SFW helps DWR with deer counts?

C

cache

Active Member
Messages
139
I've heard through the grapevine that SFW members aided in the classification of deer on the cache unit last November. Can anyone confirm or deny that this was allowed to happen. After looking at the rac pac I couldn't help but wonder how accurate and truthful the current buck to doe ratios on the cache are.The current buck to die ratios noted in the most recent rac pac I feel are way below where I feel it is ,thus the biologist is recommending 500 less permits for 2014. I can't help but question how honest the buck to doe numbers reported back where especially from someone that ultimately wants to see less permits issued. My worst fear if that a bunch of SFW members offered to help in the classification process and ultimately handed in UNHONEST buck to doe ratios to purposely lower permits issued even though the buck to doe ratios are in reality higher than the reported,especially coming from a group that has never seen a tag cut they didn't like.If this plays out to be true I am not going to just stand back and let this kind of b.s. happen.

I have tried to contact the biologist to confirm or deny this situation. I have left him three messages with no return. He has always got back with me when I have contacted him in the past and I feel he has always been a straight shooter.thus the reason for the post.
 
Either crying that there are too many tags and too many hunters or crying about tag cutting conspiracies.



When will this crap end? Jut go kill a deer once a year and stop crying.
 
I personally feel all tag numbers besides the limited entry, and oil permits should be dropped in half for a few years. I have always thought this was a good idea to bring quality up without taking away opportunity. for instance maybe close 5 areas to hunting every 5 years on a rotating basis then when the tags return do not increase the numbers due to the population increase keep them pre closes numbers. In the long run there would be better opportunity for us all.
 
IMHO that kind of a study or classification should only be done by the state biologists that the taxpayers are forking over good money for their supposed expertise. Any other way, especially as the OP is suggesting, is ridiculous when there is a hidden agenda.
 
I had 2 friends volunteer and and do the count. Niether are involved with sfw. Sounds like a bogus rumor too me.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-14 AT 05:56PM (MST)[p]Those ba$tards!! How dare they volunteer to help do anything that involves wildlife!! They could have been home complaining about stuff on the internet!!

ALL SFW members are dishonest!!! Everyone knows that!!!

UN-FREAKIN'-BELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!
 
I am not a fan of SFW but this rumor sounds like complete BS Most of the grass-root members of SFW are great guys who are simply looking to get involved and help improve hunting. I would be shocked if there was any truth to these rumors. The are plenty of things to complain about involving SFW without chasing unsubstantiated rumors. Those are my two cents.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
I was at the meeting where this was planned. The local Cache Valley chapter of SFW and others, primarily dedicated hunters, got together with DNR biologists and counted the deer herd on the Cache. From Bearlake, to Blacksmith Fork, Logan Canyon, the Face to Idaho, etc.....

We as sportsmen up here are sick of the excuses from the DNR about the deer herd. They were claiming somewhere around 20,000 deer in the unit. Those of us that live and hunt here, know that is completely inaccurate. So, we as sportsmen got together, sat down with the local biologist and had a discussion concerning the herd. Opinions were layed on the table, numbers were gone over, things such as areal counts, thermo imaging cameras, buck to doe ratios etc.......We discussed the "model" that the state biologists are given and made to follow when it comes to managing animals. Long story short, and I'm writing this from my perspective, the "model" they have to work with is majorly flawed. And, from what I saw the biologist listened to our concerns and agreed that "maybe" something was wrong with the data they gathered and how the "model" said to use it.

A lot of things were discussed, some of the meeting got a little hot, as you can imagine with passionate people in the room. Overall I thought is was productive. But then again, I've been in a few of these meetings and felt the same way, only to have nothing change.

So, dates were set to perform the herd count, volunteers were given assigned areas, some groups had biologists with them as well. total number of deer, bucks, mature bucks, does, yearling deer, and fawns were all counted.

If I remember correctly, the herd count was somewhere in the 2500 animal range. Don't quote me, it's been awhile since I've seen the actual numbers. But it was drastically different from what the DNR was guessing according to their "model".

So, for the phucktard that thinks it was all a conspiracy to screw him out of a sh!tty deer tag. You're wrong. Other than a few local guys that help out at the banquet and whatnot, SFW didn't have squat to do with it. We are just guys that want to hunt deer and are willing to give of our time to help out wherever we can. Beyond that, if you have any other problems feel free to send me a PM. You better have thick skin though, I'm sick of other hunters bashing on other sportsmen who are simply trying to help out.
 
And for the record, I don't think cutting tags will do a Gawdamn thing for the herd.

I'm not going to go into specifics on this. But if limited tags were the answer, they'd have deer swimming off of Antelope Island.

The only number that mattered to me was the biologist knew that 48 out of 100 fawns made it to their first winter. They have no clue what happened to the other 52. That and that alone is the key to solving the herd problem. And as a hillbilly redneck, uneducated Tard like myself, I'd imagine that the bulk of those 52 unaccounted for deer got eaten by coyotes/bears/lions/eagles/etc.........and until they declare all out war (POISON)on predators. Nothing will change. It will only get worse.
 
Even if SFW members did volunteer to help do counts or anything, I think it's ridiculous to think they're going to be dishonest. Silly.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-14 AT 10:10AM (MST)[p]Cache,

As many others have suggested to you, get a clue.
Yes, about 30 sportsmen from Cache Valley donated their time, gas,trucks, and even a helicoptor to try to assist in counts to help out our deer herds, and see how accurate the current system is for counting deer. Many were SFW members, some were not. Any sportsmen who wanted to help were welcome. THe SFW chapture chairman helped organize the count areas with the DWR. The sportsmen helping wanted to assist the DWR.

About 2,500 deer were counted. This was about twice the number of deer that is usually counted. More deer counted, would help with accurate numbers, than just a computer model. I was out of town for Thanksgiving, the time when the counts took place. The sportsmen who helped are some great, honest guys, wanting to make things better.

The DWR biologist came to our sold out SFW banquet to share some findings. He was very grateful for sportsmen that helped.

Elk and Moose counts were also done, by flying with the DWR to help. My brother and a friend helped with the counts as well. Again, the information was very helpful to the DWR.

The local SFW chapture has suggested a manditory harvest reporting to get more accurate information on the number of bucks harvested, instead of phone surveys and computer model only.

The DWR and sportsmen are working together. They are on the same team, trying to make things better for wildlife and hunting.

You might want to get and be more informed, before you trash talk the guys that spend their own money,time, and resources to make things better.

You can get back to complaining on the internet now. How is that working to help make things better?
 
Cache,
All I can say about your petty conspiracy theory, Oh brother, get a clue!

These volunteers are just hard working stiffs who donated their time and money for the cause.

For those who think the F&G should not use volunteer help, get a clue! This State has done more with volunteer help than could have every been accomplished with soley the paid State employees.

This whole discussion is like saying you don't like the Federal Government so ALL the State and Federal employees are no good. Ya, it's just that stupid!

"Oh gawd the wind blew last night... must be SFW's fault"!

Grow up and grow a set of your own you guys!
Zeke
 
Sfw members were there in disquise, they were actually there to scout for more bucks and bulls to sell next year. Nothing like a good survey to take inventory. lol
 
So are the results of the new model test with the increase count numbers available? Were the cache sportsmen's on board with the 500 tag reduction or did they feel more were needed?
Are there plans for a similar effort next year?
Thanks
 
Talked to the biologist today here is what I learned...
Cache chapter of SFW did indeed "help"him with classifying deer on the cache unit last thanksgiving.total numbers, buck/doe ratios, and fawn / doe ratios.I was told that the cache SFW guys have been down his neck the last three years telling him that his numbers where wrong and they did not agree with him posting such inacurate info.
I then asked how this all came to be and who where all invited to help count.
I was told the cache SFW came to him and asked him if he could use some "help" classifying deer on the unit if so they had plenty of resources to do so.
I was told that there were few usu students, but the vast majority were members of the local SFW chapter.
I asked him if an open invite was set out in search of other members of the public who would be free that particular day and would willing to donate some time counting deer. He said no. To his knowledge there was no advertising of any kind to let others know what was going on.iknow I didn't hear anything about it and I now I see why.he did mention that he didn't like the exclusiveness feeling that the project had and informed me that he wasn't real sure he wanted to conduct future counts in the same manner.he felt that there was to much room for manipulation.
I learned that a few groups had DWR employees with them while counting but most did not.
I learned that overall the SFW data came in lower across the board than the state employee numbers.
I learned that the cache SFW wanted him to take out a lot more permits than the 500 he is proposing.(surprise! surprise!)

I am still shaking my head about this. I think that no one should be helping the division on their classifications or advertise the hell out of something like this and allow every Tom, ##### , and Sally help fair is fair.this is serious stuff here boys. When buck/doe ratios are the driving factor in permit numbers it only seems practical to have unbiased ,qualified people compiling this sort of data.
 
I've been part of "the group" as you put it, that has been on the DWR's a$$ for awhile now. Why am I on their a$$? Because they suck at their job.

I was in the original meeting with the Biologist numbnuts, I know exactly what was said and how things were handled. And for your info, there is no conspiracy to take tags away from hunters. We are trying to fix the herd. Plain and simple. Their numbers are wrong. Their model is wrong. Everything they do to manage our game animals is wrong. They are the most inept professionals that I know of. If someone else sucked at their profession as much as the fish and game does, well, they wouldn't have a profession. But somehow, government can screw things up royally and stay employed.

I'm digressing.

They only reason the biologist feels pressured by the ALMIGHTY SFW, is because it was our local chapter that was on his a$$. Don Peay didn't tell us to call him, Byron Bateman didn't tell us to call him. We as a bunch of hunters that are sick of piss poor management got together and decided to do something.

You want to continue on this conspiracy theory and insinuate that we are lying about something and trying to screw someone over, you just send me a PM with you phone number attatched and me and you can get this thing straight. I've had an a$$full of guys like you that all they do is b!tch about everything, but never do anything to help. I personally know all the guys that were in the original meeting with the biologist, all are upstanding guys. Guys that are/were willing to help out and take a day to go basically work for free. Maybe you should re-read some of the other posts. But if you wanna insinuate that I'm a liar, have the balls to tell me in person.
 
