Restricting Trail Cams may be the answer

javihammer

Active Member
Messages
135
Has anyone wondered how record book animals consistently enter the book every year regardless of habitat conditions? Whether it is Arizona, Utah, New Mexico or Nevada, the bar seems to be raised every year. It makes you wonder if hunters are getting better at finding the best animals or if overall trophy quality is improving. The widespread proliferation of digital trail cams and the attack of wealth tags by auction and raffle groups seem to have started about the same time. People didn't begin relying on game cameras until about the early 2000s.

I would argue that 365x24 hour a day, night vision digital game cameras have made collecting data cheaper than ever. Game cameras have been increasingly used by Western guides and outfitters to locate the cream of the crop. Cameras allow guides to document trophy quality from year to year and make associations about travel routes and other animal behavior. The images the outiftters capture also serves as proof to market the data they collect. A close-up game camera picture of a monster is far more marketable than a fuzzy digscope pic, and much cheaper. Some outfitters actually play the role of general contractor acting as information broker for the governor tags and such. The smaller outfitters find the monsters and work out finders fees through the data broker. The data broker generally hires their in house pursuit team to surveil the animal and get it killed. The outside world (and most auction bidders) then think the "highly skilled" data broker is almost required in order to kill a great animal. Unlike 20 years ago, auction tag bidders can now see if there are monsters available before they drop the money to buy specific tags from year to year.

And here is how this ties into expo tags. MDF and SFW would love to have people think they are marketing geniuses. Nothing is further from the truth. They exploit standard economic principles. They use the political process and the innate and corrupt lure of money to take tags from the public hunters, the same people that have contributed and paid the "opportunity" cost of deferred gratification by limiting harvest over many decades. They then work to get their auction and raffle tags locked down by contract, adding language to ensure their allocation of tags is insulated from any change in overall tag numbers set by science by the DWR. The contracts also include hurdles (deliberate barriers to entry) to protect them from competition by other tag broker candidates. They then exploit the economic priciple of scarcity by immediately turning on the DWR by calling them idiots and such, demanding that public tags be reduced, thereby limiting supply. They also work to promote limited entry and premium pricing of certain public tags to begin indoctrinating the DIY crowd into the idea that premium hunts are something special they really cannot afford. They then engage in strategic partnerships with data brokers (thinly veiled as outfitters)to capture the data they can use to market their expo tags and prove the farce that overall animal quaility is actually improving as a result of their conservation efforts. This process only serves to self perpetuate and further reduce hunt opportunity from year to year for average hunters.

It would be much more difficult to market wealth tags without some proof that the quality of the tag justifies the expense. Game cameras are a cheap way to collect that data (probably the only way to collect it on a grand scale). If regular hunters petitioned the DWR to significantly restrict the use of trail cams, especially by guides, deserving average joe hunters would probably be able to recover some of their lost public tags. I believe the existing contracts require some level of marketing performance by the expo brokers, I think auction bidders would lower their bids if there was less data to justify the value of the tags. Once the monies generated for each tag goes down, a good case could be made that the brokers are not meeting the performance terms agreed in the contract and a good argument could be made to put them back in the public drawing. Utah hunters could start a petition to get this going immediately.

Just a thought, Utah hunters have tons of leverage to push back against this garbage. Once again, I am not advocating an outright ban on game cameras, just restrictions on the timing and by how they are being used commercially.

Ryan
 
"Let me use my camera, and let me decide who else can."???????


Hahahahahahahahahaha. So you really believe you are better than everybody else. Thats your America??? Legislate against people doing exactly what you do because you don't like the fact that they make money. Somehow you are so self righteous and pure???? And you wonder why the wildlife board acts like they are tired of hearing all the crying. Trust me, sticking governments boot on the neck of "picture brokers" and outfitters ain't gonna solve your problems.
 
I do agree that trailcams have greatly increased the chances of finding the better animals that are mostly nocturnal and the premise that they would tend to help a person sell a hunt to someone that has the money and wants to know of some big animals before bidding on a high-priced tag. However, there is no way that I can separate the "industry" people who are making a living from guiding/outfitting from the average DIY guy as far as placing cameras out. If they were outlawed on public land, that would give an unfair advantage to people hunting private property. If they were outlawed on all lands, it would be impossible to enforce on private property. I'm a purist and really wish that some of this modern technology had never been invented to include trailcams and ATVs that are allowed off the main roads. On the other hand, I sure like looking at all the pictures of good animals taken by these cameras. I do really shake my head when I keep reading about all the trailcams being out on certain water holes out west on public land and a bunch of them being stolen. The way our world is going I can't imagine anyone expecting something like that placed out on public lands not being stolen. It's not right, but there are so many scumbags out there that I doubt that I would ever buy one unless it was only to be placed on private property.
 
