Sub-MOA rifles

fuzzyvelvet

fuzzyvelvet

Active Member
Messages
537
So I continue to see ads in all the hunting magazines with all these "sub-MOA" rifles. What's all the hype about? Are they that much more accurate than my Remington 700? I don't plan on shooting these crazy ranges of 700-1200 yards. If these rifles are all they are cracked up to be which brands are the best rifle for the price? Seems like from what I've seen they can be way more expensive than mine.
 
Depends what you can live with.
$650 Rem 700 SPS. Rem replaced the first barrel and it was then bedded in a new stock.
200 yards
109817.jpg


action trued, new barrel, new trigger, $800 addl
300 yards
5330300140tsx.jpg


600 yards
6629600yards.jpg
 
Wow, great shooting WapatiBob! As he said, what can you live with? I have shot sub MOA with my factory Savage. I don't do it consistently. No doubt the shooter, not the firearm. I know I can shoot accurately enough out to 400 yards to take the shot within the parameters of my ethics. There are guys on these boards that can shoot to the capacity of their custom rifles. Many of our skill levels are sub the capacity of the firearms we own.
 
WBob, truly impressive!

Fuzzy asked, "which brands are the best rifle for the price?"

One way to go that doesn't have to cost a lot of money is to treat your old 700 to a new custom barrel in a cartridge of your choosing. Tough to say though, how well does your 700 shoot?

i have a unmodified old 700 ADL in 25-06 that will consistently shoot off the shelf ammo under 3/4", usually well under. There's plenty of them out there that don't need upgrading. lol

No matter which rifle or cartridge, i'm a 4-500yd max guy on game animals myself, and tell the truth, i hope i don't ever have to shoot another animal that far! But i am VERY interested in keeping them tight and just knowing that i'm going to hit, smack dab where my cross hairs were when the gun goes off.

If nothing else, treat your old Rod to a trigger job or upgraded trigger. Might just refresh that shooter for a few more years! :)

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-15 AT 08:45AM (MST)[p]I believe that the "rifle" can shoot better than I can.

I have several calibers from different manufacturers that are MOA accurate when I do my part. So there are factory rifles that deliver without modification.

I do have one rifle that has been accurized and it does shoot sub-MOA, the confidence a hunter feels when they know a rifle is accurate is PRICELESS to me and allows me to shoot out to 400 yards (my personal limit) on any game.

I'd say to shoot those extreme distances (7-1200 yards) you should be using one of the rifle-systems, like Gun Werks or McMillan but my pockets aren't deep enough for those that run $5K+.


2f350s: Spend the money on additional licenses and HUNT more!
 
I agree with that.

I won't keep a rifle that isn't a sub MOA shooter. period. sometimes that's an out of the box garden variety rifle, most of the time it's a custom. the question is how many 2 moa shooters do you want to buy to find the good one in off the shelf rifles.

To that point, in rifle lines like Weatherby where they sort the good shooters off the line and market them as sub moa, what are your chances with a standard one? kind of takes all hope away.

Usually you get what you pay for unless you have more luck than I do.
















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
I've had pretty fair luck with factory rifle but way better luck with custom barreled rifles. But I've got a custom right now that's a pig and I'll need to re-barrel it since I want to keep that particular rifle.

Fuzzy asked if they're better than his Remington. My answer is, I have no idea since I don't know how you shoot or how your Remington shoots!!!!

Have YOU shot a TRUE sub-moa rifle to see how YOU shoot? There are sooooo many variables here that an answer is out of reach.

NO, YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND 5K TO GET A SUB-MOA RIFLE. I've never spent that and my best rigs are way under MOA. I prefer to roll-my-own rather than buy someone's "package".

Better stock for your Rem: $400
New barrel installed, blue-printed action: $600-$700+
New trigger: $200

So for $1200+/- you're well on your way to turning your Remington into a GREAT rifle that will shoot with the $6000 rifles all day long. Now, that doesn't include the scope which is of equal importance.

Zeke
 
Fact is while some factory rifles will shoot sub-MOA, they are far fewer than most guys on the internet report. A few more can be tuned with reloading to find a sweet spot, but again far less than are reported on here and the art of reloading is neither easy, convenient, or cheap. A true sub-moa rifle that can shoot most ammo sub-moa, and particularly sub-moa at longer ranges is something that takes a fair amount of work and therefore a fair price that quickly exceeds $3k/gun.

Sub-moa rifles aren't as necessary for hunting as practicing is, particularly for field situations, meaning odd angles, changes in elevation, extreme changes in temperature, odd shooting positions, and most importantly being a little excited and out of breath.

Of course I see you are asking about best gun for the money, the value proposition. Well I would say good guns are like good glass and the incremental cost of improvement is very high. A $200 pair of Bushnell's vs a $500 pair of Vortex vs a $2000 pair of Swaro/Leica's will not get you 10x the return on your money from bottom to top, but you damn sure won't get out of your $200 bino's what you get out of your $2k swaro's, but you sure can still find some game. The question is do you want to take a chance at missing out on that big one because you didn't spend the $$. If so, no problem, keep the cash.