Jack nuts,
I was told you guys wanted him take "a lot" more permits.
Are you calling him a lier?
Call me numb nuts
8814015
 
One thing is for sure, DWR doesn't care if they run the herds into the ground. Thank goodness a few people care and stand up to the DWR bullshit
 
I wouldn't put all the blame on the biologist. Their hands are tied. Everything they report goes to the wildlife board. The wildlife board decides how many tags get cut or added. I went with a biologist to count deer in The Box Elder unit 2 years ago. We counted 9 bucks per 100 does. He said it was the same the year before. He said it was supposed to be 17 bucks per 100 does. I asked him since they were at half of what it was supposed to be at if they were going to drastically reduce tags. He said he tells them that is his recommendation to cut them way back but it is out of his hands to decide. I talked with him this winter and he said the buck to doe ratio has been that low 3 years in a row. Maybe the SFW can count deer out there next winter and put pressure on the DWR to cut the tags. Sounded like it worked
 
I was invited to help on the deer count . I am not a member of SFW although I have been in the past . The guys that were invited to help were guys that knew specific areas and had access to some of the ground that needed to be surveyed .Some of the property was private and behind locked gates , other was only accessable on horseback . The biologist is in charge of counting the entire cache unit and I don't think any one guy is capable of doing that , hell we didn't do it with number of guys that did help . And no , we didn't see every deer but I bet we got the most accurate count they have had on the cache since they've been doing them . The area I was in charge of counting was some of the best winter range on the unit , probably around 6000 acres east of the Ant Flat road .I counted 77 does , 72 fawns ,3 immature bucks and 3 mature bucks .I am old enough to remember when we had deer on the cache and what nobody wants to remember is it does not matter if we have 3000 deer or 30000 ,if we have the wrong winter, our deer are going to die . Our deer don't have anywhere to migrate to if we have a big snow year . In 1985/86 our deer died . Again in 1992/93 our deer died . They have never rebounded to the numbers we had back then .Lots of things have contributed , predation , habitat maybe ,increased elk numbers , better and more accurate firearms and bows , banning the use of poison , the big white dogs the sheep herders run in their bands of sheep take more fawns than anyone will ever know . All these and more are contributing to lower deer numbers . Our deer started their decline 30+ years ago and I don't think they will ever come back in our area to the numbers we once had . We probably need to adjust our deer model to show a more reasonable number of deer we can expect to have on the cache and adjust our tags accordingly .I personally think when they banned poison and fur prices tanked in the 80's that is when this all started . No easy fix but I don't think blaming the SFW is gona bring our deer back .
 
By the way , I've been a hounds man for close to 30 years . The SFW has done some good things for us , such as pushing Prop 5 through the voting process and getting a few of our pursuit seasons extended but by and large the SFW has affected the sport I prefer negatively by pushing for higher numbers of lions to be harvested . I do remember what elk hunting was like prior to when they were around and you could hunt the whole season and not see any bulls for sometimes 2 or 3 years . We had very few sheep and goat hunts ,the few trophy elk hunts we had were great but there was very few . So even though I'm not a member , and don't always agree with all their agendas I think for the most part they have been a huge plus for wildlife in our state . I know I'd hate to have to try and please every individual hunter in the state .
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]I wanna know where cache hunts, apparently he sees all the animals that you numbnuts can't count!

dude give it a rest, or at least jump on the science says train. The more you harp on this SFW is stealing our tags mumbo jumbo the further from progress you get.....

If you think there are so many deer, then produce the numbers. Give up specific areas, and counts that support you. Otherwise STFU and be glad that there are people out there who care enough to donate time and resources to help provide a future for hunting.

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]Tod,
Good common sense and informative post. It doesn't matter what happens, some are blaming SFW for only being for the rich man, only for cutting tags so the few rich could buy them. What a joke. Bottom line, most sportsmen just want to lend a helping hand to try to make things better for a sport they and their family loves. When they do this some complain. Some of the complainers don't do much to try to make things better,but complain. Many of the sportsmen that helped in the counting, I'm sure belong to more than one conservation groups.
 
This was clearly an personal invitation members only kind of a deal. It was very sneaky, shellfish and down right WRONG. This is a prime example of while I feel the way I do towards this group. I feel like every thing they involve them selves in always has hidden agenda then playing the"we were just trying to help" card. I just don't buy it ,and I'm surely not as naive as some. So call me ann ##### if you want but I do question motive every time this group gets involved something.
Trustworthy, Honest, and Integrity are not the first words that pop into my head when I hear the name SFW. Can you blame me? just look at the past. They don't have a great track record to say the least.I won't down down that road again, you can read my past posts the past few years.
To my local chapter of guys, you can blame my attitude towards your group squarely on your all mighty leader. I've been involved in this political part of wildlife for a number of years now and have seen too many shity things down down with Mr Peay.I'm sure there are honest standup guys that are running around with in your group. In fact I have had phone conversations with 2 SFW members the last 2 days and will call I more after this post that l feel steer the cache chapter. We are obviously way far apart on some issues but not really that for apart on others. My advice to you guys is to set out to change this aweful reputation that follows the SFW name around.Honesty goes along ways.Dont think for a second I'm the only one that feels this way there are many many others that feel the same. I just have the balls to say it or call something out that just doesn't smell right

For the record this is a cache valley issue.I couldn't care less about some out of towners reply so save 'em. And I certainly don't give a damn about what some outfitter on the wasatch has to say about this issue so save it putz.
 
