shotgunjim
Active Member
- Messages
- 969
Yet another reason why I would never join or support SFW, because of people like Troy boy who are quick to throw out personal attacks but will never answer a question straight up.
SFW Meeting - Officially Scheduled
- Thread starter grizzmoose
- Start date
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
X-Treme-
Since you are an SFW officer and you apparently have the time to hop on here and attack others who disagree with your position, how about focusing your energies on addressing the questions raised by the hunting public. You sent me a pm stating that you are willing to answer questions. However, I would prefer to do this publicly because many people share the same concerns I do.
To begin with, help us understand why the DWR would give SFW and MDF 200 convention permits from the public draw without requiring that any of the funds generated therefrom actually be used for conservation. How much money has SFW and generated over the last four years from the sale of convention permits? What actual conservation projects has it accomplished with those specific funds? What controls has SFW put in place to ensure that those funds are only used for actual conservation projects. Why hasn't the DWR provided any oversight into how those funds are being spent (See ColoradoOak's Post #91 above)? Why won't SFW account publicly for the funds generated from the sale of convention permits? Are you paid a salary by SFW? If not, are you paid as a consultant or independent contractor? If so, how much? Is any portion of your compenation paid with funds generated from the sale of conservation or convention permits?
I look forward to reading your responses to these questions. Perhaps your insight will alleviate the need to address these issues during the meeting scheduled for March 25th.
Thanks,
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Since you are an SFW officer and you apparently have the time to hop on here and attack others who disagree with your position, how about focusing your energies on addressing the questions raised by the hunting public. You sent me a pm stating that you are willing to answer questions. However, I would prefer to do this publicly because many people share the same concerns I do.
To begin with, help us understand why the DWR would give SFW and MDF 200 convention permits from the public draw without requiring that any of the funds generated therefrom actually be used for conservation. How much money has SFW and generated over the last four years from the sale of convention permits? What actual conservation projects has it accomplished with those specific funds? What controls has SFW put in place to ensure that those funds are only used for actual conservation projects. Why hasn't the DWR provided any oversight into how those funds are being spent (See ColoradoOak's Post #91 above)? Why won't SFW account publicly for the funds generated from the sale of convention permits? Are you paid a salary by SFW? If not, are you paid as a consultant or independent contractor? If so, how much? Is any portion of your compenation paid with funds generated from the sale of conservation or convention permits?
I look forward to reading your responses to these questions. Perhaps your insight will alleviate the need to address these issues during the meeting scheduled for March 25th.
Thanks,
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Tony
You can spin it anyway you want. And like I stated in a different post feel free to disclose what ever you feel the need to. But you better be able to back it up. It is standard procedure to my knowledge in business to offer a severance package. You chose not to take it. Good for you. I have my thoughts as to why you did'nt. I can assure you that we will not agree.
Jason
I am not on officer in SFW. Currently I am a paid consultant that handles marketing and fundraising. It is not my possition to answer some of the questions posted here. There are other people directly over these issues that are better suited and have more knowledge about the individual topics.
Several of the questions are legitament question and will be addressed through a change in our website and in the public meeting that is schedualed.
I think that one point that needs to be brought out is these 200 permits that you are refering to are not being sold. It is a drawing simular to the one conducted in falon Nevada. Does the DWR require that the application fees paid to the company that conducts these drawings to be ear marked for conservation projects? No.
The same holds true for the Expo tags the difference being that both groups that recieve money from the application process are actively engauged in protecting and enhancing habitat and hunting opportunities here in Utah.
I dont have the answers to how much and what percentage. That is not my stewardship. Those answers will have to come from the individuals over that process. I would be speaking out of place.
If you want to direct question pertaining to what I do. I will do my best to answer them.I dont have alot of time right now it is in the middle of banquet season. It may take me awhile to respond.
Tony and I have a long history we are both passionate about what we do. To no surprise we differ greatly in opinions. If he wants to challenge the credibilty and integrity of those who I am involved with and consider close friends he is going to get a response from me right or wrong.
Troy Justensen
You can spin it anyway you want. And like I stated in a different post feel free to disclose what ever you feel the need to. But you better be able to back it up. It is standard procedure to my knowledge in business to offer a severance package. You chose not to take it. Good for you. I have my thoughts as to why you did'nt. I can assure you that we will not agree.
Jason
I am not on officer in SFW. Currently I am a paid consultant that handles marketing and fundraising. It is not my possition to answer some of the questions posted here. There are other people directly over these issues that are better suited and have more knowledge about the individual topics.
Several of the questions are legitament question and will be addressed through a change in our website and in the public meeting that is schedualed.
I think that one point that needs to be brought out is these 200 permits that you are refering to are not being sold. It is a drawing simular to the one conducted in falon Nevada. Does the DWR require that the application fees paid to the company that conducts these drawings to be ear marked for conservation projects? No.
The same holds true for the Expo tags the difference being that both groups that recieve money from the application process are actively engauged in protecting and enhancing habitat and hunting opportunities here in Utah.
I dont have the answers to how much and what percentage. That is not my stewardship. Those answers will have to come from the individuals over that process. I would be speaking out of place.
If you want to direct question pertaining to what I do. I will do my best to answer them.I dont have alot of time right now it is in the middle of banquet season. It may take me awhile to respond.
Tony and I have a long history we are both passionate about what we do. To no surprise we differ greatly in opinions. If he wants to challenge the credibilty and integrity of those who I am involved with and consider close friends he is going to get a response from me right or wrong.
Troy Justensen
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-10 AT 09:28AM (MST)[p]X-treme-
You told me that you would be willing to answer questions so I posted some of my questions. Both you and Don have used the excuse that "somebody else at SFW is responsible for that and will have to address that issue." Please work with Don to make sure somebody is present at the March 25th meeting who has information necessary to address the questions that have been posted. I am more than happy to show up at the meeting on March 25th if there will be answers.
Just one quick point on the convention permits. Are you saying that SFW does not recieve any of the funds generated from the application fees for convention permits and that all of these funds are paid to the company that handles tha drawing? Based upon the information on the Expo website, it appears that the drawing was handled primarily by SFW and and DWR. (http://www.huntexpo.com/permitWinners.html)
I don't have the exact numbers for the Expo because SFW won't release them, but I woud assume that the convention permits generate between $1 million and $3 million a year in application fees alone. If an average of 1,000 people apply for the 200 permits, that would generate $1 million (1,000 x 200 x $5). If an average of 3,000 people apply, that would generate $3 million. This is one of the primary reasons I have requested detailed numbers for the Expo--not so I can complain about the draw odds but so that the public can understand how much money is actually be generated from these 200 permits.
The question remains, what happens to the millions of dollars generated from the sale (or "drawing") of the 200 convention permits? Is any of that money being used for conservation? If so, how much?
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
You told me that you would be willing to answer questions so I posted some of my questions. Both you and Don have used the excuse that "somebody else at SFW is responsible for that and will have to address that issue." Please work with Don to make sure somebody is present at the March 25th meeting who has information necessary to address the questions that have been posted. I am more than happy to show up at the meeting on March 25th if there will be answers.
Just one quick point on the convention permits. Are you saying that SFW does not recieve any of the funds generated from the application fees for convention permits and that all of these funds are paid to the company that handles tha drawing? Based upon the information on the Expo website, it appears that the drawing was handled primarily by SFW and and DWR. (http://www.huntexpo.com/permitWinners.html)
I don't have the exact numbers for the Expo because SFW won't release them, but I woud assume that the convention permits generate between $1 million and $3 million a year in application fees alone. If an average of 1,000 people apply for the 200 permits, that would generate $1 million (1,000 x 200 x $5). If an average of 3,000 people apply, that would generate $3 million. This is one of the primary reasons I have requested detailed numbers for the Expo--not so I can complain about the draw odds but so that the public can understand how much money is actually be generated from these 200 permits.
The question remains, what happens to the millions of dollars generated from the sale (or "drawing") of the 200 convention permits? Is any of that money being used for conservation? If so, how much?
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-10 AT 09:43AM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,
Here is the Job Description's off the SFW website as to who is responsible for what. http://www.sfwsfh.org/index.cfm?pID=5
Dont know if this will or will not help you in your quest.
SFW Officer
Name Title
John Bair SFW Chairman of the Board
Byron Bateman SFW President
Don Peay SFW Founder
Troy Justensen Marketing & Fundraising
Ryan Foutz Marketing & Secre
Tallbuck1
Here is the Job Description's off the SFW website as to who is responsible for what. http://www.sfwsfh.org/index.cfm?pID=5
Dont know if this will or will not help you in your quest.
SFW Officer
Name Title
John Bair SFW Chairman of the Board
Byron Bateman SFW President
Don Peay SFW Founder
Troy Justensen Marketing & Fundraising
Ryan Foutz Marketing & Secre
Tallbuck1
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
You are the one spinning it Troy. Severance packages and offers are for EMPLOYEE'S of company's. I was NEVER and employee.
You guys did not want me marketing CP and wanted me to not talk, that is what the offer was for and if you deny that then you are not telling the truth.
