quite ammusing that Don can put together a power point presentation, then go and do a dog and pony show, all of which are time cosuming, yet it is too tough to do unit specific odds on 200 tags? If it is a manpower thing I will do it for free. See Troy the big picture of this is TRUST. SFW asks us to give them tags, give them money(ad moneys from the state and I would guess the city and county throw some in as well), back there fights, in short TRUST that they are doing what they claim to do. As Ronald Reagan said, "trust but verify". SFW sucks up a lot of money in this state, no one argues you do something for wildlife. I do not personally like your direction so I am not a member, however like many I put a bunch out every year at expo time. All we are asking is accountability in accounting, and odds. Your accountant has the accounting in electronic form which could easily be made available, and myself and others would gladly do odds, which means there would be no manpower cost associated with doing either, in short you could gain a lot of TRUST for very little effort. In my last post I said you should get a computer guy, you also need a PR guy, because any PR guy would point out that gaining TRUST for almost no effort or cost is a WINNER(to quote Charlie Sheen).

Troy this fight is a LOSER for SFW, there is no spin, blame game, etc. that will reverse the negative effect this has on SFW. THIS IS HORRIBLE PR, and it is for no reason other than the powers that be at SFW are OUT OF TOUCH, arrogant, or stupid. I don't believe Don, Byron, Ryan, or yourself are stupid, so I guess its arrogance or just out of touch.

Finally, I agree with Tony, and I bet 100% of the guys in here do as well that when you use the world significant ammount of money, over 50% is significant, we would argue on specifics, but over 50% seems significant to me.

 

[trueblu]

it seems to me that the reason for wanting to know the odds has little to do with the actual odds but more about knowing the total number of applicants so we can do the math and find out the dollar amount that these tags are bringing in. like its been said many times, people know the odds probably suck and would still apply regardless. sfw knows that and they also know if they release the numbers and the public sees how much money they're raking in they then are going to have to show us where its being spent and that obviously scares the hell out of them. if this is indeed the case i don't ever see 'em letting that info out. their house of cards would come crumbling down and they know it. i sure wish they would prove me wrong.

 

[buttshot]

It is only obvious that is the reason they refuse to release the odds.
could be time to start writing letters to DWR and Senators.

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-11 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]While we are waiting to hear back from SFW and MDF regarding their joint decision whether to release the actual tag-by-tag drawing odds, I thought it would be fun to enlist the help of some of the other hunters and outdoorsman that frequent this website. I have always considered myself to be fairly open-minded, and I generally try to consider both sides of controversial issues. However, I am struggling to understand why SFW and MDF are so reluctant to release the previously promised odds.

So here is my question, is there some legitimate business reason why SFW and MDF should not release the drawing odds? So far, after two separate meetings with SFW and MDF, I have not heard a single reason that makes any sense to me but I want to make sure that I am not overlooking some legitimate, logical reason for their current position. The closest I can come to a reasonable and logical explanation for the refusal to release the drawing odds is the following: If the actual drawings odds are so bad that the release of such odds might result in less people applying for the tags, then this may result in less money being generated and less people being attracted to the State of Utah and spending their tourism dollars here.

Don?t get me wrong, there are several problems with this argument, including the fact that most people, including me, are probably going to apply regardless of what the odds show. In other words, we already know the odds are bad but they were promised and they should be made available in the name of accountability and transparency.

Some examples of what I believe are NOT legitimate reasons for withholding the odds include the following (all of which I have heard at one time or another): (1) The State of Utah has not mandated that SFW or MDF release the odds; (2) SFW and MDF have not been able to reach an agreement on the issue; (3) Nobody has proven in the public record that SFW or MDF promised to release the drawing odds back in 2005/2006; (4) It takes time and money to compile and release the drawing odds, and SFW and MDF are busy with more important matters; (5) Everyone knows the odds are bad so who cares; (6) SFW and MDF are private corporations and so the drawing odds are not any of our business . . . .

So let's hear it, what is best reason for allowing these groups to continue to withhold this information, which they previously promised to release? What am I missing?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-11 AT 11:19AM (MST)[p]Since these are tags going to the public with substantial revenue going into the coffers of both of these organizations in the process, IMO there is absolutely no reason that the odds should not be posted along with a yearly breakdown of where all the money that is generated is being spent. This lack of accountability, whether required in writing or not, lends such negative connotations to the whole process that it is hard not to speculate on my part that there is something rotten in Demark (Utah in this instance!). I still can't believe that there was no written document/contract between the state and these organizations regarding what we are discussing, especially financial accountability. Everyone knows, or as adults, should know the odds at this Expo are astronomical,but it appears the Expo keeps growing from what I'm reading on this thread. Therefore, the release of the actual odds shouldn't decrease participation because of what's at stake for the winners, just like it doesn't in Powerball and all the other gambling that adults are doing nowadays. Nope, the only conclusion I can come to as an out of state bystander reading this thread is that incoming money isn't outgoing where it should be in all instances and by not knowing the exact odds in the drawings a person cannot even calculate the monies being generated. Further, with nothing in writing demanding that all monies be accounted for, it is strictly up to the individuals running the organizations to have the integrity and voluntarily do what is right so the public knows they are on the up and up. I'm not so sure that they can ever make amends as long as this lack of transparency has been taking place. Even though it appears that both organizations are doing good things, there is just way too much negative criticism of them and I think much of it has been brought on by the Officers of the organizations. Nuff said!!!

 

[huntin100]

Hawkeye,

I don't have the answers. I think trust and accountability is important. Just a few thoughts I have.