Oh I get it!
You can sling shiit far and wide and hope it sticks but then you come out with "it's only a Cache Valley issue so stay out of the conversation"?
Good folks doing good work and it's not good enough for you because you weren't invite. Hidden agenda, my azz!
Classic stuff right there Mr Cache!
Zeke
 
Cache , I guess you must not be able to read . I am not a member of SFW . I was called and asked to participate in part because I could access some property that was behind locked gates .I was also told they wanted to get guys that were familiar with different areas on the cache and that could distinguish between a doe and a fawn . I know a lot of guys that are involved with SFW and from my dealings with a couple hundred of them ,I personally have never seen anything dishonest done by any of them . If you have proof I'd be glad to hear it and maybe you can change my view of them .About 20 years ago , when Don was first trying to get SFW up and going , he came to a field trial at Schofield Resivior . He had been to the RMEF , Mule Deer Federation ,the turkey guys and the duck guys . Nobody wanted to listen to his spill .Well being a bunch of dumb houndoggers , that no body listened to , we got behind him .At the time the antis were at every rac meeting trying to get houndogging shut down. Prop 5 was about keeping hound hunting as an option for hunters , nothing more or less . We were fighting a losing battle and we knew it .He got prop 5 pushed through on the next elections .He got something done. After that he gained a lot of credibility with the other groups and he started working with them and even though there were a lot of things that were not what the houndsmen of the state wanted , it was for the best interest of the larger percentage of hunters in the state . Maybe you have an idea of how to raise millions of dollars for the wildlife in the state , if you do and are willing to work for free , maybe you can get a higher rate of return for our DWR . Like I said before I am not a a member . I know lots of their members . Byron Bateman is a friend of mine, the mans integrity and motives are things I would never question . I've hunted with him several times , and even though most houndsman are not to high on the SFW , I personally believe they do the best overall job they can do for the largest part of the hunters in the state . It's not always about some small special interest group , if it were I'd want 10 lions in every canyon and a bear behind every bush , as would Byron . I realize houndsmen are a very small portion of the hunting community and the masses would prefer more deer . I'm ok with it and as long as someone is working at trying to improve things I will help when asked . If we revive the deer herds maybe we can support a larger lion population . As far as questioning peoples integrity you may want to take a look in the mirror . Balls ? Unlikely . Brains ? Pretty sure you sir, are lacking .
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 09:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-14 AT 09:43?PM (MST)

Holy shizzz! Drama drama drama!
I am not a member of SFW nor have I been a member of any group. Let me say this...I'm glad to see a bunch of folks willing to get out and count some critters! I'm willing to bet money that the model numbers on most of the units is off quite abit as well.

SFW member or not, closed invitation or not, it doesn't friggin matter. These fellas got the work done. Ive spent quite a bit of time on that unit over the last 5 years and I'll tell you right now...I saw enough to make me say no thank you to hunting that ground. Ya I've seen bucks on that unit, to me there is little to be desired in hunting there. Until things change, I won't be back. I'm glad these guys and/or gals helped with the project.

But I will make a suggestion to help the cry babies out. Maybe there should be some groups of individuals who do this job every other year on that exact same unit. Let the biologists decide who helps. Basically make it a job to apply for but without getting paid. Bring your resumes and let the biologist pick these folks. If you do it one year and the biologist didn't like your work or for whatever reason, you don't come back and you get replaced. Have a group of guys for each unit. It wouldn't be hard to do.

Obviously the size of group would be dependant on the size or terrain of each unit. I'd be willing to help. Either way, there are tons of folks on here that share the exact same passion as I do. There has to be a crap load of people who can and are willing to help. We all need to take a second and acknowledge the fact that these biologists and DWR need help. This state is too big and the number of fish and game is too small. So let people donate their time and money to help us all out.

Either way, there has to be a way to continue this effort in all the units in a way that most of everyone, including the biologist feels comfortable and positive about the effort and results. If we can find a way to make this happen, then hopefully we can see good results with the number of deer. I hear alot of folks saying that we keep trying to do the same things that has been done in the past and they are not working. Maybe this can be away to do something alittle different. Who knows.

Kudos to those who helped out.




Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
Nor do I care what one jacktard from Logan has to say about a pisspoor deer herd, but if you are gonna get anywhere then support yourself...all the name calling and insults just make your case look like that of a child's tantrum...

PS when you get this place to defend SFW in any way, shape, or form you have done something wrong....

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
Cache,
I can't believe you would call these 30 volunteers dishonest and have an agenda to cut permits. I'm sure about 1/3 of the sportsmen helping were not SFW members. Do you want to bet lunch? These same dishonest guy's are some of the same ones that have helped organize and feed the deer on bad winters, haul hay and feed elk with Hancey's on the Millville face, plant bitter brush on Millville face, help with collaring deer for the DWR study, transplant turkeys, volunteer time for youth phesant hunts. etc. They spend their own money and resources, donate their own time, many are sucessful business men, many are my friends, and you think you are brave for calling them dishonest and bad mouthing these guy's??

You my friend have a few problems and a lot of hate.