I personally don't think rifles are near as important as bino's, or even spotters. I definitely don't think I'd spend over $1k on a rifle if I had a self imposed 400yd limit. Not if money is limited commodity in your house.

These brands all can provide a reliable and potentially accurate rifle, in somewhat of an order of price from low to high:

Savage
Tikka
Remington(most easy to improve easily and cheaply via trigger,stock,etc and are most easily worked on by gunsmith)
Browning
Weatherby
Sako

Other's will disagree but I find Winchesters, Ruger's, Marlin's, etc to all be less likely to be accurate off the shelf vs those listed above.

As other's have said, you can do the most to improve your rifle by first getting a good stock($200 B&C Medalist or better), doing a bedding job($100 by a smith), and getting a good/crisp/light(2-3lbs) trigger($100 for Timney). Next step is custom barrel for about $550 installed. These are all good quality, but only half or a third of what is considered top quality. You can see how $3000 can be easy to spend on a true custom.

So again, the place to start, is with practice.
 
This is with a Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless in 7mm Rem Mag with 168gr Berger CH. I dipped the OEM stock, had the trigger worked over, and had the BOSS cut off and the barrel re-crowned to make it shorter and lighter to carry. Other than that, it is a stock gun with a Vortex HS-LR scope.

I've always wanted a custom gun, but I don't think I could buy a gun that would shoot better than this one.

300 Yards off a bench...
3914300yds.jpg


1-Mile off a table...
1932mile.jpg


Grizzly
 
See, Winchesters won't shoot! It's only a 3/4" group at 300 yards. Hahahahahahaha.
The best shooter in a 70 classic is my 325 WSM. I was slack-jawed the first few times I shot it but not as good as grizzly's Win. Mine shoots at 100 about like his shoots at 300!!! Both plenty good for their respective applications.
Zeke
 
As stated there are far more sub moa rifles than shooters who can consistently shoot sub moa. Also many rifles will shoot sub moa at 100 yards but stretch it to 300+ and they become well over moa. I like to bed every rifle I buy before even shooting it. Also tune the trigger. This seems to usually produce a sub moa rifle in most cases with hand loads.
If you are looking to spend some money on a new rifle I'd be more inclined to buy a used rifle and rebarrel it to your liking or buy a rifle that's already been rebarreled. There are plenty for sale.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I actually shoot 5/8 inch group at 100 yards. I don't consistently keep it that tight at longer distances. I'm sure thats me more than the rifle?? But I wasn't sure what one of these long range guns would do for further shots. And maybe a new trigger and barrel work would do the trick. Thanks for the input.
 
I bought a Kimber Montana .270 a few years ago. A lot of money and it isn't sub moa. However it's very easing to pack due to its lightweight . I can shoot well to 400 yards. That's all that matters to me.
 
>Thanks for all the replies.
>I actually shoot 5/8 inch
>group at 100 yards.
>I don't consistently keep it
>that tight at longer distances.
> I'm sure thats me
>more than the rifle??
>But I wasn't sure what
>one of these long range
>guns would do for further
>shots. And maybe a
>new trigger and barrel work
>would do the trick.
>Thanks for the input.

You're concerning yourself with the accuracy of a hunting rifle that shoots 5/8" groups? Silly boy! 97.3% of the production rifles out there won't shoot groups that tight and even fewer shooters can shoot that well on even a remotely consistent basis.

Zeke
 
>My concern isn't how I shoot
>at 100 yards, its how
>I shoot at 400.

Now you know what the rifle will do, it sounds like you are asking what YOU can do at 400 yards. I have no idea what you can do but the rifle/load should be able to shoot sub MOA at 400 with proper wind conditions. Awe, there's that wind thing again! ha

The only way you'll know what happens for you at 400 is to shoot a ton at 400. .....not just one or two goods group and call it good. Practice, consistency and experience are the keys to shooting distances and we're all students, albeit at different levels.

BTW: I've learned to take internet groups with a grain of salt.

Zeke
 
After my grandpa passed away I got his Remington BDL 7 mag from 1969 or so. I didn't like his scope or mounts so I put on a new Leupold 3x9 and matching rings and base. I shot a lot of groups like these.


22507mm_mag_group_2_small_text.jpg


22507mm_mag_group_1_small_text.jpg
 
Some people just want to know that the bullet will go where they want it to. :):)
A good combination:
832224x6.jpg


All shots are off bi-pod and pack
3311008copy.jpg


304005copycopy.jpg


Bill
 
Bill,

What is your rifle set up? Are you shooting one of these high end rifles or is it a regular rifle you have had work done on the trigger, barrel, etc? Seems like most are saying that they shoot regular rifles not all these long range high priced rifles.
 
