Sad......

N

ntrl_brn_rebel

Member
Messages
84
Well I have been hunting Idaho for many years, and I believe it will now be my last......

I live a few miles from the border so yes I am a Non-Resident.......most of you will probably think, "good" and after what I have seen there will be many more non-residents and residents alike giving it up...

I watched a winter come down on the deer this past year like I have never seen before, and have seen VERY few deer thanks to it....I have talked to long time friends that live across the border from me who have hunted the area for thirty plus years saying it is the WORST they have ever seen it.....

Yet I drive down to the local convenience store yesterday after almost a week of HARD hunting and see three kids and there dad all smiles with three does loaded on the ATV trailer.....

Turns out it is perfectly legal, youth can shoot can shoot does.......not only for locals, but any non-res youth can as well for the big price of 23.75 (Jr mentored) can blast does on a unit that arguably has the best genetics in the state in HORRIBLE shape.....

I am beside myself.....I am all for youth opportunity but my god at what costs??????? Where is SFW and the Mule Deer Foundation???
The funny thing is last year IDFG sent a letter asking me what my biggest complaint was, all the while assuring me they were doing everything in your power to get the herds back up and they pull ##### like this?????

So Idaho you can kiss my A$$......it is a sad, sad day in your state.....IMO the most mis-managed state in all of the West....

I hope everyone that reads this takes five minutes to share there opinion on the subject with your local biologists, elected-officials and so forth....
 
"So Idaho you can kiss my A$$......"

wow. youre a class act that i'm sure "idaho" will truly miss. dont forget to write:)
 
I blame the mismanagment for years on the decline of deer numbers more than a bad winter, however, a bad winter coupled with mismanagement=double trouble. I do not agree with the doe tags. Nor do i agree with the 4 point or larger hunts. I have seen those units with 4 or larger hunts start to produce massive 3's in just a matter of years. It simply doesn't work. One unit particular has great genetics, but due to a 4 or larger hunt has declined because the big 3's bred more doe's which created more 3's. In controlled units not many people will put a tag on a big 3, so more continue to breed which creates more 3 points. Also, two point units are just rediculous.
now on the flip, there are some units that hold massive deer in large numbers. Controlled mind you, but still are good. Personally, i feel idaho should go controlled on all units. Just the way it is if idaho wants to increase deer numbers. Alot of people don't want this however. They like going out each year and having the opportunity to kill spikes or two points and if lucky a larger deer. Personally, i would rather have an all draw system.
 
>"So Idaho you can kiss my
>A$$......"
>
>wow. youre a class act that
>i'm sure "idaho" will truly
>miss. dont forget to write:)
>

They will definitely miss his $'s....Idaho has been taking a huge hit over the last few years with Non-Residents deciding to not hunt Idaho. And that will only mean they will need to recoup that somewhere.
 
456.50 to hunt deer is pretty steep already. I use to buy a license and apply in the draw every year. I havn't done that in 3 years now. I still apply in all the other western states. Oregon bumped up their fees and alot of hunter as well as myself are burning their points and won't be building them up again. I just had a buddy get back from South Eastern Idaho. He has hunted it alot and said it was sad to see it in the shape its in. Beautiful country with very few bucks, I hope it turns around.


BC
 
I spent some time up there as well and there were definitely more people than deer. The FULL BRIGHT MOONS every night didn't help matters either. Still some good bucks around that I saw preseason but they sure are hard to find now.

Idaho is in need of some serious management help. They are poorly managed and still produce some good animals and have the genetics to get much better. I still enjoy hunting Idaho but wish they could do a lot more for the deer population. Hunting does over the counter for youth is not the answer. With the general hunt situation they have no way of controlling how many does get popped in a given area. Bad Management

Jason Yates
http://www.BasinArcheryShop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
IDAHO IS IN A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS, THEY CANT AFFORD TO LOSE MORE HUNTERS. THE GAME DEPT. NEEDS TO MAKE DRASTIC CHANGES, I ALSO STOPPED HUNTING THERE AFTER MULTIPLE YEARS.........YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-11 AT 07:39AM (MST)[p]i will admit shooting does isn't what we need with the winter kill. however anyone that would look down on a youth hunter killing his deer weather it's a doe or forkey is a first rate ass hol* ! i am a resident and couldn't care less if non residents hunt here. i USUALLY buy a non resident extra deer tag and have bought non resident elk tags before, but see no need as i will probably not even have a remote chance of filling my resident tag. i am older and at the least have got a deer every year of my life since the age of 12. last year i ate tag soup and it looks like i will again. i think the hunting liscence fees for residents is patheticly low. with the exception of kids and seniors i would be in favor of a 75-100 $ hunting liscence. but having said that for me to continue hunting i need at least a reasonable chance at game. my honey holes that have been in my family for years are played out now. may give it up. very costly to go with gas prices the way they are.i am in agreement something needs to be done. but am NOT in favor of giving non-residents a break
 
I would say do something about it; it's easy to complain about everything and not take any action. "A wise man takes action and says nothing were a lazy man says lots and takes no action" our leaders!!!!
 
I could have written Beavis's post, save the a******e part.

Unfortunately, fish and game is not a reactive as it should be to these situations. I can't think a of govt agency that is.
 
Tyler said:

"I would say do something about it; it's easy to complain about everything and not take any action. "A wise man takes action and says nothing were a lazy man says lots and takes no action" our leaders!!!!"

Only problem is as a non-resident not much can be done.

I don't think the OP was trying to be negative towards the kids for shooting the does but instead towards the state for allowing it.