Funny you take this so personal when you were not even being refered to.
I KNOW what things happend and so do you. They were admitted in front of you and 6 others, and I think when it got down to it your integrity would show and you would admit to what you know.
Do the same things happen now that happened then? I do not know and I have never said as much. But I will say this, The 200 expo tags are not being handled like was agreed upon. Remember I was their when the deal was made. I was one of 3 people that sold it to the public the others being Don and Ray Lee. I stood in front of the Wildlife board and made promise. So I am 100% credible on that issue.
There needs to be trasparecy and there is NONE with those tags.
All people want is the 100% truth and facts and history shows they will not get it from you or your group.
I sleep well at night knowing I brought shady things that were going on to you and many many others, do you sleep well knowing you swept them under the carpet and now pretend they never happened?
.
You guys did not want me marketing CP and wanted me to not talk, that is what the offer was for and if you deny that then you are not telling the truth.
Funny you take this so personal when you were not even being refered to.
I KNOW what things happend and so do you. They were admitted in front of you and 6 others, and I think when it got down to it your integrity would show and you would admit to what you know.
Do the same things happen now that happened then? I do not know and I have never said as much. But I will say this, The 200 expo tags are not being handled like was agreed upon. Remember I was their when the deal was made. I was one of 3 people that sold it to the public the others being Don and Ray Lee. I stood in front of the Wildlife board and made promise. So I am 100% credible on that issue.
There needs to be trasparecy and there is NONE with those tags.
All people want is the 100% truth and facts and history shows they will not get it from you or your group.
I sleep well at night knowing I brought shady things that were going on to you and many many others, do you sleep well knowing you swept them under the carpet and now pretend they never happened?
.
buglinbilly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,009
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-10 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-10 AT 10:58?AM (MST)
Troy, while you are answering questions, I have a few and I think many others would be interested in the answers too.
First how much does John Bair receive each year as Chairman of the Board?
What is Bryon Bateman's salary as President of SFW?
What is the total amount of money that Don Peay received from SFW as a consultant and for any other compensation he received for any and all services he performed on their behalf?
Troy, since you are head of marketing and fundraising I am sure you know how much you receive from SFW for your services. Could you please post that figure for people to see?
How much does Ryan Foutz make for his services?
Is there a set salary for these positions? And in addition to the salaries, is there a commission paid and/or a part percentage of the amount brought in on an event that is paid to you or any of the others?
If the last years information is not available to you, then the previous year figures would be fine. I just think many people want and deserve to know.
I think if you answer these questions honestly, you will gain a lot of credibility from those questioning you. If you continue to stonewall and double talk, you will only in force the doubt that presently exists and create doubt in many of the believers.
Inquiring minds want to know the honest answers to these questions.
Thanks for your time and for this information.
Have a good one BB
Troy, while you are answering questions, I have a few and I think many others would be interested in the answers too.
First how much does John Bair receive each year as Chairman of the Board?
What is Bryon Bateman's salary as President of SFW?
What is the total amount of money that Don Peay received from SFW as a consultant and for any other compensation he received for any and all services he performed on their behalf?
Troy, since you are head of marketing and fundraising I am sure you know how much you receive from SFW for your services. Could you please post that figure for people to see?
How much does Ryan Foutz make for his services?
Is there a set salary for these positions? And in addition to the salaries, is there a commission paid and/or a part percentage of the amount brought in on an event that is paid to you or any of the others?
If the last years information is not available to you, then the previous year figures would be fine. I just think many people want and deserve to know.
I think if you answer these questions honestly, you will gain a lot of credibility from those questioning you. If you continue to stonewall and double talk, you will only in force the doubt that presently exists and create doubt in many of the believers.
Inquiring minds want to know the honest answers to these questions.
Thanks for your time and for this information.
Have a good one BB
I would throw out the same challenge to Tony. IF HE HAS details that would "expose" SFW then he has a duty to all of us to let us know this important information. He has hinted at it a few times that he knows of secret meetings and backdoor deals and admitted mistakes BUT HE HAS NEVER SAID WHAT THEY ARE! TONY IF YOU HAVE INFORMATION SHARE IT WITH US ALL. TROY GAVE YOU THE GREEN LIGHT. HE said fire away!!!! IF he gave you permission to throw them UNDER THE BUS WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!! YOu Obviously have some very deep hatred with SFW and its leadership so why don't you spill the beans. WE ARE ALL OPEN EARS! If you have info that you are holding back WE ALL DESERVE TO KNOW ABOUT IT!!! Especially since you said you won't be at the meeting. WE NEED TO KNOW YOUR SECRETS SO THEY CAN BE DISCUSSED AT THE MEETING! SO EITHER TELL US THE "DETAILS" OF what you know or be quiet because you really have nothing to say! I WANT SOME DETAILS NOT VAUGE references of things that may have happened! I am guessing that EVERYONE else following these posts would also LOVE to know!!
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
NewMexicoRob
Active Member
- Messages
- 190
Has anybody invited the the media to this meeting? I imagine CNN would like to attend or any other national media would to!
This is a HOT topic with LOTS of fishy thing going on.
This is a HOT topic with LOTS of fishy thing going on.
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Jason
I took them to several people Troy being one of them. Why dont you ask him if the meeting happened and the things were brought out.
You can sit in your uineducated position and make whatever assumptions you want.
But there are several people who know what I am referingto Troy being one of them.
ANd byhis own addmitance Troy does not represent SFW on this.
The ball is rolling Jason, don't get caught under it.
Last point, has Troy denied anything I have said? NO. he just said it was handled internally. He also said make sure I can prove it. Dont you find it funny that he never said stuff didnt happen? think about that.
Ask him about the meeting where it all came out, ask if that happened? Ask if it was handled internally.
Just stop with your defense of aomething you really know little about.
I appreciate your desire to know, but you really dont want to know the truth, you just want to prove me wrong...... But that cant happen, cause I am not wrong.
Good Luck in being a puppet like the rest of them.
Tony Abbott
ps.I would be glad to buy you lunch anytime anyplace. Your choice to take me up on the offer. You want to do that then my knowledge is open to you, if you dont then you and I have NOTHING to talk about.
I took them to several people Troy being one of them. Why dont you ask him if the meeting happened and the things were brought out.
You can sit in your uineducated position and make whatever assumptions you want.
But there are several people who know what I am referingto Troy being one of them.
ANd byhis own addmitance Troy does not represent SFW on this.
The ball is rolling Jason, don't get caught under it.
Last point, has Troy denied anything I have said? NO. he just said it was handled internally. He also said make sure I can prove it. Dont you find it funny that he never said stuff didnt happen? think about that.
Ask him about the meeting where it all came out, ask if that happened? Ask if it was handled internally.
Just stop with your defense of aomething you really know little about.
I appreciate your desire to know, but you really dont want to know the truth, you just want to prove me wrong...... But that cant happen, cause I am not wrong.
Good Luck in being a puppet like the rest of them.
Tony Abbott
ps.I would be glad to buy you lunch anytime anyplace. Your choice to take me up on the offer. You want to do that then my knowledge is open to you, if you dont then you and I have NOTHING to talk about.
I was NOT accusing you of anything NOR am I anybodies puppet. Need I remind you I am not even a member of SFW and I never have been. I just think if you have INFO it should come out to everyone so that it can be discussed at the meeting. If something happened and NOBODY knows about it but you then how are we supposed to ask an educated question. What should we say..."Don you know that thing Tony Abbott was accusing you of on MM? Well we don't know what it was but could you tell us more about his accusations because he wouldn't?" I DO REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH and I think there are several guys on here with their nooses ready to string people up and IF you have insider info then everyone needs to know about it. ESPECIALLY IF YOU WON'T BE AT THE MEETING TO ASK YOURSELF!
I KNOW IF I HAD INFO THAT COULD HELP UTAH SPORTSMAN ACCOMPLISH OUR GOALS I WOULD SHARE IT!!!! I THINK YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LAY YOUR CARDS ON THE TABLE Before sportsman think you are bluffing! TROY GAVE YOU THE GREEN LIGHT!!! WHAT would HOLD you BACK????
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
I KNOW IF I HAD INFO THAT COULD HELP UTAH SPORTSMAN ACCOMPLISH OUR GOALS I WOULD SHARE IT!!!! I THINK YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LAY YOUR CARDS ON THE TABLE Before sportsman think you are bluffing! TROY GAVE YOU THE GREEN LIGHT!!! WHAT would HOLD you BACK????
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Jason
Troy by his own admittance does not speak for SFW.
It will be hard for me to be at the meeting when I will be in New Zealand.
There are people going that will ask the questions.
Jason Ask Troy if there was a meeting where stuff came out and was admitted to? He will not deny that. He may not tell you what it was or that it was handled "internally" but HE WILL NOT deny it.
You may very well not be a puppet but I also am not a Liar. If you would like to meet with me I would be glad to come to you.