According to phone survey's the DWR figured they harvested about 2,200 bucks. Then the figure out buck to doe averages, number of fawns etc, put numbers in a model and tell us we have about 18,000 to 20,000 deer on the Cache. I don't have the exact numbers. These vounteers and DWR counted about TWICE the number of deer, and classified them from the last cout a few years ago. They counted about 2,500 deer. There is no way that sportsmen missed 15,000 deer. THere were two deer found on Beaver Mountain while flying, most deer were on the foothills, blacksmith fork canyon, Logan Canyon, clarkson, etc.

The sportsmen are trying to find better ways to assist the DWR, and improve all types of hunting.
There are many SFW committee members who work with other conservation groups as well. Please quite trash talking them and telling them they are a bunch of dishonest sportsmen.
 
Ha. Very true Berry.

I have certainly been critical of SFW and some of the other groups over the years BUT I make sure there is a basis for my criticism before chiming in. On the other hand, I also have complimented SFW and other groups when I see something that I agree with (i.e., supporting a move to realign elk tags on the Wasatch when they added a late rifle hunt last year). Some may disagree but I try to focus on issues instead of groups or individuals.

In my opinion, this criticism seemed a little over the top and speculative. Maybe I am warming up to the taste of the "Kool-Aid." :)

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"""maybe I'm warming up to the taste of Kool-aid"""

I doubt that's true Mr Hawkeye. ^^^ haha

Simply, you can clearly discern when good rank-and-file SFW members are being maligned by an alarmist crack-pot.

Even the most vocally opposed to SFW don't want to touch this one! They have more common sense than that.

Cache should learn that when you sling a bunch of crap you just end up with pooh on your hands and a stupid look on your face!

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-14 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]I'll add my .02 and probably surprise a few folks. Specifically Cache. It is widely known in Cache Valley and beyond that I don't support the SFW business model or practices.
However, there are many areas where the SFW concept has remained true to its roots while still functioning within the current organization. The Cache Chapter does a relatively good job with that IMO.

So the Cache Chapter leadership decides to become involved in the deer count / classification and persuades the DWR to allow it. By the way this has been done a number of times over the years always initiated by a "wildlife group" i.e. Cache Wildlife Federation, Cache Archers and i am sure others. Whenever this happens the group initiating the participation certainly has had the majority of participants. With that being said is the DWR or the volunteer organization required to publicize the opportunity? Since the help was not solicited by the DWR I can't see a need for insuring all members of society have knowledge of the cooperative effort.

Cache, I was invited to participate and declined, I also know of others that were invited to participate but declined for various reasons. (I have participated in a number of count / classifications over the years.) Some of these folks are "anti" SFW. However the local SFW leadership did extend an invitation because they knew these individuals had an interest, knowledge or previous investment in the Cache Deer Herd. Did our local SFW leaders need to do this? Certainly not. I believe they did it because they were trying to insure that the count had the best possible coverage and accuracy.

I commend the local SFW leadership and Chapter as one of the watchdogs in our neck of the woods. I know them all and respect them although I may see faults or differences, I don't doubt any of them in their desire to improve our wildlife numbers. This does not mean I have to agree with them or their methods. I certainly don't support reduced opportunity simply for growing trophies although I would support reduced opportunity if there was proof it would grow population.

My conclusion would be this, don't worry over "spilled milk". You can certainly be involved without being on the ship. In fact from the scuttle I have heard some of the numbers that the SFW Chapter hoped for will not be recommended but a compromise will be presented to the RAC including SFW wishes, DWR wishes and wishes of other local sportsman that voiced an opinion to our local DWR personnel. Smitty seems to have heartache for our DWR employees, I see Smitty and Cache criticizing for the same reason. Their will was not imposed. I wonder if either of you have stopped to think that the will of the majority is being sought and if that happens the program is quite a success based on principles of the American Model.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-14 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]Hey Travis,

I do have heartache, heartburn and whatever else you want to call it with our DWR.

I've been in enough meetings with them, where numbers are talked about, ideas are discussed, issues are brought up, a resolution is reached, and then the DWR does almost exactly the opposite.

And yes I do believe they are inept at their jobs. Actually, I think they suck at what they do. In fact, if you want to get down to it, I believe that me, you, or half of the redneck, hillbilly, uneducated Tards around could manage our herds better than the so called college educated biologists at the division.

I'm not going to be nice about it, I'm not going to be politically correct about it. These guys will lie to our faces, and then stab us in the back, everytime, without fail. They did so in this very deer count.

I'm old enough and been around long enough and observed people enough to understand that common sense is extinct when it comes to the DWR.

I've read almost every post on this thread, and NOBODY has caught what I've brought up twice already. They (those educated biologists with their fancy wildlife model that is NEVER wrong) KNOW that they only had 48 fawns make it to their 1st winter. They also know that 100% of the does get bred. It's been documented, and they have the data. So, if they are so gawdamn smart, why don't they know what happened to the missing 52 fawns? I asked the biologist that to his face and he did not have a clue!

Here's an idea. Find out what happened to the missing 52 fawns, and fix it.

Here's another idea. Go out to Antelope Island, kill every coyote on the place. Do it for 5 years. Watch what happens to the deer herd.