Let those guys have their cameras. If it takes an army of spotters, and outfitters. And a truck load of trail cameras and cash, for them to close the deal, so be it. To each his own.

Most of us actualy live the dream, do all the work. And reap the honest rewards. Knowing full well that we carry our own weight. You can buy it, or some one can give it to you. Earning it is always better. I've shot two points that are greater trophies than my monsters. Hunting is about much more than trophies. It is that which cant be bought or sold, and never will be, that is the most valuable.
 
Phillip---You are putting out some excellent posts for just coming onboard the site and I couldn't have said any better what you just posted. Kudos to you Bro!
 
Its tough to know were to draw the line.. I myself like the trail cam solution, I think its an overall low impact way of scouting and is really harmless.
 
Take away their trail cams, high end optics,
Rhino's and helicopters, they will just use
The money they save to buy up more of our
Land, and more no tresspassing signs.
 
Why not just do away with the wealth tags?Your idea reeks of elitism.Myland nailed it,and so did Stillwater.If you're going to take away one thing,why not go all the way and take it all?let's hunt with sticks and strings only!

The guys that participate in the type of hunting you speak of may be wealthy financially;but they may never know the wealth of satisfaction from killing your trophy DIY.That's their loss.

Restricting trailcams will solve nothing.So everyone could use them except guides and outfitters??Is that your idea?Please elaborate.
 
I've always been a DIY guy and I will put out a few cameras to see what I get. Since I'm a DIY guy, is it a little more OK to use cameras than a guide? Do I spend more money scouting than a guy that takes someone out for pay?

Here's one I've pondered on. Lots of folks on here talk bad about guides so I guess the people that hire them are inferior. So if a guide draws a tag of his own, is it still a guided hunt, or is the guy good enough for the guide haters because now its a DIY hunt?

I say leave the subject alone. I always hear how someone's afraid to take a pee anymore because of trail cams. What about the guy on top of the hill watching you through $2000 glass. Or the guy sitting under the tree that you didn't see due to his superior Camo or blind?

I guess some folks just live to complain about something.

Attention ethics police: I have been sent here to
destroy you!!
 
Stillwaterhunter, I understand and agree with your post. A lot of hunters can't or won't understand. Sorry, I called the guys that can't or won't understand "hunters". mtmuley
 
With a wife and four kids, this is the only way I can scout. I use to get out 3 to 4 times a week, but now 3 to 4 times a month. When you do find a trail cam, dress up as big foot. It'll freak them out!
 
I prefer a Michael Meyers mask and come by it close to dark!

Attention ethics police: I have been sent here to
destroy you!!
 
This is what is being kicked around at the Department of the Interior in Washington.

One of the reports used in the analysis of the program was information gleaned from hunting fourms.

You could soon see a yearly fee placed on each camera you want to place on any federal land.

It will be a per camera fee. Each permitted camera will have a micro chip super glued to it at the BLM office when you buy your permits.

These chips can be scanned by law enfocement with a hand held device to get all the info contained in the micro chip.

Using GPS technology the location, time, date and ownership will be will be down loaded to a public data base at the time of scanning.

Unpermitted cameras in your possession while on any federal land will be confiscated. To go along with a wildlife violation.

A couple of the reasons they are going to be using
for this new regulation are:
The batteries are being tossed into the water shed, fair chase, baiting at camera sights,especially salt based baits, destruction of trees and shrubs, used by poachers and pot growers. Not to mention so many people complaining to law enforcement about stolen cameras.

Some of the numbers being kicked around are;

$25 per camera, per year.

Half the money to go towards permit processing and hardware, the other half towards "wild life conservation".

Outfitters are already required to apply for a permit to place a camera on Federal land. It has not been enforced in the past, but will soon enforced under this new regulation.

Just like you can not take an un-tagged or un-registered ATV or camp trailer or other vehicle on to federal land.

There is also talk of firearms and archery equipment to fall into this program down the road.
 
Oh my God! The gubmit Is going to start puting taxes for permits on all of our hunting equipment! Pretty soon only rich people will be able to afford the hunting equipment. They are going to violate NAM! Quick round up the idiot masses and attack! I want a complete accounting of the permit money and a legal guarantee that %90 of all funds from the permits go back to a program that will provide trail cams for less fortunate crybabies. I mean less fortunate hunters.
 