You seem to be believing that nothing happend based on what Troy says. Why are you not calling him full of crap and questioning his credentials like you are mine? After all he is the one that made it personal not me. And if you are not taking sfw's side your post sure point to that.
I know that SFW did some nice things for this state. I also know they came at a price. The good they may do does not outway the bad that they do in my opinion.
So atleast you are man enough to post who you are. I do apologize for calling you a puppet but I am not a liar either.
I have nothing personally to gain by the direction I going with this other then trying to preserve the integrity of something I helped create. If that is a crime then I am a criminal.
So the offer is there for you to meet me or keep your opinion to yourself. I make that offer to everyone.
tony
Troy by his own admittance does not speak for SFW.
It will be hard for me to be at the meeting when I will be in New Zealand.
There are people going that will ask the questions.
Jason Ask Troy if there was a meeting where stuff came out and was admitted to? He will not deny that. He may not tell you what it was or that it was handled "internally" but HE WILL NOT deny it.
You may very well not be a puppet but I also am not a Liar. If you would like to meet with me I would be glad to come to you.
You seem to be believing that nothing happend based on what Troy says. Why are you not calling him full of crap and questioning his credentials like you are mine? After all he is the one that made it personal not me. And if you are not taking sfw's side your post sure point to that.
I know that SFW did some nice things for this state. I also know they came at a price. The good they may do does not outway the bad that they do in my opinion.
So atleast you are man enough to post who you are. I do apologize for calling you a puppet but I am not a liar either.
I have nothing personally to gain by the direction I going with this other then trying to preserve the integrity of something I helped create. If that is a crime then I am a criminal.
So the offer is there for you to meet me or keep your opinion to yourself. I make that offer to everyone.
tony
buglinbilly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,009
Troy I and many others are still waiting for you to answer the simple questions I ask above. Your continued silence speak volumes for those listening and creates more skeptics. To avoid this just answer the questions.
There are a ton of fence sitters who could be swayed your way if you guys would answer the questions ask, but your continued avoidance creates the era that you guys seem to be hiding something. ?..?????....
I hope the hunters of Utah will continue to apply pressure until you guys have to step forward and unfold the truth as I see the time fast approaching that all these secret deals and failure to account to public will no longer be accepted. In many of our eyes, its long over due.
Have a good one. BB
There are a ton of fence sitters who could be swayed your way if you guys would answer the questions ask, but your continued avoidance creates the era that you guys seem to be hiding something. ?..?????....
I hope the hunters of Utah will continue to apply pressure until you guys have to step forward and unfold the truth as I see the time fast approaching that all these secret deals and failure to account to public will no longer be accepted. In many of our eyes, its long over due.
Have a good one. BB
Bill
I will not speak for others if they want to get on here and post thier income that is fine but I will not. I feel that is thier personal business. Now having said that i agree one hundred percent that SFW has not done a good job on having those numbers more accessable to those that want them. I believe you will see that come to fuition in the near future.
Like I stated before currently I am not an employee of SFW I am a paid consultant. So you are asking me to post my income as a private individual. I dont feel I have the obligation to do that but due to circumstances and the mis trust I will.
I started out in fundraising in the early 1990's as a volunteer no money. Around 1994 I was elected as Chairman of the SFW Board I recieved around $1000 dollars a month to fill that possition. A fews years later I took on the role of fundraiser with a monthly salary of $2500 dollars a month with no benefits and I was responsible for my own taxes. I was only paid for six months out of the year.
As years went on and the banquet load increased the six month turned into 9 months. I would guide the other three months out of the year.
Now as my children have gotten older and at the age they can start hunting I have made the decission to cut way back on the guide business and only take a few sheep hunters each year. Iam currently paid for 12 months at a monthly rate of $7,500 dollars. I am still responsible for my own taxes and no benifits ie health care, retirement etc. I am paid milage.
Like I stated earlier I will not post on here what other individuals make it is not my place to do that. I will say this I am the third highest paid person involved with SFW I have been with SFW from its inception.The top individual makes less than $160,000 a year. Ryan and I do not get a percentage of any banquet it is a fixed consulting fee!
We just went through a sucessful IRS audit one change that will be made is that Byron, Ryan and myself will become SFW employee's in the near future.
As fare as the Expo goes it is really Byron, Ryan and Don that handle this event for SFW. I dont have the knowledge or the expertise to give you the correct info on most of the Expo dealings.
As for the 200 permits at the expo we do get to keep the application fee's. My point was that the tags were not being sold rather it is just a drawing like what is conducted in Fallon Nevada.
Tony you are the one that has stated you have Ace's that have not been played and you asked me if I wanted you to show those ace's. My answer is yes tell all Tony.
I have not and never will deny that a meeting was held. It happens on a regular basis in every business. But there were no illegal things discussed or brought forward to my recolection. If there was refresh my memeory. Post them. You wont post them because you have nothing.We have meetings on a regular basis that are private and will not be made public knowledge.Is this illegal? Dont think so. If it is Illegal post it Tony!!!
Severance can be offered to any body Tony. It was not a attempt to keep you quiet are you kidding me. Most business's have you sign a non-compete or non-discloser up front we did not. Our mistake! not only in your situation but it should have and now is something that every one has to sign myself included. The reason you would not sign it in my opinion and I believe you even stated it. That it was to binding and would not let you start your own non-profit like you wanted to.
You give yourself way to much credit. You didnt hurt SFW as much as you think you have. The proof is SFW now. We didnt go away Tony.
I will give you this from my point of view you did single handedly turn MDF around. You pulled off somethings that several people did not think you could.Good for you!!
It does not bother me to give credit were credit is due. Sfw related or any other orgization/Individual.
Any other questions that pertain to me feel free to ask I will do my best to answer them. If I cant I will tell you why. I know I have missed some please re ask them.
Troy Justensen
I will not speak for others if they want to get on here and post thier income that is fine but I will not. I feel that is thier personal business. Now having said that i agree one hundred percent that SFW has not done a good job on having those numbers more accessable to those that want them. I believe you will see that come to fuition in the near future.
Like I stated before currently I am not an employee of SFW I am a paid consultant. So you are asking me to post my income as a private individual. I dont feel I have the obligation to do that but due to circumstances and the mis trust I will.
I started out in fundraising in the early 1990's as a volunteer no money. Around 1994 I was elected as Chairman of the SFW Board I recieved around $1000 dollars a month to fill that possition. A fews years later I took on the role of fundraiser with a monthly salary of $2500 dollars a month with no benefits and I was responsible for my own taxes. I was only paid for six months out of the year.
As years went on and the banquet load increased the six month turned into 9 months. I would guide the other three months out of the year.
Now as my children have gotten older and at the age they can start hunting I have made the decission to cut way back on the guide business and only take a few sheep hunters each year. Iam currently paid for 12 months at a monthly rate of $7,500 dollars. I am still responsible for my own taxes and no benifits ie health care, retirement etc. I am paid milage.
Like I stated earlier I will not post on here what other individuals make it is not my place to do that. I will say this I am the third highest paid person involved with SFW I have been with SFW from its inception.The top individual makes less than $160,000 a year. Ryan and I do not get a percentage of any banquet it is a fixed consulting fee!
We just went through a sucessful IRS audit one change that will be made is that Byron, Ryan and myself will become SFW employee's in the near future.
As fare as the Expo goes it is really Byron, Ryan and Don that handle this event for SFW. I dont have the knowledge or the expertise to give you the correct info on most of the Expo dealings.
As for the 200 permits at the expo we do get to keep the application fee's. My point was that the tags were not being sold rather it is just a drawing like what is conducted in Fallon Nevada.
Tony you are the one that has stated you have Ace's that have not been played and you asked me if I wanted you to show those ace's. My answer is yes tell all Tony.
I have not and never will deny that a meeting was held. It happens on a regular basis in every business. But there were no illegal things discussed or brought forward to my recolection. If there was refresh my memeory. Post them. You wont post them because you have nothing.We have meetings on a regular basis that are private and will not be made public knowledge.Is this illegal? Dont think so. If it is Illegal post it Tony!!!
Severance can be offered to any body Tony. It was not a attempt to keep you quiet are you kidding me. Most business's have you sign a non-compete or non-discloser up front we did not. Our mistake! not only in your situation but it should have and now is something that every one has to sign myself included. The reason you would not sign it in my opinion and I believe you even stated it. That it was to binding and would not let you start your own non-profit like you wanted to.
You give yourself way to much credit. You didnt hurt SFW as much as you think you have. The proof is SFW now. We didnt go away Tony.
I will give you this from my point of view you did single handedly turn MDF around. You pulled off somethings that several people did not think you could.Good for you!!
It does not bother me to give credit were credit is due. Sfw related or any other orgization/Individual.
Any other questions that pertain to me feel free to ask I will do my best to answer them. If I cant I will tell you why. I know I have missed some please re ask them.
Troy Justensen
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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Troy-
Thanks for answering some of the questions posted by other MM members.
Sorry to keep drilling down on the convention permit issue but it blows my mind that the State of Utah has entrusted SFW with 200 permits taken out of the public draw without requiring that a single penny resulting from the sale of those tags be used for actual conservation. This situation is further aggravated by the fact that SFW and MDF sell those permits through a "drawing" at the "Hunting and CONSERVATION Expo"--implying that the funds generated from those permits is used for actual conservation. Plus, according to the DWR's response to ColoradoOak's GRAMA request, the DWR has never audited SFW to determine how the funds are being used.
Now, you have admitted that SFW and MDF "get to keep the application fees." My question is what have SFW and MDF done with those funds over the last four years? Have the millions of dollars generated been used for actual conservation or has it been used to pay salaries, consulting fees, bonuses, etc.? What controls has SFW put in place to ensure that those funds were spent on actual conservation? As I have said before, I am less concerned with how SFW spends membership fees, banquet fees and donations--although I hope those funds are also used carefully and wisely. But funds generated from the sale of public permits should be used for actual conservation!
So I ask, once again, why have we as residents of the State of Utah given SFW 200 permits without attaching any strings whatsoever as to how the resulting funds are used? Tell me how you, Don, SFW or the DWR can justify this. I truly believe that the vast majority of sportsmen in the State of Utah have absolutely no clue that this is occurring. They see the good things that SFW is doing and they go to the Expo and make their "donation" believing that the money is going to actual conservation. I am sorry but this issue has become a real burr under my saddle. I look forward to your response and our meeting on March 25th.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
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Thanks for answering some of the questions posted by other MM members.
Sorry to keep drilling down on the convention permit issue but it blows my mind that the State of Utah has entrusted SFW with 200 permits taken out of the public draw without requiring that a single penny resulting from the sale of those tags be used for actual conservation. This situation is further aggravated by the fact that SFW and MDF sell those permits through a "drawing" at the "Hunting and CONSERVATION Expo"--implying that the funds generated from those permits is used for actual conservation. Plus, according to the DWR's response to ColoradoOak's GRAMA request, the DWR has never audited SFW to determine how the funds are being used.
Now, you have admitted that SFW and MDF "get to keep the application fees." My question is what have SFW and MDF done with those funds over the last four years? Have the millions of dollars generated been used for actual conservation or has it been used to pay salaries, consulting fees, bonuses, etc.? What controls has SFW put in place to ensure that those funds were spent on actual conservation? As I have said before, I am less concerned with how SFW spends membership fees, banquet fees and donations--although I hope those funds are also used carefully and wisely. But funds generated from the sale of public permits should be used for actual conservation!
So I ask, once again, why have we as residents of the State of Utah given SFW 200 permits without attaching any strings whatsoever as to how the resulting funds are used? Tell me how you, Don, SFW or the DWR can justify this. I truly believe that the vast majority of sportsmen in the State of Utah have absolutely no clue that this is occurring. They see the good things that SFW is doing and they go to the Expo and make their "donation" believing that the money is going to actual conservation. I am sorry but this issue has become a real burr under my saddle. I look forward to your response and our meeting on March 25th.
Hawkeye
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fishon
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Thanks for the response Troy. I made my last post on this subject on the other topic.
Again good luck in what you believe in. It never has nor ever will be personal between you and I.
IO just must stand up for what I believe and know to be right, no different then you.
I recollect things quit differently. Guess that is why there is a process to find out the truth
Good Luck at your meeting on the 25th. I really would be their if I was not out of the country.
We will probably always agree to disagree.
And I fared out pretty well myself when the dust settled.
Tony
Again good luck in what you believe in. It never has nor ever will be personal between you and I.
IO just must stand up for what I believe and know to be right, no different then you.
I recollect things quit differently. Guess that is why there is a process to find out the truth
Good Luck at your meeting on the 25th. I really would be their if I was not out of the country.
We will probably always agree to disagree.
And I fared out pretty well myself when the dust settled.
Tony
Troy thanks for being honest and open about your salary. For the hard work you put in I would say you are UNDER PAID! As far as the convention tags let me understand further and clarify this for everyone. I am assuming that you guys use a good portion of the money for conservation, but if I understand correctly you are saying it is much like the regular draw. If I put in in wyoming and pay an application fee or pay $150 bucks just for bonus points or if in utah I pay a $10 application fee for each species then it is similar to the $5 per species paid at the convention. WE DO NOT ALL QUESTION THE $10 per species application that we pay to apply in Utah. WHY ARE WE NOT ALL OVER THE DWR ABOUT WHERE THOSE FUNDS GO. Is it because we know they are mostly used to pay employees and staff members that we are all ok with it. Knowing part of the money goes to the company in Nevada that actually does the drawing DOES NOT bother us....BUT BECAUSE IT IS SFW WE QUESTION EVERY SINGLE PENNY. I am OK with a portion of the money covering those expenses to run the convention and the drawing and to help these org's function properly. LET'S GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN THERE END OF IT AT THE MEETING! AFTER ALL IT IS THE STATE OF UTAH THAT ALLOWED THEM TO USE THE MONEY AS THEY WISH!
Jason Yates
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woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
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Troy:
With all the BS you have taken, I appreciate you being up front
and honest.
After following all these posts, and taken the good with the bad, I have come to the conclusion that I will continue to support SFW.
Looking forward to the results of the meeting.
With all the BS you have taken, I appreciate you being up front
and honest.
After following all these posts, and taken the good with the bad, I have come to the conclusion that I will continue to support SFW.
Looking forward to the results of the meeting.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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Jason-
If you cannot see the difference between the State of Utah generating revenue through the sale of public permits and a private corporatation making money off the sale of public permits then you are beyond help. This is a public resource and it should not be handed over to individuals or private entites with no strings attached. You may be OK with SFW using those funds to pay salaries, consulting fees and bonuses but I am not, and I doubt that the majority of sportsmen would be either.
This issue highlights my problem with SFW. I know SFW has done good things for wildlife. I was a member in the past and I have donated at least a few thousand dollars to the cause. However, it is not right for the State to turn over public resources to SFW without putting any checks and balances in place. People have been asking for some time for SFW to step forward and be more transparent and open. Those requests have largely fallen on deaf ears. Now, many sportsmen like me-who otherwise would be supporting the cause-have been forced to demand some answers and accountability. No doubt the DWR and State of Utah have dropped the ball on these issues. However, I am beginning to think that Don and SFW may have too much influence with these entities to expect them to provide any real oversight.
Hawkeye
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If you cannot see the difference between the State of Utah generating revenue through the sale of public permits and a private corporatation making money off the sale of public permits then you are beyond help. This is a public resource and it should not be handed over to individuals or private entites with no strings attached. You may be OK with SFW using those funds to pay salaries, consulting fees and bonuses but I am not, and I doubt that the majority of sportsmen would be either.
This issue highlights my problem with SFW. I know SFW has done good things for wildlife. I was a member in the past and I have donated at least a few thousand dollars to the cause. However, it is not right for the State to turn over public resources to SFW without putting any checks and balances in place. People have been asking for some time for SFW to step forward and be more transparent and open. Those requests have largely fallen on deaf ears. Now, many sportsmen like me-who otherwise would be supporting the cause-have been forced to demand some answers and accountability. No doubt the DWR and State of Utah have dropped the ball on these issues. However, I am beginning to think that Don and SFW may have too much influence with these entities to expect them to provide any real oversight.
Hawkeye
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Hawkeye in my mind you should be upset with the State not SFW. The state allowed them the flexibilty to spend the money how they wish. They are not required to to account for the $ on the 200 tags. Sounds to me like the State is to blame for much of the accounting everyone is worried about.
The permits at the convention are not sold as you say. They in my mind are much different then auction tags. The are raffled off much like the permits are in the regular draw. I was just asking a question for everyone to think about. WHY ARE WE NOT QUESTIONING WHERE OUR $10 Application FEES GO FOR THE REGULAR DRAW??? ARE THEY NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE?? HOW ARE THOSE FUNDS USED???? WHY DO WE NOT CARE JUST AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE FUNDS? WHY ARE WE NOT CALLING OUT THE DWR ON $10 per species NON-REFUNDABLE APPLICATION FEE! ARE ALL THE TAGS IN THE DRAW NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE AS WELL????? Just something to think about!
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The permits at the convention are not sold as you say. They in my mind are much different then auction tags. The are raffled off much like the permits are in the regular draw. I was just asking a question for everyone to think about. WHY ARE WE NOT QUESTIONING WHERE OUR $10 Application FEES GO FOR THE REGULAR DRAW??? ARE THEY NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE?? HOW ARE THOSE FUNDS USED???? WHY DO WE NOT CARE JUST AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE FUNDS? WHY ARE WE NOT CALLING OUT THE DWR ON $10 per species NON-REFUNDABLE APPLICATION FEE! ARE ALL THE TAGS IN THE DRAW NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE AS WELL????? Just something to think about!
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ONE MORE QUESTION? If you believe that money is handled better by the government then by private corporations or indivuals then you must also support Obamas health care plan. I believe that many times the government does a good job of managing it's money and resources BUT MANY TIMES THEY ARE THE VERY WORST! It is true that corporations can and do become corrupt BUT MANY TIMES PRIVATE BUSINESS IS THE MOST PRODUCTIVE AT GETTING THINGS DONE! I am not trying to have a political bash or anything just some things to consider. STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR PUBLIC RESOURCES AS WELL. IN the western US there has been allocated $500 million dollars for wildlife to STATE AND FEDERAL WILDLIFE AGENCIES! ON HERE GUYS ARE VERY GOOD AT QUESTIONING SFW BUT I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE QUESTION ABOUT WHERE THAT $500 million dollars goes and how it helps our wildlife!!!!
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Hawkeye
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MTQuivers-
I have thought about it and the difference is one is a governmental entity and the other is a private corporation. My question is why didn't the State impose any requirement as to how these funds are to be used? Based upon prior posts from individuals such as BuglinBilly, it was because SFW pushed against any such requirments. I am certainly not going to give the State a free pass on this issue but it will not look good if SFW's only explanation is "uhh . . . the State didn't ask us to spend any money on actual conservation."
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
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Mathews Drenalin LD
I have thought about it and the difference is one is a governmental entity and the other is a private corporation. My question is why didn't the State impose any requirement as to how these funds are to be used? Based upon prior posts from individuals such as BuglinBilly, it was because SFW pushed against any such requirments. I am certainly not going to give the State a free pass on this issue but it will not look good if SFW's only explanation is "uhh . . . the State didn't ask us to spend any money on actual conservation."
Hawkeye
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Outdoors
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Great news. I am in discussion with State of Utah to turn over all land and tags to me. This gets the government out of the mix. You can trust me when I say I am going to get this deer issue worked out pronto.
I will personally auction 100% of the tags and auction public land access to outfitters. This is win-win and you can trust me since I am not with the government. Take that Obama. Did I mention I keep all the money so I can do all the hard work that needs done. I am accepting memberships and voluteers but right now I need to run off to a meeting where we can save some land and I was up to 2 a.m. last night so do not have time right now to get into specifics. Thanks in advance for your support as we put more wildlife in the field!
I will personally auction 100% of the tags and auction public land access to outfitters. This is win-win and you can trust me since I am not with the government. Take that Obama. Did I mention I keep all the money so I can do all the hard work that needs done. I am accepting memberships and voluteers but right now I need to run off to a meeting where we can save some land and I was up to 2 a.m. last night so do not have time right now to get into specifics. Thanks in advance for your support as we put more wildlife in the field!
Foreman4x4
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Anyone called Gephardt? Seriously, I think there should be a full blown investigation into the crooked shitt and back door deals that everyone knows have been made! Think I'll give a call to the media and make sure they're present at the meeting on the 25th! The word needs to get out as to what's going on!
Foreman4x4
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I'm talking about all the crooked shitt and back door deals that are as apparent as the nose on your face.
buglinbilly
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Troy, thanks for at least answering your part of my question.
I wished the rest of crew would do the same, but we know that will never happen.
It would behoove SFW if they would and will hurt them if they don't.
Most people understand they have wives, kids, cars, houses etc. and deserve to make a fair living. I think few would be opposed to that. Where people have a problem is having all this stuff hidden from them or when they are deceived or led to believe something which is un true.
There is a large group of sportsman who are totally fed up with the way things have been handled. And that group gets larger by the day. When 200 permits are taken from the pool of permits for the convention you would think the state would require an accounting. You would think the DWR would have required an accounting and informed the public, on how the funds derived from the convention, are benefiting Utah?s wildlife.
Why has the DWR Director allowed this all to happen? Where the heck is the Attorney General? How long does SFW think they can continue this mode of operation? Form many peoples perspective they have taken state owned proptery and converted into a private business that generates millons of dollars with little or no accouting and little or no return to the state.
Again Mr. DWR Director, why is this being allowed to happen?
I hope that Don is beginning to understand that his smooth ways just aren't going to cut it anymore. He needs to answer, honestly the tough questions he will be ask. I hope the local news guys get word of this meeting and that all the stations are there to cover it. The papers need to be there too. And hopefully this meeting will be the beginning of the end of many of SFW and Don?s past practices.
Many times we are our own worst enemy. I think that has happened with SFW.
Have a good one. BB
I wished the rest of crew would do the same, but we know that will never happen.
It would behoove SFW if they would and will hurt them if they don't.
Most people understand they have wives, kids, cars, houses etc. and deserve to make a fair living. I think few would be opposed to that. Where people have a problem is having all this stuff hidden from them or when they are deceived or led to believe something which is un true.
There is a large group of sportsman who are totally fed up with the way things have been handled. And that group gets larger by the day. When 200 permits are taken from the pool of permits for the convention you would think the state would require an accounting. You would think the DWR would have required an accounting and informed the public, on how the funds derived from the convention, are benefiting Utah?s wildlife.
Why has the DWR Director allowed this all to happen? Where the heck is the Attorney General? How long does SFW think they can continue this mode of operation? Form many peoples perspective they have taken state owned proptery and converted into a private business that generates millons of dollars with little or no accouting and little or no return to the state.
Again Mr. DWR Director, why is this being allowed to happen?
I hope that Don is beginning to understand that his smooth ways just aren't going to cut it anymore. He needs to answer, honestly the tough questions he will be ask. I hope the local news guys get word of this meeting and that all the stations are there to cover it. The papers need to be there too. And hopefully this meeting will be the beginning of the end of many of SFW and Don?s past practices.
Many times we are our own worst enemy. I think that has happened with SFW.
Have a good one. BB
ColoradoOak
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-10 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]Only one more year of convention tags under the current contract. Will SFW renew? Will Utah let them? Will Utah hunters let them? I'm voting "yes", because the majority of tags taken from the non-resident draw are going to residents. That's why most in Utah are not hollering louder.
If you read the Administrative Rule regarding convention tags, you will see that any conservation group was eligible to submit a bid for the 200 tags. Maybe someone else will step up to the plate?
If you read the Administrative Rule regarding convention tags, you will see that any conservation group was eligible to submit a bid for the 200 tags. Maybe someone else will step up to the plate?
hossblur
Long Time Member
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Quick math, Troy makes $90,000 per year with SFW. He openly admits that the highest salary is $160,000 per year. So lets say the top four average $100k per year, thats about half a million for those four. Now add in anyone else and you see how a group that takes in $3 million per year can only pony up 13.5% into habitat. Here it is in black in white, SWF started out as a great idea a group to help get US involved and politically active, what has it become? It has become what its nickname says Sportsmen for the Fabulously Wealthy. They have a full time position who by his own admission raises money year round, who is he raising money from? Ever seen how much it is to sponsor a table at a banquet? Ever been in on an auction, especially when there is a sheep tag? You think they give a rats azz about your LE tag money or your $5 expo "donation"? Do the math, how may $5 "donations" does it take to raise the $500k for the top fours salaries alone? Or you could just get the state to give you a few tags and auction them off to cover them. Who do you think they are gonna speak for? Like all golddiggers they always follow the money. So just sit back and enjoy your 5 day deer hunt, your once in a lifetime LE hunt, and feel good knowing that SFW will sell its soul to the highest bidder, then buy advertising space to tell you different!
Looks to me that the sportsmen get a double chance of drawing a tag. Once through the reg draw and once with the expo.
It also looks to me like Tony has side stepped the issue of what he knows. I figure he must not really have anything on SFW or he would start to spill. He has been given the go ahead. Now since he is not saying anything he must not know anything.
Troy has come clean with MM. With what he has said it is time for me to think about joining SFW. I can see all that they have accomplished. I have read MM for a long time and have looked at all that has been said both pro and con. I am thinking that the meeting will be good and hope it answers lots more of the questions. My question is, If the answers are given how many will still continue to bad mouth SFW. And if they do is it because they just are sour to SFW?
It also looks to me like Tony has side stepped the issue of what he knows. I figure he must not really have anything on SFW or he would start to spill. He has been given the go ahead. Now since he is not saying anything he must not know anything.
Troy has come clean with MM. With what he has said it is time for me to think about joining SFW. I can see all that they have accomplished. I have read MM for a long time and have looked at all that has been said both pro and con. I am thinking that the meeting will be good and hope it answers lots more of the questions. My question is, If the answers are given how many will still continue to bad mouth SFW. And if they do is it because they just are sour to SFW?
D
deerhuntingcrazy
Guest
That was a pretty personal question Troy answered that he didnt have to, took alot of guts in my mind. Now how about everyone else state what they do for a living, who for, how much they get( benefits included, those benys dont cost much anyway) Raises they've been givin, how long they have been there along with bosses numbers too.
Does anyone have the perfect committee to join? I would like them to stop or get rid of entirely the worthless wolf population here in the west, (waiting for a pack or even one to attack some boy scouts. Or a sierra club team trying to save some sort of moss or fungus going extinct. Hopefully its one that "belongs" to someone, them collared, numbered ones, I beleive sponsored is what its called.)