You know what Travis? They won't. They suck. Period. They'd rather try and transplant, plant bitterbrush, build tunnels, have meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, discussing and theorizing about what to do.

If you or I sucked at what we do as much as the DWR, we wouldn't have jobs! Think about it for a second. If you were a cashier at any store, you rang up $100 in sales, and recorded $48 at the end of your shift, and your boss asked you what happened to the other $52, and you said "I DON'T HAVE ANY FU**ING IDEA". How long would you still be employed? Gawd! That's a silly comparison, but bear with me, I'm a little heated.

I paint houses for a living. When I get to the job, I know exactly what I need to do. And I do it. I don't speculate, theorize, contemplate, discuss with my buddies about their ideas, I go in and take care of business. I haven't been trained any other way. That is not how our DWR operates. And I'm not going to apologize or give them any slack anymore.

I've been helping wildlife for the better part of 20+ years. Whether it's been feeding elk, doing service projects, killing coyotes, whatever.....And I've watched as they continue to destroy the very thing we all love. So if you think I'm mad, you're damn right. You should be too. Everybody should be.
 
Mule packer, I appreciate your insight and advise. Thanks for the response.i would really like to pick your brain some time.
 
Smitty,

I may be getting old as ten to fifteen years ago I probably would have been mad. I hope that is simply I am maturing as mad is a waste of energy at this point IMO.

Anyway have you ever painted a house or business that had two owners? Maybe a husband and a wife who wanted different schemes and provided you with different instructions.

Did you simply do what you wanted?
Did you do exactly what the husband told you?
Did you do exactly what the wife told you?

Did you let the husband and wife come to an agreement and then provide instructions at which time you got in there and did the job?


You and I may despise coyotes, in fact every deer hunter may. We may see a need to exterminate them, we may love to see them flip over backwards. I know DWR folks that feel the same way. But there are many folks who do not feel the same way, and they voice opinions saying that our management (killing) of coyotes is wrong!

Think about mountain lions for a second! This specie pits hunter against hunter when it comes to bending the DWR's ear.

So how should the DWR resolve this dilemma and paint the picture?

I grew up during the Mule Deers hey day. You see prior to the 60,s deer herds were actually smaller than they are today. A number of factors came together that let the herd flourish from the 60's to the mid 80's and then a crash began.

Do you honestly believe that if we saved the 52 fawns the population would be sustainable in todays world or for the long run? How many fawns were dying before age one in 1972?

Could have the deer herd thrived in the 70's if the elk population had been at an all time high?

Could the deer herd have thrived in the 70's if the benches were the most popular places to build and paint new houses?

I certainly don't think the DWR employees deserve the thrashing you are giving them any more than SFW members deserved the thrashing Cache was giving them. Both are trying to figure out how to best manage mule deer in today's world.

You may be right I studied Wildlife Management and I may be able to do a better job than some in our current DWR. However, I wasn't willing to put up with the folks like you so I went a different direction in life. Think about that for a minute our DWR personel may be a result of us as sportsman and how we treat them. I spent many hours a few years ago with some DWR and USFS folks that I highly respected ones that "grew" the mule deer herd to all time highs. They forecast today's status and cited the cause as political and financial management of wildlife rather than biology. Think about that the next time you want to identify a cause of today's wildlife problems. For $37,000 a year would you put up with the politics while your hands are tied?

Constructive Criticism will always be more valuable than a tirade. Maybe as hunters if we tried to understand the models and methods of the DWR rather than always discrediting them, we would be able to provide the Golden Bullet to fix some of today's issues. Instead we want to figure out how to turn the Clock back to what we believe was the hey day of hunting. Mule Deer 30 years ago, N Cache elk 15 years ago, Rabbits the last peak cycle etc.

Don't get me wrong I believe the Wildlife Managers could do better. I believe they would if they did not spend so much time on sociopolitics. I certainly believe as hunters we need to be in the battle if nothing more than to present a counterpoint to the vocal minority of anti hunters. However, it is what we present to the silent majority that will help in winning the battle.


Keep killing Coyotes it is a great way to loose aggression, tame frustrations and save the fawns.

Cache send me a PM, I would certainly make time for a discussion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-14 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]Cache,

So you didn't answer my question, do you want to bet lunch that about 1/3 of the sportsmen involved were not even SFW mwmbers.

Even those who are not SFW members and have been anti SFW in some management and principle, believe you are wrong to accuse these volunteers for being dishonest.

You owe these honest sportsmen who volunteer their time, money, and resources an apology. SFW members or not.

Were they also dishonest when they were feeding deer and elk, planting bitter brush, helping with transplants,and doing other projects to help make hunting better for you?

I agree, Cutting 500 permits likly wont do much. Cutting 2,000 permits wont do much on the Cache IMO.

Years ago they collared 101 does. Chris Peterson did a study on deer feeding. SFW helped pay for the study. 33 died by MVA. More deer around Cache valley get killed by cars than hunters. Throw in winter kill, predators, more elk, harrassment human and predators, drought,poaching, etc. we have trouble with deer herd rebounding.

I do take issue with anyone complaining about sportsmen who are trying to help out and are called dishonest. Your true colors are showing when you don't even make an attempt to apology.
 