1. The odds are already bad. They have the general odds posted. Good enough.

2. The more specific info open to the public, the more info sportsmen have, but also anti hunting groups see your cards as well. I guess this needs to be balanced.

3. The draw is done at the DWR office, with many DWR employees around. It's a fair draw. Even though I havn't drawn a tag.

4. Maybe the biggest reason, there will be always be people complain, no matter what you do, what the odds are, are you making enough money? Where is the specific money going? Is it better to spend money to fight wolf battles, habitat, transplants, etc? "A significant amount of money to be used to be for wildlife." Does fighting political battles benifit wildlife and hunting? Where do you start and stop. Are there fears that the leadership is just padding their pockets? It is not my fear, because I know the main guy's making the decisions. They want what's best for their kids and grandkids, when it comes to hunting in Utah. Sometimes you can micromanage too much, you loose some of your effectiveness in your over all goals.

5. Odds may decrease people from putting in for draws. You still have the expenses. If the expo doesn't suceed long term, will that make a difference in sportsmens power and ability to help hunting and wildlife in the future?

Just a few thoughts. I'm just a dumb red neck,speaking for myself. The odds are not a big deal for me. Doing things you say you would do is more important. I don't know what was said at the meeting.

I do know we need to work together as sportsmen.

 

[Wildman]

The real problem is that there was no statutory language in the original agreement requiring public disclosure of funds. If you think this was an oversight, you're ignorant. The reality is this was power and politics from day one.
If you really believe that government is about integrity and truth, you are extremely naive. Government is about power and money. Don Peay and SFW have played the power and money game to gain the influence they have. Unfortunately, anyone who has played the political game for more than five minutes realizes power and money are the only ticket to the political arena.

Example:

You can do virtually nothing on federal lands without a corresponding Environment Impact Statement yet somehow Harry Reid managed to get congressional approval for a 200 mile pipeline from the Snake Valley aquifer to northern Las Vegas without requiring so much as a single ESA.

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but this is how it is done. I don't like it either.

 

[hossblur]

First, I don't think there is anything suspicious. Nothing illegal etc. Like a lot of you I apply every year because it gives me something to look forward to in deep winter. Regardless of odds I will most likely continue to do so.

Second, the "if the anti's know what we are doing" argument is weak if only because there is no big secret, we want hunting, they don't.

Lastly, I truly believe this is just flat out arrogance. Remember, the uppers at SFW travel in a lot different circles than we do. If I tell you I will do something, I do it. I don't need a contract, or law, just me saying so. SFW travels in the political world in which everyone looks for the loopholes and exceptions. I believe SFW has moved so far past where they started that they have totally lost touch with the vast majority of sportsmen. My guess is that the dog and pony show that Don conducted was forced upon him, and in short a total suprise to him that it was needed. Remember, if your dad built up an oil company, you have unlimited funds to buy a tame deer hunt on an island(similar to a high fence, just water not wire) and you are extremely content with the hunts you can buy. I doubt Karl Malone cares much about the deer hunting on public ground in NE Utah(not because he is bad, just because he can buy the best tags anywhere). Likewise the big supporters of SFW for whom money and geography aren't an issue don't get involved in the issues we do. They want to hunt the Pahvant, they buy a tag, no draw. Hunt the Heneries? Call Doyle at a banquet and have him bid up a tag. If the guys who write you the big checks, and take you on the expensive hunts, and use you to guide for cats are all happy and content, you have no idea that the public at large isn't, and unless someone shows you some of these forums, it is off your radar. Because SFW has become $FW, it has lost touch and therefore are way behind the curve on issues that matter to us, not illegality, not shady, just arrogant.

 

[llamapacker]

I recieved an e-mail today from Ryan Foutz of SFW. It read, in part:

"I appreciate your email & concern and wanted to let you know that Byron Bateman (SFW) & Miles Moretti (MDF) have agreed to place the Expo drawing odds for the past 5 years on the WHCE website. These should be on the Expo website within the next 2 weeks if not sooner at www.huntexpo.com (the new 2012 website is being put together and should be done with updated schedule, floor layout, entertainment, seminars etc.)

The drawing odds will be by hunt unit & by species."

Thank you Ryan and Miles for coming to this decision. Thank YOU Hawkeye for bird dogging this issue to a successful conclusion. I'm sure there will be some with trust issues until the data is released. To a certain degree, I am included in this group. I have faith the groups will do what they say on this issue. I am hopeful they won't try to obfuscate the odds by lumping archery with general rifle, premium, etc., but instead give us complete odds by hunt choice as broken down on the hunt application form. As I recall, there were approximately 92 different hunt choices on the application form (92 x $5 = $460. May not be exact, but I think this is close.). I am expecting to see the odds for each of these $5 hunt choices.

When SFW and MDF publishes these odds, my opinion of the organizations will rise, and I will conscoiusly consider renewing memberships in these groups. Thanks again to Hawkeye and everyone who helped put the pressure on to get this data released.

Bill

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 01:11PM (MST)[p]Bill-

Thank you for the update. I had not heard that a decision was made. I am looking forward to seeing what information is posted and how it is compiled. If it were up to me, I would suggest something as simple as breaking down the various hunts by weapon and then posting (1) the total number of tags; (2) the total number of applicants; and (3) the actual drawing odds (e.g., 1 in 454). This is essentially what the DWR does. See http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2010_biggame_odds.pdf

Thank you SFW and MDF for listening to the public on this issue. Some will gripe that this should have happened long ago but I believe in the old saying, "better late than never!"

I think this goes to show that we as hunters can make a difference and effect change if we will educate ourselves on the issues, work together, and follow through on issues even though change may not come quickly. Thank you to everyone who got involved.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD