Save San Juan County (San Juan Unit)

Done

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
thank you to both of you. please pass the web address along to family and friends. we can't let this go through
 
Hey rancher,

are you one of the ranchers that showed up to the Wildlife Board meeting whining and crying and demanding all the elk be killed off?
 
Signed it for you. IMO it is your representatives to blame, not Obama if a monument is designated. Jason Chaffetz and Rob Bishop had 3 years to come up with a decent plan and chose to roll out a peace of crap that's too late to get through congress anyway. They thought they'd run out the clock on this administration. They had their chance and they failed to adequately protect the area with a decent plan. The PLI is a joke, and it's gonna get treated like one. Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz chose to play politics, and Obama isn't leaving office without the area protected. Blame your representatives just as much as those on the other side, because they're just as much to blame.
 
Let me first say---I oppose the executive designation of the Bears Ears as a national monument.

But this quote perked my interest:

"we need to keep our freedom's alive for us and for future generations to come."

What specific freedoms are you worried will be killed for future generations?
 
Too late, already signed on to save Bears Ears FROM San Juan County and the self-righteous kingdom of Utah. Looking forward to Monument status, because Utah sucks @ protecting my federal property. Something about a $100K atv trip up Recapture ring a bell? It was all US property before there ever was a San Juan County.

How about this: every lying Utard who has proclaimed that Monument status will end hunting, agrees not to ever apply to hunt on the new Monument. Nobody believes that bullsh!t propaganda, so STFU. And prepare a nice welcome for the National Park Service.
 
>Let me first say---I oppose the
>executive designation of the Bears
>Ears as a national monument.
>
>
>But this quote perked my interest:
>
>
>"we need to keep our freedom's
>alive for us and for
>future generations to come."
>
>What specific freedoms are you worried
>will be killed for future
>generations?

They are worried about losing the freedoms that Mike Lee, Chaffetz, Bishop, and Hatch have fear mongered them into believing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-16 AT 09:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-16 AT 09:37?PM (MST)

>Too late, already signed on to
>save Bears Ears FROM San
>Juan County and the self-righteous
>kingdom of Utah. Looking forward
>to Monument status, because Utah
>sucks @ protecting my federal
>property. Something about a $100K
>atv trip up Recapture ring
>a bell? It was all
>US property before there ever
>was a San Juan County.
>
>
>How about this: every lying Utard
>who has proclaimed that Monument
>status will end hunting, agrees
>not to ever apply to
>hunt on the new Monument.
>Nobody believes that bullsh!t propaganda,

>so STFU. And prepare a
>nice welcome for the National
>Park Service.
While I agree Utahs so called "protection" of lands sucks and their view on public land is even more pathetic, the park service won't be managing it. It will still be managed by the BLM. Rob Bishop and Mike Lee to of the opposers of this designation have a proven track record of not giving a rats ass about public land, protecting wildlife habitat, or giving two shits about access for the public. If rancho is just echoing their BS, then I agree STFU. I think it's okay as is under BLM managment, but Utahs stupid land transfer idea gets me closer to loving monument designations every day.

Also I love how monuments are turned into a liberal agenda. EVERY president except for 2 since it became a power have used the power to creat national monuments and many of them were republicans. This is not a liberal agenda, this is a failure of your local Utah representatives to show sincerity when "collaborating."
 
Given the two choices, give the land to Utah via their land grab push or make it a monument...I will take the monument thank you. I think the area is incredible and holds a very special place in my heart (the first place I took my son on a elk hunt (cow)). I have a strong belief that if Utah was to be successful in the federal land grab attempt most people would loose access to these types of areas. It has been my experience that many locals believe it's "their mountain". In reality, it belongs to all of us and we need to do everything possible to keep it that way.

I wish we could leave it the way it is but the push to get all federal lands has caused this crisis.
 
Utah400elk,

You nailed one important thing here- the land grab proponents will never accept accountability for their role in these new designations out west, but they play one.

Just like President Obama has been the best friend to the pocket books of gun manufacturers, Ken Ivory and his boys are the favorite sons of those that favor national monument designation.
 
This is actually very true. If the states weren't pushing a full front attack on our public lands, maybe monument designations wouldn't be necessary but I'm becoming a bigger fan of them every day. To anyone living in San Juan county, I signed against it for you, but here's the bottom line you need to understand. This is not your land, it is not your decision. There is obvious support for monument designation by people outside of SUWA despite what locals and politicians want to say. BOTH sides of this argument have been very dishonest in presenting the facts on the amount of support for the monument. This is federally managed land, and there is every right to designate it a monument when congressionally or through the executive power. My guess is it's going to happen, so buck up and get involved in the planning process because your process just screwed yourself into a monument. There are two very odd places in this country, Texas and Utah, and it isn't that those two places are right and the rest of the world is wrong, it's that they have this delusional self serving, anti-government roots that just block most of their population from logical thinking. In Utah we all know what that logical block is. Texas I guess there's just something in the water or maybe the lack thereof.
 
Nothing wrong in Texas or with Texans. Water there is just fine. It is about 95% PRIVATE land in Texas - and we'd like to keep it that way. Nothing in the water - something about owning your own ground and trying to keep the government's(at all levels) hands off and nose out of just appeals to some folks...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 09:02AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 08:56?AM (MST)

Again it goes back to the hate of the government. Lawrence, keeping the government out of our lives isn't a bad thing. The thing is 99% of the public isn't going to be the ones purchasing public land when it's put up for sale. See there are 640 million acres to experience in this country for you, me, and anyone else inside or outside of our countries borders. Those 640 million are uniquely American, and some bought politicians with velvet soft hands and pale never seen the sun skin aren't going to tell me they deserve to be the masters of it and it should be sold. Some idiot like Ted Cruz doesn't know anything about public land so he can STFU and take his ball and go home to Texas and spread his political BS he knows nothing about there. Anytime I hear him speak on public land I want to throw up. Aside from getting too far off track, yeah there's something wrong with any member of the public that wants to give away 640 million acres they effectively own for nothing to politicians who will benefit them and a few of their friends... Oh wait that's "conservative" so you'll buy it, sorry I forgot. Cause nothing says conservative like dumping 640 million acres of a valuable resource. Never knew conservative meant using things up as fast as you possibly can at the lowest possible price. Sorry I forgot again, a conservative told you it was conservative so it must be... Okay I better shut up now, I don't know anything about being conservative I'll leave that up to the politicians that spoon feed you.
 
Hold up Oneye, I'd make Brother John Birch look like a flaming lib. I'm all for keeping public lands public - I've enjoyed them in Colorado, Wyoming & New Mexico for three decades. My comment was strictly in response to your denigrating remark about Texas. I see you couldn't handle that and are bubbling over with even more invective. This is why I've followed this site for years and only have 150 or so posts. I'm done on this thread.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 09:45?AM (MST)

>Hold up Oneye, I'd make Brother
>John Birch look like a
>flaming lib. I'm all
>for keeping public lands public
>- I've enjoyed them in
>Colorado, Wyoming & New Mexico
>for three decades. My
>comment was strictly in response
>to your denigrating remark about
>Texas. I see you
>couldn't handle that and are
>bubbling over with even more
>invective. This is why
>I've followed this site for
>years and only have 150
>or so posts. I'm done
>on this thread.
My comment wasn't directed at every Texan nor Utahn. My comment was directed at those with the attitudes of some that this is their country, it should remain completely the same as it was 100 years ago, and be damned if society decides to change or learn anything. Be damned if you like clean air, clean water, or federal public lands. Hell be damned if you like anything the federal government does is the attitude of a lot of people. The federal government sucks in a lot of ways, but just because they suck in most ways doesn't mean they suck in every way. Our country luckily has a variety of cultures and geographic differences, so anyone in the western states who doesn't like the fact there's public land has every right to move to Texas where there is basically no public land. No one is keeping you here. Don't like federal public land? Move away from it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 01:05PM (MST)[p]http://www.bearsearscoalition.org/action/

Here you go, everyone deserves their voice to be heard.
 
The Freedoms we are talking about is Hunting, Camping, gathering wood, and enjoying the outdoors. Yes we will still be able to camp, hunt, and gather wood. But NM status has shown over the years that you will have to pay to do these things. You will have to camp in designated camping areas, pay a fee. You will be able to gather wood, but will have to get it in designated areas, limiting access. You will be able to hunt, again they will eventually reduce the hunting numbers and hunting structure. I guess we have been spoiled down here where we havent had to camp in designated area, or pay fees to enjoy the outdoors.
Now I am not for the PLI either, I am for keeping it the way it is and has been.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 04:09PM (MST)[p]pufftuffly,
no that wasn't me. i'm a utah resident that feels the land should be left as is. nothing is broken, don't fix it. i'm just doing my part as a concerned citizen that doesn't even live in San Juan County.
 
Vanilla,
Cantkillathing pretty much summed it up in his post. i'd like to add that our freedoms are slowly being taken away. little by little. the PLI or Monument isn't necessary in my opinion. I can't speak for the good people that live by the monument - grand stair case but they know better than anyone what a monument can do to a small community.
thanks to those who signed.
 
Do you have any examples out west where a national monument has eventually reduced hunting numbers or structure?

I'll say again, I completely oppose this designation for my own reasons. But I'm also concerned with factual information. So I'm looking for answers to some of the claims on both sides.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]>The Freedoms we are talking about
>is Hunting, Camping, gathering wood,
>and enjoying the outdoors.
>Yes we will still be
>able to camp, hunt, and
>gather wood. But NM
>status has shown over the
>years that you will have
>to pay to do these
>things. You will have
>to camp in designated camping
>areas, pay a fee.
>You will be able to
>gather wood, but will have
>to get it in designated
>areas, limiting access. You will
>be able to hunt, again
>they will eventually reduce the
>hunting numbers and hunting structure.
> I guess we have
>been spoiled down here where
>we havent had to camp
>in designated area, or pay
>fees to enjoy the outdoors.
>
>Now I am not for the
>PLI either, I am for
>keeping it the way it
>is and has been.

Camp in a FS Campground, you pay $10. Camp at State Park campground, you pay $30 (Heck, to use Bear Lake State Park, Antelope Island State Park, Hyrum State Park, Deadhorse State Park, etc... it costs money just to walk around). Camp on unimproved FS land, free. Camping on unimproved State land is often banned altogether. Gather firewood on FS land, buy a permit. Gather firewood on State land, banned or leased out to the highest bidder. Hunt on FS land, governed by DWR. Hunt on National Monument land, governed by DWR. Hunt on SITLA land, governed by DWR (unless they've leased it to somebody else and then its closed to public access/hunting).

There's my response to your "camp, hunt, and gather wood" comments. I see no discernible benefits to state-ownership and plenty of negative repercussions.

We can go back to wolves, and rehash that too. Or we can go back to coal mining and oil/gas drilling and we can point out that the Feds still control that regardless of NM status. The Feds just issue administrative orders or environmentalists get judges to issue rulings under clean water and clean air acts or using the ESA. So those arguments are indefensible as well.

If the land grab fraudsters really want to stop "gubment overreach" they can change the laws that allow it (clean water and clean air acts and ESA). Instead they ignore the actual cause of the "problem" and tell you they'll sell/lease the land to somebody else and hope you don't notice that won't have any influence on the actual laws and therefore can't actually change anything... except make their buddies rich (you know, the same buddies that gave the lawmakers $100,000 just to defraud the citizens in the first place).

I see what is going on and I have nothing but contempt for those trying to pull this scheme off for their own personal gains.

Grizzly
 
Dinosaur, CO ? With the opening of hunting seasons on lands surrounding Dinosaur National Monument, hunters are reminded that hunting is not permitted in the monument. Although most of the monument boundary is well marked, hunters are responsible for ensuring they do not hunt within the monument.
 
How about we leave Colorado out of this and only consider Utah (unless you want to talk about adjacent states and their laws, then we might as well discuss Wyoming where all camping is forbidden on state land)

As you will see below. Bears Ears NM has much more lenient hunting, camping, and access laws than much of Utah's current state land. Even hunting on State land can be specifically revoked by the Trust Lands Administration at their sole discretion. Also, notice that the State considers camping on state land a "privilege" and not a "right" and that you can not just pull off the side of the road as is allowed on Forest Service land.

----------------

Bears Ears National Monument proposal FAQ:

"Will I be able to hunt?

Yes. Hunting will be allowed and permits will continue to be managed by the State of Utah?s Division of Wildlife Resources."

Will I still be able to camp, hike, backpack, climb, build camp fires, pick pine nuts, mountain bike, bring pets, ride my horse, or drive my ATV?

Yes. All of these activities will continue to be allowed if Bears Ears becomes a national monument or NCA."

-----OR-----

Utah Admin. Rule R651-614
Hunting any wildlife is prohibited within
the boundaries of all state park areas, except
those designated open to hunting by the
Division of Parks and Recreation in Utah Admin.

Rule R651-614-4.
Hunting with rifles, handguns or muzzleloaders
in park areas designated open to hunting is
prohibited within one mile of all park facilities, including
buildings, camp or picnic sites, overlooks,
golf courses, boat ramps and developed beaches.
Hunting with shotguns or archery tackle
is prohibited within one-quarter mile of the
above areas.

------OR-------

Camping is allowed on most trust lands throughout the state for up to 15 consecutive days. Any use longer than 15 days requires that you obtain a right of entry permit. Protect your privilege to camp on trust lands by observing the following:

- Limit camping to existing campsites.
- Firewood may be removed from trust lands through permit only.


Grizzly
 
a little bit of facts and knowledge on the western lands debate. Often people think that the land currently being mismanaged by the federal government (Forrest service, BLM, and Park service) is public land. This is only partly true, most all "public land" has joint ownership. When western settlers began establishments the standard 160 acre farm just didn't support a family as it did back east, so land rights became fractured. Instead of claiming a small piece of land and putting a private property sign up, people just claimed what they wanted and left the rest "public" For example the cowboy claimed the grass, the farmer claimed the water rights, the oil company claimed the oil, the miner claimed the minerals, the local state claimed the wildlife and the county claimed the roads. These claims became recognized as ownership rights. For over 100 years we have been buying and selling grazing, mineral, water and oil rights. The people owned these resources before the government ever existed! It is illegal and immoral for the federal government to kick us off the land and or prohibit our using and accessing these resources. This is why they have resorted to tactics such as making administration rules with the intent "so as to fatigue us into compliance (submission)"-declaration of Independence
People have tried to paint the picture that the government is the land owner and we are merely leasing the land at extremely low rates on a year to year basis. This is false! We own the resources! we have purchased them with blood and cash from private parties who owned them before the BLM or Forrest service ever existed. We have agreed to pay grazing and mineral fees which originally were used to enhance the range and protect our legal rights. These fees were essentially the same thing as why you pay property taxes. Would you be offended if someone accused you of being given a house for only the price of your property taxes? How would you feel if the ignorant populace justified stealing your home because it only cost you the price of the property tax and your really not out much?
The federal government telling us when and how we can use our resources is just as offensive to us as it would be if the government were to come to your house (where you hold the property title) and tell you that you are not allowed to use your drive way, water your lawn, have bunk beds in your kids room, forced to remove any cooking appliances that get hotter than 212 degrees, water heaters bigger than 20 gallons or water faucets that run more than 2 gallons per minute....essentially rendering your property rights useless.
As western land users we have endured years and years of mistreatment. We have sued for redress and it has fallen on ignorant and tyrannical ears. What the federal government has done in stealing our rights and kicking us off our God given lands is evil.
"when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing
invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce
them (us) under absolute Despotism, it is their (our) Right, it
is their (our) Duty, to throw off such Government." -Declaration of Independence 1774

If you support a national monument you don't support just the theft of our property rights but you also support a tyrant, or the power to create a tyrant. Our property rights have been weakened in the past, this monument will practically nullify them as has been the case in the Grand Staircase.
 
>
>If you support a national monument
>you don't support just the
>theft of our property rights
>but you also support a
>tyrant, or the power to
>create a tyrant. Our property
>rights have been weakened in
>the past, this monument will
>practically nullify them as has
>been the case in the
>Grand Staircase.


That was more than a little bit of "fact". Thanks for the word salad.

The OPINION and rhetoric in this post are off base in many respects. This line of reasoning and thinking is shared by many of our state reps. and is part of why this monument is being put forth as a solution.

Given the state's wonderful track record and their stated objectives of transferred ownership of federal land, I'm not so sure I don't want said land to have an extra layer of protection from the threats that the state has levied against federal lands in Utah.

I support private property rights as well as continued and enhanced public use on what is currently owned and administered by the awful Feds.

I don't necessarily support the actual procedure and act of monument designation(mainly because of the seemingly ever increasing power of the executive branch). But I'm not that opposed to the actual environmental protections that the monument entails.

Grazing and mineral "improvements" do not qualify someone to gain ownership to publicly accessible lands. The ownership rights you are discussing are narrow and would apply to benefit "the few" to the exclusion of the many. The great thing about the access we currently enjoy is that it is totally available to anyone. .

Call me a communist, supporting a tyrant, etc. But I don't really feel bad for my state when a monument is proposed that they have had every chance to provide adequate protections for and have fought tooth and nail against doing anything remotely conservation oriented.
 
> a little bit of facts
>and knowledge on the western
>lands debate. Often people think
>that the land currently being
>mismanaged by the federal government
>(Forrest service, BLM, and Park
>service) is public land. This
>is only partly true, most
>all "public land" has joint
>ownership. When western settlers began
>establishments the standard 160 acre
>farm just didn't support a
>family as it did back
>east, so land rights became
>fractured. Instead of claiming a
>small piece of land and
>putting a private property sign
>up, people just claimed what
>they wanted and left the
>rest "public" For
>example the cowboy claimed the
>grass, the farmer claimed the
>water rights, the oil company
>claimed the oil, the miner
>claimed the minerals, the local
>state claimed the wildlife and
>the county claimed the roads.
>These claims became recognized as
>ownership rights. For over 100
>years we have been buying
>and selling grazing, mineral, water
>and oil rights. The people
>owned these resources before the
>government ever existed! It is
>illegal and immoral for the
>federal government to kick us
>off the land and or
>prohibit our using and accessing
>these resources. This is why
>they have resorted to tactics
>such as making administration rules
>with the intent "so as
>to fatigue us into compliance
>(submission)"-declaration of Independence
>People have tried to paint the
>picture that the government is
>the land owner and we
>are merely leasing the land
>at extremely low rates on
>a year to year basis.
>This is false! We own
>the resources! we have purchased
>them with blood and cash
>from private parties who owned
>them before the BLM or
>Forrest service ever existed. We
>have agreed to pay grazing
>and mineral fees which originally
>were used to enhance the
>range and protect our legal
>rights. These fees were essentially
>the same thing as why
>you pay property taxes. Would
>you be offended if someone
>accused you of being given
>a house for only the
>price of your property taxes?
>How would you feel if
>the ignorant populace justified stealing
>your home because it only
>cost you the price of
>the property tax and your
>really not out much?
>The federal government telling us when
>and how we can use
>our resources is just as
>offensive to us as it
>would be if the government
>were to come to your
>house (where you hold the
>property title) and tell you
>that you are not allowed
>to use your drive way,
>water your lawn, have bunk
>beds in your kids room,
>forced to remove any cooking
>appliances that get hotter than
>212 degrees, water heaters bigger
>than 20 gallons or water
>faucets that run more than
>2 gallons per minute....essentially rendering
>your property rights useless.
>As western land users we have
>endured years and years of
>mistreatment. We have sued for
>redress and it has fallen
>on ignorant and tyrannical ears.
>What the federal government has
>done in stealing our rights
>and kicking us off our
>God given lands is evil.
>
>"when a long Train of Abuses
>and Usurpations, pursuing
>invariably the same Object, evinces a
>design to reduce
>them (us) under absolute Despotism, it
>is their (our) Right, it
>
>is their (our) Duty, to throw
>off such Government." -Declaration of
>Independence 1774
>
>If you support a national monument
>you don't support just the
>theft of our property rights
>but you also support a
>tyrant, or the power to
>create a tyrant. Our property
>rights have been weakened in
>the past, this monument will
>practically nullify them as has
>been the case in the
>Grand Staircase.


Facts and knowledge Huh??
What a bunch of garbage.

Hey ck, Spent some time in Oregon back in January did ya?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-16 AT 08:31PM (MST)[p]They have already closed dozens of the existing roads in the Bears Ears area in preparation for the NM designation. With NM designation, it will eventually be closed to hunting and immediately be closed to all but very limited access, with tons of restrictions on what you can do. It will be no fun going there anymore.
 
They may have closed some roads and may still close more. Roads do not mean that the whole Monument is closed to all. Some people value recreating without motors. There is no shortage of 4 wheeler trails anywhere in the state, so this simply doesn't resonate with me as the end of the world issue that you are making it out to be.

The supposition that the Monument will be closed to hunting is not based on fact, or even recent history. What happened with the Grand Staircase? Again, I don't like the tradition of creating Monuments with executive power and probably misapplication of the antiquities act.

However, Utah has nobody to blame but it's own broken ideologies and political leadership that has failed and fought against true conservation and preservation measures on its own. I'll take a monument designation over state ownership any day of the week.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-16 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]Oh horses*** bugleb, what you're saying has not been true of the GSENM for 20 years now. When someone complains about roads being closed I always laugh a little. THERE ARE ROADS ALL OVER THIS DAMN STATE AND JUST BECAUSE YOURE TOO LAZY TO HAVE A FEW AREAS YOU HAVE TO WALK INTO does not mean you've lost access. I wish they'd close a ton of roads in my area, it would make hunting better and more fun. There's no shortage of roads on any unit I've been on in this state to get you fairly close to where you want to go, in fact in every place I go I see several roads that are unnecessary and I wish they would close. If Bears Ears is designated everything will be fine and life will go on, it could actually help the area if they embrace it instead of put their head in the sand and pout. Your lovely representatives Mike Lee and Orrin Hatch know Bishops PLI is a joke so they introduced legislation that has no chance of pushing through in time to stop any new monuments in the state. Mike Lee, Rob bishop, Jason Chaffetz, and Orrin Hatch are shills who feed fear mongering to individuals who don't care what the truth is just that if you have an "R" next to your name you must be right. It's ridiculous and an embarrassment to see how well politicians can make rural Utah fear monger and believe complete BS without even trying. The politicians in this state you vote in every year because they have an "R" next to their name have failed you, fooled you, and answered to their campaign owners. They don't care about people in San Juan county you'll vote them back in regardless, they care about the companies that pay to buy them.
 
I'm in Bessy. We got your back!

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 

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