Don't want to burst your bubble Tri-state...you've been taxed for hunting privileges since 1937....this includes gun sales, sporting good equipment..ect...
 
I know Longun. I was trying to be exceptionally sarcastic. Pretty much nothing in my last post was accurate.
 
You really think that will actually work??? How many people with trail cams do you think will head down to the BLM/Forest Service and register a camera? How are they going to enforce the law? How are they going to know if its your camera if they find it and its not registered.

I'm already taking a huge risk putting a camera out there, why on earth would I pay a fee on top of the risk? Either way it will probably be stolen and never be found.

And why is the "Department of Interior" discussing issues about trail cameras? Don't they have more important issues to deal with? I think poachers and those people doing things illegally on federal lands should be a bit more of a concern to the department. Why not think of ways to eliminate that type of activity? Honestly, what harm does a trail camera do? I don't buy the "battery" thing.
 
hjb. you dont buy a lot of things,drinking' cams. shooting from the road. get with it man' its the utah way;;;
 
>Oh my God! The gubmit
>Is going to start puting
>taxes for permits on all
>of our hunting equipment!
>Pretty soon only rich people
>will be able to afford
>the hunting equipment. They
>are going to violate NAM!
> Quick round up the
>idiot masses and attack!
>I want a complete accounting
>of the permit money and
>a legal guarantee that %90
>of all funds from the
>permits go back to a
>program that will provide trail
>cams for less fortunate crybabies.
> I mean less fortunate
>hunters.

Okay DON! Seriously....go smoke some more of those public paid for cigars and eat some more Twinkies you dope!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 04:17PM (MST)[p]"Utard"! Do you even know what that is? That's like calling Black people the "N" word. Of course most of them don't even know that they are Utards. You know, the ones that never change lanes so you have to pass them on the right. Unless they have to drive next to there buddy, then your stuck behind them flashing your lights and honking your horn. Well lets not get into that, I could go on for hours between the "Utards" and the "Idaho farmers" thing.


________________________________________
;-) Mickey Mouse Outfitters provides an experience you will never forget, because we always do it Micky Mouse style. We always guarantee shots. It might be at the ground or in the air, but it's a guarantee we are committed to.
 
Crap, what a snippy ass answer, hell its his opnion, thought what ever. If you disagree say so, dont worry about who's pure, who's better, cry cry cry.

Get off your soap box, disagree make a point on the subject not the person.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 03:53PM (MST)[p]Who was that post addressed to newbie? It's way up at the start of the thread and sure can't be for the couple of preceding posts! If it's referring to that jackass Trollstate post #1, then say so, rather than putting it after someone who made a great post like you did please!
 
OK, Topgun, Ole vetern, it was a comment to anyone, but after reading Tristates response it clear to see that its an attack on the posters comment about the Cam's. Now if he is opposed to the comment, say so, the group can learn, or I can learn. I have never used nor will I use a cam.

But a forum is just that, opinions, comments etc, Not a direct hey asswipe you are an idiot. Even you ole wise one can learn, well I hope so.

So if I have stirred you up, dont expect me to say sorry, maybe you support name calling, personal referencing etc. If that is the case I cant learn a thing from you vertern.

Thanks for your input.
 
Back to the original post for a second; I don't think it will ever be possible to impose a double standard when it comes to the outfitter vs the Joe hunter and their use of technology.

Personally I don't like the concept of trail cameras one bit. It takes the "hunt" and "romance" out of the hunting experience for everyone who uses them. It all becomes an issue of "inches" rather than the outdoor experience. I hate trail cams but I'd never impose my will on others who use them or wants to use them. It's a little thing I like to call personal liberty. We should be banding together to protect each other but in every thread we can see how divisive we are. Too bad.

The more we try to control others the more controls will be imposed on us.