I would like also to focus some attention to disabled hunters, youth hunters as well. Bringin water to dry areas ie guzzlers, wells etc. plantin feed in winter ranges that most people in norths backyards take up or feedin wildlife when snow is too deep.
I only hear of these "horrible" organizations that dont give 100% back. How many people have time to donate their 40 hour weeks for free and still keep food on table? Not me. If you dont like or beleive in an organization turn your energy from whinin and boobin about them to creating the perfect one. We will need tractors, trailers, traps, lots of traps and someone to manage em all for free too. Also someone to donate thousands and thousands of dollars for bounties (and when they do AUDIT THEM EVIL MONEY MAKERS!) This should get us started and remember to turn in our receipts to mm SFW and MDF haters. I am excited for this organization!!! Lets get on radio and maybe announce it too.
Does anyone have the perfect committee to join? I would like them to stop or get rid of entirely the worthless wolf population here in the west, (waiting for a pack or even one to attack some boy scouts. Or a sierra club team trying to save some sort of moss or fungus going extinct. Hopefully its one that "belongs" to someone, them collared, numbered ones, I beleive sponsored is what its called.)
I would like also to focus some attention to disabled hunters, youth hunters as well. Bringin water to dry areas ie guzzlers, wells etc. plantin feed in winter ranges that most people in norths backyards take up or feedin wildlife when snow is too deep.
I only hear of these "horrible" organizations that dont give 100% back. How many people have time to donate their 40 hour weeks for free and still keep food on table? Not me. If you dont like or beleive in an organization turn your energy from whinin and boobin about them to creating the perfect one. We will need tractors, trailers, traps, lots of traps and someone to manage em all for free too. Also someone to donate thousands and thousands of dollars for bounties (and when they do AUDIT THEM EVIL MONEY MAKERS!) This should get us started and remember to turn in our receipts to mm SFW and MDF haters. I am excited for this organization!!! Lets get on radio and maybe announce it too.
DirtyTough
Active Member
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Kinda funny that poster's 134 and 135 have a total of 4 posts between them.
Bugling Billy you are a bowhunter and seem like a nice guy. Thank you for admitting that the State has much of the BLAME for the lack of accounting. I am willing to give SFW the oportunity to explain themselves and all of you should too. If you come to the meeting with a preconcieved notion that they are guilty you may miss the details. Let them have their time to answer questions. 90K-160K sure as heck don't make anyone wealthy anymore so it doesn't sound like they are "Pocketing" ALL THE MONEY. Let them explain where it goes. Not only is there the 3 million plus but unless I am mistaken they raise millions more than that amount through donations for wildlife projects. AGAIN THE WESTERN US GETS 500 million dollars for wildlife and when was the last time we demanded that they use all of that for habitat? OR EVEN WILDLIFE FOR THAT MATTER! THEY USE THE MAJORITY FOR ADMINISTRATION AND IN MANY STATES THE FISH AND GAME GET NOTHING DONE!!! SFW has done a lot for this state and they deserve the opportunity to explain themselves before a million assumptions come into the picture. IF WE ARE ALL TRULY IN THIS TOGETHER THEN GIVE THEM A CHANCE! THERE IS NO REAL EVIDENCE AGAINST them JUST ASSUMPTIONS> THE ONE GUY WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE PROOF WILL NOT SHARE IT WITH US!!!
Innocent until proven guilty in my book and with the things they have accomplished in the last ten years they deserve the benefit of the doubt. I for one will listen with open ears.
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Innocent until proven guilty in my book and with the things they have accomplished in the last ten years they deserve the benefit of the doubt. I for one will listen with open ears.
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Hawkeye,
Your questions are the same as mine. Why didn't the state impose regulations. You said the difference is that one is government and one is private. I realize that private corporations can become corrupt, BUT so can government agencies! I am not accusing anyone of anything but WHY are we not concerned with where government agencies spend their money. Afterall they get alot more money than SFW. That money all comes from us through taxes. Why don't we demand more things from them. I believe most F&G departments do their best for wildlife BUT they have NO accountabilty either and sometimes their very BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Especially when many of them are not even hunters and they don't really care about the future of hunting. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS
P.S. "I am certainly not going to give the State a free pass on this issue but it will not look good if SFW's only explanation is "uhh . . . the State didn't ask us to spend any money on actual conservation." - I agree that answer would not be acceptable!
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Your questions are the same as mine. Why didn't the state impose regulations. You said the difference is that one is government and one is private. I realize that private corporations can become corrupt, BUT so can government agencies! I am not accusing anyone of anything but WHY are we not concerned with where government agencies spend their money. Afterall they get alot more money than SFW. That money all comes from us through taxes. Why don't we demand more things from them. I believe most F&G departments do their best for wildlife BUT they have NO accountabilty either and sometimes their very BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Especially when many of them are not even hunters and they don't really care about the future of hunting. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS
P.S. "I am certainly not going to give the State a free pass on this issue but it will not look good if SFW's only explanation is "uhh . . . the State didn't ask us to spend any money on actual conservation." - I agree that answer would not be acceptable!
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
Founder
Founder Since 1999
- Messages
- 11,473
For what it's worth, I personally feel that Don, Troy, Ryan, John, Byron, and all the SFW board guys really are out to improve hunting in the state of Utah. I don't believe that they are corrupt in any way. I DO believe though that more attention needs to be given to the "average" guy in this state. I have no problem at all with the 200 expo draw tags. That expo is the best around. I even got to apply for a Henry Mtn. tag that otherwise I never could have. I really think it's a good thing. I don't apply for many tags, but I think it is a good investment of 200 tags. I would like to see it continue.
I'm also "OK" with the current number of conservation/auction tags. There are a lot of them, but I do trust that the money is being used the right way. I trust those guys. BUT, I DO NOT support ANYMORE auction tags! Cut it off where they are now. No more! No Antelope Island auction tags, no more auction tags period.
UDWR, SFW, MDF, RMEF, and all the others need to survive with the current numbers.....NO MORE.
I've read most of the posts on this topic and it seems that many people just flat out don't trust SFW. I have known the SFW guys for many years and served on the committee and board, and my gut still tells me that they are trustworthy. Don is very powerful and rubs elbows with very important people. When it comes to wildlife management in this state, he is one of (if not the) most knowledgable person I know, and the most influential. I really believe that he does want to improve things for everyone, he just goes about it in a manner that worries people. Just like with the Antelope Island deal, I think Don can steer pretty much any wildlife issue that is on the table. His power, I believe, scares a lot of people. I'm guessing that is why so many questions are asked of SFW, while so few are being asked of UDWR, MDF, or others who benefit from the conservation and expo tags.
Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
I'm also "OK" with the current number of conservation/auction tags. There are a lot of them, but I do trust that the money is being used the right way. I trust those guys. BUT, I DO NOT support ANYMORE auction tags! Cut it off where they are now. No more! No Antelope Island auction tags, no more auction tags period.
UDWR, SFW, MDF, RMEF, and all the others need to survive with the current numbers.....NO MORE.
I've read most of the posts on this topic and it seems that many people just flat out don't trust SFW. I have known the SFW guys for many years and served on the committee and board, and my gut still tells me that they are trustworthy. Don is very powerful and rubs elbows with very important people. When it comes to wildlife management in this state, he is one of (if not the) most knowledgable person I know, and the most influential. I really believe that he does want to improve things for everyone, he just goes about it in a manner that worries people. Just like with the Antelope Island deal, I think Don can steer pretty much any wildlife issue that is on the table. His power, I believe, scares a lot of people. I'm guessing that is why so many questions are asked of SFW, while so few are being asked of UDWR, MDF, or others who benefit from the conservation and expo tags.
Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
No I have not said much as I sit in the background. Didn't MTQuivers state that there is $500 million dollars allocated to the western states for wildlife agencys. Then why are we not holding the State F & G accountable for their millions that they recieve to manage the State wildlife. Divided up with the western states each state gets millions of dollars, $20 plus easy to manage wildlife and Utah has done a terrible job with deer, Pheasants etc. Why are we not after them.
buglinbilly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,009
Sadly, in Utah, SFW is the DWR!
Have a good one. BB
Have a good one. BB
>WHY
>ARE WE NOT QUESTIONING WHERE
>OUR $10 Application FEES GO
>FOR THE REGULAR DRAW??? ARE
>THEY NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE??
>HOW ARE THOSE FUNDS USED????
>WHY DO WE NOT CARE
>JUST AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE
>FUNDS? WHY ARE WE NOT
>CALLING OUT THE DWR ON
>$10 per species NON-REFUNDABLE APPLICATION
>FEE! ARE ALL THE TAGS
>IN THE DRAW NOT A
>PUBLIC RESOURCE AS WELL????? Just
>something to think about!
>
>Jason Yates
>Basin Archery Shop
>http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
>5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
>
>Discount code = monstermuleys
Because there is no question. The UDWR doesn't do anything with the money, nor do they ever see it, that would be illegal under our screwy 'no-lottery' laws. It goes directly to the company in Fallon, Nv that administrates the draw.