Greg,
Fist off let me help you with your numbers they are way off as usual.
Estimated total population on the cache is 15,300 not 20,000.
Total buck harvest last year was 1292 and yes this for all seasons bow ,muzz, dedicated, youth any weapon, and regular any weapon not 2200.
I still remember you telling me that I should be grateful that SFW didn't post any no trespassing signs on the Weeks property at the mouth of Smithfield dry.In reality this piece of property was acquired with conservation permit money and should in no way be deeded in SFW name.Those permits where given to you to auctioned off making it state land! I have problems with you falsely advertising this property as SFW land and people should be grateful to them for allowing public access.

As far as the 33% of "help" being non SFW members. Member or not is irrelevant if they were hand picked by members. He'll, one of the responses claiming to be a non member is a good friend of Byron Bateman the president of SFW.

It is clear to me now not all people invited where SFW bleeders, members or not.
This is very different from what I originally was told.For those who did offer their time with no intend to purposely lower buck to doe ratios to further more reduce permits I commend you and I do apologize for stereo typing the guys on the ground with those in leadership.

This kind of deal just looks bad from the outside.
Answer this honestly. If you were married and someone called you and told you they just saw your wife having dinner at the local restaurant with a guy that is known for a like of being with other married women.what would you think was going on even if there was no immoral intension what so ever?
 
Cache,

I guess that is as close of a apology that it gets from you.

I said I didn't have the numbers in front of me. I was at the meeting with the Biologist. I think he is trying to do a good job. He admitted that his model numbers don't add up to what was seen. A manditory harvest report like they do on LE permits would give more accurate info. Some other states do this. The deer population on the Cache isn't even remotly close to 15,300. The elk numbers have gone down hill as well. They need to cut antlerless permits. I was at the meeting. I know what was discussed.

I've been trying to help things out for along time, well before you came along. Mule Packer, and others have as well.

Dale Weeks wanted his property to be for wildlife if possible. I gave some of the Checks to Diane. THe Weeks family are glad that Dales wishes were met. There is public access for sportsmen to the wilderness. It has a water source for wildlife. Sportsmen are planting bitterbrush there tomorrow.

With your attitude and history, I'm not wasting anymore of my time.
 
So are you saying you think there are 2500 deer on the entire unit?
Regardless who gave the Weeks the money to tie up the land it was not money that was raised by your group right? Do you think it's right that the property is deeded to your group?I surely don't.why don't you just admit that property was purchased with state resources(permits).
 
OK Dipshit or I mean Cache , For the third time since you started your little temper tantrum to linch the SFW and anyone that helped the DWR with their count , I am not a member . I haven't been a member for at least 5 or 6 years . I am sure you can call and ask for a list of members to verify this ,even though I personally could care less about what you think . If you believe there are 15000 deer on the cache YOU ARE STUPIDER THAN YOU HAVE MADE YOURSELF LOOK ON THIS TOPIC . I spend anywhere from 70 to 125 days a year up in the hills hunting and I would say 10000 deer on the cache would be more realistic .Most guys that spend a lot of time in the mountains would probably say less .A 500 tag reduction is about ten percent of the reduction it should of been , but I don't think the DWR can afford the loss of revenue .About the 1200 deer taken on the cache last year ,I would bet that year in year out ,the same 10 to 20 percent of hunters take 70 to 90 percent of the deer taken each year .So why not give a tag similar to a dedicated hunter tag that allows hunters to hunt every year , but only tag a deer 2 or 3 out of every 5 year period .If you shoot a couple deer the first 2 years you don't get to hunt the next 3. It might make some guys think before popping a 2 point the last day of the season just to fill their tag . As far as being a friend of Byrons' , yes I am . I would bet most of the guys on here bashing him don't know the guy but he's always been a straight shooter with me and I can't imagine him not giving anyone a straight answer if asked .Until someone proves to me he isn't telling the truth on a subject my opinion of him won't change . I didn't have an opinion of you until you started your stupid rant ,believe me that has changed .Although some of the positions Byron and the SFW has backed haven't always been what my personal position would have been I can usually step back and see where he and the SFW are coming from and it's for the majority of their members as a general rule .If you have another group that gets more done, and always satisfies every member ,let me know and I'll join . Until then I'll donate my time where I think I can make a difference .As far as ''this deal looking bad from the outside ''I believe it must have only looked bad to you judging by the rest of the comments .
 
Tod,
Now you've told how you really feel about me and admitted that you thought they should of cut 5000 tags clearly shows that you my friend are exactly the kind of person that shouldn't be counting deer.in fact it scares me to death. 5000 tags cut really???
I know the area you counted well and have acess. Did you bring any glass while you where counting??I would love to join you on the same count next year I'd be willing to bet the farm that we will count more than 6 bucks!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-14 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]Cache,
You may have stepped in something that stinks but I believe you were the one that dropped it. Notice that anything anti SFW at least gets the usual 30 vocal haters to jump in. You're on a foul smelling island by yourself on this one.
 