Zeke
 
>Back to the original post for
>a second; I don't think
>it will ever be possible
>to impose a double standard
>when it comes to the
>outfitter vs the Joe hunter
>and their use of technology.
>
>
>Personally I don't like the concept
>of trail cameras one bit.
>It takes the "hunt" and
>"romance" out of the hunting
>experience for everyone who uses
>them. It all becomes an
>issue of "inches" rather than
>the outdoor experience. I hate
>trail cams but I'd never
>impose my will on others
>who use them or wants
>to use them. It's a
>little thing I like to
>call personal liberty. We should
>be banding together to protect
>each other but in every
>thread we can see how
>divisive we are. Too bad.
>
>
>The more we try to control
>others the more controls will
>be imposed on us.
>
>Zeke


Now THAT is how you have a discussion with someone who doesn't share your same point of view! Great post Zeke! I use the cameras mostly for entertainment and to see animals my regular scouting doesn't turn up. Doesn't effect my hunt plans much other than to get me excited to be in the woods where those same critters are roaming around. Despite preparation efforts by anyone, hunting is still made up of mostly luck.
 
Pete---I have no problem with your post. It was where you put it way up in the thread with no referenceas to who it was speaking to. I'm pretty much in your camp on the camera issue and pelse don;t all me an Ole anything, LOL!
 
Enforcing trail cam registration would be very easy. Since trail cams capture competitve information there is an incentive to see unregistered cameras removed if you are a either a registered user or someone that thinks they are just unsightly. I am thinking the BLM could capture the serial number of the cameras during the registration process and offer a small bounty to people that bring in unregistered cameras that are abandoned in the forest. BLM could require a photograph and GPS coordinates where the camera was found and confirm the camera was unregistered. If BLM discovered an outfitter putting out unregistered cameras (the serial number may have been registed in a previous year) on a regular basis they could pull all of the guides permits. I would envision a brightly colored sticker that could be affixed to the side of the camera, the sticker would contain the ownership and registration information. The color of the sticker would signify the year of registration. I would imagine there would also be a limit to the number of cameras that could be registered to a single business and protocol for how often the cameras need to be checked...maybe monthly. Maybe 25 cameras max per year. It would certainly be a game changer and would leave more quality game available for the DIY crowd. It would also make smaller outfitters a little more judicious about managing the data they collect since they would have a bigger investment in it.

I am not into limits to freedoms, I am a conservative Republican Assembly of God, church every Sunday happily married father of three minor kids. I have received trail cameras as gifts and I think they are neat technologically. That said, I think the positives they provide fail to outweigh the negatives. There is no question they work against average hunters by making the commercialization of hunting easier. Anyone that hunts unit 9 or 13b in Arizona will have their mind blown, they are practically stacked at every water hole. I must admit I value the calm privacy of the outdoors and I am not a fan of these surveilance cameras cluttering up the forest. They can also be used to monitor hunter activity and tell outfitters how early to get clients to the water. That isnt wildlife observation, it is voyeurism.

My point to mentioning this is to point out the soft spots of the wealth tag sponsors. This is like Jenga, and trail cams may be one more piece that will cause the wealth tag stack to fall.

Ryan
 
>
>Enforcing trail cam registration would be
>very easy. Since trail cams
>capture competitve information there is
>an incentive to see unregistered
>cameras removed if you are
>a either a registered user
>or someone that thinks they
>are just unsightly. I am
>thinking the BLM could capture
>the serial number of the
>cameras during the registration process
>and offer a small bounty
>to people that bring in
>unregistered cameras that are abandoned
>in the forest. BLM could
>require a photograph and GPS
>coordinates where the camera was
>found and confirm the camera
>was unregistered. If BLM discovered
>an outfitter putting out unregistered
>cameras (the serial number may
>have been registed in a
>previous year) on a regular
>basis they could pull all
>of the guides permits. I
>would envision a brightly colored
>sticker that could be affixed
>to the side of the
>camera, the sticker would contain
>the ownership and registration information.
>The color of the sticker
>would signify the year of
>registration. I would imagine there
>would also be a limit
>to the number of cameras
>that could be registered to
>a single business and protocol
>for how often the cameras
>need to be checked...maybe monthly.
>Maybe 25 cameras max per
>year. It would certainly be
>a game changer and would
>leave more quality game available
>for the DIY crowd. It
>would also make smaller outfitters
>a little more judicious about
>managing the data they collect
>since they would have a
>bigger investment in it.
>
>I am not into limits to
>freedoms, I am a conservative
>Republican Assembly of God, church
>every Sunday happily married father
>of three minor kids. I
>have received trail cameras as
>gifts and I think they
>are neat technologically. That said,
>I think the positives they
>provide fail to outweigh the
>negatives. There is no question
>they work against average hunters
>by making the commercialization of
>hunting easier. Anyone that hunts
>unit 9 or 13b in
>Arizona will have their mind
>blown, they are practically stacked
>at every water hole. I
>must admit I value the
>calm privacy of the outdoors
>and I am not a
>fan of these surveilance cameras
>cluttering up the forest. They
>can also be used to
>monitor hunter activity and tell
>outfitters how early to get
>clients to the water. That
>isnt wildlife observation, it is
>voyeurism.
>
>My point to mentioning this is
>to point out the soft
>spots of the wealth tag
>sponsors. This is like Jenga,
>and trail cams may be
>one more piece that will
>cause the wealth tag stack
>to fall.
>
>Ryan