Fuzzy
That particular rifle was custom made by Travis at R. Bros. Rifles in Elma WA. My others are basically stock Rem 700's with McMillan stocks and Jewell Triggers. If they don't shoot good enough I start hand lapping the barrels and can usually get them to shoot great out to 500 yards. I had a 7mm Rem mag that shot good to 500 but I did not trust past that. I felt I had a few option to get a rifle that would shoot farther. 1) Was to take apart the 7mm, have the action trued & re-barrel,put a different McMillan stock on it, and a Nightforce scope. Problem with option one is I would be loosing a great rifle that has proven mid range accuracy and I really liked the rifle the way it was. It is 10.5 lbs field ready. 2) Purchase a used rifle to do the above to. This would cost way more than option 1 because of the addition of the used rifle, Jewell trigger, etc. 3) Have one custom made.

Being in my late 40's at the time I chose to treat myself to a custom rifle in 7mm WSM with no muzzle brake. In reality I was not much more than option #2 above and well worth it. I spent 6 months trying to figure out what I wanted and gathering parts, with a lot of help from Travis. I wanted the rifle to be under 15 lbs field ready, it is 14.5 lbs as seen in the picture. The action is a R. Bros. custom action based off the Rem 700. Travis did an excellent job on the rifle. He also test shoots all his rifles and gives you the load data and his grouping targets. I had some problems at first getting my hand loads to preform as i would like. Travis helped me out a lot with that until I got it tuned in to what it is now.

I guess it all boils down to how far you want to shoot accurately. This rifle has killed deer as close as just over 100 yards to elk a hair under 700 yards. It is easy to shoot, even my children shot it. If you want the exact specs on the rifle I will be happy to post them for you.

Bill
 
I just went thru this mind game with myself.
Thought my 700 was old and heavy and I could shoot a new one better...
Not much lighter and not as good as what I have looking at the Vanguard test targets alone I saw.
And about what I have in my old 700 & upgraded stock and Timney and mine is already dialed in closer,with factory ammo.
And just about the same weight with a scope & all.

1/2-3/4"@ 100,2" @ 200.Consistantly.
Changes have been attributed to personal performance & conditions.

Elk & deer down @ up to 400 with it.
So I have what I want.
 
I bought a weatherby vanguard series 2 in 7mm mag for $400 on sale, through on some talley steel rings for about $100 and put on a nice scope. It easiely outshoots me on factory remington corelokt 150 grain ammo. Trigger is excellent. I havent measured it but it is definitely submoa. I highly recommend the weatherby vanguard 2. I have seen marlin x7 s ($250) remington 700 s ($400 and up) and savage 110 s ($400 and up) all shoot submoa. Save your money for optics and ammo
 
>I bought a weatherby vanguard series
>2 in 7mm mag for
>$400 on sale, through on
>some talley steel rings for
>about $100 and put on
>a nice scope. It easiely
>outshoots me on factory remington
>corelokt 150 grain ammo. Trigger
>is excellent. I havent measured
>it but it is definitely
>submoa. I highly recommend the
>weatherby vanguard 2. I have
>seen marlin x7 s ($250)
>remington 700 s ($400 and
>up) and savage 110 s
>($400 and up) all shoot
>submoa. Save your money for
>optics and ammo


I agree. For most people the rifles mentioned as far more accurate than the person pulling the trigger can be in a hunting situation. Accuracy improvement from their is extremely expensive for the gain you are getting. It is sort of like when you were growing up. Mom's Rambler was fast enough but when you grew out of it and got a dodge Cuda things got even better even though you still drove the same roads under the speed limit.


One thing I will mention is that I have found good accuracy in the Weatherby rifles and cost efficiency if you don't use Roy's Calibers. I shoot 600 competition and in 10 years I have never seen any shooter with a Weatherby rifle. The Weatherby calibers shoot well but I though it must be the cost of the brass because everyone hand-loads. Roy pursued
hyper Speed Accuracy as seen by hi 100 feet per second speeds over Winchester 300 and other non-Weatherby calibers. His trait for a sharper case shoulder than everyone else was a standard trademark. The uniqueness of his calibers required the seating of the bullets low enough so that the bullet "jumps" to the lands of the barrels rifling.

Greg Merriam
Master Hunt Broker
Master Land Owner Voucher Broker
Discounted Hunts LLC
Outdoor Writers LLC
Pro-Staff Dead Down Wind Scent Products
Pro-Staff Benchmaster Shooting Accuracy Products
1204 Button Rock Drive
Longmont, Co 80504
303-776-7528 Voice
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Email: [email protected]
Web Page: http://www.discountedhunts.net
Web Page for Vouchers This is the Link to the land Owner Voucher List
http://www.discountedhunts.net/Pages/LandownerVouchers.aspx
 
>Some people just want to know
>that the bullet will go
>where they want it to.
>:):)
>A good combination:
>
832224x6.jpg

>
>All shots are off bi-pod and
>pack
>
3311008copy.jpg

>
>
304005copycopy.jpg

>
>Bill


Love that first pic. nice shooting.Love my 7wsm also but trying to sell and build a UL mountain rifle with a TI action
 
lots of impressive 3 shot groups here. I have a few of my own.

But if I really want to know how accurate my rig is I expand to 5. It makes it a lot harder to achieve coin covering results.
 
Wow! Man you guys are some impressive shots! That is awesome to see pics with those tight groups. Very cool!

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 

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