>ARE WE NOT QUESTIONING WHERE
>OUR $10 Application FEES GO
>FOR THE REGULAR DRAW??? ARE
>THEY NOT A PUBLIC RESOURCE??
>HOW ARE THOSE FUNDS USED????
>WHY DO WE NOT CARE
>JUST AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE
>FUNDS? WHY ARE WE NOT
>CALLING OUT THE DWR ON
>$10 per species NON-REFUNDABLE APPLICATION
>FEE! ARE ALL THE TAGS
>IN THE DRAW NOT A
>PUBLIC RESOURCE AS WELL????? Just
>something to think about!
>
>Jason Yates
>Basin Archery Shop
>http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
>5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
>
>Discount code = monstermuleys
Because there is no question. The UDWR doesn't do anything with the money, nor do they ever see it, that would be illegal under our screwy 'no-lottery' laws. It goes directly to the company in Fallon, Nv that administrates the draw.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-10 AT 10:53AM (MST)[p] If we as a state give Fallon, NV $10 per species to handle our draw system why are we so worried about $5 per species to handle this draw???
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
M
Muleynuts
Guest
Curious as to what you and your MM possee are doing to improve hunting in Utah?? You sure have it all figured out so I suggest you STEP UP or SHUT UP! Let me know when you and your road huntin Tony Abbott kool aid drinkin outfit get a better organization together and I will send my membership dues?? Seriously Step up or shut up!!!!!!!!!
Have a good one. MN
Have a good one. MN
B
bigthree
Guest
MT pm sent
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,019
?If the answers are given how many will still continue to bad mouth SFW. And if they do is it because they just are sour to SFW??
?I only hear of these "horrible" organizations that dont give 100% back. How many people have time to donate their 40 hour weeks for free and still keep food on table? Not me. If you dont like or beleive in an organization turn your energy from whinin and boobin about them to creating the perfect one.?
Birdman and deerhuntingcrazy don't you boys worry about how many posts you've had on MM, the number of posts you've made have nothing to do with being able to study the data posted here and else where and form an opinion. As far as I'm concerned you have seen the reality of western hunting?s current challenges and heard from a few (very few actually) that dare express their views on these public forums. You?ve been able to see through the comments into the desires, beliefs and hunting ambitions of the few sportsmen who have posted. A lot has been said, back and forth and your conclusions are dead on correct.
I believe much of the rhetoric and demand for an answer to what shall be ?endless? questions are quite simply a poorly veiled attempt to acquire ?ammunition? rather than to bring ?clarity? or provide ?transparency?. No need to name names, as these posters continue offering their comments and making their demands it begins to reveal their real reason for asking. Not all, some like yourselves are truly seeking answers for the right reasons, clearly you are able to tell who's who in this struggle for influence at the wildlife management table.
In 1993 I was opposed to SFW and Don Peay. I was worried that our mule deer were where headed for disaster (along with thousands of other deer hunters in Utah). The Utah Wildlife Federation was pressing the DWR for a different tool to save our deer herds. We lost that struggle to SFW. I still believe our plan was more viable and believe if the DWR had gone the direction we were proposing our deer herds would not be in the horrible condition they are today.
However since that time I have made a complete about face regarding SFW. Not because the leadership at SFW have buddied up to me or made any attempted to befriend me, actually, the opposite is true. With the exception of Mr. Peay the other SFW leadership could spend an entire day working elbow to elbow with me without so much as a single grunt of recognition. I'll attend the SFW banquet in Richfield this weekend, like I have for the past many years, they'll walk past me without so much as a nod of the head, not because they don't know me but they have their reasons, or not. Not actually my kind of folks but that's okay with me, for this reason.
I've watched a lot of people and organizations over the last 35 years try to improve and protect huntable wildlife and no one, I mean no can get things done like Don Peay can. Like it or not, facts are facts, the rest talk the talk, Don Peay moves the mountain. That's why some hate him. That's why I respect and support him. I'm not interested in talk, results are all I care about. If I'm going to try to influence anyone it's going to be Mr. Peay because I want to give my time and my pittance to SFW where I believe it can make a difference for all huntable wildlife and all hunters, rich and poor. And as long as it's done ?with in the law? I really don't give a damn who's money they use, how they get, or how they leverage that money as long as the mountain gets moved.
In most cases when mountains get moved there are casualties, some you've been reading about. I don't particularly like casualties, fact is I hate them but they are a reality when tough jobs need to get done. I'll never stomp on a casualty but I will not stop the train because I see what's at stake if I back off every time a casualty happens. It's great to see that others like yourselves seem to agree.
Make no mistake, for many years I've belong to DU, RMEF, NRA, have belonged to MDF, and numerous others, all great organizations with great people. However, for getting what I as a hunting sportsman want to see happen, which are healthy, viable (self sustaining) well balanced big game herds, no one is doing it like SFW. If others can or want to, great, I'm not going to ?holler Whoa? at a horse race, but for me, at this time, SFW is the horse I'm betting on.
I hope you'll become a member, not always agreeing 100% but always assisting when and where you can because of the big picture.
DC
?I only hear of these "horrible" organizations that dont give 100% back. How many people have time to donate their 40 hour weeks for free and still keep food on table? Not me. If you dont like or beleive in an organization turn your energy from whinin and boobin about them to creating the perfect one.?
Birdman and deerhuntingcrazy don't you boys worry about how many posts you've had on MM, the number of posts you've made have nothing to do with being able to study the data posted here and else where and form an opinion. As far as I'm concerned you have seen the reality of western hunting?s current challenges and heard from a few (very few actually) that dare express their views on these public forums. You?ve been able to see through the comments into the desires, beliefs and hunting ambitions of the few sportsmen who have posted. A lot has been said, back and forth and your conclusions are dead on correct.
I believe much of the rhetoric and demand for an answer to what shall be ?endless? questions are quite simply a poorly veiled attempt to acquire ?ammunition? rather than to bring ?clarity? or provide ?transparency?. No need to name names, as these posters continue offering their comments and making their demands it begins to reveal their real reason for asking. Not all, some like yourselves are truly seeking answers for the right reasons, clearly you are able to tell who's who in this struggle for influence at the wildlife management table.
In 1993 I was opposed to SFW and Don Peay. I was worried that our mule deer were where headed for disaster (along with thousands of other deer hunters in Utah). The Utah Wildlife Federation was pressing the DWR for a different tool to save our deer herds. We lost that struggle to SFW. I still believe our plan was more viable and believe if the DWR had gone the direction we were proposing our deer herds would not be in the horrible condition they are today.
However since that time I have made a complete about face regarding SFW. Not because the leadership at SFW have buddied up to me or made any attempted to befriend me, actually, the opposite is true. With the exception of Mr. Peay the other SFW leadership could spend an entire day working elbow to elbow with me without so much as a single grunt of recognition. I'll attend the SFW banquet in Richfield this weekend, like I have for the past many years, they'll walk past me without so much as a nod of the head, not because they don't know me but they have their reasons, or not. Not actually my kind of folks but that's okay with me, for this reason.
I've watched a lot of people and organizations over the last 35 years try to improve and protect huntable wildlife and no one, I mean no can get things done like Don Peay can. Like it or not, facts are facts, the rest talk the talk, Don Peay moves the mountain. That's why some hate him. That's why I respect and support him. I'm not interested in talk, results are all I care about. If I'm going to try to influence anyone it's going to be Mr. Peay because I want to give my time and my pittance to SFW where I believe it can make a difference for all huntable wildlife and all hunters, rich and poor. And as long as it's done ?with in the law? I really don't give a damn who's money they use, how they get, or how they leverage that money as long as the mountain gets moved.
In most cases when mountains get moved there are casualties, some you've been reading about. I don't particularly like casualties, fact is I hate them but they are a reality when tough jobs need to get done. I'll never stomp on a casualty but I will not stop the train because I see what's at stake if I back off every time a casualty happens. It's great to see that others like yourselves seem to agree.
Make no mistake, for many years I've belong to DU, RMEF, NRA, have belonged to MDF, and numerous others, all great organizations with great people. However, for getting what I as a hunting sportsman want to see happen, which are healthy, viable (self sustaining) well balanced big game herds, no one is doing it like SFW. If others can or want to, great, I'm not going to ?holler Whoa? at a horse race, but for me, at this time, SFW is the horse I'm betting on.
I hope you'll become a member, not always agreeing 100% but always assisting when and where you can because of the big picture.
DC
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back on this thread. In all honesty I lost track of it. There are some many threads I cant keep track of which one I have posted on and which one I have'nt.
I look forward to the meeting on the 25 I hope many of you will be pleasantly surprised with what you learn. I can assure you we wont be able to satisfy ever one but it wont be due to lack of effort on SFW part.
Concerning the EXPO Tags once again and I think we all understand it now. These tags are not sold they are simpley taken from the general draw and reallocated to be drawn here at the Expo in SLC.
The only money MDF, SFW and WSF were and are permited to keep was the application fee. To my knowledge the DWR does not require the company that does the draw in Fallon to account for the percentage they keep for conducting the draw. Nor should they!