Ryan,
The forest service and BLM already require a permit under land uses for any commercial photography, per camera, and they even specify trail cameras as an included method. I use cameras, I'm not wealthy, and I don't get why you're even bothered by the cameras. If you don't like them, don't use them. If you are making money from the use of them, well, then like anything else you must follow the rules and rules and money go hand in hand. Good luck with your endeavors!
 
>
>Enforcing trail cam registration would be
>very easy. Since trail cams
>capture competitve information there is
>an incentive to see unregistered
>cameras removed if you are
>a either a registered user
>or someone that thinks they
>are just unsightly. I am
>thinking the BLM could capture
>the serial number of the
>cameras during the registration process
>and offer a small bounty
>to people that bring in
>unregistered cameras that are abandoned
>in the forest. BLM could
>require a photograph and GPS
>coordinates where the camera was
>found and confirm the camera
>was unregistered. If BLM discovered
>an outfitter putting out unregistered
>cameras (the serial number may
>have been registed in a
>previous year) on a regular
>basis they could pull all
>of the guides permits. I
>would envision a brightly colored
>sticker that could be affixed
>to the side of the
>camera, the sticker would contain
>the ownership and registration information.
>The color of the sticker
>would signify the year of
>registration. I would imagine there
>would also be a limit
>to the number of cameras
>that could be registered to
>a single business and protocol
>for how often the cameras
>need to be checked...maybe monthly.
>Maybe 25 cameras max per
>year. It would certainly be
>a game changer and would
>leave more quality game available
>for the DIY crowd. It
>would also make smaller outfitters
>a little more judicious about
>managing the data they collect
>since they would have a
>bigger investment in it.
>
>I am not into limits to
>freedoms, I am a conservative
>Republican Assembly of God, church
>every Sunday happily married father
>of three minor kids. I
>have received trail cameras as
>gifts and I think they
>are neat technologically. That said,
>I think the positives they
>provide fail to outweigh the
>negatives. There is no question
>they work against average hunters
>by making the commercialization of
>hunting easier. Anyone that hunts
>unit 9 or 13b in
>Arizona will have their mind
>blown, they are practically stacked
>at every water hole. I
>must admit I value the
>calm privacy of the outdoors
>and I am not a
>fan of these surveilance cameras
>cluttering up the forest. They
>can also be used to
>monitor hunter activity and tell
>outfitters how early to get
>clients to the water. That
>isnt wildlife observation, it is
>voyeurism.
>
>My point to mentioning this is
>to point out the soft
>spots of the wealth tag
>sponsors. This is like Jenga,
>and trail cams may be
>one more piece that will
>cause the wealth tag stack
>to fall.
>
>Ryan

So it's just more class warfare to you. Yeah you are really conservative as long as that means screwing people who make money.
 
Like I explained, I believe trail cams are tools that support marketing wildlife for auction. I realize the suggestion of regulation isnt popular with everyone, even decent DIY guys. Individual hunters may put up a camera or two and monitor a favorite waterhole. But syndicates of outfitters literally monitor vast areas with hundreds of cameras and plot the data into mapping software and broker the data. If the BLM and Forest Service have permit programs in place they should be enforcing them and I would like to see a per camera fee program with some kind of maintenance requirement.

My endeavors are to see fewer tags taken from the public draw. Simple as that, nothing is off the table in my world. Cheap data obtained through widespread trail cam use is not in the best long term interests of most of us in my opinion.

Ryan
 
" "
Ryan,
The forest service and BLM already require a permit under land uses for any commercial photography, per camera, and they even specify trail cameras as an included method. I use cameras, I'm not wealthy, and I don't get why you're even bothered by the cameras. If you don't like them, don't use them. If you are making money from the use of them, well, then like anything else you must follow the rules and rules and money go hand in hand. Good luck with your endeavors!

KLBZDAD, You are kind of right, but....
There is a small technicality that keeps the outfitters or any body else making money from there photos from from having to pull a permit for there trail cameras on federal land.