First off you won't be joining me anywhere . I had another guy with me , we had an area to count and we counted that area. We didn't count deer in other areas .The area to the north of the one I counted had about double the bucks on it but it also had double the does . Maybe if the count had been done a couple weeks earlier the counts would of been higher but the bucks we seen were still rutting with the does . We started at daylight and counted till everything bedded about 11:00 am. so as not to double up on any deer . I really don't know what the number of tags they need to cut and I don't know if cutting them will make a difference but when you're issuing more tags than total number of deer and your below what the target number is on a unit ,some cuts are probably in order . By your rational as long as there are 20 bucks per 100 does we shouldn't cut tags . So what do we do when we only have 1000 deer left ? Just keep giving out 15000 tags? That's what your saying if I follow you correctly . Deer numbers have dropped dramatically in the last 30 years and a lot of guys have either forgot or were not around to see what our deer herd once was .It really won't affect me , we probably have enough deer to keep giving out 15000 tags for the next 20 years and by then I will be done hunting .That is a pretty selfish attitude but it's the stance you seem to be taking . So if your the hotshot deer counting, problem solving ,money raising ,##### slinging ,I can do it better than everybody else machine you have been trying to make yourself out to be ,maybe you could just do the DWR a favor and do the whole count by yourself next year . In fact maybe you could do a monthly count if it's so damn easy and your so good at it. Exactly what are your credentials ? I'm sure nobody would question your findings or motives . Especially if they came back and read this thread .
 
Tod ,
Let me help you your numbers are way off also.
Total permits for the entire unit is 6500. Where are you getting 15,000??
Going off of past success rates it is fair to assume
20% for rifle
18% for muzz
10% for bow
I defiantly don't think these tag allotments are destined to wipe out the herd.
And to clear up your assumption that I am ok allowing current permit numbers even if we had 1000 deer is wrong and way out in left field.
 
One last thing then I'm done with this thread.

Tod if your numbers are on the up and up why are you so against having me join you on that same count next year ? We wouldn't have to even talk to each other if you please. Just straight business , " there's a deer it's a doe do you agree type of thing. What ya say
 
I'll pass on your offer . I value my time in the hills too much to spend it with some jackass that is only worried about starting some conspiracy theory that SFW is trying to take his deer tag . Another thing , I'm not in the habit of having to justify or validate something I have said . The only thing that can't be taken from anyone is their word .I stand by all the numbers I turned in .From the start your intent was never to shed any productive conversation about the count , it was to try discredit the work done by the guys who did help . I take issue with that . I was raised that if you questioned a guys character, without good cause , you would probably be picking yourself up off the ground . So if you would like to further try to disparage me or the guys involved , give me a call, I'll make time .
 
Sometimes reasoning with some people are a loss cause.

I will say one last thing on this thread. I know many of those who volunteered their time, money, and resources to help the DWR on this project. Like I mentioned before, they counted more deer than have been counted in recent years. These hunters are honest good people, who spend a lot of time in the woods, and try to lend a helping hand when there was a need. Thanks to all those who help to try to make things better for hunting, no matter which group you belong to or even if you don't belong to any group, but just are willing to help.
Thanks.
 
I believe a very important point to make is this count is simply a snap shot. It is one reason I hesitated on participating. I knew that too much stock would be put into this count by sportsman and hasty opinions would be formulated. These counts do little good other than telling us what was found that day. If we really want to see where a herd is at take dozens of snapshots and then compare them. Once this is done trends can be developed and long term solutions can be discussed. I hope that those that participated take the time next year to count deer in the exact same area on the exact same day, hence a second snap shot. After doing this for a number of years then we will know truly the average deer numbers and trends.
As it is if this one time count is where sportsman put all there stock and demand change by the DWR they have wasted there time and effort.
At one time the DWR had a biologist on the Cache that dedicated his life to taking thousands of snapshots. Among many things he counted deer the same day in the same area year after year. He set up transects where each spring on the same day he gathered and counted deer pellets. IMO he knew what was happening. However his research didn't always paint the picture the DWR wanted so he often was black balled.

I agree with Hunt50 in today's world there is no reason not to have a mandatory harvest report for deer hunters. It would be simple to conduct via the internet. Maybe as sportsman this is what we should be demanding. Possibly some of the conservation money could be spent to write programs to analyze the data. The irony is we have been using these surveys for years through the HIP program and even with upland game. In both cases improvement has occurred in bird populations. Could it be the thousands of snapshots/surveys provided by sportsman have helped bird managers understand the trends. I would believe so.


FYI: I did spend this past Saturday on a mule ride. This is an area that I ride every April. I was encouraged by the number of deer I observed, I was even more encouraged by the number of fawns that had survived winters bottle neck.
 

Similar threads

M
JCR, statistics, counts, objectives and harvest reports
Replies
33
Views
2k
mightyhunter
M
Simpleton
Mule Deer Proposal
2 3
Replies
218
Views
6k
Vanilla
Vanilla

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

6A6966A5-EE3C-49B9-AC25-7EDD5E92367D.png
Screenshot_20230731_144002_Facebook.jpg
1710518772797.png
IMG_0789.jpeg
wades bull.jpeg
7B172D44-6EB8-468B-A9A0-F75007D49A5C.jpeg
IMG_7716.jpg
IMG_1867.png
99 buck.jpg
71190F86-646F-409F-B9EF-BBB3681F018E.jpeg
DFFFA19C-02B4-446A-A254-13C1587A25C7.jpeg
elk3.jpg
Back
Top Bottom