Now why would Utah and the DWR allow a couple of conservation groups to benefit from these application fee's?
Here is my assesment of it and why they do and should.
1- The groups involved are actively involved in protecting and inhancing Utah's wildlife. Keep in mind RMEF and NWTF were invivited to participate in the beging and chose not to.
2- It is a way of saying thanks we appreciate what you do and we hope this will allow the groups to invest more money in Utah's wildlife. We have to face the fact that DWR cannot accomplish everything on thier own they need partners and this is a way of building those partnerships.
Another point to remember is that none of the money paid to fallon nevada goes to benefit wildlife! They are a for profit business which is fine. The major difference being, now some of the money actually goes to a couple of groups that are working on making Utahs wildlife and habitat more abundant.
3- It is a huge source of income for the State of Utah and SLC. Tourism! Hundreds of thousands if not a million is spent here in that week. Where does that money go to resturant owners, gas stations, hotels etc. A huge win for the State. Just like the olympics but on a smaller scale.
Is some of the money generated by these application fee's used in Salary's and over head? My guess would be yes,there is a cost of doing business.
I dont think the numbers thrown out there are correct as to how much the application fee's generate. My guess is less than 1 million gross. I honestly dont know the exact amount. Then you have to figure in the cost of everthing that goes into pulling of this event. Its not cheap!
I am sure there are some checks and balances. I dont know what exstent simply because it is an application fee and the groups are not selling the permits. Unlike the conservation permit program. Where there is a full blown audit. That is something we can ask Ryan & Byron at the meeting.
I think alot of this will be addressed at the meeting and made available on the website in the near future. I know it is not a popular answer but be patient. We do not have a big staff and this is our busiest time of year with all the banquet stuff, legislator and now the wolf wars.
Like I have stated before we have made mistakes and will contine to do so we are human. We do appreciate those that choose to support SFW and respect most of those that have a diferent opinion.
I hope to see you on the 25th for those of you that dont now me you cant miss me I am the BIG SLOW easy target.
Deloss I owe you an apology for not saying hello. When I get in banquet/Expo mode sometimes I get tunnel vission. Sorry!!! Thanks for all you do.
Troy Justensen
I look forward to the meeting on the 25 I hope many of you will be pleasantly surprised with what you learn. I can assure you we wont be able to satisfy ever one but it wont be due to lack of effort on SFW part.
Concerning the EXPO Tags once again and I think we all understand it now. These tags are not sold they are simpley taken from the general draw and reallocated to be drawn here at the Expo in SLC.
The only money MDF, SFW and WSF were and are permited to keep was the application fee. To my knowledge the DWR does not require the company that does the draw in Fallon to account for the percentage they keep for conducting the draw. Nor should they!
Now why would Utah and the DWR allow a couple of conservation groups to benefit from these application fee's?
Here is my assesment of it and why they do and should.
1- The groups involved are actively involved in protecting and inhancing Utah's wildlife. Keep in mind RMEF and NWTF were invivited to participate in the beging and chose not to.
2- It is a way of saying thanks we appreciate what you do and we hope this will allow the groups to invest more money in Utah's wildlife. We have to face the fact that DWR cannot accomplish everything on thier own they need partners and this is a way of building those partnerships.
Another point to remember is that none of the money paid to fallon nevada goes to benefit wildlife! They are a for profit business which is fine. The major difference being, now some of the money actually goes to a couple of groups that are working on making Utahs wildlife and habitat more abundant.
3- It is a huge source of income for the State of Utah and SLC. Tourism! Hundreds of thousands if not a million is spent here in that week. Where does that money go to resturant owners, gas stations, hotels etc. A huge win for the State. Just like the olympics but on a smaller scale.
Is some of the money generated by these application fee's used in Salary's and over head? My guess would be yes,there is a cost of doing business.
I dont think the numbers thrown out there are correct as to how much the application fee's generate. My guess is less than 1 million gross. I honestly dont know the exact amount. Then you have to figure in the cost of everthing that goes into pulling of this event. Its not cheap!
I am sure there are some checks and balances. I dont know what exstent simply because it is an application fee and the groups are not selling the permits. Unlike the conservation permit program. Where there is a full blown audit. That is something we can ask Ryan & Byron at the meeting.
I think alot of this will be addressed at the meeting and made available on the website in the near future. I know it is not a popular answer but be patient. We do not have a big staff and this is our busiest time of year with all the banquet stuff, legislator and now the wolf wars.
Like I have stated before we have made mistakes and will contine to do so we are human. We do appreciate those that choose to support SFW and respect most of those that have a diferent opinion.
I hope to see you on the 25th for those of you that dont now me you cant miss me I am the BIG SLOW easy target.
Deloss I owe you an apology for not saying hello. When I get in banquet/Expo mode sometimes I get tunnel vission. Sorry!!! Thanks for all you do.
Troy Justensen
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Troy-
Thanks for the response. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the convention permit issue. I am disappointed in the State of Utah and SFW that there is no requirement that the revenue generated from the convention tags be used for actual conservation projects. SFW and MDF no doubt make plenty of money from the admissions and booth rentals to cover their costs associated with the Expo. The funds generated from the sale of 200 public permits should be used for actual conservation projects. I see no distinction between the funds generated from these permits and the 540 conservation permits handed out to SFW and other conservation organizations--where is there is a requirement that 90% of the funds be used for approved conservation projects.
I do not agree with your explanation that the State provided SFW 200 permits as "a way of saying thanks we appreciate what you do and we hope this will allow the groups to invest more money in Utah's wildlife." To the extent that this was some kind of quid pro quo, it is innapropriate. To the extent that the State was trying to help the groups invest more money in Utah's wildlife, what better way to accomplish that then to require that the funds be used for actual conservation.
I was not present at the RAC and Wilflife Board meetings 4 years ago when the convention permits were discussed and approved. However, I have heard from others who were present that SFW opposed any such requirement. Some have even said that SFW informally promised that a "significant amount" of the money would be used for actual conservation. It is my understanding that we just completed the fourth year of a five-year agreement regarding convention tags. I am going to make sure that I am present when the new agreement is discussed. I see no reason why the State should not require that at least 90% of the funds generated from the sale of the Expo permits be used for actual conservation. I would hope that SFW would support such an amendment. It would go a long way toward resolving the public's concerns as to how such funds are being spent. If SFW is truly focused on benefitting Utah's wildlife then it should welcome some additional controls and transparency regarding the use of funds generated from the sale of convention permits.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Thanks for the response. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the convention permit issue. I am disappointed in the State of Utah and SFW that there is no requirement that the revenue generated from the convention tags be used for actual conservation projects. SFW and MDF no doubt make plenty of money from the admissions and booth rentals to cover their costs associated with the Expo. The funds generated from the sale of 200 public permits should be used for actual conservation projects. I see no distinction between the funds generated from these permits and the 540 conservation permits handed out to SFW and other conservation organizations--where is there is a requirement that 90% of the funds be used for approved conservation projects.
I do not agree with your explanation that the State provided SFW 200 permits as "a way of saying thanks we appreciate what you do and we hope this will allow the groups to invest more money in Utah's wildlife." To the extent that this was some kind of quid pro quo, it is innapropriate. To the extent that the State was trying to help the groups invest more money in Utah's wildlife, what better way to accomplish that then to require that the funds be used for actual conservation.
I was not present at the RAC and Wilflife Board meetings 4 years ago when the convention permits were discussed and approved. However, I have heard from others who were present that SFW opposed any such requirement. Some have even said that SFW informally promised that a "significant amount" of the money would be used for actual conservation. It is my understanding that we just completed the fourth year of a five-year agreement regarding convention tags. I am going to make sure that I am present when the new agreement is discussed. I see no reason why the State should not require that at least 90% of the funds generated from the sale of the Expo permits be used for actual conservation. I would hope that SFW would support such an amendment. It would go a long way toward resolving the public's concerns as to how such funds are being spent. If SFW is truly focused on benefitting Utah's wildlife then it should welcome some additional controls and transparency regarding the use of funds generated from the sale of convention permits.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
someone write down this question to ask Don at the meeting. How much of the money raised by the Wealth and Expo tags are used by SFW to fund other state chapters. Are you guys being duped? You think the SFW chapter starting in AK is being funded up there by AK residents? Good question to ask, after all, it is your wildlife, you should have an answer. Once again, an open book would help, not a power point with 5 minutes of Q&A
runamuk
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,555
Some crazy things going on in Alaska.
An sfw board member is now Alaskas Director of Wildlife?????
That is sure to give the full curl society a boost.
Bet Karl and Don are still dancing around and giggling.
If i was an Alaskan i would be more worried about all the Sheep tags that are fixxin to head towards Utah..
An sfw board member is now Alaskas Director of Wildlife?????
That is sure to give the full curl society a boost.
Bet Karl and Don are still dancing around and giggling.
If i was an Alaskan i would be more worried about all the Sheep tags that are fixxin to head towards Utah..