If you do not have a paid model, or a prop in the photo you do not have to pull the permit.


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/photo-permits/
 
Guides aren't the only ones that have hoards of cameras employed. I know a handful of DIY guys that have tons of cameras for themselves.

I don't think limiting the number of cameras allowed for guides over the DIY guy will hold up. If that same guide has a tag himself for any animal, then he's just scouting for himself. Now he's a DIY guy.

This conversation has gone on in the past over ATV use, long range shooting, and even the use of high powered optics! People will be set against each other when the don't agree with something. After all, isn't that the drive behind some of the antis? They just don't think hunting is useful in this day and age.

There is no such thing as agreeing to disagree. Most folks aren't happy until
Everyone else sees things their way.

Attention ethics police: I have been sent here to
destroy you!!
 
>"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "
>Ryan,
>The forest service and BLM already
>require a permit under land
>uses for any commercial photography,
>per camera, and they even
>specify trail cameras as an
>included method. I use cameras,
>I'm not wealthy, and I
>don't get why you're even
>bothered by the cameras. If
>you don't like them, don't
>use them. If you are
>making money from the use
>of them, well, then like
>anything else you must follow
>the rules and rules and
>money go hand in hand.
>Good luck with your endeavors!
>
>
>KLBZDAD, You are kind of right,
>but....
>There is a small technicality that
>keeps the outfitters or any
>body else making money from
>there photos from from having
>to pull a permit for
>there trail cameras on federal
>land.
>
>If you do not have a
>paid model, or a prop
>in the photo you do
>not have to pull the
>permit.
>
>
>http://www.largeformatphotography.info/photo-permits/


I'm going to have to re-read the codes then. In the mean time, I think I'm going to put up a camera to watch this computer screen, then I'm going to post the photos for unit 39 and call myself and "outfitter":)
 
I agree Tyler, this is a tightrope. Bowhunters divide against muzzy and rifle hunters. Some guys get jealous over other people's glass. Some people hate road hunters and ATVs. I am a spot and stalk bowhunter and have been since I was 10 years old, 30 years. I dont always agree with other peoples methods but I respect their choice and freedom. I occasionally hunt with a rifle and own an ATV. I also have family members who are guides and they are good people.

But this isnt about fighting over a hunting method, even though the people that profit from brokering the data will try to write it off that way. Trail cams capture data inexpensively. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to capture photos of a target animal on multiple cams and plot the information on mapping software to identify travel corridors. Trail cams absolutely make finding the biggest animal in an area much easier. This wouldnt be a problem if the data wasnt aggragated and peddled through a syndicate to support the auction tag market. As long as there is an abundance of cheap, free flowing data about oversize targets, there will people trying to game the system to lock out the average hunter in the public draw.

I do not have all the answers on this, there just seems to be a relationship between the people fighting against the NAM and trail cam usage. I have to wonder what Teddy Roosevelt would have thought about them. Here is a link to a story about how the term Teddy bear came to be and the event that led to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_bear

Based on this story I would have to believe Teddy would not have supported the use of surveillance cameras for hunting, especially when deployed by the hundreds and used by so called conservation groups to push back against his North American Wildlife principles.

Ryan
 
I agree guides will use the pictures of the animal to try and sell themselves to a client, but often times its not just the trail camera pictures they use. They usually get quite a bit of video of the same animal that they took while they were sitting somewhere up high watching the animal through glass. Sometimes they even have past sheds of that animal!

What I'm saying is it takes a lot more than just sticking a camera to a tree to find a big animal. The successful guys spend tons of time and tons of money out there looking. Some of these guys are out there year around, even when there's not much on the deer or Elks head! The guys that have the biggest heartache are the guys that might get out a couple times or just pop in on opening morning.

I personally have a few cameras, and it probably costs me more in gas money to check them than I would use if I just scouted and had no cameras. The cameras cost money, and it costs money to check them, so I'm not sure it's an inexpensive way to scout.

The other side is, just cause you have a camera out there doesn't guarantee your gonna know what's in there. I have miles of video of bucks over the past few years that I have yet to get a picture of.

Attention ethics police: I have been sent here to
destroy you!!
 