I know the residents don't care (maybe I would feel the same) but I think it will effect you at some point and not in the good way you think it will. I think it will get much worse before it gets better.

Too many people cannot see that with deer numbers the way they are coupled with habitat loss and predators and a few bad breaks (winters) does not make a good scenario for continued opportunity based management plans.

I know that some here think trophy management and point systems and drawings statewide instead of over the counter is the devil but you cannot slow the tide and that will eventually be the answer, hopefully not too late.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Good post I know a lot of people feel the same way. My boy is 14 and I wont let him shoot a doe, and he's fine with it.
 
It would be nice to see less resident and nonresident hunters shooting deer until they can get a chance to come back. If that ever happens.... And in the mean time maybe I f and g will have to tighten their belts a little?
 
I would love to see I F&G tighten their belts and start managing the game how they should.

A few years ago, i read a report that said the F&G owned more vehicles than they had employees. And I've never seen a F&G officer driving a rig more than a couple years old. but its always that way with all govt.
 
I don't want to agrue about how old or new rigs they drive, but i do know after so many miles they have to turn the rigs in for new ones and that goes back to rules and regulations. Both of which don't make sense. Just thought id point that out. But i do think that rule should be changed.
 
>Hey Reb, why didn't you hunt
>in your home state?

Well......its a long story but I am not allowed a tag this year under the dedicated hunter rule that I am a member of......two deer in a three year period......that said I will be doing my fair share of hunting here with family and friends.....

To be perfectly clear, youth opportunity means a lot to me.....I hate to see them lose any, but there gets to a point when you have to say......damn...there isn't any deer. I know a few youngsters are going to be very disappointed when they don't even see a deer..talk about getting them excited and committed to hunt for the rest of there lives.... ;-)

I would also like to point out that Idaho also allows the harvest of doe deer with general season tags during archery season in many units and if you think guys are not tipping over does you are a fool.

And believe you me.....I have sent my fair share of letters, phone calls, etc. regarding this matter.....it saddens me more than I think a lot of you will know.

Its common sense......herds are not where they should be.....the best way to give a hand is stop killing the deer factories...plain and simple.


IDFG and WOLVES....SINGLE HANDILY DESTROYING ELK AND DEER POPULATIONS IN ARGUABLY THE BEST STATE IN THE UNION.....
 
Well,the kiss my azz comment might have gone a little far, but the rest of what you said makes sense.

Guys, running off non-resident money is not going to help the situation.

Resident tag prices should go up, but right now we are getting what we pay for, which is not much.

Youth opportunities aside killing does doesn't make sense unless the habitat is full, and it isn't. It's too bad that general season, OTC tags for elk and deer, the chance to buy a second tag for both species, OTC archery antelope hunts, and a 4 week archery season and a 2-3 week rifle hunt on the same tag isn't enough opportunity, we need to shoot a few does too.
 
I am an Idaho resident and would be willing to stop hunting in this state for 5 years to get the deer and elk herds back to the way they use to be. Not even 5 years ago I remember when you could go to my "honey hole" and listen to the elk scream now all i hear are dirt bikes and wolves............sad day indeed hope things change soon.
 
Wow, and here I thought Idaho was going to be some kind of hunting nirvana. You guys aren't painting a very good picture but the truth is I would choose to hunt there even if I never pull the trigger. I am visiting Hope 4 or 5 times a year anyway and I am tired of not getting drawn in Arizona.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
maybe i am a selfish azz.....however i put up with way lower than national average wages for my trade pay state and sales tax both, and i do this because i LOVE to hunt and fish here. i want the opertunity to hunt every year. in my opinion the f&g is trying to " pimp " our herds. way to long of a season in most areas. look at 39. the animals are chased from august to december. antler restrictions DO NOT WORK if you don't believe me look at our b & c entries in the 70's -80's in the owyhees. i used to hunt there general season and we would always harvest/ see " big bucks " 4 points 25" ++++ almost every day. same as unit 22.

don't know the answers but i am not giving up hunting every year
 
I think we are missing the real issue at hand! Alaska is one of the only states that doesn't have federal control over their game populations. Idaho and Montana have let the Feds walk all over them when it comes to wolves. join the fight Im just a little E-4 in the air force I dont make a ton of money but I have found ways to do what I can go to biggameforever.com and donate even $40.00 will help! think about how many times you have wasted 40 bucks on something a whole lot worse..... and btw i used to be a Idaho resident now because of military obligations I have not lived in Idaho since 2005 but I still stay involved; even thought Im a nonresident now!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Obviously, killing does seems to make little sense given the tough conditions related to weather, predators, and habitat. What is not quite as clear is what impact license and tag fees(revenue)or lack thereof, directly have on increasing deer/elk numbers.
I don't think that the 10 million or so dollars that IFGD has lost these last few years due to declining tag sales has equated to any fewer animals available to hunters. In fact the opposite is true, declining herds have caused the department to lose that money due to hunter dissatisfaction, while fewer animals harvested due to less tag sales has preserved at least some of the herd.
The truth is that there is no dollar to game ratio that signals good or bad game management so they are rarely held accountable for bad decisions. But, when pushed to explain their need for added dollars the department heads always claim that the next tag or license increase will provide more or better hunting opportunities, otherwise hunters would not support the increases. Hard fact is rarely part of the discussion.
The only thing the department can control is tag numbers, any claim otherwise is pure fantasy. There can never be enough money spent on habitat or predator control when Mother Nature can bury the winter range under 5' of snow and ice and generations of elk and deer are wiped out in a single month.
Severe restrictions on tag numbers would seem to be the only answer...... Or at least the only factor that man can control.
CB08
 
We need a better dialoge with fish and game...

We also need some decent political clout if we want to get some things changed. It could be that most of the guys in the field at fish and game like CO's and Biologists are just as frustrated as us, but the beuracracy is too much.

Certainly in the past when we have had the CO from up north, sorry I forget his name, on here he seems to be a friend and not an enemy.
 
The F&G knew what kind of winter kill disaster they had in the Upper Snake but once again refused to take any real action and maintain status quo. Their answer was to cut 55 controlled hunt rifle buck tags in a unit (which I agree with) but still offer OTC doe tags to youth and archery hunters. Common, really?

That being said I think they can do much more than cut tags. Its all about reducing the winter kill. Get creative. How about incentivizing people to volunteer and help build the winter range. F&G doesn't have money but they do have other things they can offer...how about for every hour volunteered a person gets a Idaho Super Hunt raffle ticket.

I just get so sick of them doing the same thing.

The scary thing is I heard they are considering auctioning premiere buck tags to make quick money.
 
Can't anybody with a Idaho general tag in a general unit shoot a buck or a doe? If a doe is killed, an entire family tree dies. How many deer can one doe turn into within 10-20 years?

I think the best thing people can do is educate each other and preach about shooting only mature bucks of at least 4 years old. I know you can't expect that out of the youth, but over 18 should be able to be taught what to look for.

If only 4 year old bucks and older were killed, every year there would be a new crop of big bucks.

I realize that antler restrictions don't work very well, but it is better than nothing. Idaho's human population has grown too much in the last 10 or 20 years to expect things not to change, not to mention hard winters and wolfs.

Obviously deer age restrictions are hard to enforce and prove. What about minimum antlers outside of the ears? In AK on the Kenia Peninsula, one of the highest human populated areas of the state, they limit moose to 50 inches or better or 3 points on the brow tines. It is one of the best units in the state and does not limit the amount of hunters.

Idaho should at least start with pick your weapon. I archery hunt and would have no problem not having the opportunity to rifle hunt should I not be successful. I would eat my tag before shooting a doe or an immature buck (under 4 years old).

The bigger the buck, the more the meat, right?

And that's just my opinion. Take it for what its worth: http://www.BestforHunting.com
 
>
>The bigger the buck, the more
>the meat, right?
>
>
>


I this is my arguement everytime someone tells me they're a meat hunter.
 
One thing to consider is that the population of any given herd, be it deer, elk or antelope or anything else, can change drasticly from year to year due to disease or weather. The numbers of tags in a given unit changes only every few years. Why not change the tags a little each year up or down as the case may be?

I honestly think that most hunters, most serious hunters, notice these changes before the fish and game. Do they fly every unit every year? No. Do I hunt the same unit every year? Almost always, I can tell if there are more or less animals, more or less mature animals in a years difference. Do I always know why or how this happened? No, but I see it happening.

A fish and game cop who is no longer a fish and game cop told me that when they fly a unit, and lets say they see 10 deer in a drainage, they say, "ok, there are X amount of drainages in the unit and 10 deer per draingage." Now you have a number of deer in a unit, now you take your harvest reports, winter kill, yearly mortality due to cars, predators or what have you, and now you have this number. Next year, rinse and repeat. None of those numbers are 100% accurate, and with your possible errors, you could be way off on your estimated population by the time you fly the unit again. That's why I think we can see these changes before they do.

I am definitely in favor of changing things in Idaho. I really like the idea of pick your weapon, or even doing zones similar to general elk hunts. I personally won't shoot a doe or an immature buck, I don't mind seeing kids do it, but I saw camps in the Owyhees this year with several adults, and several forkys hanging. I get a little disappointed when I see this. I talk to all of my friends and family and try to get them to see the big picture, and as I'm sure you guys know, its not always easy.
 
you can only shoot forkys in the Owyhees.So why be disappointed to see adults hunting the only legal option. there seems to plenty of big bucks in the Owyhees so whats the problem?
 
Seems like we argued about this last year, where are all the boys that like to tell us that, IF YOU'LL JUST GET OUT OF YOUR PICK-UP TRUCK AND WALK A 100 YDS OFF YHE ROAD YOU'LL SEE HUNDREDS OF DEER!!! Absolute BS!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-11 AT 07:38AM (MST)[p]+1,000 destroyer. i agree that something needs to be done and SOON ! i already know plenty of my older friends that are seriously concidering giving up muley hunting all together. not weekend keystone swilling bubba's. hard core hunters.there aren't enough deer to warrent the expence of going.

there is nothing wrong with anybody, not just kids shooting does amd forkey horns. because it is LEGAL. not everyone lies in bed and dreams of 28 " 4 points. plenty would be happy with a fat doe or dumb forkey horn. good eats.but i only support this in ares with stable herds. mature bucks are also very tasty. if you impose a 4 point or past the ears restriction you will lose IMHO at least 75 % of the meat / family pleasure hunters. and where are we going to make that money up ???
are you trophy guys going to pay 1500 $ for a resident OTC tag ?

i go every year by graingeville and LOVE hunting whitetails. i usually buy a non-resident deer tag to hunt muleys around boise, and use my otc up north . no more. i will just hunt up there. there are tons of deer in north central idaho. and they have long either sex seasons. granted these are whitetail a different species but they live in wolf central get hunted hard probably half of the harvest is does and every year i see dozens of deer and more times than not big mature bucks. yet the f & g hardly manages these deer ....a clue maybe to our muley decline ??

like i said i don't have the answers. i am in favor of and this may draw the ire of most, SHORTNING the seasons.....for example the rifle hunt in 39 & 32 six days. monday -saturday thats it.... with very limited draws less than 50 tags. and no doe shooting period until herds stabilize or until depredation becomes a problem. i think the resource with all the new technology in hunting equipment is getting decimated. shorter seasons are in order.a co-worker saw some does up by arrowrock. he gives a vender gps location to the draw. the next morning the vender used his gps went to the draw and shot his doe.the deer hardly have a chance. think what it will be like in ten -fifteen years.

i think the " youth " hunts are getting out of hand. way too many tags.......and i would wager 50 % of the deer arent even shot by the " youth's " they are shot by dad and tagged with juniors tag. come on even some of the pics on this site show it. a 4 foot tall 80 lb. kid posing next to a full length .300 mag or something. i bet we all know people that are doing this. pull the playstation controller out of juniors hand and bribe him to " ride along ". there was never a either sex youth hunt when i was a teen and there were tons of deer. maybe another clue ??

i would pay 125-175 $ for a hunting liscence and 75-100 $ for a resident deer tag....IF i knew the money would be well used. but i feel the f & g is just in it for the money. as stated above we had a very hard winter but the doe tags hardly dropped and the seasons are open just as long as they were last year.

i also agree we need some lobbying or something. but i won't join a group that only want's to shoot 4 points.....
 
One of the problems that game agencies have is that the ability to make "on the spot" changes to tags does not exist. By the time that they have public hearings, studies, and reports it is usually too late to deal with whatever issue raised concerns.
Recently, Nevada did something interesting with their deer tags. The Wildlife Comission severly cut deer tags in almost every unit. They stated that although the biologists claimed that the deer population was stable to increasing, hunters/ranchers had reported that deer were declining and had been for years. Based on that information they cut tag numbers by a large percentage. I didn't agree with their action but I don't see that it harms the states deer herds. Sure, alot of hunters were butt hurt that they didn't draw. But at the end of the day the Comission acted in favor of preserving deer instead of taking the more popular approach of over harvesting a limited resource.
CB08
 
Email IDFG. Grousing here does little. They have a handful of biologists and there are thousands of hunters. In the past, hunters have been the ones to tip off IDFG about declines in game populations. After the bad winters in the 90s they shut down the doe hunts because the hunters kept telling them the deer numbers are down.

If they shut a hunt down again I wonder if the wolf lovers would claim a success. Sickening.
 
>Seems like we argued about this
>last year, where are all
>the boys that like to
>tell us that, IF YOU'LL
>JUST GET OUT OF YOUR
>PICK-UP TRUCK AND WALK A
>100 YDS OFF YHE ROAD
>YOU'LL SEE HUNDREDS OF DEER!!!
>Absolute BS!!!!


Just returned from an elk hunt in a general unit not known for abundant mule deer. over the four days I was hunting I observed four bucks (one of which was pretty dang decent) and a gang of does. Put the glass on an estimated forty or so elk six of which were bulls.

Idaho has got game boys. It's as simple as that.



the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
love the residents who say "See ya" attitude...the IDFG will be in trouble if they dont fix it... and your resident fees will go up ALOT!! thats not my opinion,its a fact! Your economy in all those small towns that rely on hunters and the millions they spend in the state are hurting. As of today there is 15,000!!!!!!!!!!! elk and deer tags available..u do the math and how much revenue they are losing..those use to be sold out by summer every year.
 
I saw 16 bucks in the last 4 days...all forkies but one, the one I shot.

There is some deer around, in pockets. I will agree that the quest for the all mighty dollar is a big problem for Idaho's big game.
 
I have been hunting an area that is almost no deer. I picked the area to get away from the people. Everyone is out and they are going to greater lengths to get a deer. I have never seen anyone in "my" spot. Today it was loaded with people. I have been wanting to get something with my Grandpa's gun so I shot the one and only fork horn I have seen there in the last two years.
It is getting tough to find deer. Ron
 
Mark me down as another nonresident that quit hunting Idaho. There are some great areas in Idaho and I love the state and people, but the hunting is horrible shape and way overpriced.

Worst managed state in the west, with most potential.



"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
 
LMAO...u guys saying ID is the most mismanaged state in the west??? a Big hell no! Guessing u never hunted in WA! ID has some issues,but nothing in comparison to WA or even OR! I will never give OR a dime...Ill buy in ID as the state offers great opportunity
 
Let me be the first to say that the deer herds are down right now. Not only was this past winter terrible but the several before that were hard as well. I wish we knew what the magic answer was in restoring our herds but for now we can only pray for a couple of mild winters in a row. This season so far I have passed up 14 bucks, 5 being pretty nice 4 points, with 2 of those going in the 150-160 inch range. It makes me cringe when the first answer when everybody talks about what we need to do is "make everything a controlled hunt and get a points system." This is a pretty typical year for the areas I hunt in terms of how many deer i've seen. They are general season, massively road hunted areas and I never see a soul actually on the mountain where we go. Those same people down on the road always tell me there's no deer. There are plenty of areas we won't hunt anymore because of all of the ATV access/use. It used to ruin my day (still does a bit) to see them everywhere but now I just try to use them to my benefit and go where they can't go. Those areas are becoming less and less every year. This past weekend I was looking over an area crisscrossed with roads in the bottoms, and ATV trails on each ridge and I thought to myself "man, how awesome would the hunting be here if there were no roads all over the place?" Restricting access would go a long ways towards giving the deer places to actually get away from people.

I just see way too many people not willing to get far enough away from their machines yelling for controlled hunts and points because they can't find any deer. Yes something needs to be done about our hunting situation but taking opportunity away isn't what I would like to see happen. I truly feel every year that I have a decent shot at getting a big buck, and usually see at least 1 "trophy" buck a year. Would I like to see 5 every year? Sure, but I don't live in the 60's and 70's. As GSJ said, Idaho truly does have a lot of game. I would rather take what I have now than in Idaho then what some other states have.
 
that is F&Gs take also & there are NOT alot of big bucks in the owyhees there are some good bucks & some decent bucks but neither is in abundance !!
 
You are completely off base in your assessment. You state that people just need to get off their machines and walk a little further. Wrong. I do not even own one and realize the states deer herds are in trouble. With a total of about 3 units in idaho.. which are CONTROLLED, the quality and numbers are down. Funny how it is the controlled units that are doing great. High quality buck numbers, doe's are not in short supply in those 3 units either.
To lump an opinion solely based on not walking far enough is wrong. Are there still some giants in the general units? Ya, but maybe a couple at best. Regardless of distance from a road. As a matter of a fact, the giants i witnessed where down really low, and not a buck to be found up high. Go figure. In point.. complaining about people not walking far enough is completely unbased. And this is coming from a hunter that doesn't even own an ATV. I walk my rear off.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-11 AT 12:43PM (MST)[p]+1 dreamin' for every guy that sees all the bucks everywhere they hike everytime they go ,there are a 100 guys not seeing anything. i DO know of a group that went nine for nine on 3 & 4 points by bellview.so some are definitly doing well. all i can say is it ain't no where like it used to be.

back in the 70's and 80's it would be nothing to get off work in boise and hunt up near shafer butte of ride to the danskins and knock over a buck. now goooood luck
 
our F&G dont have a clue when it comes to our deer & elk herds not sure if they dont give a crap or just plain dont know.. but they say they want 10 mature bulls per 100 cows & 10 mature bucks per 100 does..I sure dont see & sure as hell dont hear of any hunters talking about ALL the 150 160 class 4 points & 320 to 350 class bulls they pass up year after year before they shoot their trophy buck or bull...so maybe with the nonresidents not coming to Idaho that is one of F&G ways of solving the herd problems that they cant seem to fix themselves!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-11
>AT 12:43?PM (MST)
>
>+1 dreamin' for every guy that
>sees all the bucks everywhere
>they hike everytime they go
>,there are a 100 guys
>not seeing anything. i DO
> know of a group
>that went nine for nine
>on 3 & 4 points
>by bellview.so some are definitly
>doing well. all i can
>say is it ain't no
>where like it used to
>be.
>
>back in the 70's and 80's
>it would be nothing to
>get off work in boise
>and hunt up near shafer
>butte of ride to the
>danskins and knock over a
>buck. now goooood luck



Bucks still get killed every year in both areas you mention.


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
+1 GSJ, although your comment doesn't prove anything. Bucks get killed in just about every single unit every single year, but that doesn't mean that the deer herd is not suffering.

Personally, I probably saw 150+ elk this year in a general unit, in 6 days of hunting with at least 15 bulls, one of which i missed... But in all the miles i walked and hours i glassed, I saw maybe 15 deer, 4 bucks and not even one was a four point. Can you tell me where are the deer? Yes there are deer, but all everyone is saying is that the numbers are not what they used to be. Anyone who believes there are NOnanimals needs to hunt harder, but there aren't as many as there once was.
 
Agree, Idabow. Mulies in general are and have been for many years in a downward trend throughout the west. Idaho is not alone. The biggest factor by far is of course weather. We're coming off back to back heavy winter kill years and the couple prior to that were no picnic. No management plan in the world will ever prevent a hard winter I'm sorry to tell you. Develpoment of winter range/migration corridors, predation, and so on. Hunting is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Some "experts" believe mule deer are on their way out from an evolutionary standpoint.

Thats not to say I don't think a better job could be done by IDFG. Emergency tag cuts/closures, antler restrictions, shorter seasons, more intensive management on a region by region basis should all be on the table. F&G is too slow to act sometimes when action is needed.

I'm not gonna B*itch too loud though, F&G has given me the opportunity to hunt and be successful EVERY SINGLE YEAR of my hunting life. No other western state gives you that so be damn carful what you wish for if you are a hunter.

Not to mention EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US has the power to "manage" ourselves and conduct our hunts how we feel is appropriate. You think mulies are in trouble? Quit hunting them. Or at least set a goal of only taking mature bucks. There is no reason in the world a veteran hunter should be hammering forked horns.

I personally have little trouble finding game. I just report my experiences and observations. I draw my conclusions and opinions based on what I see in the field.

Things are not as bad as most of you are saying. A couple mild winters would go a long way. Lets hope for the best.

BTW, even though we disagree on some of this, It's easy to tell everyone here cares and that fact alone makes you all good guys in my book.


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Well said! I agree a lot with lots of things said in this thread. I don't believe it's doomsday yet. I am greatful for the chance to hunt deer every year in Idaho and simply want to keep that. I see lots of game every year and hope that our deer herds can make a comeback. Here's to a mild winter!
 
If Idaho has game you should hunt some other western states youd think you were in heaven.LMAO
 
In as recent as 07 the population seemed to be doing well it seemed. That year we had a strong storm push the bucks down and hunter success was quite high even on older bucks. Now four seasons later, we have had two bad winters so the recruitment has been bad. As I mentioned on another thread, on Sunday I saw 40+ deer on the mountain during the day including 12 bucks. Very few young forkies(yearlings). I have three other friends who hunted areas where they saw WAY less than the normal amount of deer for this week of the month.

Almost every doe we saw had twins. All looked great. All were eating good even up at 8000' as much of the brush that normally would not have leaves on it still did due to nice weather and late spring. This all means less pressure on wintering grounds, where they might be now in normal years. On the way home in the dark we saw 4 groups of at least 10-12 does/fawns moving downhill. Each of those groups had a bunch of fawns. So, why these are not birds that can do multiple hatches and go from 20 year lows to record highs in 1 or 2 years, yes the populations can be fairly resiliant weather permitting. I still say weather and wintering grounds is the biggest factor, not 12 year old kids chasing does.

We did see three shooter bucks(20"+) 4pt's, but could not get the right stalk. We didn't feel bad this year due to the comments on this thread. None of those bucks were over 4, so giving them another year or two will be great if others will do the same.
 
GSJ, I agree with everything you just said.

I won't shoot an immature buck or a doe. I was within range of both during archery and didn't even nock an arrow. This is why earlier in the thread I said that I am disappointed with the people, adults who hunt forked horns. The amount of people who drive from all over the state to hunt in 2point only areas is slightly disturbing for people who are concerned with numbers and quality. I live in the Owyhees and didn't even consider hunting around home. I will hold my tag for a chance at a mature buck.

BPK i don't think the "12 year old kids chasing does" is the problem. Its some of the units with 1000+ controlled doe tags, and unlimited doe archery any sex tags. Those are much bigger problems. I said before that I don't have a problem with youth hunts for does and forkys.
 
But who are you to judge an adult for shooting a forkie. Its not illegal in certain units. That's your choice to pass on them, but don't look down on a person for following the rules and putting meat in the freezer. Not everyone is a horn hunter. Could it help herd numbers to pass on them? I guess it would. But, if a person wants meat and not antlers, who are you to judge? Especially if the buck is taken well within the confines of the law. That's their choice, as you have your choice to pass. Until fish and game says its illegal, then the forkies will be harvested.
 
>But who are you to judge
>an adult for shooting a
>forkie. Its not illegal in
>certain units. That's your choice
>to pass on them, but
>don't look down on a
>person for following the rules
>and putting meat in the
>freezer. Not everyone is a
>horn hunter. Could it help
>herd numbers to pass on
>them? I guess it would.
>But, if a person wants
>meat and not antlers, who
>are you to judge? Especially
>if the buck is taken
>well within the confines of
>the law. That's their choice,
>as you have your choice
>to pass. Until fish and
>game says its illegal, then
>the forkies will be harvested.
>

I agree. Everyone has there own choice to make.

But don't bigger bucks have more meat on them?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-11 AT 07:37AM (MST)[p]big bucks BREED.......and pass on genetics. so ******** sick of the snobish attitude with hunters these days. only " THEY " hunt the right way know whats best ect. oh don't shoot anything unless it is 25 "+.

it is LEGAL to shoot forkeys at any age ! legal to shoot does at any age. do i think it is the greatest idea to be shooting up all the does with the bad winter kill, NO !. but i support people who take there LEGAL opertunities. as for the youth hunts i am opposed to them. they should hunt just as everyone else, if they lose interest because they don't get to kill something everytime they go out and don't hunt anymore all the better.

shooting all the mature bucks in a herd and leaving the all the breeding to forkey's isn't good game management either. i would be in favor of 3 day draw hunts AFTER the rut for mature bucks for this reason. does can't breed themselves
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-11
>AT 07:37?AM (MST)
>
>big bucks BREED.......and pass on genetics.
>so ******** sick of the
>snobish attitude with hunters these
>days. only " THEY "
>hunt the right way know
>whats best ect. oh don't
>shoot anything unless it is
>25 "+.
>
>it is LEGAL to shoot forkeys
>at any age ! legal
>to shoot does at any
>age. do i think it
>is the greatest idea to
>be shooting up all the
>does with the bad winter
>kill, NO !. but i
>support people who take there
>LEGAL opertunities. as for the
>youth hunts i am opposed
>to them. they should hunt
>just as everyone else, if
>they lose interest because they
>don't get to kill something
>everytime they go out and
>don't hunt anymore all the
>better.
>
>shooting all the mature bucks in
>a herd and leaving the
>all the breeding to
>forkey's isn't good game management
>either. i would be in
>favor of 3 day draw
>hunts AFTER the rut for
>mature bucks for this reason.
>does can't breed themselves


This board really needs a face palm icon.............;)


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
This is a plan that I and some good people put together. It is not perfect, but it is a start.

IDAHO MULE DEER RECOVERY PLAN

The IDAHO MULE DEER RECOVERY PLAN is an agressive 10 year restructure of Idaho mule deer hunting. The goal is to double the herd in some units and increase the age of our mule deer bucks. The IMDRP would like to focus on units in southeast Idaho. This area is in the greatest decline.

Southeast Idaho has the potential to grow some of the largest mule deer bucks in North America....Back in it's day Southeast Idaho was kicking out huge record book bucks on a regular basis. We realize that to return to the glory days is very difficult and may not be possible, however, it is possible to increase the population of the herd, and also the age of our bucks. When we reach that point, we are well on our way to achieving our goal.

1. Stop all antlerless hunts in every unit in southeast Idaho for a minimum of five years. This is one of the most important things we can do to increase our herd. Stop harvesting the animals that make the babies. Fawn survival is the key to any recovery. The Fish and Game are not trying to increase the herd size. This is proven by the continued harvest of female deer. They are however, interested in the buck to doe ratio and how they are attempting to get their number, is not by increasing the amount of bucks, but by lowering the amount of antlerless deer.

2. Idaho needs to stop harvesting the young 2 points and let them mature. The IMDRP would like to make half of the general season units 3 point or better for 5 years. Then swap the units and make the other half 3 point or better for 5 years. At the end of the 10 year period we can do a unit evaluation and either repeat or go back to any buck. This will give the young bucks a chance to mature and also give our kids and the casual hunter plenty of opportunity to harvest. 70 to 80 percent of the buck harvest each year over the last 10 years has been 2 point bucks in the general units. IMDRP believes we can put some age on these bucks with this plan and keep the units in the general hunt, (over the counter tag.). We need to change the thinking of our hunters here in Idaho. We really should not have to change the rules and regs for this to happen. It's a decision and a choice not to harvest the little buck or doe. This should be taught to our younger generation.

A little more catch and release for a few years will increase the population and put some age on our bucks.

3. The IMDRP does not believe the elk population is affecting the deer population as much as the amount of domestic sheep and cattle on our summer and winter range.

4. The predators we have here in Idaho are many: the lion, coyote and the wolf need to be managed in a more aggressive manner.

The lion will kill a deer a week and sometimes more. There are a few hundred lions in southeast Idaho. The amount of deer killed by lions annually in Idaho is in the thousands. The wolf is doing as much damage as the lion....the wolf is an APEX Predator and is very good at kiilling big game, that's what he does!!!! The deer, elk and moose are all in decline wherever the wolf lives... bottom line is, we need to harvest more dogs and cats...and we need to do this now!!!

It is our goal to be able to go up on the mountain and see a 100 deer in a day with 20 being bucks and several being mature 4 or 5 year old bucks. The states that surround us have herds that are like what I have described. They manage their deer better than Idaho.

The Idaho Mule Deer herd is less than half of what it was in the early 90's. The Idaho mule deer herd is just a shell of what it once was.

WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT !!!!! See the IDAHO MULE DEER RECOVERY PLAN on facebook under causes . become a member and help us achieve this goal. We are almost to 500 members in a very short time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-11 AT 02:39PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-11 AT 02:37?PM (MST)

so non trophy hunters have to wait ten years to hunt during your plan ? na, i will pass

you can't control the single greatest threat to mule deer. it is 1000 % impossible. and that is mother nature. you could implement your plan and have one bad winter and start at square one again.

opinions are like you know what..here is mine

and granted i know the name of this website is " monster muleys" and not " fat does and little 3 points "

#1- choose your weapon

i base this on animals getting hunted to death for months at a time. should have been done years ago. imho

#2- shorten rifle seasons

with the new technology, gps, crystal clear optics, turrets for shooting out to 700 yards plus, and allright...ATV'S in some cases :) and other items, the deer are getting pounded. five to six days is plenty. this will also lower the # of deer harvested but allowing for a every year opertunity. maybe 3 day seasons.

#3- reduce harvest of " mature " bucks in draw units and move those hunts out of the rut

ask any biologist mature male animals are very important to a herd. let them breed the does. as i said before they can't breed themselvs. issue fewer tags for mature animals.

#4- get the F& g financialy responcible

raise hunting, fishing liscence ,tag fees for residents very dramaticly. with the exception of youths, seniors, and disabled hunters. we have got to make them financialy sound. otherwise they will keep trying to issue 1000 doe tags in down deer years.no point systems or non resident breaks. if they don't like it they can stay home.

#5 kill preditory animals

this i am 100 % in agreement with. someone made a comment that a coyote tail ect. should have to be presented before a deer tag is issued. i like it.

is my plan flawed....yep, it is but there are WAY more people who just want a fun family hunt then trophy hunters. no way you will gain support by taking there oppertunity away. they buy way more tags. i like to shoot mature deer too ! but when the end of the season is near forkey's beware ! if you don't like that tough !
 
The main focus right now in the IMDRP is on the general units. The controlled units have flaws but are doing better than the general units. However late rut hunts in southeast units could be reduced. The shorter season is a good idea as well. This plan allows for the youth and the casual hunter to harvest 2 point bucks ...just not in every general unit every year. Example of this would be Units 69 and 76 are 3 point or better for 5 years. Units 66 and 67 are any buck for 5 years and then a rotation. You will not have to wait 10 years for anything. This plan caters to every type of hunter other than the antlerless hunter. However once we meet the new population objectives antlerless hunts could continue. We need to double the herd size in most units and triple the herd in a few units . The Mule deer population in Idaho is half of what it should be , and is half of what it was pre 80s.

I have a question for everyone ????

If a 2 point buck's Daddy was a 210" 35" wide 4 x 4 and his Mother was from the same type of genetics. And this 2 point was breeding, would he be passing on 2 point genetics or the genetics of his parents
 
That forky would be passing on his genes, not his parents.

I'm no geneticist but I did take Biology 101. Just because you have two genetically superior parents doesn't mean their progeny will be superior. Thats true when you outcross plants or animals. Mutations occur, some genes are homozygous, heterozygous and recessive so when crossed they're expressed differently. This all alters the genetic composition. Its not just a 50:50 mix of genes.

Expose that deer to the elements of the environment and allow natural selection to occur
 
Beavis,

How would non trophy hunters have to wait 10 years to hunt under the IMDRP? Just no does and 3 pt or better. There's a ton of immature bucks that are 3 pt or better. You could hunt every year, you'd just be required to shoot a 3 pt. This has been done in WA and dramatically helped herds that were hurting from bad winter kills in the 90's. Don't see why that rule would hurt here.

I think the 3 pt or better rule would be great here in ID. Doesn't reduce seasons or opportunity, just limits what you can tag. Raises buck to doe ratios, increases maturity, and raises trophy potential. I really don't see any downside. If you want to shoot a doe, then create REASONABLE anterless quotas and do it as a controlled hunt. If you really don't care about trophy hunting that much, you should be just as happy giving up your opportunity to kill a buck of any size in order to kill a fat doe.

Mike
 
I like the reduced doe hunt ideas. Do the math. For simplicity sake assume every doe killed is a mature doe. Every mature doe has twins. For every 500 does killed this year that is 1500 less deer for next year. How many bucks comes out of those 1000 lost deer?

The best example I can give on numbers of deer is in unit 39. In years past during Xmas we'd take out of state relatives up to Spring Shores and count the deer. Use to be 100's. Now you hardly see any. We quit the tradition of going up there because there really isn't anything to see anymore.

1000 doe permits and last year's "survey" in that unit were 19 bucks per 100 does. If they are looking for 10 does per buck they should stop the doe hunt- objective met. (If I were a buck I'd be complaining too).
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-11 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]Right off the top I see a couple of issues with some of the "plans" being mentioned here.

1) I have been told that hunters who are interested in antler size are in the minority. That most hunters in Idaho just want a season to get away with family and come home with a deer...any deer, buck or doe, most don't care as long as they shoot something, put meat in the freezer and carry on the tradition. Trophy hunters will never dictate how the state's units are run. Just look at how many of our units are now managed for older age class bucks...
If the folks I know at work and around town are any example, this statement is more true than not.

2) Farmers and ranchers have the most pull with F&G. They are organized, and have huge lobbying power all the way to the top of the statehouse. A lot of them do not want the deer numbers of the past, or anything close to it. They don't want the hassles or the headaches of huge deer herds competing with the limited range resources....let alone winter depredation...both of which cut straight into their bottom line.

3) Sure the human encroachment on the winter ranges has slowed during the recession of the last 4 years but people shutting down the winter range has got to be one our worst problems. The middle ground and the high country can be perfect with ample rain and excellent forage but if the winter range is gone or inaccessible the deer are done.

Just a few thoughts here, F&G has got a tough job, managing wildlife ecosystems, and all the different types of people and their wants.

I personally would love to see 6-10 units managed for truly mature bucks, instead of the couple 1-or 2 we have now. In fact, I might even consider paying a premium for the trophy privilege of those hunts.
 
I don't think raising the prices is going to help. Look at all the decline in deer tags sold this year and thats only because of how people feel about the numbers of deer, now add a dramatic price increase and see what that does...

Greatbasin- I am mostly in agreement with what you said, but most of the farmers and ranchers get landowner tags, and they are worth a pretty penny. If the quality of animals were higher, with more opportunity, those tags would become worth even more. How much are tags worth now? $5k, $10k, more? I think the farmers and ranchers can make up for their losses with that?
 
Exactly right Muleys24Seven...

To further answer the question, the 2 point deer will pass the same genetics he received from his mother and father for his whole life, as a 2 point all the way to his downhill slide.(Whether they are good or not as Muleys24Seven described.)

But, he may produce several big offspring or only one or none.

Even if he always breeds the same doe, his offspring may differ greatly. You can see examples of this in people, same mom, same dad, 3 kids that look nothing alike or 3 kids that look almost identical. There are a million factors that can affect the outcome, but the more superior genes in the mix, the better the outcome will be.
 
Some folks will argue that if a 2 point breeds, he is passing on 2 point genetics. I do not agree with that.
 
>I don't think raising the prices
>is going to help. Look
>at all the decline in
>deer tags sold this year
>and thats only because of
>how people feel about the
>numbers of deer, now add
>a dramatic price increase and
>see what that does...
>
>Greatbasin- I am mostly in agreement
>with what you said, but
>most of the farmers and
>ranchers get landowner tags, and
>they are worth a pretty
>penny. If the quality of
>animals were higher, with more
>opportunity, those tags would become
>worth even more. How much
>are tags worth now? $5k,
>$10k, more? I think the
>farmers and ranchers can make
>up for their losses with
>that?

I don't want higher prices either, but if they could justify making more units trophy quality, I might consider it.

I'm not saying it dosen't happen but isn't selling landowner tags not allowed?
 
>LMAO...u guys saying ID is the
>most mismanaged state in the
>west??? a Big hell no!
>Guessing u never hunted in
>WA! ID has some issues,but
>nothing in comparison to WA
>or even OR! I will
>never give OR a dime...Ill
>buy in ID as the
>state offers great opportunity


Hunted Washington last 15 yrs and someone in my family has taken a 20"+ four point every year. My son and I have taken 9 bear there in the last 5 yrs. I have hunted Idaho the last two, My son has taken two 4 points and I've shot a 2x3 this year and passed on 3-2 points last year here. Between Idaho and Washington, Washington has way more game, Idaho has a way better gene pool but mainly in draw units. I see Idaho changing its laws to what Washington has now in order to protect what game it has or it will be a draw only state. I hope they go the way Washington did.
 

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