>I agree Tyler, this is a
>tightrope. Bowhunters divide against muzzy
>and rifle hunters. Some guys
>get jealous over other people's
>glass. Some people hate road
>hunters and ATVs. I am
>a spot and stalk bowhunter
>and have been since I
>was 10 years old, 30
>years. I dont always agree
>with other peoples methods but
>I respect their choice and
>freedom. I occasionally hunt with
>a rifle and own an
>ATV. I also have family
>members who are guides and
>they are good people.
>
>But this isnt about fighting over
>a hunting method, even though
>the people that profit from
>brokering the data will try
>to write it off that
>way. Trail cams capture data
>inexpensively. It doesnt take a
>rocket scientist to capture photos
>of a target animal on
>multiple cams and plot the
>information on mapping software to
>identify travel corridors. Trail cams
>absolutely make finding the biggest
>animal in an area much
>easier. This wouldnt be a
>problem if the data wasnt
>aggragated and peddled through a
>syndicate to support the auction
>tag market. As long as
>there is an abundance of
>cheap, free flowing data about
>oversize targets, there will people
>trying to game the system
>to lock out the average
>hunter in the public draw.
>
>
>I do not have all the
>answers on this, there just
>seems to be a relationship
>between the people fighting against
>the NAM and trail cam
>usage. I have to wonder
>what Teddy Roosevelt would have
>thought about them. Here is
>a link to a story
>about how the term Teddy
>bear came to be and
>the event that led to
>it.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_bear
>
>Based on this story I would
>have to believe Teddy would
>not have supported the use
>of surveillance cameras for hunting,
>especially when deployed by the
>hundreds and used by so
>called conservation groups to push
>back against his North American
>Wildlife principles.
>
>Ryan


HUH?
 
Interesting topic. I see what Javi is saying and I see the flip side of the argument.

Let me toss this out there.

Javi, your root issue is auction tags correct? So the argument is, trailcams promote the auction tag system?

Ok, so what percentage of total tags are auction\raffle tags? 1% or probably less? So we are going to create rules about trailcams and their uses based on the 1% of auction tag hunters you have an issue with? What about the 99% that arent auction/raffle tag hunters? Why are we going to make rules for 100% of the hunters when only 1% are misusing them (in your eyes)?

Here's my take. Making more rules will never deal with the heart of the issue you see as a problem. As long as there has been money, there has been those who have more of it than others, there has been those trying to get more of it, there has been those who will do anything to get more of it and there has been those who don't have it. That will never change... ever! So maybe instead of going on a mission to stop the commercialization of hunting by rules and regulations that not only effect the ones you take issue with but also effects the ones you call peers, why not deal with the root issue? Hunting is on a big money, big trophy cycle that cannot/will not stop until those promoting it stop. The desire for big trophies has been promoted by the magazines we read and the shows we watch.... why? Because of those trying to sell us more stuff. Use this litte doodad to silence your cough and you will shoot this giant buck.

Trailcams are only a tool. They are useless objects that don't do anything until you put them in someones hands. Kinda like guns. Are we going to take guns away because 1% of the population abuse their purpose? You cannot regulate ethics. You are never going to heal a disease by trying to cure symptoms. "Cancer causes headaches so take some asprin and you'll be fine." Get what I'm saying? Commercialization of hunting is the cancer and trailcams are the headache.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
"Commercialization of hunting is the cancer and trailcams are the headache."

Yes, and it's a cancer that is growing rapidly with no good answers as to how to even slow it down, not just stop it completely.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-12 AT 07:47AM (MST)[p]You want to stop it? We need to teach our kids different. Thats the only thing that will stop it. This current generation of hunters is already set on a course that will not change. Regulate all you want, it won't change the desire for the biggest trophy and the "fame" that comes with it. Thats the root of the problem.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
"Commercialization of hunting is the cancer and trailcams are the headache."

Yes, and it's a cancer that is growing rapidly with no good answers as to how to even slow it down, not just stop it completely.


If you believe this whole heartedly you most get rid of your camo, throw away any commercialy made weapon you have, quit buying a legal license and only hunt illegaly with a rock. Good luck. Oh yeah and never post on this website again because if you haven't noticed it commercializes hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-12 AT 07:53AM (MST)[p]You are absolutely right tristate.

Funny thing is, this percieved threat to our hunting roots puts more money into wildlife conservation than anyone of us. And the money they use to buy the demon auction tags benefits all of us.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
"You want to stop it? We need to teach our kids different. Thats the only thing that will stop it. This current generation of hunters is already set on a course that will not change. Regulate all you want, it won't change the desire for the biggest trophy and the "fame" that comes with it. Thats the root of the problem"


Couldn't agree with you more! As usual, Trollstate compounds the message out to everything but hunting with a rock, LOL!
 
"Couldn't agree with you more! As usual, Trollstate compounds the message out to everything but hunting with a rock, LOL!"


I just find it humorous and ironic when a self-righteous poster damns commercialization of hunting when he can't go hunting without it, and he does it on a website with hunting commercials on it. And you wonder why I think you are an anti-hunter.
 
Well, I think tristate put what I was trying to say better than I was able to say it.

We can all continue arguing on a site that's commercialized! Fact is, some people make money off hunters selling us things that we need to hunt, or things that we don't necessarily need but are fun to mess with. Then some complain about it!

Attention ethics police: I have been sent here to
destroy you!!
 
No doubt about it.
When the Feds see how badly we "need" our little trail cams they'll figure out a way to impose a tax on them and come up with a reason to justify their existance. It's the American way.

I don't like the cameras at all and they are totally out of controll in some areas but I'll fight against any kind of regulations and taxation by the Feds. We're controlled too much as it is. We'll be taxed and regulated out hunting and the hunting business unless we decide who's really on our side.

Think about it, the same people who make a little money from the business of hunting are the same ones who have the right connections and will fight with us yet they're the very folks who some hunters want to fight against the most.

There are no easy answers here.

Good luck to us all!
Zeke
 
I pulled this link out of the Arizona forum, raffle tag buck thread. Listen to the comment made at about 13:30. Yep he said 140.....and that outfitter isn't the exception up there. Strange world we live in when we judge the quality of a guide by how many cameras he has. Nothing against the strip outfitters, they have to do it that way to be competitve, I am sure most would view some controls as a good thing, it must be exhausting to have to service all of those cameras since B&C and P&Y restrict animals from book entry if they were killed with cameras that transmit by cellular technology. What a bummer it must be to pay 200k for a tag and kill a boomer and still not have it considered a top book animal by the fair chase organizations.

http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/cus...=CabelasOutwestChannel&WTz_l=SEO;cat109817280

Ryan
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-12 AT 07:09AM (MST)[p]Who do you think will eventually cave on their "fair chase" view of trailcams?

Do you think outfitters are going to stop using cams so these bucks can be entered or do you think B&c and P&Y will eventually change their rules? My bet is B&C and P&Y will eventually cave. Technology has added miles of "gray area" to hunting ethics but its not going anywhere.

More rules don't ever sit well with the hunting community because by and large we are conservative people and we don't like more rules. We don't like living regulated lives. Yes we have our 10% who are dirtbags and push the limits but that applies to every sector of society. Theres always that 10% out there. Nothing will change that either. So... do we regulate the lives of all because 10% of us blow it? IMO the answer is no.

We are living in scary times. The long arm of the Govt wants to have a say in nearly every aspect of our lives. I don't want to give them one more thing they can use to have a say so in what I do. If outfitters are out there with 140 cams trying to find that one auction tag buck, let them freaking have it. I'd rather them take that one monster than have the govt telling me one more thing I can't do.

Auction tags have become a sore spot but I tell you what, I'd rather have 10 more auction tags per species out there than have Obama or any other politician telling me how I get to hunt.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
+1,cabinfever.You still have to hunt.The part I hate about those wealth tags is the army of spotters that are used to find and kill the critter.That is what P&Y and B&C should take a good hard look at.That behaviour is in no way shape or form...fair chase.Just my opinion.

In our society,money can buy you anything.You can buy your way out of a murder rap(O.J.),or you can buy a 440 bull;public land or high fence.In a couple of states,if you are a 200" buck or a 400" bull,your days are numbered.I may be in the minority,but it doesn't bother me in the least that some of those animals could actually die of old age.

I don't care how much money anyone has;and I don't care how they spend it.But I don't like the direction these tags are taking hunting.It's not about the hunt anymore.It's all about score and fame.Just my opinion.

I use trailcams every summer.I have never killed an animal I got on trailcam.I just get a charge out of seeing the pics!If they are outlawed,I'll deal.We don't have the problems in Wyoming that the wealth tag states have with them.

Thanks to the OP for clarifying your position on this.I don't know that restricting trailcam usage is the answer,though.I say we just do away with the auction tags.Problem solved.
 
I agree to a point also. However, the biggest "army" of spotters that I've ever seen was on a ???????DIY????????? hunt.

When you look at it closer, this is just another was of exercising our freedom. I don't like the army of spotters thing but there are lots of things I don't like but, in the name of freedom, I'll never fight against them.

Remember, we could/might/will be "regulated" right out of our way of life!

Zeke
 

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